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stupid in america
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Date: January 13th, 2006 8:10 PM Author: Flushed titillating home double fault Stupid in America Why your kids are probably dumber than Belgians John Stossel
For "Stupid in America," a special report ABC will air Friday, we gave identical tests to high school students in New Jersey and in Belgium. The Belgian kids cleaned the American kids' clocks. The Belgian kids called the American students "stupid."
We didn't pick smart kids to test in Europe and dumb kids in the United States. The American students attend an above-average school in New Jersey, and New Jersey's kids have test scores that are above average for America.
The American boy who got the highest score told me: "I'm shocked, 'cause it just shows how advanced they are compared to us."
The Belgians did better because their schools are better. At age ten, American students take an international test and score well above the international average. But by age fifteen, when students from forty countries are tested, the Americans place twenty-fifth. The longer kids stay in American schools, the worse they do in international competition. They do worse than kids from countries that spend much less money on education.
This should come as no surprise once you remember that public education in the USA is a government monopoly. Don't like your public school? Tough. The school is terrible? Tough. Your taxes fund that school regardless of whether it's good or bad. That's why government monopolies routinely fail their customers. Union-dominated monopolies are even worse.
In New York City, it's "just about impossible" to fire a bad teacher, says schools chancellor Joel Klein. The new union contract offers slight relief, but it's still about 200 pages of bureaucracy. "We tolerate mediocrity," said Klein, because "people get paid the same, whether they're outstanding, average, or way below average." One teacher sent sexually oriented emails to "Cutie 101," his sixteen year old student. Klein couldn't fire him for years, "He hasn't taught, but we have had to pay him, because that's what's required under the contract."
They've paid him more than $300,000, and only after 6 years of litigation were they able to fire him. Klein employs dozens of teachers who he's afraid to let near the kids, so he has them sit in what they call "rubber rooms." This year he will spend twenty million dollars to warehouse teachers in five rubber rooms. It's an alternative to firing them. In the last four years, only two teachers out of 80,000 were fired for incompetence.
When I confronted Union president Randi Weingarten about that, she said, "they [the NYC school board] just don't want to do the work that's entailed." But the "work that's entailed" is so onerous that most principals just give up, or get bad teachers to transfer to another school. They even have a name for it: "the dance of the lemons."
The inability to fire the bad and reward the good is the biggest reason schools fail the kids. Lack of money is often cited the reason schools fail, but America doubled per pupil spending, adjusting for inflation, over the last 30 years. Test scores and graduation rates stayed flat. New York City now spends an extraordinary $11,000 per student. That's $220,000 for a classroom of twenty kids. Couldn't you hire two or three excellent teachers and do a better job with $220,000?
Only a monopoly can spend that much money and still fail the kids.
The U.S. Postal Service couldn't get it there overnight. But once others were allowed to compete, Federal Express, United Parcel, and others suddenly could get it there overnight. Now even the post office does it (sometimes). Competition inspires people to do what we didn't think we could do.
If people got to choose their kids' school, education options would be endless. There could soon be technology schools, cheap Wal-Mart-like schools, virtual schools where you learn at home on your computer, sports schools, music schools, schools that go all year, schools with uniforms, schools that open early and keep kids later, and, who knows? If there were competition, all kinds of new ideas would bloom.
This already happens overseas. In Belgium, for example, the government funds education—at any school—but if the school can't attract students, it goes out of business. Belgian school principal Kaat Vandensavel told us she works hard to impress parents. "If we don't offer them what they want for their child, they won't come to our school." She constantly improves the teaching, "You can't afford ten teachers out of 160 that don't do their work, because the clients will know, and won't come to you again."
"That's normal in Western Europe," Harvard economist Caroline Hoxby told me. "If schools don't perform well, a parent would never be trapped in that school in the same way you could be trapped in the U.S."
Last week, Florida's Supreme Court shut down "opportunity scholarships," Florida's small attempt at competition. Public money can't be spent on private schools, said the court, because the state constitution commands the funding only of "uniform, . . . high-quality" schools. But government schools are neither uniform nor high-quality, and without competition, no new teaching plan or No Child Left Behind law will get the monopoly to serve its customers well.
A Gallup Poll survey shows 76 percent of Americans are either completely or somewhat satisfied with their kids' public school, but that's only because they don't know what their kids are missing. Without competition, unlike Belgian parents, they don't know what their kids might have had.
John Stossel is an ABC News correspondent and co-anchor of 20/20. His special Stupid in America airs Friday, January 13, at 10 pm.
http://www.reason.com/hod/js011306.shtml
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Date: January 13th, 2006 8:12 PM Author: Apoplectic House Therapy Subject: Dumborats at work (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=338792&forum_id=1#4810479) |
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Date: January 13th, 2006 11:49 PM Author: Exhilarant voyeur try disputing specific points in the article (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=338792&forum_id=1#4812320) |
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Date: January 14th, 2006 6:56 AM Author: Apoplectic House Therapy Subject: I am not disputing them moron, just explaining their origin (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=338792&forum_id=1#4814212) |
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Date: January 14th, 2006 1:49 PM Author: Exhilarant voyeur at least you admit you can't dispute the article. thanks. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=338792&forum_id=1#4815189) |
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Date: January 14th, 2006 2:51 PM Author: Apoplectic House Therapy Subject: How could one dispute an article of which YOU are living proof (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=338792&forum_id=1#4815554) |
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Date: January 14th, 2006 4:20 PM Author: Exhilarant voyeur which public school did you go to again? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=338792&forum_id=1#4816081) |
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Date: January 14th, 2006 5:14 PM Author: Apoplectic House Therapy Subject: Now yr really being stooooopid (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=338792&forum_id=1#4816520) |
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Date: January 14th, 2006 6:13 PM Author: Exhilarant voyeur yeah, public education does suck (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=338792&forum_id=1#4816929) |
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Date: January 14th, 2006 11:19 AM Author: 180 mewling box office The more education you have, the more likely you are to vote DEMOCRAT (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=338792&forum_id=1#4814502) |
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Date: January 14th, 2006 11:51 AM Author: Apoplectic House Therapy Subject: Which is why the vast majority of Dumborats are undeducated The educated ones pander to the lowest common denominator, making false promises that do not pull people UP, but rather pull everyone DOWN. Dumborats can only sell the very few ideas they have to idiots. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=338792&forum_id=1#4814594) |
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Date: January 14th, 2006 11:56 AM Author: navy church building So there are only two types of Democrats, then, the manipulators and the gullible masses?
Isn't that every society, every political idea, every religion, every human grouping in the world?
Doesn't the Republican party also have a batch of crafty planners that think up ways of winning over the masses (repetitive references to 9-11, claiming that certain domestic policies of theirs will "combat terrorism," relying on fear and religious tradition to keep hold over a large voter base)? |
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Date: January 14th, 2006 2:54 PM Author: Apoplectic House Therapy Subject: Pretty much yes, there are two type of Dumborats The ones that don't want to do anything and the ones that promise them they don't have to do anything. And yes, the GOP has some exceptionally crafty planners, they have to fight an overwhelming majority of derelicts. The religous right is a very small part of the GOP and is generally not well thought of, despite the depiction made by the press. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=338792&forum_id=1#4815565) |
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Date: January 14th, 2006 12:42 PM Author: 180 mewling box office The vast majority of Republicans are uneducated, as well. And as Pudsmack (if that is him) points out, the Republican party panders just as much to the uneducated masses as the Democrats.
Seeing as I am not a Democrat, criticizing the "ideas" of Democrats (or your interpretation of them) doesn't insult me, it just makes you look stupid. It is a fact- the more formal education you have, the more likely you are to vote Democrat. Unless formal education is somehow inversely proportional to intelligence, you don't have a point. |
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Date: January 14th, 2006 2:55 PM Author: Apoplectic House Therapy Subject: Many Republicans may be uneducated, however, the difference is that they are willing to rely on themselves and work as opposed to taking the fruits of others toil. BTW it was YOU that tried to equate political preference with education, so I guess you just killed yr own theory. Not unusual that a dumborat should be caught speaking out of both sides of his mouth, simultaneously. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=338792&forum_id=1#4815577) |
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Date: January 14th, 2006 4:16 PM Author: navy church building I think SPE (if that is him) was following this line:
You said that the display of low intelligence above was Democrats at work; SPE said that Democrats don't have a monopoly on low intelligence and that in fact the higher one's formal education, the more likely one is to vote Democrat; unless formal education has no affect at all on one's intelligence (the sort we're discussing here, as displayed as being lacking in some Americans by the article above), you have to concede the correlation between political outlook and education level.
It seems you did in fact concede the correlation, saying in effect "well at least the Republicans work hard." |
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Date: January 14th, 2006 5:17 PM Author: Apoplectic House Therapy Subject: It is SPE The dominant difference between the Dumborats and the GOP is that the Dumborats get their constituence from the Urban areas and the GOP from the country with the burbs as the battle ground. Now of course, one must genarize in macro discussion, but in general the urban dwellers are the lowest of the low on the education totem pole. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=338792&forum_id=1#4816536) |
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Date: January 14th, 2006 6:53 PM Author: navy church building Where are you getting this belief that rural area dwellers are more intelligent than city-dwellers? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=338792&forum_id=1#4817205) |
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Date: January 14th, 2006 7:05 PM Author: Apoplectic House Therapy Subject: We are speaking in general terms So of course there are exceptions; however, when it comes to academically related subjects, Urban dwellers don't even graduate from HS. Call me a bigot, but that has been my experience. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=338792&forum_id=1#4817339) |
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Date: January 14th, 2006 7:08 PM Author: navy church building So, tell me if this is right:
Rural dwellers typically vote Republican. Urban dwellers typically vote Democrat.
Rural dwellers are more intelligent than Urban dwellers. Urban dwellers do not have many years of schooling, but rurual dwellers do.
Hence, Republians have a larger number of intelligent supporters than do Democrats. |
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Date: January 14th, 2006 7:13 PM Author: Apoplectic House Therapy Subject: That is roughly correct; in addition philosophically GOPers are more apt to be self reliant, whereas, dumborats are more apt to want a handout. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=338792&forum_id=1#4817407) |
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Date: January 14th, 2006 7:20 PM Author: navy church building I thought that by outlining your argument the strange and unfounded logical leaps and conclusions would be obvious, but I guess they're not as clear as I thought they were.
You're right, though, I don't see a problem with giving people "handouts" if they need them. The automatic argument is that this makes people lazy and prevents them from working, but ask yourself this: has the alternative---not adhereing to "each to give according to ability and to receive according to his needs"---solved the problems? Is homelessness not still prevalent? Aren't some people still withotu health insurance, etc.? |
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Date: January 14th, 2006 7:31 PM Author: Apoplectic House Therapy Subject: Health insurance is a prime example of the big lie Virtually no one goes without the coverage they need. Many people may not have corporate sponsered health insurance, however, they DO have Medicaid. It is against the law in all 50 states to turn away ER patients; there are thousands of free clinics; Many Doctors and hospitals provide services on a pro bono basis. Fact is, many people opt out of health insurance becuase they do not want to pay for it, they would rather upgrade their car or their TV or their stereo, whatever. The reason health care is so damn expensive (aside from the Pharmacutical companies - a whole other discussion) is because the so called *haves* pay the bill for the so called *have nots*. ANd we have not even discussed all the illegal border crossings made to acquire Medical care at American tax payer expense. Homelessness is NOT prevelant in the USA, at least not when compared to any other country in the world. In fact homeownership is one of the major distinctions between the USA and everyone else AND today as we speak More people of every social strata, color, creed, etc own in the USA than ever in our history. |
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Date: January 15th, 2006 1:54 PM Author: Arousing Lemon Native Incel Subject: Incorrect Look at the exit polls in the last election. It's more of a bell curve--the most Democrat-leaning educational constituencies were high school dropouts and PhD's, with the most Republican-leaning constituencies being College graduates and dropouts. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=338792&forum_id=1#4823150) |
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Date: January 13th, 2006 8:15 PM Author: talented gunner liquid oxygen yet america still has the best universities, and still rock international physics/math/chem/bio olympiad competitions. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=338792&forum_id=1#4810507) |
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Date: January 13th, 2006 8:28 PM Author: Flushed titillating home double fault probably because the american education system is not as homogenous and uniform in quality as some of those judges that struck down competition in florida public schools might suppose. it's like the tip of the iceberg is the top 50 universities and a handful of top public schools and elite private schools, and most of the system is submerged in a sea of failure and disarray, pulling the average enough to eclipse the pinnacles of america's education system to only place it as a whole at about the median internationally. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=338792&forum_id=1#4810692) |
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Date: January 13th, 2006 9:01 PM Author: Jet-lagged piazza toaster And yet how many Americans get to go to college? You need an educated populace for democracy: otherwise it's too easily hijacked by those who know how to manipulate people's fears and emotions (hm, I wonder if we've seen that lately). (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=338792&forum_id=1#4810964) |
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Date: January 13th, 2006 9:53 PM Author: Ivory idea he suggested market too many Americans go to college; in most countries, high school is enough education to make a person relatively competent (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=338792&forum_id=1#4811354) |
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Date: January 13th, 2006 11:39 PM Author: Jet-lagged piazza toaster You're supporting my point. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=338792&forum_id=1#4812247) |
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Date: January 13th, 2006 9:15 PM Author: chestnut stirring shrine Hoxby! Hoxby! (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=338792&forum_id=1#4811083) |
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Date: January 14th, 2006 8:55 AM Author: Rusted dingle berry ox!ox!
xo!xo! |
Date: January 13th, 2006 8:37 PM Author: Swollen disgusting den dog poop This annoys me so much. Even socialist countries can enjoy competition, and somehow we can't. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=338792&forum_id=1#4810771) |
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Date: January 14th, 2006 6:57 AM Author: Apoplectic House Therapy Subject: You may thank the NEA and their dumborat patrons (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=338792&forum_id=1#4814213) |
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Date: January 13th, 2006 8:49 PM Author: disrespectful green gaming laptop center What were the scores? How many kids took it? Median? Mean? Highest, lowest, quartiles? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=338792&forum_id=1#4810879) |
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Date: January 13th, 2006 10:09 PM Author: disrespectful green gaming laptop center about 20 kids took it. 76% in Belgium. 46% in New Jersey.
"what are the bill of right?" "What was a main reason for the civil war?"
ridiculous. I knew how bad my public school was once I came to college. |
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Date: January 13th, 2006 9:00 PM Author: Jet-lagged piazza toaster USA! USA! (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=338792&forum_id=1#4810954) |
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Date: January 13th, 2006 11:23 PM Author: Rusted dingle berry Dismantle the teacher unions. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=338792&forum_id=1#4812104) |
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Date: January 13th, 2006 11:24 PM Author: Ivory idea he suggested market And kill all the gay black French Muslims who graduated from TCNJ, then world will be free! (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=338792&forum_id=1#4812115) |
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Date: January 13th, 2006 11:25 PM Author: Rusted dingle berry Follow your visions. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=338792&forum_id=1#4812124) |
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Date: January 13th, 2006 11:26 PM Author: hairraiser really tough guy kitty cat god, yet another example of why i hate unions. did you watch the special?
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Date: January 13th, 2006 11:27 PM Author: Rusted dingle berry No, but I already know this. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=338792&forum_id=1#4812143) |
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Date: January 13th, 2006 11:28 PM Author: hairraiser really tough guy kitty cat you should have seen the show. what do you think of stossel? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=338792&forum_id=1#4812150) |
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Date: January 13th, 2006 11:28 PM Author: Rusted dingle berry I used to love his spots when I watched 20/20 oh so long ago. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=338792&forum_id=1#4812157) |
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Date: January 13th, 2006 11:31 PM Author: hairraiser really tough guy kitty cat they showed a clip from a great one where he went to a restaurant in the soviet union and had to wait several hours to be served. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=338792&forum_id=1#4812180) |
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Date: January 13th, 2006 11:32 PM Author: disrespectful green gaming laptop center "give me a break" (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=338792&forum_id=1#4812186) |
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Date: January 13th, 2006 11:31 PM Author: histrionic azure crotch stossel's the man. he had a great segment once on outsourcing, where he seriously pwned that protectionist lou doubbs. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=338792&forum_id=1#4812178) |
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Date: January 13th, 2006 11:32 PM Author: Rusted dingle berry He used to have a big problem with stuttering. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=338792&forum_id=1#4812183) |
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Date: January 13th, 2006 11:32 PM Author: histrionic azure crotch stossel or dobbs? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=338792&forum_id=1#4812189) |
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Date: January 13th, 2006 11:33 PM Author: Rusted dingle berry stossel (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=338792&forum_id=1#4812199) |
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Date: January 14th, 2006 4:15 AM Author: Bespoke public bath What'd the show say about teachers unions? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=338792&forum_id=1#4813968) |
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Date: January 14th, 2006 11:46 AM Author: Apoplectic House Therapy Subject: That the pols are scared shitless of them and that they are the origin of the problem (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=338792&forum_id=1#4814570) |
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Date: January 13th, 2006 11:28 PM Author: disrespectful green gaming laptop center it was good. i totally agree. He brings a good case it's tough not to agree. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=338792&forum_id=1#4812151) |
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Date: January 13th, 2006 11:30 PM Author: hairraiser really tough guy kitty cat yea. i found it really interesting that some of our more socialist peer nations have much more incentive-based education systems, while the US, with its free market economy, operates a socialist educational paradise. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=338792&forum_id=1#4812171) |
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Date: January 13th, 2006 11:31 PM Author: Rusted dingle berry Break the unions. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=338792&forum_id=1#4812176) |
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Date: January 13th, 2006 11:31 PM Author: disrespectful green gaming laptop center Are you against all unions? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=338792&forum_id=1#4812182) |
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Date: January 13th, 2006 11:32 PM Author: Rusted dingle berry They were necessary at one time. That time has gone. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=338792&forum_id=1#4812197) |
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Date: January 14th, 2006 3:52 PM Author: disrespectful green gaming laptop center they do more than pay like family medical leave and make sure bosses don't favor certain employees. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=338792&forum_id=1#4815901) |
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Date: January 14th, 2006 7:36 PM Author: Rusted dingle berry Not nearly enough. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=338792&forum_id=1#4817598) |
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Date: January 13th, 2006 11:34 PM Author: hairraiser really tough guy kitty cat word. god, i hate that socialist bullshit. it's ridiculous how they can mobilize and have their school districts in chokeholds....they'd defend their mediocrity 'til the end of time... (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=338792&forum_id=1#4812202) |
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Date: January 14th, 2006 11:47 AM Author: Apoplectic House Therapy Subject: ESPECIALLY the NEA - worst union in America Serves NO purpose but to enrich Management and hold back education (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=338792&forum_id=1#4814575) |
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Date: January 14th, 2006 12:37 PM Author: Rusted dingle berry indeed (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=338792&forum_id=1#4814816) |
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Date: January 13th, 2006 11:27 PM Author: disrespectful green gaming laptop center I went to a charter school in junior high and it was infinitely better than public school. My public school had a graduation rate of 50%. I ended up going to public school for sports. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=338792&forum_id=1#4812141) |
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Date: January 13th, 2006 11:34 PM Author: Rusted dingle berry There's a lot of education-related threads around here. You would have thought I would have bookmarked them. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=338792&forum_id=1#4812209) |
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Date: January 14th, 2006 4:09 AM Author: Bespoke public bath You should do this considered you started many of them. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=338792&forum_id=1#4813944) |
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Date: January 14th, 2006 3:34 AM Author: navy church building World's richest country can't educate its people.
Really think about that. |
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Date: January 14th, 2006 4:04 AM Author: hairraiser really tough guy kitty cat hi, boombjoe! (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=338792&forum_id=1#4813924) |
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Date: January 14th, 2006 4:12 AM Author: Bespoke public bath The United States is obsessed with the fact that some students achieve at higher levels. When it's accepted that not all students learn at the same level, then programs could focus on helping top students reach their potential and be more comparable to top students from other countries. Policy analysts don't like to accept that people of different racial and socioeconomic backrounds have different intelligence levels. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=338792&forum_id=1#4813957) |
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Date: January 14th, 2006 4:44 AM Author: Mahogany heady school cafeteria coffee pot I wonder why our (collleges and) universities are best in the world. Yet, our public high school system sucks. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=338792&forum_id=1#4814036) |
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Date: January 14th, 2006 5:17 AM Author: Bespoke public bath If students from other countries stayed in their own country for graduate school rather than coming to the United States, they would be able to have stronger universities elsewhere. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=338792&forum_id=1#4814073) |
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Date: January 14th, 2006 11:48 AM Author: Apoplectic House Therapy Subject: That does not follow and is demonstrably untrue (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=338792&forum_id=1#4814579) |
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Date: January 14th, 2006 11:49 AM Author: navy church building Indeed. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=338792&forum_id=1#4814584) |
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Date: January 14th, 2006 12:28 PM Author: Cracking pearl degenerate stain I watched the 20/20 interview with the state superindendent from SC. He was so busy attacking her and throwing out anecdotes that start "in my town..." I wanted to puke. Ask her fucking questions and then let her answer and follow up if necessary, dbag. It's not a forum for you to talk, it's her interview, her stage. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=338792&forum_id=1#4814773) |
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Date: January 14th, 2006 12:44 PM Author: Rusted dingle berry SC is a toilet (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=338792&forum_id=1#4814843) |
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Date: January 15th, 2006 1:56 PM Author: Arousing Lemon Native Incel South Cackalacky. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=338792&forum_id=1#4823162) |
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Date: January 14th, 2006 4:24 PM Author: aromatic talking deer antler why do they always interview [academic] economists when it comes to educational issues, and not people who are academics in the field of education? hmm.... (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=338792&forum_id=1#4816102) |
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Date: January 14th, 2006 4:30 PM Author: disrespectful green gaming laptop center because academics are dummies. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=338792&forum_id=1#4816143) |
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Date: January 14th, 2006 4:34 PM Author: aromatic talking deer antler see below... (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=338792&forum_id=1#4816170) |
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Date: January 14th, 2006 4:31 PM Author: hairraiser really tough guy kitty cat because the academics are lefties who are marching in lock step with the socialist monopoly of a system that we have now. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=338792&forum_id=1#4816148) |
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Date: January 14th, 2006 4:33 PM Author: aromatic talking deer antler ahh i didnt write what i meant. i meant to ask: why academics that are economists over academics that are in education...? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=338792&forum_id=1#4816166) |
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Date: January 14th, 2006 4:35 PM Author: hairraiser really tough guy kitty cat because of what i said. stossel's assertion was that a "free market" in education would produce better results...something the educational "establishment" would not agree with. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=338792&forum_id=1#4816183) |
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Date: January 14th, 2006 4:43 PM Author: aromatic talking deer antler i see what you mean.
but in the article he just used the economist for background/explanation, not really so much as someone to directly support his point (with a bluntly stated opinion or research...).
anyway, i was just using this article to point out a greater trend i see in articles that cover education... |
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Date: January 14th, 2006 4:32 PM Author: histrionic azure crotch you can apply economic reasoning a whole host of issues, and the sort of reasoning/methods that they use are likely to be more rigorous than the sort used in other social sciences. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=338792&forum_id=1#4816153) |
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Date: January 14th, 2006 4:33 PM Author: navy church building Rigorous how?
Rigorous in a quantitative method, right? |
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Date: January 14th, 2006 4:35 PM Author: histrionic azure crotch yes (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=338792&forum_id=1#4816185) |
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Date: January 14th, 2006 4:37 PM Author: navy church building Well then think about that. How does that relate to the framework used to treat the educational problem in America? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=338792&forum_id=1#4816200) |
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Date: January 14th, 2006 6:23 PM Author: histrionic azure crotch economics is quantitatively rigororous because it is used to study incentives across all different kinds of social issues, and lessons from the manner in which incentives are used/studied in other areas studied by economists are very applicable to the problems faced by schools. education academics can surely say a lot about the issue, but it's not surprising that economists (especially those who specialize in the economics of education, school choice, etc) are often consulted. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=338792&forum_id=1#4816978) |
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Date: January 14th, 2006 6:50 PM Author: navy church building Oh brother, for a self-proclaimed 'deep thinker' you're not grasping the broader issue at play here. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=338792&forum_id=1#4817181) |
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Date: January 14th, 2006 6:57 PM Author: histrionic azure crotch oh well (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=338792&forum_id=1#4817233) |
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Date: January 14th, 2006 4:39 PM Author: aromatic talking deer antler i agree that economics applies to a whole range of social issues, and certainly education is one of them.
but this article didn't -need- to consult an economist who does research on education, since the person interviewed was someone who was just giving perspective in comparing the american/western european systems.
maybe in this particular case, she was someone who had done a lot of research on the topic*, but i've noticed in a lot of education articles i read, academic economists are almost always interviewed before academics in education (educationalists? =)) for secondary/higher education issues. i've also noticed that psychologists (or academic psychologists) are interviewed more often than education academics for elementary/middle school issues.
(im basically referring to this: "That's normal in Western Europe," Harvard economist Caroline Hoxby told me. "If schools don't perform well, a parent would never be trapped in that school in the same way you could be trapped in the U.S.")
*edit: she has done a lot of research on the topic: --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Professor Caroline M. Hoxby Ph.D. MIT Primary fields of interest: Labor economics, public economics, economics of education. Research Topics: The market for higher education, school finance, school choice, teachers' unions, human capital investments and income inequality and income growth.
(http://post.economics.harvard.edu/people/facinter.html#CMH)
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Date: January 15th, 2006 9:44 PM Author: Rusted dingle berry Educators are almost bound to blame the problem on someone else, it's a common strain of thought that runs throughout every grade/secondary school in the country. The fact is, a lot of teachers are of the lowest quality college graduates. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=338792&forum_id=1#4827404) |
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Date: January 14th, 2006 5:29 PM Author: odious thirsty library The Stupid Bitch from SC was owned. Interviewer said: "South Carolina is ranked last in SAT scores, what can you say about your education improvements?" The bitch goes on to say "SAT scores are not a good measurement of success in education." He just gives her a long look of dissapointment as if she were just as stupid as the people of the state she represents. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=338792&forum_id=1#4816639) |
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Date: January 14th, 2006 5:32 PM Author: hairraiser really tough guy kitty cat lol, yea. i liked how she was adamant about how they were on a multi year plan and the schools were, in fact, improving and performing well. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=338792&forum_id=1#4816671) |
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Date: January 14th, 2006 5:45 PM Author: odious thirsty library "But we are improving at the fastest rate!" (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=338792&forum_id=1#4816755) |
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Date: January 14th, 2006 5:48 PM Author: hairraiser really tough guy kitty cat hahahaha. i laughed out loud when stossel was like "well that's easy to do when you're starting out worst..."
i also laughed really hard when they were showing the 18 year old guy who read at a 4th grade reading level. |
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Date: January 14th, 2006 5:48 PM Author: deranged nursing home keepsake machete What type of a system does Stossel want? He alludes to the delivery service set-up, where private companies compete with the public service as if that should be the standard, but that's how the schooling system currently works. If he supports vouchers, maybe he should have concentrated on that rather than spouting meaningless bullshit. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=338792&forum_id=1#4816779) |
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Date: January 14th, 2006 6:30 PM Author: Cream Plaza Sex Offender I've been public schooled my whole life and I don't think I would've wanted it any other way. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=338792&forum_id=1#4817020) |
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Date: January 14th, 2006 6:31 PM Author: Apoplectic House Therapy Subject: Is that because you do not know any better? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=338792&forum_id=1#4817031) |
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Date: January 14th, 2006 6:36 PM Author: Cream Plaza Sex Offender I'm not sure how to answer this. But I'll give you a resounding 'no'. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=338792&forum_id=1#4817069) |
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Date: January 14th, 2006 6:49 PM Author: Apoplectic House Therapy Subject: Let's see You have no experience on one side of the question, yet yr able to offer an opinion; You admit you don't know how to answer the question; yet yr able to offer a *resounding* opinion; Let me guess - yr a product of public education? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=338792&forum_id=1#4817171) |
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Date: January 14th, 2006 7:02 PM Author: Cream Plaza Sex Offender Based on the private school kids I know, I am happy I went to public school. Maybe I'm in the minority in the way I feel, but I think I am who I am because of the type of schooling I had. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=338792&forum_id=1#4817293) |
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Date: January 14th, 2006 7:03 PM Author: navy church building No, I agree. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=338792&forum_id=1#4817306) |
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Date: January 14th, 2006 7:08 PM Author: Apoplectic House Therapy Subject: Of course you are who you are because of yr experiences Which is precisely the point; You have no basis of reference, except for a handful of aquaintences that you have met on an occasional basis. You don't have enough information to form an opinion - Perhaps, you would like yrself better if you had gone to a private school, perhaps not; but you most likely would be better educated if you had gone to a private school, which is the theme of this thread. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=338792&forum_id=1#4817364) |
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Date: January 14th, 2006 7:11 PM Author: navy church building "You have no basis of reference, except for a handful of aquaintences that you have met on an occasional basis."
Would you say the same to someone who claims that, say, rural dwellers are more educated than urban dwellers? |
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Date: January 14th, 2006 7:16 PM Author: Apoplectic House Therapy Subject: It depends on who the person is For someone who has had a limited chance to see the country yes, I prolly would; however, for one who has had the opportunity to visit every state; every major city; an most historical sites, I would have a different opinion. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=338792&forum_id=1#4817429) |
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Date: January 14th, 2006 7:21 PM Author: Flushed titillating home double fault this cant be right that rural dwellers are more educated. how can this be? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=338792&forum_id=1#4817488) |
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Date: January 14th, 2006 7:32 PM Author: Apoplectic House Therapy Subject: Ask yrself - WHO lives in the city? Generally speaking of course? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=338792&forum_id=1#4817577) |
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Date: January 15th, 2006 11:21 PM Author: impertinent base dumbocrats, duh. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=338792&forum_id=1#4828267) |
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Date: January 15th, 2006 11:18 PM Author: disrespectful green gaming laptop center You probably went to a decent public school. But you should realize not all schools are like the one you went to. Go to any of my city schools for any grade level and you'll see how stupid the kids are. It's terrible. I know dozens of teachers and they pass kids because if they don't they have them again next year.
In junior high here all you need to do is pass 1 out of 4 semesters. That is all! 3 Fs and 1 C. Congratulations you are moving on. It's ridiculous. I know kids in my senior year who couldn't even read english. How the fuck does a senior not know how to read? How do they pass classes?
My sister is a teacher (i'm a substitute, and two of my good friends are teachers) and she admits there are terrible behavior problems. Children fighting all the time. High turnover rate for teachers and principles. Bad teachers are not getting fired they are just moved to other schools. I've known several who have been moved over three times.
The public education system needs to be fixed. Sure there are some great public schools but a lot of them suck.
You should really try and look at other publics schools. They can be dramatically different. I've been to public schools, a charter school, and an elite private school. I've visited dozens of publics schools and there definitely needs to be a change. |
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Date: January 15th, 2006 11:40 AM Author: Crusty orchestra pit yeah but our colleges and universities are the best. that's really what matters, rather than primary and secondary education. How many people from Belgium long to study university in the USA compared to the number of Americans who wish to study university in Belgium??? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=338792&forum_id=1#4822433) |
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Date: January 15th, 2006 10:32 PM Author: aquamarine forum A considerable portion of kids don't go to college. This being the case, it should still be important to properly educate the masses who plan on living their lives with a high school diploma. Also, if more college-bound kids had a stronger foundation of knowledge, logically they should be more successful at whatever they do, and all of America benefits as a result. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=338792&forum_id=1#4827801) |
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Date: January 15th, 2006 11:19 PM Author: disrespectful green gaming laptop center But there is huge discrepancies between the kids who go to college and those who do not. At my high school, only 50% went to college. And out of that, 80% went to community college. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=338792&forum_id=1#4828249) |
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Date: January 15th, 2006 11:49 PM Author: navy church building He was being sarcastic. In response to all the idiots above saying "well if we suck so much how come we got the best colleges?" (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=338792&forum_id=1#4828534) |
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Date: January 16th, 2006 10:54 AM Author: Ocher Theater Stage Black Woman Your point is moot because with only 1/4 of Americans going off to college, you're saying it's okay not to properly educate the other 3/4. Based on the episode, this is the problem. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=338792&forum_id=1#4831247) |