her blog seems kinda boring though.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=331552&forum_id=2#4720655)

although honestly women wearing pro-abortion tshirts is in really poor taste. being for it is one thing. sticking a sign across oneself essentially saying "i cant wait to murder my fetus!" is quite another.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=331552&forum_id=2#4720659)

lurkers: POST something you creepy wackos!

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=331552&forum_id=2#4720685)

Basing political decisions on shallow tastes: nice. Fucktards, the other side can have them.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=331552&forum_id=2#4720726)

people do their best thinking high a lotta times.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=331552&forum_id=2#4720732)

2) The only creepy abortion t-shirts show fetuses.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=331552&forum_id=2#4720706)

yeah the chopped up fetus ones are obviously a helluva lot worse.

when i was like 9 i found a little pamphlet on our front porch. i opened it up. it had chopped up fetuses everywhere, big color pictures. not good at that age.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=331552&forum_id=2#4720712)

The sweet irony in all this is objectifying a girl who crusades against the objectification of women.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=331552&forum_id=2#4720814)

:(

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=331552&forum_id=2#4720718)

Basing political decisions on shallow tastes: nice. Fucktards, the other side can have them.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=331552&forum_id=2#4720728)

http://www.amquix.info/images/suits.jpg

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=331552&forum_id=2#4720734)

She's a really cute girl with a nice rack, and she takes care of herself.

It's amazing how a bunch of shut-in, sexually frustrated law student dudes can just bag on these girls all day when, if confronted with them in person, they would bust one in their pants and run away. Idiots.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=331552&forum_id=2#4721090)

On the tv/movie/magazine physical 1-10 scale, she is a 4.5.

Because she is at NYU, my guess is that she is 9.9 in LSAT.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=331552&forum_id=2#4721214)

Seriously, though, I've always liked women and vice versa.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=331552&forum_id=2#4723217)

# anashi Says:

January 3rd, 2006 at 8:03 pm

God, do they realize how threatening they come off? I’d seriously start carrying mace if I had these nutjobs at my college. I really wish there was a way to get men like them to understand how it feels to be violated everyday of their lives by unthinking, unfeeling males like them. That is privilege in a nutshell to have this level of apathy about how your actions and words effect other people. The internet affords these people a level of protection they wouldn’t have in the real world. If they said anything like this around me in real life you bet your ass I’d make my anger known. Fucking cowards.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=331552&forum_id=2#4726705)

http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2006/01/04/a-follow-up/

I don't particularly want to start a war with anonymous people on the internet over whether or not I'm attractive. I've laid out how I feel about it over at my place. If you'd like to respond to the post on its merits, you're welcome to. But abusive comments will be deleted, as will any comments that don't use a valid email address. And if you're an NYU Law student, I'd love to know it.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=331552&forum_id=2#4729600)

right?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=331552&forum_id=2#4729632)

hth.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=331552&forum_id=2#4729661)

i think you're really blowing this out of proportion. no one seriously thinks you're ugly, attacking people's looks is a rite of passage around here that shouldn't be taken seriously.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=331552&forum_id=2#4729639)

Posted by Jill @ 1:05 am

to yesterday’s very short post on the discussion board about how I’m hideous and a fat ugly pig. And it’s a long one, and I’m on a lot of painkillers, so please excuse typos or anything that just doesn’t make sense. I was a little bit in shock, and a little bit upset, when I first read the message board, so I didn’t really get into why I even posted it or why it bothered me so much. And I do appreciate all the comments, but the point of the post wasn’t to say, “Please tell me I’m pretty!” Zuzu really summed it up when she wrote, “These guys are obviously assholes, but it bothers me that being called fat and/or hideous provokes such a strong, “But you’re not fat! You’re not ugly!” response. I could just be feeling marginalized by the idea that being fat is the worst thing a woman could be called. ”

One problem is that lot of women feel that being fat is the worst thing that they could be called, and there are a million sexist social reasons for that which I would love to get into now, but which I think we’re mostly aware of. I’m not one of those women, and “you’re fat” isn’t the worst thing you can say to me, but I might as well be completely honest and admit that it’s probably in the top 100. Being called fat and ugly by strangers was a bit of a blow, and did upset me. And that’s fucked up for a whole set of other reasons that I’m not getting in to here.

But honestly, I can deal with being called fat and ugly. Am I fat? Am I ugly? Eh, I don’t know. Some days, sure, I think so. Some days I think I’m hot shit. There will be people out there who think so, and people out there who don’t — so what? But if I am, does it make anything I said any less valid? The bigger issue here is that what I am is beside the point. What insults like that do is they attack all women everywhere. They let us know that if we don’t fit a certain standard, we don’t deserve to have our ideas addressed on their merits. And on top of that, the standard is fluid. There isn’t a standard. There are different standards for each situation, for each person doing the evaluating. We’re dealing with individual opinions, and while we can certainly make the argument that there is such a thing as “conventional beauty,” when you hold up any woman to an audience of strangers and ask them in bad faith to evaluate her looks, it doesn’t matter how attractive she is — she will be torn apart. The first thing I thought of when reading that thread (well, the first thing I thought of after I picked my jaw up off the table at the shock of what total assholes these people can be) was the way women in sexaul harassment cases are treated. I don’t have anything to link to now, and I’m a little drugged too up on painkillers to get the energy to do a decent search (widsom teeth came out this morning), but what a lot of those cases come down to is, “why would he sexually harass her?” You hear the same with rape cases, particularly when the alleged rapist is attractive or successful — “Why would he rape her? He can get sex from much more beautiful women” or “Why would he rape her? He has such a beautiful wife at home.” On the other hand, being too pretty isn’t much of a help, either. Because then she must have enticed him, or her looks or clothing must have been sending him messages. When you’re held up to be evaluated on your physical or sexual attractiveness, it’s a lot more fun for people to find flaws and shoot you down than not. When you’re held up to a subjective physical standard, to people who have no personal investment in you as a person, you cannot win.

I see this in the blogosphere all the time, here and elsewhere (although I tend to think that our commenters are overwhelmingly polite and thoughtful, and don’t fall into this trap nearly as often as I see it elsewhere). If it’s agreed that Lauren and I are pretty, then we run the risk of being labeled bimbos, or Ginger and Maryanne. If we’re ugly, then we’re only feminists because we can’t get men. I do think that the fact that neither Lauren nor I would be considered ugly by most people (message boards aside), and that we’ve both been in long-term relationships with men does give us a bit of a privilege in the feminist blogging world, because it takes those arguments away from our opponents. I know we’ve both gotten the “you’re a hairy ugly lesbian feminist” thing, but it hasn’t been in response to pictures, or to what we actually look like. And indeed, the defense to these accusations has typically followed along the lines of, “But Jill and Lauren aren’t ugly” or “But Jill and Lauren have had serious boyfriends so they can’t be man-haters.” It’s fair, I think, when the argument against you is premised on your physical appearance or your sexuality or life decisions to respond by defending yourself. But I’m not sure it’s helpful.

So a little background about this board. It came to my attention this summer, with the Miss NYU calendar flare-up that I wrote about here. Apparently someone on the thread thought was I was involved with the effort to shut down the calendar — I wasn’t, I was in Italy when the whole thing was happening, and I had no association with the anti-calendar group (and for the record, as far as I know, no one wanted to “shut down” the calendar). The only thing I did was write a blog post about it, and have a short conversation with the woman who was heading up the effort to simply get people talking about the issues the calendar raised. After that, I didn’t read the board again until a couple months into school, when a kid who I went to undergrad with and who also goes to NYU mentioned that a message board he read had repeated references to me. So he sent me a link, and then I went through the board myself, and found a bunch of different threads where my name came up. It was generally harmless, if a little creepy — stuff like “Jill F is my future wife” and “Any Jill F sightings yet?” It seemed to come primarily from one poster. So I ignored it for a while again, until someone else mentioned it to me. So I went back and read it, and saw that it was getting weirder and grosser — there were mentions of “tag teaming” me, people who said they saw me around school and I was nothing special, comments that I was a feminist bitch and assorted other names, and finally one saying that he “would hate-fuck that cunt.” That put me a little over the edge, and I skipped a day or two of school and started studying at home for about a week, just so I wouldn’t have to walk around campus. I know it sounds crazy (and I definitely felt crazy), but everywhere I went at school I felt like people were looking at me, and like they were evaluating me — like they must have been thinking, “Oh, she isn’t pretty at all” or “Those guys on the board were totally wrong” or “She’s fat” or “I’d fuck her” or, the worst, that they were the people doing the posting, and they were going to go home and write about how they saw me and I was indeed ugly, or I was fuckable, or I was a bitch. It wasn’t so much negative comments that got to me — it was the evaluation of something that I have no control over, in a space where I’m not putting myself out to be evaluated. Nothing I can do is going to change their opinion of whether or not I’m attractive, and I don’t really care all that much if they think I am or not. But I do care when I feel like I can’t walk to class without people looking at me and then anonymously posting their thoughts online, and when they aren’t taking on what I say or what I believe, but what I look like — and when I’m being put in a position where I can’t fight back. If they say, “You’re wrong about feminism,” I can say, “No I’m not” and I can explain why. But if they say, “You’re ugly,” I can’t really say, “No I’m not.” It’s a feeling of powerlessless, and it’s a position that I’m not used to being placed in.

I’m a fairly self-confident person. I don’t usually feel like I’m being evaluated on my looks. I don’t generally assume that people are looking at me any more than they’re looking at anyone else. But for the last two months of school, I was absolutely neurotic, glaring at anyone I didn’t know who made eye contact with me, and doing my best to not let myself check that stupid board to see what they were saying. (It’s worth mentioning that my name wasn’t coming up constantly, just maybe in 10 threads — but enough where every two weeks or so, someone would mention something). I talked to someone about it, and he suggested that I talk to the dean of students. I didn’t, because I didn’t want to make a bigger deal of it than I had to. I was hoping that if I ignored it, they would get bored and it would go away. Finally I just figured, there’s nothing I can do about these people. Most of them probably don’t go to NYU. If they want to sit around on a message board and talk about me, then that’s their business.

But it’s not going away. The reason I found the thread that I posted last night is because someone put it on my friend Julie’s Facebook wall (for those who don’t know, Facebook is the college version of My Space or Friendster — it connects you with people at your school and others, and you can post pictures and leave messages). I realize that with this blog, I put myself out there for criticism, and I think Lauren and I have both demonstrated that we can and do take it. But like Lauren said in the comments to the last post, we don’t put out pictures up as some proof that we’re attractive, or to make people take us more seriously, or because we’re saying that looking a certain way makes our opinions more valuable. We put our pictures up, like Lauren said, to put a face to our writing. I feel like there’s a community here — I know about what a lot of the commenters do for a living, what you care about, where you go to school. You know about Lauren’s son and her cats and her garden and her students, and my dog and my school and other details of my life. That’s a big part of why I like this blog, because it does feel personal, and because I feel like Lauren and I present ourselves as human beings with families and pets and lives, not just opinions and ideals (although we obviously have those too). But we don’t share that information, or the pictures, so that they can be used against us. And I’m not going to school, as a student and as a person who has done nothing at NYU Law to distinguish myself from anyone else going there, to have my fellow students go online and evaluate my appearance.

Ignoring it isn’t working, so I’ve brought it here where I can respond in my space, with my rules. If they think that I’m a feminist bitch or an idiot or a fat cow, that’s fine — they can grow some balls (or some ovaries, but I suspsect most of them are men) and come here. To quote Ms. Lauren again,

If anyone is still unclear on this, and yes I’m speaking to those of you who have tried to comment with more of the same, your comments on this blog (except for the NYU calendar — you had your chances, sorry) are welcome providing they are on topic and providing that you attempt to address the topic in an adult manner. See the comment policy above this string of comments if this eludes you. Bonus points offered to those who are brave enough to use real names and/or email accounts, especially if you choose to comment on Jill in alternative forums. At least give her the option of looking out for your sorry asses as she goes about her day.

Lauren sums up, more eloquently, what I’m trying to get out of posting stuff like this — it’s not an ego boost. The fact is that it feels threatening to know that people I go to school with are reading this board and posting on it. It’s gross, it’s cowardly, and it’s intentionally hurtful. It shows a remarkable amount of cruelty toward a person that, as far as I know, they’ve never met. It’s also representative of the stuff that a lot of other women get a whole lot worse. And I was just pissed off and wanted to call these assholes out on their shit.

So that’s that. Sorry it got so long. Just wanted to clarify why that post even went up in the first place. And to say thanks for how kind everyone has been, and the thoughtful comments and posts in response, like this one from Hugo. Now it’s time for another percoset. And perhaps another post, of something more fun. Like dog pictures.

This entry was posted on Wednesday, January 4th, 2006 at 1:05 am and is filed under Feminism, Vanity, Law School, Beauty. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response, or trackback from your own site.

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10 Responses to “A Follow-Up”

1. anashi Says:

January 4th, 2006 at 1:41 am

I’m so sorry this happened to you. You have been and continue to be fiercley brave by just being you and sharing that with us. Thank you.

2. Chris Clarke Says:

January 4th, 2006 at 1:53 am

Jill, you’re my hero. Keep in mind what Becky told me when I started getting hate mail from VDare racist types: it means you’re doing good work.

3. Jeanne Says:

January 4th, 2006 at 2:02 am

It’s so pathetic that these people are wasting valuable chunks of their life like this. This is what their life is about-judgment and hate? They are so confident, as long as they can pass judgment in the security of anonymity. This is a cry for help. They clearly need therapy. Life is so short, boys. It’s way past time to grow up. If you’re going to be hateful, at least be able to own up to your behavior.

I hope you feel better soon, Jill. Those wisdom teeth extractions are painful. If memory serves, (it’s been a long time since I had mine removed), the first day is horrible, the next day is better and the pain drops off significantly after that.

4. Robert Says:

January 4th, 2006 at 2:19 am

Actually, this is classic sexual harassment - an attempt to create a hostile environment in which you cannot function. You have a very strong case, from my non-lawyer perspective. Sue the fuckers into oblivion.

5. anashi Says:

January 4th, 2006 at 2:21 am

I agree with Robert *omg I agreed with Robert, breath*

6. Lux Fiat Says:

January 4th, 2006 at 2:25 am

It is weird as hell to feel like you’re in the panopticon. Which, of course, is the whole point of the panopticon. You’re being watched! Be careful!

The important part, to my mind, is that the observers don’t have two brain cells to rub together. They watch. They note. And this is the best they can do with it.

I dunno. I’m familiar with the desire to isolate oneself from all that watching and shit, and I don’t even have a blog anymore. It ain’t easy being a public feminist, even these days, which is probably why this weblog is as valuable as it is. You guys, along with your feminist-blogging cohort, do in fact provide an extremely valuable service to the rest of us who would otherwise ourselves feel isolated. And for it, you get unfair amounts of shit.

I’d like to say we’re all in this together, but I’m not risking a damn thing. You guys are out front (again, along with the rest of the public feminists). Thanks. That’s all, I guess. Thanks.

7. ilyka Says:

January 4th, 2006 at 2:56 am

Ditto everything Lux said, and I also agree with Robert.

And I think I owe you an apology–given that your initial post produced as much quality discussion as it did, I retract my recommendation that you pull it. I didn’t realize at the time how LONG this had been going on or how vile it had been getting.

“Hate-fuck?” Lord, just let me get my hands on that wanker. I’ll show him hate.

8. Auguste Says:

January 4th, 2006 at 3:11 am

Those wisdom teeth extractions are painful.

I assume you’re talking about Jill’s, but if by chance you’re referring to some sort of stealth retribution mission against Dooderino and those other cobags, let me know and I’ll bring along my pliers, my weed-whacker, and my completely empty bottle of novocaine.

9. The Countess Says:

January 4th, 2006 at 3:17 am

Jill, if it gets worse, you might want to report it to the Dean of Students anyway, just so you have a written record of what’s going on at the college. It’s unsettling that people who know you or are aware of you are watching you on campus, and later saying ugly things about you on that board.

10. Lauren Says:

January 4th, 2006 at 3:22 am

A note: several tried to comment on the previous post but parroted their earlier comments and did not choose to use valid email accounts. I decided to moderate those commenters and those are the people that I address in the excerpt.

By the way, “hate fuck” is an oh-so-amusing-and-clever way of saying “rape.” I would report that to whomever. Start a paper trail.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=331552&forum_id=2#4729650)

I seem to recall that earl thought jill was cute.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=331552&forum_id=2#4729696)

actually, the dean is probably a feminist with a nutsack dying to kick out males.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=331552&forum_id=2#4729699)

If you're insecure about your looks, this is not the place to get reassurance.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=331552&forum_id=2#4729869)

What 155 had to add to her blog

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=331552&forum_id=2#4729713)

January 4th, 2006 at 4:23 am

Exactly what anashi says.

a) It’s Jill F, not Jill H.

b) “or you can grow some ovaries and come HERE. this board has been respectful to outsiders.” Already did, although it was probably a mistake.

c) “be careful what you write on here, you’ll get reported to the nyu dean of students for sexual harassment!!!” I wrote that I didn’t report it. Reading comprehension, friends.

d) “when you’re a journalism and politics major with a minor in gender and sexuality studies, you excel in (a) making stories out of thin air, as well as (b) comparing everything to the ongoing gender war” Please, show me what I made up. Because I can link to every post that talks about me, and it’s ugly.

e) “it amazes me that people take anything that comes from this board seriously. plus, since when is it harassment to talk shit about someone, when its not directly to them?” Ok, I think we can all assume that you aren’t in law school.

f) “Either she lurks or someone who knows her showed it to her.” Multiple people showed it to me. After that, I read it on my own maybe three or four times. People who sit near me in class mentioned that they knew who I was before they met me, because of this board. A friend’s cousin asked me if NYU Law was full of vile people because of some of the crap he’d read on this board. You all have a lot of lurkers, and when my name comes up, they occassionally mention it to me.

g) “people assume Jill H is responsible for protest of a calendar. people post her facebook pictures. she blogs that it is comparable to sexual harassment and rape.” That is not what I said at all. I hope you read your case books more thoroughly than you read blogs.

and… done.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=331552&forum_id=2#4729764)

'oh yeah! i'll sue you!'

what douches

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=331552&forum_id=2#4729820)

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=331552&forum_id=2#4729894)

please explain briefly.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=331552&forum_id=2#4729910)

and personally i use other people's wireless exclusively. i dont even have my own. so no IP tracing.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=331552&forum_id=2#4729941)

http://www.xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=592614&mc=52&forum_id=2

http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/index.php/AutoAdmit

http://www.xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=599817&mc=12&forum_id=2

http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=592396&mc=58&forum_id=2

http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=290757&mc=17&forum_id=2

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/220037/autoadmit_threat_shuts_down_hastings.html

http://anonymouslawyer.blogspot.com/2007/03/reader-sent-me-link-to-washington-post.html

http://psychology-101-should-be-a-required-class-at-yale-law-school.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=607238&mc=10&forum_id=2

http://onlinereputation.googlepages.com/charityefforts

http://www.xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=197266&mc=105&forum_id=2

http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=614676&mc=10&forum_id=2

http://www.xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=592855&mc=5&forum_id=2

http://www.xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=331077

http://www.xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=617425&mc=12&forum_id=2

http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=591664&mc=9&forum_id=2

http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=591875&mc=54&forum_id=2

http://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=591875&forum_id=2&PHPSESSID=d3275a68320df53fb45fe1e232cb3b53

http://www.xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=591875&mc=55&forum_id=2

http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=617176&mc=12&forum_id=2

http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=613270&mc=1&forum_id=2

http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=613270&mc=15&forum_id=2

http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=613270&mc=12&forum_id=2

http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=617793&mc=34&forum_id=2

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=591603&forum_id=2#7995685)

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=331552&forum_id=2#8016060)

http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2006/01/04/a-follow-up#comment-26931

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=331552&forum_id=2#4730031)

That incident forever lowered my opinion of NYU.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=331552&forum_id=2#4730016)

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=331552&forum_id=2#4730121)