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Padding hours at BIGLAW
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Date: July 28th, 2012 8:52 PM Author: Olive Fiercely-loyal Boistinker First year BIGLAW, NYC. Lit. Working for a completely unreasonable partner who I am SURE pads his hours. Like, 100%. We're slammed on one particular case, and he tells us he won't add new people to the team if current team members are billing less than 250/month each. He tells us all the time that he bills 280+ every month. The thing is--having ACTUALLY BILLED 300 hours last month myself, I KNOW there is NO WAY this guy is actually billing 280.
300 hours is 10 hours a day 7 days a week. Even assuming a relatively efficient billing rate, that means working 9:30-9:30, EVERY SINGLE DAY all month long. It means no dinners with friends, no Sunday afternoon movies, no weekend trips to visit college friends. Nothing. Just work, gym (maybe) and sleep. Every day.
This partner--I'm not saying he never works, but I've also seen that he has dinner with his wife, sees his kids' softball games, stops off on the way home from business trips to see his folks, etc. Unless he never sleeps, it is physically impossible for him to be billing the kind of hours he says he is.
On the other hand, because he seems to have lied to himself long enough to believe it, he thinks if he can "bill" 280 a month, that we should do 250 no problem
There is NO WAY I can actually bill 250 a month ethically, month after month. One month, sure. Maybe even 2-3 in a row. But not 12 months a year.
I feel like I'm more or less being forced to choose between padding my hours or quitting because 250 is not doable in the long run--not honestly, at least.
Time to start looking for a new job? Or is it like this everywhere? |
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Date: July 28th, 2012 8:54 PM Author: Histrionic Hilarious Base Wrinkle srsly faggot - perhaps he works 18 hours some days
diaf you rancid, lazy faggot. not everyone is a lazy malcontent faggot.
CHOKE ON A COCK AND DIE
have a blessed day! |
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Date: July 28th, 2012 8:56 PM Author: appetizing sadistic crotch gas yourself (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2007632&forum_id=2#21201121) |
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Date: July 28th, 2012 8:57 PM Author: frozen heady orchestra pit gaming laptop i know a partner like this. he's not at the office NEARLY enough to be billing as much as he claims. pretty sure he bills 100% of his time at the office (including breaks, shits, food, etc.) and probably justifies billing some of his commute because he's thinking about cases on the trip.
but everyone pads. |
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Date: July 28th, 2012 9:06 PM Author: trip national Children's book for lawyers: everybody pads. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2007632&forum_id=2#21201200) |
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Date: July 3rd, 2020 8:47 PM Author: comical locale (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2007632&forum_id=2#40543578) |
Date: July 28th, 2012 8:58 PM Author: ivory really tough guy mother Assuming this isn't flame, start looking for another job. People here will flame you and tell you that your situation is normal for biglaw, but it's not. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2007632&forum_id=2#21201141) |
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Date: July 28th, 2012 9:06 PM Author: Overrated ungodly athletic conference preventive strike cr (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2007632&forum_id=2#21201204) |
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Date: July 28th, 2012 9:09 PM Author: frozen heady orchestra pit gaming laptop depends. if hes working for a rainmaker and close to consideration by the p-ship committee this is what he wants. if hes a 1st year working for some shit service partner, he needs to get on a new case asap (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2007632&forum_id=2#21201219) |
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Date: July 28th, 2012 9:30 PM Author: ivory really tough guy mother I don't think he's a senior. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2007632&forum_id=2#21201408) |
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Date: July 28th, 2012 9:13 PM Author: Olive Fiercely-loyal Boistinker Not flame at all. Trying to decide what to do. I am cutting expenses like crazy trying to pay off loans, but the reality is that I can't afford to leave BIGLAW for at least another 2 years. If it's not like this everywhere, then maybe I can move somewhere else, but if it's normal, then I should probably try to stick it out where I am.
I've already ramped up my billing as aggressively as I ethically can--I've starting billing .1 for the time I spend reading my overnight email in the morning before I get out of bed, another .1-.2 if I'm writing email on my Blackberry on the way into the office. But I won't just lie and I'm starting to get the feeling that's sort of what is expected of us. |
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Date: July 28th, 2012 9:15 PM Author: Overrated ungodly athletic conference preventive strike padding aside, bro, most biglaw firms simply do not expect you to the bill the kind of hours you're billing. 180/month = 2160/year and that's more than enough at most places. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2007632&forum_id=2#21201268) |
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Date: July 28th, 2012 9:32 PM Author: ivory really tough guy mother yes (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2007632&forum_id=2#21201425) |
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Date: January 28th, 2013 1:20 PM Author: Crusty nursing home it's safe to assume every op on xoxo is flame. it's really safe to assume every op from a pumo is flame. |
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Date: July 28th, 2012 9:07 PM Author: avocado pontificating principal's office Just pad, pussy. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2007632&forum_id=2#21201208) |
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Date: July 28th, 2012 9:15 PM Author: Marvelous halford (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2007632&forum_id=2#21201270) |
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Date: July 28th, 2012 9:21 PM Author: insanely creepy stirring newt 200 hours a month, I can deal, but when I go over 200, I'm hating life. I can't imagine doing 250 or more on a regular basis (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2007632&forum_id=2#21201327) |
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Date: July 28th, 2012 9:24 PM Author: Olive Fiercely-loyal Boistinker We were slow when I started (November). So I billed probably 130-160 November-Feb. Dept started getting busy around March. My totals for March-July are 200, 230, 260, 300, 280.
The month I billed 230 was the month the partner said he wouldn't add people to the team unless everyone was billing 250 and the work still wasn't getting done.
The guy in the office next to me billed 200 last month and was added to a new case this month. Also, because of the shitty economy circa 2010 (when we were hiring for fall 2012), we only have 5 new associates beginning this fall, and as far as I know the firm isn't trying to hire any laterals. |
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Date: July 28th, 2012 9:32 PM Author: frozen heady orchestra pit gaming laptop this sounds shitty. sounds like quinn actually until you said you were only hiring 5 new associates.
if you're in a half decent firm they'll let you take a nice fat monthlong vacation if you're way over. even juniors i know have taken a month off after a case settles because they racked up like 600 in two months. |
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Date: July 28th, 2012 9:44 PM Author: Olive Fiercely-loyal Boistinker I'm obviously fudging the numbers/details a bit (I seriously don't need me or my firm outted), but it's all true enough to communicate the general picture. Hours through the roof, people getting more work dumped on them, more people leaving than starting, lots more looking for work currently because of the shitty hours with the result being that the situation just keeps getting worse and worse. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2007632&forum_id=2#21201506) |
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Date: July 28th, 2012 9:48 PM Author: frozen heady orchestra pit gaming laptop man it depends. true sweatshops like wachtell and quinn will push you like that (250 expected), but you can usually lateral out to high end normal sweatshops and do well (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2007632&forum_id=2#21201533) |
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Date: July 28th, 2012 9:52 PM Author: Olive Fiercely-loyal Boistinker I'd assume it's not always going to be like this and try to ride it out, but the problem is that having been there less than a year, it's hard to tell. And because we're now 5 years post-crash, the people in the years just ahead of me don't know either.
The talk among the associates is that the partners are trying to get us to return to a 2007 billing mentality by shrinking the department so that we're all billing as much as the people did in 2007. I don't know if this is just speculation or not. We obviously get paid a lot less than people did in 2007. |
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Date: January 27th, 2013 11:14 PM Author: House-broken electric roommate stock car Holy Shit!!! I had a somewhat similar billing pattern for a stretch while in BigLaw, and I was praying someone would just hit me with a car so that I can spend a few weeks in the hospital. I did 235, 250, and 225. You may consider paying someone to hit you with a car (have it planned so that you don't get severely injured) and take a 2-week vacation at home. The firm won't fire you because of this. You can look like a champ by saying that you can bill while at home.
Edit: There was a partner in my previous law firm that would bill like how your partner billed; however, rumor was that he billed for traveling. He was rainmaker. So, he would rack up 10 hours easily by flying out to Asia or Europe. |
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Date: July 28th, 2012 9:26 PM Author: Marvelous halford Personally, I draw the line @ 180/month. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2007632&forum_id=2#21201376) |
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Date: July 28th, 2012 9:28 PM Author: Olive Fiercely-loyal Boistinker How do you do that? I'm trying to figure a way out of this situation. Can I really just stop working? Say "no" when I'm asked to do something? I sort of assume that would result in my getting fired. No? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2007632&forum_id=2#21201396) |
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Date: July 28th, 2012 9:33 PM Author: Marvelous halford So, you get fired. You aren't a slave bro. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2007632&forum_id=2#21201433) |
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Date: July 28th, 2012 9:42 PM Author: Olive Fiercely-loyal Boistinker True. Though I understand that while the lateral market has picked up, it's still much easier for the currently employed to find a job than for the unemployed. So perhaps leaving voluntarily for a new position would be preferable to getting laid off and trying to look from unemployment. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2007632&forum_id=2#21201492) |
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Date: July 28th, 2012 9:34 PM Author: Overrated ungodly athletic conference preventive strike find another partner to work for. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2007632&forum_id=2#21201441) |
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Date: July 28th, 2012 9:33 PM Author: Slimy yarmulke Just show him the letter you drafted to the Office of Professional Discipline (or whatever it's called in your state) detailing your concerns about his billing practices. He'll back off. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2007632&forum_id=2#21201435) |
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Date: January 27th, 2013 11:13 PM Author: Big Marketing Idea Garrison lol, do not do this (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2007632&forum_id=2#22516584) |
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Date: January 28th, 2013 8:39 AM Author: Beady-eyed indian lodge azn 180, because I did exactly this in the exact same situation. It made the partner reflect on his billing practices and what he had been doing. He wasn't a bad guy, just slowly started going overboard with the billing. He ended up being more reasonable @ "only" 200hrs/mo, which still sucks but at least there are no ethical problems.
highly recommended if the partner is a smart dude. |
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Date: July 28th, 2012 9:35 PM Author: Odious filthpig associate Usually bill around 180. Anything north of 200 = killself territory, imo. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2007632&forum_id=2#21201453) |
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Date: January 27th, 2013 11:01 PM Author: brilliant nighttime skinny woman this is absurd. you guys are acting like people have consistent work every month and 180 is cool.
to meet your hours most people need 200+ hour months to make up for the inevitably slow months. |
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Date: January 27th, 2013 11:14 PM Author: Big Marketing Idea Garrison That's true in transactional because the work is there or not. It lit you can spread it around and be consistent. I generally am 170-190 every month in lit and I can generally decide if I want to blow it out or not. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2007632&forum_id=2#22516607) |
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Date: January 27th, 2013 11:16 PM Author: brilliant nighttime skinny woman lol wut? lit is come and go, cases constantly settle or get stayed, etc. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2007632&forum_id=2#22516621) |
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Date: January 27th, 2013 11:28 PM Author: Big Marketing Idea Garrison While deal work is consistent?
In lit you're handling 5-8 matters at a time over the course of years. |
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Date: January 28th, 2013 12:08 AM Author: brilliant nighttime skinny woman what you're describing is atypical of biglaw lit associates. many are on 1-3 big matters at a time, usually 1 very big matter and a few smaller cases. if the big matter settles and they're not immediately staffed on another big case, they could be billing less than 100 hours per month for a few months. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2007632&forum_id=2#22517104) |
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Date: January 28th, 2013 12:20 AM Author: Mahogany wild step-uncle's house sound barrier what he's describing is very typical of biglaw lit associates. other than the rare instances of actual trials and last minute ex partes, lit is consistent as fuark. especially for your first 3 years, when you can stay on huge doc reviews, sprinkle in some pro bono to fill in the gaps, you can pretty much choose your hours. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2007632&forum_id=2#22517185) |
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Date: January 28th, 2013 12:21 AM Author: brilliant nighttime skinny woman you guys work for weird firms. most biglaw firms staff junior associates on very large matters and if they settle suddenly their work can go dry for weeks if not months. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2007632&forum_id=2#22517194) |
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Date: January 28th, 2013 12:23 AM Author: Big Marketing Idea Garrison It's certainly true that you can have a sub 100 month, but if you do 180 every other month, no worries. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2007632&forum_id=2#22517204) |
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Date: January 28th, 2013 12:30 AM Author: Mahogany wild step-uncle's house sound barrier are you a biglaw lit asasociate? yes most juniors are on very large matters and those very large matters last a very long time with consistent work. usually they're doc reviews. if one matter dries up, you do more work on another one you're already on, or jump on a new one, or do pro bono to fill in the time. back to the point, this leads to very consistent hours as far as biglaw goes. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2007632&forum_id=2#22517241) |
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Date: January 28th, 2013 12:41 AM Author: brilliant nighttime skinny woman "are you a biglaw lit asasociate?"
yes, and it sounds like I'm a lot more senior than you are.
"yes most juniors are on very large matters and those very large matters last a very long time with consistent work."
one can hope, but in real life almost all cases settle. some settle right before trial. however, most settle at strategic points like before significant discovery, depositions, etc.
"usually they're doc reviews. if one matter dries up, you do more work on another one you're already on,"
so more work magically shows up on other matters? work that wasn't being done by anyone suddenly is created? the case was understaffed thus allowing a now slow associate to pick up the slack?
"or jump on a new one,"
so there are lots of cases just floating around ITE?
"or do pro bono to fill in the time."
these are not billable hours and thus irrelevant.
"back to the point, this leads to very consistent hours as far as biglaw goes."
not really. |
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Date: January 28th, 2013 12:56 AM Author: Big Marketing Idea Garrison At minimum, my experience and your experience are wildly divergent.
I do not believe you are a litigation associate.
Doc reviews are as many hours as you want. At a big law shop there are always doc reviews you can get on (lately).
Pro bono does count for billables at some firms.
90 percent of my months have been 165-185.
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Date: January 29th, 2013 12:51 AM Author: Mahogany wild step-uncle's house sound barrier if he is in biglaw my guess is a dewey-type place about to go under (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2007632&forum_id=2#22524511) |
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Date: January 29th, 2013 12:48 AM Author: Mahogany wild step-uncle's house sound barrier "yes, and it sounds like I'm a lot more senior than you are."
lol oh SNAP i just dun got served |
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Date: January 28th, 2013 12:22 AM Author: Big Marketing Idea Garrison "many are on 1-3 big matters at a time, usually 1 very big matter and a few smaller cases."
You can't even write a consistent sentence. |
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Date: January 28th, 2013 12:24 AM Author: brilliant nighttime skinny woman there was nothing inconsistent about that sentence, you must be very dumb.
1-3 big matters...
1 "VERY" big matter and a few "SMALLER" (i.e. big but not very big) cases.
still don't understand idiot? |
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Date: January 28th, 2013 12:37 AM Author: Big Marketing Idea Garrison You're right. You were merely imprecise. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2007632&forum_id=2#22517280) |
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Date: January 28th, 2013 12:41 AM Author: brilliant nighttime skinny woman glad you can admit you were wrong and have poor reading comp skills for an attorney. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2007632&forum_id=2#22517295) |
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Date: July 28th, 2012 9:49 PM Author: Thriller boltzmann crackhouse that's not the same thing we alluded to (and discussed) several days from now (at that time). (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2007632&forum_id=2#21201541) |
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Date: July 28th, 2012 10:36 PM Author: Magical swashbuckling friendly grandma ITT: OP is mad that his partner makes $1M+ yet sounds like a good dad
"eats dinner with his family... Watches his kids softball games..etc etc" |
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Date: January 27th, 2013 11:08 PM Author: Onyx aphrodisiac stage Dis it OP? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2007632&forum_id=2#22516553) |
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Date: January 28th, 2013 7:53 AM Author: metal forum party of the first part lol, ethics,lol. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2007632&forum_id=2#22518476) |
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Date: January 28th, 2013 12:43 PM Author: Impressive mood abode I choose, business......ethics.......
<gasp> |
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Date: January 28th, 2013 8:24 AM Author: Dead Piazza I worked for a partner like this, once. It got so exaggerated that he started telling people, with a straight face, that he had billed 4,000 hours the previous year. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2007632&forum_id=2#22518491) |
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Date: October 2nd, 2014 11:37 PM Author: clear painfully honest psychic puppy A midlevel told me he bills 3000 a year (even though he's never been on a trial).
He takes a month off every year for vacation too. What a liar. |
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Date: January 28th, 2013 3:47 PM Author: soul-stirring reading party i once had to generate from scratch 6 months of time entries for a lazy partner (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2007632&forum_id=2#22520531) |
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Date: October 2nd, 2014 10:52 PM Author: Big Marketing Idea Garrison lol (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2007632&forum_id=2#26446861) |
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Date: January 28th, 2013 11:30 PM Author: Burgundy Stage Faggotry Short term rewards but long term pwnage (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2007632&forum_id=2#22523884) |
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Date: January 29th, 2013 12:29 AM Author: insane lime turdskin "Unless he never sleeps, it is physically impossible for him to be billing the kind of hours he says he is."
Not true at all. There are a lot of hours in the day if you use them efficiently (not saying I do, but it's possible). |
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Date: August 5th, 2013 10:19 AM Author: hairraiser old irish cottage (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2007632&forum_id=2#23783304) |