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Proposal to replace HYS and CCN with HYSC and CNPM
Poast new message in this thread
Date: September 29th, 2004 12:12 PM Author: Ocher concupiscible area More appropriate considering the gap between Stanford and Columbia is tiny and that the gap between Chicago and Penn/Michigan is even tinier. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=88227&forum_id=2#1408484) |
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Date: September 29th, 2004 12:13 PM Author: Odious stage sweet tailpipe M should never be in the same category with CN
it belongs in the bvcndg crowd. |
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Date: September 29th, 2004 12:14 PM Author: Ocher concupiscible area Good point. HYSC and CNP are more appropriate. Basically splitting the top 14 down the middle. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=88227&forum_id=2#1408495) |
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Date: September 29th, 2004 12:15 PM Author: talented chest-beating meetinghouse It should be (and is):
Y
SH
CCN
MVBP
DC
GN |
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Date: September 29th, 2004 12:16 PM Author: Odious stage sweet tailpipe Subject: actually, it's y
hs
ccn
the rest |
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Date: September 29th, 2004 12:17 PM Author: marvelous up-to-no-good kitchen Correct (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=88227&forum_id=2#1408508) |
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Date: September 29th, 2004 12:17 PM Author: talented chest-beating meetinghouse once again you are wrong wrong wrong. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=88227&forum_id=2#1408510) |
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Date: September 29th, 2004 12:19 PM Author: Odious stage sweet tailpipe saying wrong three times doesn't help your cause (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=88227&forum_id=2#1408518) |
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Date: September 29th, 2004 12:22 PM Author: talented chest-beating meetinghouse red-herring (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=88227&forum_id=2#1408544) |
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Date: September 29th, 2004 12:17 PM Author: Ocher concupiscible area Subject: Nah It's:
Y
HSC
CNP
MVB
DC
GN |
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Date: September 29th, 2004 12:18 PM Author: talented chest-beating meetinghouse HSC (CLS or U-C?)
Penn is most certainly in the MVB group. |
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Date: September 29th, 2004 12:19 PM Author: Ocher concupiscible area C in HSC is Columbia.
If Penn belongs in MVB then so does Chicago. |
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Date: September 29th, 2004 12:19 PM Author: Odious stage sweet tailpipe C should never be in the same class as h. c is full of h rejects. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=88227&forum_id=2#1408523) |
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Date: September 29th, 2004 12:21 PM Author: Ocher concupiscible area H is full of Y rejects and S is full of H and Y rejects. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=88227&forum_id=2#1408536) |
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Date: September 29th, 2004 12:23 PM Author: grizzly soul-stirring yarmulke famous landscape painting I think it's easier to get into H than S, so I don't think you can make this statement as a generalization. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=88227&forum_id=2#1408551) |
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Date: September 29th, 2004 12:24 PM Author: Odious stage sweet tailpipe that's why Y is in its own category
S, however, is not full of h rejects. |
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Date: September 29th, 2004 12:25 PM Author: grizzly soul-stirring yarmulke famous landscape painting I'll bet Y has S rejects, though. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=88227&forum_id=2#1408567) |
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Date: September 29th, 2004 12:26 PM Author: Odious stage sweet tailpipe I'm sure y has some s and h rejects, but probably not many. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=88227&forum_id=2#1408572) |
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Date: September 29th, 2004 12:28 PM Author: grizzly soul-stirring yarmulke famous landscape painting I think it's probably full of S rejects, not necessarily H rejects. S has just as small a class as Y. When you get to that level of selectivity, it's random. If there are any geographic factors to the admissions decision, even if miniscule, it's bound to cause S to reject some candidates that Y would accept, and vice versa. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=88227&forum_id=2#1408585) |
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Date: September 29th, 2004 12:21 PM Author: talented chest-beating meetinghouse GTO you know I love Penn, but U-C is in the class with NYU and CLS (who are dominated by HYS, esp Y). Penn with all due respect while a clear top 10 (and a favorite of mine) is edged by Chicago. There is no reason or evidence to believe otherwise. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=88227&forum_id=2#1408534) |
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Date: September 29th, 2004 12:22 PM Author: Ocher concupiscible area IMO Stanford and Columbia are more similar than Columbia and Chicago. I think Chicago is definitely in the same class as NYU but Chicago and NYU have more in common with Penn than they do Columbia. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=88227&forum_id=2#1408543) |
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Date: September 29th, 2004 12:24 PM Author: grizzly soul-stirring yarmulke famous landscape painting see my question below (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=88227&forum_id=2#1408554) |
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Date: September 29th, 2004 12:24 PM Author: talented chest-beating meetinghouse based on? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=88227&forum_id=2#1408559) |
Date: September 29th, 2004 12:20 PM Author: Vigorous brass becky chapel are columbia and nyu that different? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=88227&forum_id=2#1408525) |
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Date: September 29th, 2004 12:20 PM Author: Odious stage sweet tailpipe they are identical in every way (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=88227&forum_id=2#1408531) |
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Date: September 29th, 2004 12:21 PM Author: Vigorous brass becky chapel they sure dont seem different enough to me to group them separately (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=88227&forum_id=2#1408538) |
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Date: September 29th, 2004 12:24 PM Author: Ocher concupiscible area Except that Columbia wins the common admit game by a large margin. For most people NYU is the second choice school. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=88227&forum_id=2#1408556) |
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Date: September 29th, 2004 12:24 PM Author: grizzly soul-stirring yarmulke famous landscape painting What school do you go to? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=88227&forum_id=2#1408560) |
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Date: September 29th, 2004 12:25 PM Author: Odious stage sweet tailpipe where are the stats to support this claim? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=88227&forum_id=2#1408564) |
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Date: September 29th, 2004 12:25 PM Author: Vigorous brass becky chapel what matters is what employers, not students, think, IMO (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=88227&forum_id=2#1408566) |
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Date: September 29th, 2004 12:34 PM Author: Exhilarant Overrated Private Investor Dingle Berry That's actually false. NYU wins the common admit battle by a substantial margin. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=88227&forum_id=2#1408612) |
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Date: September 29th, 2004 7:08 PM Author: nofapping rigor headpube just out of curiousity, how do you know? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=88227&forum_id=2#1411025) |
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Date: October 2nd, 2004 12:24 AM Author: black nibblets I don't think either really beats the other, or that would be reflected in the GPA/LSAT numbers. I think it's ridiculous to make a distinction between schools whose students are indistinguishable.
The measure of a school is the talent it can attract. |
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Date: September 29th, 2004 7:35 PM Author: Contagious orchestra pit toilet seat yes, they're different. columbia has had a long history of being a T5. NYU gamed the rankings recently. more successful columbia grads out in firms, businesses, and courts than nyu grads. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=88227&forum_id=2#1411209) |
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Date: September 29th, 2004 12:22 PM Author: grizzly soul-stirring yarmulke famous landscape painting Isn't it harder to get into the holy trinity than into Columbia? I think this is the reason it's HYS CCN. The admissions profiles for HYS are all like, you "must" have superior academic achievements and be in the top 5% in terms of both GPA and LSAT. Columbia's (and probably NYU and CHic) are more like, we look for diversity and beyond the numbers so you have a chance even if you get dinged from HYS. That's my perception, anyway. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=88227&forum_id=2#1408541) |
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Date: September 29th, 2004 12:25 PM Author: Cheese-eating geriatric location H/Y (Y has "slightly" better ls, but h tops to all people outside law)
S
CCN
MVBP
CD
GN
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Date: September 29th, 2004 12:27 PM Author: Stimulating Stag Film Degenerate correct (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=88227&forum_id=2#1408579) |
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Date: September 29th, 2004 12:35 PM Author: Exhilarant Overrated Private Investor Dingle Berry The gap between Stanford and Columbia is huge. And NYU is only slightly better than Columbia. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=88227&forum_id=2#1408617) |
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Date: September 29th, 2004 1:36 PM Author: talented chest-beating meetinghouse "The gap between Stanford and Columbia is huge."
With you so far...
"And NYU is only slightly better than Columbia"
What a crock of shit!!!! The two schools couldn't be any more comprable. |
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Date: September 29th, 2004 12:48 PM Author: mewling low-t university Just to add fuel to the flames:
If you go by the USNWR reputation surveys, it should be something like:
HSY CC M BNV P.
And it has been that way for a long time. |
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Date: September 29th, 2004 12:49 PM Author: Odious stage sweet tailpipe yeah, those rep surveys are crap tho
lets just go by median lsat |
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Date: September 29th, 2004 12:51 PM Author: mewling low-t university I guess it depends on what you care about. I might note, by the way, that median LSAT is a particularly tough category for distinguishing top schools, since the differences tend to be trivial. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=88227&forum_id=2#1408710) |
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Date: September 29th, 2004 12:52 PM Author: Exhilarant Overrated Private Investor Dingle Berry Who would care about an unscientific and completely unreliable survey? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=88227&forum_id=2#1408722) |
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Date: September 29th, 2004 1:05 PM Author: mewling low-t university They are certainly imperfect surveys in many ways.
But "completely unreliable" is an overstatement, particularly considering their stability over time. |
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Date: September 29th, 2004 12:54 PM Author: Dashing turquoise electric furnace like this makes a fuck of a difference to anybody.
I think N should be sliced in half, so it would be HYSCC1/2N and 1/2NMP and the rest. |
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Date: September 29th, 2004 12:57 PM Author: Aromatic chocolate business firm splitting a school into halves is ingenious. congratulations on outdoing all the other idiotic rankings people have posted. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=88227&forum_id=2#1408766) |
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Date: September 29th, 2004 12:58 PM Author: Dashing turquoise electric furnace if you can't see the sarcasm inherent in my post, then that's your problem. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=88227&forum_id=2#1408773) |
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Date: September 29th, 2004 12:59 PM Author: Aromatic chocolate business firm see my edit. i misworded and misinterpreted. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=88227&forum_id=2#1408778) |
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Date: September 29th, 2004 1:01 PM Author: Dashing turquoise electric furnace no problem.
Perhaps N could be sliced up into 1/3rds, or even quarters if necessary to make people feel better about the prestige level of their school grouping in the top 14. |
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Date: September 29th, 2004 1:03 PM Author: Aromatic chocolate business firm you're on to something here. all schools should be split into fractions, and then weighted to various prestige levels. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=88227&forum_id=2#1408798) |
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Date: September 29th, 2004 1:08 PM Author: Dashing turquoise electric furnace so that if you finish in the bottom 10% at NYU, part of your diploma will actually say University of Michigan Law School on it, so as to show that you don't really deserve all of the 'prestige' that goes along with an NYU degree. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=88227&forum_id=2#1408818) |
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Date: September 29th, 2004 12:56 PM Author: Aromatic chocolate business firm Can't you fucking morons find something more interesting to argue about? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=88227&forum_id=2#1408745) |
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Date: September 29th, 2004 12:56 PM Author: Dashing turquoise electric furnace Bingo! (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=88227&forum_id=2#1408758) |
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Date: September 29th, 2004 12:57 PM Author: Exhilarant Overrated Private Investor Dingle Berry ... (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=88227&forum_id=2#1408764) |
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Date: September 29th, 2004 7:02 PM Author: puce locale Y
H/S
Everyone else. |
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Date: September 30th, 2004 5:42 AM Author: diverse dopamine Subject: typical of xoxo rankings... really it is
My school
the others (i.e. yours) |
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Date: October 1st, 2004 11:46 PM Author: Beady-eyed bearded dragon Onizuka, you're the prototypical, aggressively mediocre Penn Law toolbox. You offer no justification as to why Penn is close to Chicago or NYU. Your faculty doesn't hold a card to Chicago's (or Columbia's, NYU's, or even Michigan's). The legal community certainly doesn't think Penn is comparable with said institutions. Your school would rather do yield protection and compete against Fordham for applicants (probably you) than to legitimately compete for the top students.
Also, how many Supreme Court clerks do you have this term? Here's some reading material for you as you enjoy your overhyped garbage hole:
Supreme Court Clerks in 04-05 1. Harvard (9 clerks) 2. Chicago (7 clerks) 3. Yale (5 clerks) 4. Stanford (4 clerks) 5. NYU (3 clerks) 6. Virginia (2 clerks) 7. Northwestern, Michigan, Columbia, UCLA, Boston College (1 each) |
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Date: October 2nd, 2004 12:04 AM Author: Unhinged massive new version Please learn to use the "reply" function before you argue.
Thank you. |
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Date: October 2nd, 2004 12:05 AM Author: Beady-eyed bearded dragon Good rejoinder. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=88227&forum_id=2#1423651) |
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Date: October 2nd, 2004 12:07 AM Author: Unhinged massive new version Thanks. I see you're catching on. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=88227&forum_id=2#1423657) |
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Date: October 2nd, 2004 12:09 AM Author: talented chest-beating meetinghouse I have to say that GTO needs to calm down with the trolling. He is getting to be almost as bad as Edgar "The NYU jackass" Martinez. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=88227&forum_id=2#1423667) |
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Date: October 2nd, 2004 12:10 AM Author: Unhinged massive new version He's an excitable kid. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=88227&forum_id=2#1423670) |
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Date: October 2nd, 2004 12:12 AM Author: talented chest-beating meetinghouse both of them are. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=88227&forum_id=2#1423681) |
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Date: October 2nd, 2004 12:12 AM Author: Unhinged massive new version *high five* (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=88227&forum_id=2#1423685) |
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Date: October 2nd, 2004 12:39 AM Author: sable regret psychic Wow, you're a fucking stooge.
The only way to analyze it is hiring prospects.
Y HS CCN MVP |
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Date: October 2nd, 2004 12:40 AM Author: sable regret psychic In academic hiring Penn is not even be in the same category as MV. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=88227&forum_id=2#1423844) |
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Date: October 2nd, 2004 12:41 AM Author: Unhinged massive new version In regular hiring M is not even in the same category as PV (judging by the anecdotal evidence in MFS's thread). (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=88227&forum_id=2#1423849) |
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Date: October 2nd, 2004 12:43 AM Author: talented chest-beating meetinghouse indeed. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=88227&forum_id=2#1423854) |
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Date: October 2nd, 2004 12:52 AM Author: Beady-eyed bearded dragon Michigan definitely has more prestige than any school outside the big six. Outside of NYC, Michigan is still considered to be better than NYU (probably fallaciously so, but whatever). Also, Michigan still produces great young academics, better than NYU, Columbia, or UVA, and miles ahead of Penn. If you're from Penn and on the academia market, your options are restricted to places like Temple and the Appalachian School of Law. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=88227&forum_id=2#1423895) |
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Date: October 2nd, 2004 12:53 AM Author: Exhilarant Overrated Private Investor Dingle Berry "Michigan definitely has more prestige than any school outside the big six. Outside of NYC, Michigan is still considered to be better than NYU "
Ummm . . . no. |
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Date: October 2nd, 2004 12:56 AM Author: Unhinged massive new version Michigan's great young academics are few and far between. I suspect that the academic market is very much an individualized process, and that the difference between having Penn, Michigan, or UVA on your diploma will be practically irrelevant.
Also, from a purely personal standpoint, I'd rather teach at a TTT in a nice area than at a top school. Less work and pressure that way. |
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Date: October 2nd, 2004 1:03 AM Author: Beady-eyed bearded dragon Actually, I think you're right. Also, Penn has made a big jump in selectivity recently, so you should have more promising law professor candidates. Sorry for the hostility earlier. :-)
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Date: October 2nd, 2004 1:15 AM Author: Unhinged massive new version Also, I'm hoping that the introduction of the Levy scholarship will improve Penn's luck on the academic market. Giving students the opportunity to work closely with faculty will (hopefully) make them more competitive for academic positions. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=88227&forum_id=2#1424036) |
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Date: October 2nd, 2004 12:52 AM Author: sable regret psychic Michigan also has 130 more students per class.
If Penn had a class size equal to Columbia or NYU, it would probably be competing with GULC right now. |
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Date: October 2nd, 2004 12:44 AM Author: talented chest-beating meetinghouse it seems at Michigan you have to worry about getting a job full stop. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=88227&forum_id=2#1423858) |
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Date: October 2nd, 2004 12:47 AM Author: Unhinged massive new version Also, at the MVP level, I don't think the difference between those three schools will have any real impact on one's academic job opportunities. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=88227&forum_id=2#1423870) |
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Date: October 2nd, 2004 12:49 AM Author: talented chest-beating meetinghouse I suspect intuitively that you are right. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=88227&forum_id=2#1423884) |
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Date: October 2nd, 2004 12:53 AM Author: mewling low-t university You might find this illustrative.
http://lsolum.blogspot.com/archives/2004_07_01_lsolum_archive.html#108912594144211701 |
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Date: October 2nd, 2004 12:56 AM Author: Beady-eyed bearded dragon WBA, your point about academic placement is absurd. Chicago just hired two great Michigan grads, both of whom were among the top catches in the market. What Penn grads do you see out there? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=88227&forum_id=2#1423923) |
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Date: October 2nd, 2004 12:58 AM Author: sable regret psychic Michigan will live on its reputation at least another 20 years.
But its headed downhill nevertheless. |
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Date: October 2nd, 2004 12:59 AM Author: talented chest-beating meetinghouse on what reputation?
It is widely considered a Top 10 as opposed to the Top 5 it once was. |
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Date: October 2nd, 2004 1:09 AM Author: mewling low-t university However, in the USNWR reputation surveys, Michigan consistently ranks ahead of all the schools in the top 10 but the top 5. In other words, it is consistently #6.
It is also #6 in Leiter's SCOTUS clerkship rankings, and #7 (after Boalt) in Solum's Top 18 Law School hiring rankings. |
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Date: October 2nd, 2004 1:12 AM Author: Zombie-like haunted graveyard "on what reputation?"
It's Top 10 reputation. |
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Date: October 2nd, 2004 1:11 AM Author: Unhinged massive new version I assume you mean Frantz and Milnikel.
Milnikel graduated magna cum laude from Michigan, was managing editor of the LR, and clerked on the First Circuit COA.
Frantz graduated summa cum laude, was an articles editor on the LR, clerked for Tatel on CADC and O'Connor at SCOTUS, and was a Rhodes scholar.
Both were full Darrow recipients.
I tend to think that either one would have been competitive on the academic job market if they had JDs from Penn or UVA instead of Michigan. Basically, I think they got that job because of their individual resumes, and not based on the name on their degree. |
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Date: October 2nd, 2004 1:15 AM Author: mewling low-t university I suspect the other one is actually Adam Cox, who made the rare (and perhaps unprecedented) transition from being a Bigelow Instructor to getting hired as a tenure-track professor. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=88227&forum_id=2#1424035) |
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Date: October 2nd, 2004 1:18 AM Author: Unhinged massive new version You could be right.
I'm not that familiar with the young faculty at Chicago. I knew Frantz went to Mich, but then I just started looking through names until I found another one who fit. Milnikel made sense. |
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Date: October 2nd, 2004 1:19 AM Author: mewling low-t university She's not tenure-track, however. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=88227&forum_id=2#1424050) |
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Date: October 2nd, 2004 1:21 AM Author: Unhinged massive new version Shit, you're right.
My mistake. |
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Date: October 2nd, 2004 1:18 AM Author: mewling low-t university Oh, and as an aside, graduating summa or magna, having an editorial board position on LR, and clerking on a top circuit does not make one automatic for a top professorship.
But nonetheless, Frantz (who of course added a SCOTUS clerkship) was a widely-acknowledged All Star candidate. |
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Date: October 2nd, 2004 1:20 AM Author: Unhinged massive new version Certainly not, but I don't think one would be noticeably *less* competitive if one had a Penn or UVA JD instead of a Michigan one. I'd imagine that personal factors would greatly overshadow any marginal reputational advantage that Michigan might still retain in academia. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=88227&forum_id=2#1424057) |
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Date: October 2nd, 2004 1:25 AM Author: mewling low-t university I'm not sure you can distinguish "personal factors" from, say, a better alum network.
Anyway, Michigan places significantly more people in tenure-track positions than UVA, which in turn places more than Penn.
http://www.utexas.edu/law/faculty/bleiter/rankings02/tenure.html |
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Date: October 2nd, 2004 12:48 AM Author: sable regret psychic One more thing
Penn has 257 students and manages 3.4/3.8 166/171
NYU has 441 students and manages a 3.6/3.9 167/172
Thus, while NYU has 110 students with a 172+, Penn has only 64 with a 171+
Thus, NYU beats Penn over the ass in student LSAT quality, even while Penn acts as LSAT whores (as evidenced by their completely shitty 25 percentile GPA) |
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Date: October 2nd, 2004 8:52 AM Author: Razzmatazz Slate Messiness Pocket Flask Your claim would be stronger if Penn had a larger class.
But generally I have no illusions of superiority to NYU. |
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Date: October 2nd, 2004 8:56 AM Author: mewling low-t university Obviously, though, the goal of going to law school is to build the biggest possible army of cyborg lawyers using the brains of your classmates. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=88227&forum_id=2#1424665) |
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Date: October 2nd, 2004 4:45 PM Author: pearl french chef codepig Any ranking scheme, online or not, that purports to rank Y as something other than the exclusive top school in the Nation, loses any and all credibility. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=88227&forum_id=2#1425855) |