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Lateraling from regional market to biglaw
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Date: April 27th, 2013 1:23 AM Author: boyish cyan hunting ground sex offender I went to a T50, graduated #2 in my class, and clerked for the local US COA judge. During the clerkship I had the chance to go to some V20-V30-type firms, but decided to stay in my home market, because they sold me that the hours would be better, that I'd get "earlier experience," and the COL would make up for the shittier pay. I'm at the local office of a V50ish firm. I've been staffed on huge fucking cases that never should have been handled by this small office, I haven't gotten shit as far as early expericne goes, and I work terrible hours reviewing documents. COL is alright, but I make 125 as a third year, and I'd be making 185 plus a much bigger bonus if I would have gone to the biglaw firms, and I would have been handed the 50k clerkship bonus (that local firms don't pay), all of which would cover COL differences and then some.
Is it too late for me to lateral to real biglaw?
tl,dr: chose regional market over biglaw, regretting it, can I leave and get in to biglaw now? |
Date: April 27th, 2013 1:26 AM Author: Lavender idiot meetinghouse I think you have an ok shot. It's been done before, but it won't be easy. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2241213&forum_id=2#23086729) |
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Date: April 27th, 2013 1:28 AM Author: boyish cyan hunting ground sex offender It's fucking lame. I could have done it when I was clerking. I have the same shitty experience as all the other third-year biglaw guys, just in a smaller city.
What do firms look for in third year laterals? Specific work experience? Same shit they looked for out of law school? |
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Date: April 27th, 2013 1:34 AM Author: Demanding keepsake machete legend From my experience, they hire junior laterals based on need, and right now many firms have needs in IP and RE. Contact a big recruiter in your target market- they'll know which firms are hiring someone with your skills (such as they are) and maybe do some blind inquiries with your credentials to see of there's any interest. If you're jus general lit or a securities doc review drone, it will take a while. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2241213&forum_id=2#23086758) |
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Date: April 27th, 2013 1:38 AM Author: boyish cyan hunting ground sex offender Pretty much general lit. We had 2 big antitrust investigations and cases relating to a long-term client, and then some partners in our other offices used me for other antitrust cases (because my rate is lower than NYC and they assume I know antitrust) so I've basically worked on antitrust every day for the last 2 years. I did a few small torts/contract stuff, too, but my day to day was some big antitrust case.
If I can get on a patent case, would that help my chances? |
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Date: April 27th, 2013 2:04 AM Author: Chest-beating stead You're fucked. Go review documents, loser, while I enjoy my 185k biglaw salary and APARTMENT on THE PARK. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2241213&forum_id=2#23086882) |
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Date: April 28th, 2013 6:13 PM Author: Ruddy cerebral area (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2241213&forum_id=2#23095926) |
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Date: April 27th, 2013 2:05 AM Author: Bipolar Corner Ratface how pissed does it make you that chill, fratty bros like me who went to T6 law schools and got median grades copped biglaw and will proly just cruise into a cushy in house job without really trying whereas you have obviously been striving your brains out your entire life? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2241213&forum_id=2#23086898) |
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Date: April 27th, 2013 2:12 AM Author: cowardly red dopamine No. I got a full scholarship to my T50 and I was tied to the city, so I couldn't leave. I also think that if in house is my goal, staying in this city would be the best move because #2 at a T50, COA clerkship, and regional biglaw isn't impressive in a saturated legal market, it puts me in good company here (there's only a handful of Vault firms in the entire city, and I think the one I'm at is either the best ranked or second best ranked).
I'm more pissed off that the fuck-heads at the firm lied to me to get me to come back. "If you go to [V20], you'll review documents for the next 4 years. If you come here, you'll be taking depositions and arguing motions in 2 months..." |
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Date: April 27th, 2013 2:16 AM Author: Bipolar Corner Ratface lulz. so you're going to lateral to a biglaw firm and make partner? good luck with that! (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2241213&forum_id=2#23086945) |
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Date: April 27th, 2013 2:18 AM Author: cowardly red dopamine No. I'll lateral to biglaw and do the exact same shit I'm doing now for more money, and worry about the future when it happens. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2241213&forum_id=2#23086958) |
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Date: April 27th, 2013 2:18 AM Author: Bipolar Corner Ratface (secretly striving for partner) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2241213&forum_id=2#23086961) |
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Date: April 27th, 2013 2:23 AM Author: cowardly red dopamine I mean, if they want to split their money with me, I'll take it, but the office I'm in (40 attorneys) hasn't made a partner in the last 3 years. They're using the recession to fuck all the of-counsels. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2241213&forum_id=2#23086983) |
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Date: April 27th, 2013 2:26 AM Author: Bipolar Corner Ratface i know people who clerked for COA judges, went to HYS, graduated in the top 10%, etc. etc. and they didn't make partner at my biglaw firm. about 5-10% of associates who are eligible to make partner actually make partner at my firm. they aren't going to "split their money with you" just because you have a clerkship and fancy honors. prestigious people are dime a dozen. the question is, can you bring in business? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2241213&forum_id=2#23086992) |
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Date: April 27th, 2013 2:28 AM Author: cowardly red dopamine I agree. What I'm saying is that I don't expect to make partner, but I'll cross that bridge when I get to it. I'm not going to make contingency plans for something that's years away. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2241213&forum_id=2#23086995) |
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Date: April 27th, 2013 2:19 AM Author: Fiercely-loyal prole degenerate I'm you except I picked the right regional firm. Vault means fuck-all in secondary markets. Look at Chambers.
Also, you did litigation. LOL at lit.
My firm pays below 160k but most associates I know spend only 40-50 hours a week in the office and don't take much work home. Market bonuses, too. It's a xoxo myth that regional BigLaw is worse pay, same hours. |
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Date: April 27th, 2013 2:21 AM Author: cowardly red dopamine Fuck. I summered there in 2009 when it was slow as fuck and everyone worked 40s (if that). I assumed that was how it would always be. I think the problem is that the firm took on huge local cases for their really good clients, even though they didn't really have the staff to do it without killing evryone.
I picked lit because in 2009 when I was a summer there was no transactional work. I remember it was mid June and a transactional associate was freaking out because he had only billed 700 hours on the year. |
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Date: April 27th, 2013 2:26 AM Author: slate racy ceo stage Ljl @ any partner passing up a huge matter because it would negatively impact the quality of life for associates. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2241213&forum_id=2#23086991) |
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Date: April 27th, 2013 2:28 AM Author: cowardly red dopamine I agree. I'd do it too if I were them. It isn't going to stop me from fucking leaving, especially after they sold me on the "don't do NYC biglaw, breh, they work you like a fucking dog." (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2241213&forum_id=2#23086998) |
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Date: April 27th, 2013 2:30 AM Author: slate racy ceo stage Your choice in career and starting position will probably do most of the stopping friend. D: (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2241213&forum_id=2#23087005) |
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Date: April 27th, 2013 2:33 AM Author: cowardly red dopamine Well, I can definitely go to some regional firm. I could probably get some government job (like DA's office). We'll see. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2241213&forum_id=2#23087022) |
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Date: April 27th, 2013 2:34 AM Author: slate racy ceo stage I'm not sure trading down the stack is going to solve these issues. But you know more than I do about your personal situation and preferences. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2241213&forum_id=2#23087030) |
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Date: April 27th, 2013 3:13 AM Author: boyish cyan hunting ground sex offender You're probably right. I'll figure it out. I'm waiting for my bar results to come in from the state I'll target. Then I'll call recruiters and see how it goes. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2241213&forum_id=2#23087205) |
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Date: April 27th, 2013 3:04 AM Author: doobsian library pervert kill yourself for licking boomer boots, house millennial (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2241213&forum_id=2#23087179) |
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Date: April 27th, 2013 3:07 AM Author: cowardly red dopamine How am I a millennial? I think taking a full-ride to a shit law school and turning down high price better ranked schools is a very non-millenial move. I made what appeared to be a rational choice, but I got fucked, mostly because they landed huge cases right as I started, and now I'm going to do something about it. Again, not millenial. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2241213&forum_id=2#23087190) |
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Date: April 27th, 2013 8:31 PM Author: Crawly codepig (chill, fratty asian clitdick) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2241213&forum_id=2#23091240) |
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Date: April 28th, 2013 3:07 PM Author: Chest-beating stead One of these doesn't belong. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2241213&forum_id=2#23094674) |
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Date: April 27th, 2013 2:21 AM Author: slate racy ceo stage Not to dump on you bro, but I honestly have no idea why you would ever go to a large firm expecting real experience. The economics just don't lend itself to juniors getting much exposure to the meatier aspects of practice. The first and best thing you can do is try to maximize your prestige, it's the teat from which almost all lawyers sup.
As for your question, it's going to be hard to make the move. The fact you're nominally in biglaw will help, but the stench of secondary markets can prevent people from making it to the show. |
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Date: April 27th, 2013 2:25 AM Author: cowardly red dopamine When I was a summer, the firm was willing to take on small cases where it made sense to staff it with 1-2 people that have low hourly rates. Now that work has picked up, they're taking in big cases that mandate lots of associates working for 2-3 partners that are directing traffic. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2241213&forum_id=2#23086989) |
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Date: April 27th, 2013 2:27 AM Author: slate racy ceo stage That's what happens when everyone is scrambling for work during massive downturn - alternative fees, flexible work schedules, lower thresholds for matters. Come on broheimerino. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2241213&forum_id=2#23086993) |
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Date: April 27th, 2013 2:29 AM Author: cowardly red dopamine I agree. Shit has changed. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2241213&forum_id=2#23086999) |
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Date: April 27th, 2013 2:31 AM Author: slate racy ceo stage Sorry for your situation. But this is law dude, you need to look out for yourself and stop listening to what partners say to you. Their incentive structure is entirely different than yours. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2241213&forum_id=2#23087008) |
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Date: April 27th, 2013 2:33 AM Author: cowardly red dopamine WORD. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2241213&forum_id=2#23087024) |
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Date: April 27th, 2013 2:35 AM Author: slate racy ceo stage I thankfully learned this pretty early. Made shit a helluva lot better. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2241213&forum_id=2#23087033) |
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Date: April 27th, 2013 2:42 AM Author: Bull Headed Cumskin describe for this 3L here (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2241213&forum_id=2#23087073) |
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Date: April 27th, 2013 2:48 AM Author: slate racy ceo stage Partners tell you to be heads down and focus on being a great lawyer. This is largely flame. You don't learn to be a great lawyer by sitting in a room reviewing documents.
They'll also try to monopolize your time, and claiming you as "theirs" which really hampers your ability to get a good cross section of work or develop stable workflows.
They'll generally say you shouldn't focus on business development (at least not until it's too late to do anything about it).
They'll say it's a good use of your time to do bullshit stuff like write articles for them about pet projects that you can't bill for.
They'll guide you away from substantive pro-bono opportunities that are a good chance to develop skills.
They'll say if you just work hard, you'll have a role in the firm and your career will be safe.
It all sounds good when you're young and naive, but that's not how the game is played if you look at the successful partners who run the firm. They don't say these things because they're bad people, they say them because their incentives guide their thoughts and they think what's best for them is best for you.
I pretty much refused to listen to any of this shit and focused on my career and it worked out far better. |
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Date: April 27th, 2013 2:52 AM Author: cowardly red dopamine All true. Only caveat I have is that all the great rainmakers in my office are all legit trial lawyers. They have great court presence. It's amazing that one of them came up through a big firm, because he has talent that you would think he had to have been an AUSA or something.
None of them can write though. I don't know if it's because they're too busy or if it's because they haven't had to write in years, but when they are ocasionally forced to write something, it's terrible. |
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Date: April 27th, 2013 2:55 AM Author: slate racy ceo stage They have great courtroom presence because they are good with people. This is never described as an essential component to being a good junior associate doc monkey.
They don't write because motion practice is best left to the technical wonk service partners. |
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Date: April 27th, 2013 2:52 AM Author: Bull Headed Cumskin Thanks, Bro. Will remember this.
Elaborate on what you mean by focusing on your career while at your firm. What do you do now? |
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Date: April 27th, 2013 2:57 AM Author: slate racy ceo stage I networked aggressively. I built up a good client base (think my book was ~600k my third year) and then left to join a well positioned client. I basically did 3-4 lunches a week for 2-3 years straight.
C-level dude at a venture backed start up. |
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Date: April 27th, 2013 2:59 AM Author: cowardly red dopamine 600k book? Lunches with who? This is amazing. I know 1 mid-level withh 400, and she's loved. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2241213&forum_id=2#23087152) |
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Date: April 27th, 2013 3:09 AM Author: slate racy ceo stage My firm really liked me and I really liked my firm. I just didn't want to do law any more. When I passed off the book when I left, it produced another ~500k and then started going down because the clients didn't like the people as much. I think I could have pushed it to a million by 5th year. Never know now.
As for the lunches, anyone and everyone related to the industries I wanted to work with. I didn't care. I'd take out the janitor if I felt he had some interesting insight. I started with a bunch of junior people and tried my best to learn as much about the industries as humanly possible. Over time, I traded up contacts.
I also had no shame about reaching out to people. I would cold email someone and ask them if they would be willing to have lunch because I wanted to learn more about they did. A shocking number of people agreed. I also went to a lot of business conferences where there were very few lawyers present so I could network directly with executives.
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Date: April 27th, 2013 3:02 AM Author: Bull Headed Cumskin Lit or corp?
Are you counsel or business? |
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Date: April 27th, 2013 3:10 AM Author: slate racy ceo stage I started lit and switched to corp once I realized how much easier it was to generate business over there. The firm didnt mind because they wanted to keep me happy and I was servicing a lot of my own clients.
I'm business now, though I still have General Counsel as one of my titles (just in case I ever want to go back down that path). As we continue to grow, I'll hire someone who wants to do it full time and just give it up. |
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Date: April 27th, 2013 3:12 AM Author: Bull Headed Cumskin Bro what was the point of the networking if you were going to leave law? Or was the networking just helpful for you to get your current job? Also, are you counsel or business and if the latter, how'd you pick up the skills? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2241213&forum_id=2#23087202) |
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Date: April 27th, 2013 3:14 AM Author: slate racy ceo stage That's how I got my clients -- it was very common for someone to know someone who knew the general counsel. I fully intended to stay in law initially, but as I spent more time with the business people on the business problems, I decided I liked that better. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2241213&forum_id=2#23087207) |
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Date: April 27th, 2013 3:15 AM Author: Bull Headed Cumskin Good stuff bro, thanks (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2241213&forum_id=2#23087209) |
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Date: April 27th, 2013 3:17 AM Author: slate racy ceo stage As for the skills, I dunno. I feel like business is understanding people and incentives. The trick to being good at it is to have a very strong understanding of their industry so you can figure out how those incentives line up. You can get a good sense for a lot of the basics by reading all of the contracts related to the industry and seeing how they change over time.
I also spent an hour or so a day reading all of the trade journals related to the industry. My goal when I walked through the door was to be able to contribute to the discussion beyond a legal level. That way they wouldn't just look at me as the asshole who was costing them $400 an hour, but as an adviser who could help their business move forward. |
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Date: April 28th, 2013 3:10 PM Author: Chest-beating stead This is where your flame jumped the shark. This is the same meaningless shit every lawyer's PR group puts in their "about us" section of their web page. You don't learn the ins and outs of any industry by reading some trade journals. There's nothing some guy that reads a trade journal a few hours a day can teach someone about the industry where the person has lived the industry their entire lives. You're hired because you know the law and can represent them in that capacity, not because you bring some unique business perspective to the table. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2241213&forum_id=2#23094692) |
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Date: April 29th, 2013 4:31 AM Author: slate racy ceo stage ?
I read trade journals, had lunch with members of the industry consistently and had knowledge of a vast assortment of contracts tied to the terms underpinning the business.
After a year of effort, I was more knowledgeable about strategic aspects of the industry than the majority of the people I spoke with.
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I'll give you an example, just for the sake of argument. Let's say you were interested in startups. If you were to put a year into reading venturebeat, techcrunch, wsj, business insider and a few targeted blogs (ben horowitz' blog comes to mind) and you coupled that with all of the 10K and 10Qs of recently IPO'd businesses in a particular industry, you'd have a pretty good idea about the high level trends in startups.
If you then coupled that with looking at a bunch of Series A investments, you could determine whether it was an entrepreneur's market or a VC's market. You could see the shift in financing terms and rate of deals over time and extrapolate whether things were picking up or slowing down.
If you then layered all of that on top of lunches where you ask for first hand knowledge from people directly working in the field, you'd find you knew your shit pretty well.
You just don't want to invest the 1000 or so hours it takes to do this. That's why you're in law. |
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Date: April 27th, 2013 2:35 AM Author: Bipolar Corner Ratface i just don't understand why smart, motivated bros like you do law. you could be doing so many other things that are more rewarding and probably pay more per hour. do you just hate yourself or something? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2241213&forum_id=2#23087034) |
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Date: April 27th, 2013 2:35 AM Author: slate racy ceo stage Made it three years before I bailed. Mom still gets upset about it. Lol. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2241213&forum_id=2#23087039) |
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Date: April 27th, 2013 2:39 AM Author: cowardly red dopamine Long story. I did do a few years in a different field. It was blowing up in my city in 2005 and I was making big money (way more than I make now), but by 2007 (when I applied for law school) it was apparent that it was crashing soon and I was fucked. The firm I was at basically closed its doors by January 2008. I did law school because in 2007 it looked safe still. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2241213&forum_id=2#23087064) |
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Date: April 27th, 2013 2:35 AM Author: cowardly red dopamine What type of patent creds are they looking for? I wonder if I could get staffed on some patent bullshit and then try to play that like I'm a patent guru. Maybe do a panel at one of the local law schools or something and act like a MFE. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2241213&forum_id=2#23087035) |
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Date: April 27th, 2013 7:42 PM Author: cowardly red dopamine (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2241213&forum_id=2#23090971) |
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Date: April 27th, 2013 8:24 PM Author: Chest-beating stead Dude, are you a TMF alt with this dumb-fuck plan? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2241213&forum_id=2#23091203) |
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Date: April 28th, 2013 4:24 PM Author: sickened chrome hall potus lol patent law has the steepest learning curve of pretty much any practice. it is not employment law. good luck faking it. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2241213&forum_id=2#23095173) |
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Date: April 28th, 2013 6:12 PM Author: honey-headed beady-eyed milk senate lol at this bs. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2241213&forum_id=2#23095915) |
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Date: April 28th, 2013 3:13 PM Author: Lake Orchestra Pit My answer to this depends solely on how smug you were about your "lifestyle firm" after OCI (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2241213&forum_id=2#23094714) |
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Date: April 29th, 2013 3:57 AM Author: cowardly red dopamine Not at all. At that time a lot of my smart classmates had struck out at oci, so I felt shitty. Plus I was still scared to get no offered. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2241213&forum_id=2#23098598) |