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Got this response regarding compensation for a Midlaw Job
Poast new message in this thread
Date: June 8th, 2012 11:58 PM Author: marvelous stag film I am a 7th year in biglaw making $265k plus whatever shit bonus we will get this year...I am talking with a recruiter about a midlaw job, and below was his response (from the firm) when I asked about compensation. Should I make the switch?
"Someone with your years of experience would likely make about $180,000 base in base salary (for 1600 hours), plus any bonuses earned. To the extent that an attorney bills more than 1600 billable hours on an annual basis, the attorney is entitled to an automatic bonus for each excess hour billed. Currently, the bonus is $180 for each hour billed in excess of 1600 hours up to 1800 hours and $200 for each full hour billed in excess of 1800 hours. For example, an attorney billing 1800 hours would be entitled to an automatic bonus of $36,000 and an attorney billing 2000 hours would be entitled to an automatic bonus of $76,000, bringing the comp to around $256k without any other discretionary or origination bonuses."
Thoughts? In some ways this almost sounds too good to be true....For perspective, this year I am on pace to bill and last year I billed around 2300 hours, so if I billed the same number of hours I would make the same amount at least...but I am pretty sure no one is billing even over 2k at this place. |
Date: June 8th, 2012 11:59 PM Author: Primrose orchestra pit background story wow 1600 is so low
do you think you'd have decent partnership prospects? |
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Date: June 9th, 2012 12:02 AM Author: marvelous stag film at my current firm? no real partnership prospects, but I can likely stay as long as I want... (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1966831&forum_id=2#20852569) |
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Date: June 9th, 2012 12:02 AM Author: Primrose orchestra pit background story no i meant the midlaw job (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1966831&forum_id=2#20852575) |
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Date: June 9th, 2012 12:03 AM Author: marvelous stag film oh, yeah, although who knows how lucrative that would even be. but yeah, if I built a book of business (which would be much easier I think at midlaw rates) I should be able to make partner. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1966831&forum_id=2#20852584) |
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Date: June 9th, 2012 12:06 AM Author: Primrose orchestra pit background story so if it's not the prospect of making partner, what is it that you find lucrative about this job? good pay/less hours? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1966831&forum_id=2#20852597) |
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Date: June 9th, 2012 12:09 AM Author: marvelous stag film good pay and less hours...more reasonable clients...less fire drills. If you have ever billed 2300 hours with biglaw clients you would know what I'm talking about. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1966831&forum_id=2#20852624) |
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Date: June 9th, 2012 12:10 AM Author: Primrose orchestra pit background story you don't think this midlaw place is saying 1600 because business is so bad right now that there is very little chance you'll get anywhere close to 2000, right (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1966831&forum_id=2#20852637) |
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Date: June 9th, 2012 12:12 AM Author: marvelous stag film why in god's name would they be hiring people if business is bad? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1966831&forum_id=2#20852660) |
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Date: June 9th, 2012 12:11 PM Author: arrogant french chef masturbator because business might be better in the future. Not all law firms are short-sighted (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1966831&forum_id=2#20853940) |
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Date: June 9th, 2012 12:10 AM Author: chartreuse floppy office is the bonus based on straight billing or collections? if its directly proportionate it might be collections - that can be a problem if you are not in control of collections and shithead partners write off your work. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1966831&forum_id=2#20852640) |
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Date: June 9th, 2012 12:12 AM Author: Twinkling bisexual sneaky criminal (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1966831&forum_id=2#20852668) |
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Date: June 9th, 2012 12:12 AM Author: marvelous stag film I think it is billing...but I am not 100% sure. I definitely know to be wary if it is based on collections. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1966831&forum_id=2#20852669) |
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Date: June 9th, 2012 12:18 AM Author: chartreuse floppy office it would not make sense to give you a bonus directly proportionate to billing if it were not tied to collections.
If they collect 2000 from me I should make around $250K all in, but I dont expect that since they are constantly giving little breaks to clients even though write offs are strongly discouraged.
I probably realize around 93% of my billing and that's higher than most firms. |
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Date: June 9th, 2012 12:20 AM Author: marvelous stag film yeah, as I think about it more, that sounds like it might be correct....which would suck...this email from their HR person sure is misleading. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1966831&forum_id=2#20852739) |
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Date: June 9th, 2012 1:39 AM Author: Milky Cumskin Heaven the word billed at least impli8es billed hours after writeoffs, not collections. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1966831&forum_id=2#20853017) |
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Date: June 9th, 2012 4:30 AM Author: Pungent free-loading church building eat cocks pussy face (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1966831&forum_id=2#20853367) |
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Date: June 12th, 2012 9:34 PM Author: carnelian site "if i built a book of business" is as much a pipe dream as "if i wrote a best seller" or some other fantasy. face it: you are a FAIL, hence never will be PARTNER (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1966831&forum_id=2#20876805) |
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Date: June 9th, 2012 12:08 AM Author: chartreuse floppy office what area, this is what you would make at my firm, though the compensation structure is different and lol at billing 1600 on purpose. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1966831&forum_id=2#20852616) |
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Date: June 9th, 2012 12:10 AM Author: marvelous stag film SF Bay Area.
This is supposedly a real live lifestyle firm. Supposedly 1600 hours is 100% ok if that is all you want to do... |
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Date: June 9th, 2012 12:10 AM Author: Primrose orchestra pit background story sounds fishy (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1966831&forum_id=2#20852642) |
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Date: June 9th, 2012 12:10 AM Author: Blathering Jew Degenerate http://gifura.orzhk.org/src/1332235315120.swf (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1966831&forum_id=2#20852643) |
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Date: June 9th, 2012 12:11 AM Author: chartreuse floppy office think of it this way, at your current firm, if you bill 1600, you get $265,000. If you bill 2000, you get $265,000 plus shit bonus.
see above re collections - that can be a fucking pain if you dont control the collections. MIDLAW CLIENT ARE CHEAP! |
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Date: June 9th, 2012 12:14 AM Author: marvelous stag film But at my current firm if I bill 1600 I probably get laid off pretty soon...so it is either kill myself with work or be slow and get laid off.
At my current firm we are ridiculously busy, so 1600 hours will never happen. |
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Date: June 9th, 2012 4:26 AM Author: Pungent free-loading church building penis + anus = unexplored. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1966831&forum_id=2#20853357) |
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Date: June 9th, 2012 12:10 AM Author: Twinkling bisexual sneaky criminal with such a low base number u have to wonder if there's even enough hours to go around to get you anywhere near 2000. also clients at midlaw firms are incredibly stingy man so don't expect to be block billing 60 hours per month like no big deal to a single matter anymore (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1966831&forum_id=2#20852646) |
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Date: June 9th, 2012 12:16 AM Author: marvelous stag film If I made 180k and billed 1600 hours I think I would be happy. ...that is still good money and billing 1600 hours is easy no matter how anal clients are about billing I believe (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1966831&forum_id=2#20852700) |
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Date: June 9th, 2012 12:12 AM Author: Primrose orchestra pit background story they may cut your hours, esp. if they have insurance clients (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1966831&forum_id=2#20852658) |
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Date: June 9th, 2012 12:16 AM Author: marvelous stag film no insurance clients. This is corporate and real estate work...and these are supposedly hours billed, not collected. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1966831&forum_id=2#20852706) |
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Date: June 9th, 2012 3:42 AM Author: Duck-like Jap Tanning Salon Are you in lit? I thought you can get that base as corp going in-house with 5-6 years. So it doesn't seem unreasonable. However, bonus seems too high. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1966831&forum_id=2#20853269) |
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Date: June 9th, 2012 4:01 AM Author: Twinkling bisexual sneaky criminal the bonus does seem pretty high. in midlaw thats probably like half his billing rate. is the firm really giving doods 50% of their billables, or more if it isn't on a collection basis, as this dood claims? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1966831&forum_id=2#20853290) |
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Date: June 9th, 2012 11:29 AM Author: marvelous stag film no, real estate and some corp. those jobs are hard to come by....and at a lot of them you are working just as hard as firm jobs.
bonus does seem high. it probably isn't hours billed....although if that is the case the email about comp was very misleading....like they think I wouldn't eventually ask for clarification |
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Date: June 9th, 2012 4:18 AM Author: Pungent free-loading church building lol it's a setup. DO NOT TAKE THIS JOB UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1966831&forum_id=2#20853324) |
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Date: June 9th, 2012 11:27 AM Author: marvelous stag film tell me more (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1966831&forum_id=2#20853793) |
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Date: June 13th, 2012 10:06 AM Author: Cocky dopamine tcr I dealt with almost this exact situation a year ago. Glad I turned it down (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1966831&forum_id=2#20879154) |
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Date: June 9th, 2012 11:44 AM Author: coiffed azn chad I would be very skeptical, brother. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1966831&forum_id=2#20853832) |
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Date: June 9th, 2012 11:53 AM Author: marvelous stag film yeah, I am....btw, your moniker is awesome (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1966831&forum_id=2#20853868) |
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Date: June 9th, 2012 12:00 PM Author: Sickened 180 alpha half-breed I work at a firm with a similar setup. As a jr associate , I made 85% of biglaw base salary. There is an 1800 hour "aspirational" goal that gets you a bonus. Every 50 hours above that increases the bonus. It is not $180 per hour, but it is still more than enough to make working more worth it.
I went to this firm straight out of law school, and I've never doubted my decision. People on this site might define it as a boutique due to the size, but its still high end complex work. I have busy periods like anyone else, but I still manage to hit the gym hard, cook for myself, and I almost NEVER work on weekends. I don't even check my email until Monday morning most of the time.
I would go OP. $35,000-50,000 more or whatever it would be in biglaw is NOT worth it. This is an awesome time in your life to make good money because you can enjoy it. $200k+ in a big coast city can be a lot of fun if you actually have time to do stuff. |
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Date: June 9th, 2012 12:09 PM Author: marvelous stag film If I had my weekends and even some of my weekday evenings free that would be a pretty big improvement.
The main draw is that midlaw clients are usually more reasonable. They don't constantly do deals with ridiculous deadlines and overly complex structures....I am getting tired of deals where you get a 20 page term sheet and find out it has to close in 2 weeks.
I don't have expensive tastes. $200k total and 1800 hours and sane clients sounds a lot better than 2300 hours (and a constant pushback to not bill more), $300k total and insane clients. |
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Date: June 9th, 2012 12:14 PM Author: chartreuse floppy office they are reasonable in so far as they dont expect you to start jumping at 9 pm on Friday and never schedule calls on Sunday morning.
however they are less sophisticated, less smart most of the time, and FUCKING CHEAP.
they make it hard to bill 2000 hours. i get a lot of "do this but dont spend more than 3 hours on this"
i billed almost 70 hours this past week, but its been my business week all year. usually i am 9:30 to 7 and no work on the weekends. its a pretty good deal but when your friends in biglaw have slow billing years and get paid 30% more for less work you get pissed. |
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Date: June 9th, 2012 12:34 PM Author: marvelous stag film less smart would be great to a point. It would be fun to seem like a genius rather than constantly feeling average or even below in terms of intelligence and stamina with a bunch of super smart incredibly hard working crazy people.
I don't foresee any slow billing years any time soon, so I don't think I am going to miss out on that.
70 hours is a shit load no matter what. I think this might be even more of a lifestyle firm than where you are at.
But no work on weekend or mostly not late at night would be a huge improvement. |
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Date: June 9th, 2012 12:38 PM Author: chartreuse floppy office fair warning, when you are taking home $11,000 a month, $9000 feels like something is missing. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1966831&forum_id=2#20854010) |
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Date: June 9th, 2012 12:47 PM Author: marvelous stag film really? i thought I wouldn't really notice it much...especially since it would just be savings.
but you never work weekends? like literally never? |
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Date: June 9th, 2012 12:51 PM Author: chartreuse floppy office in the year and a half i've worked here i've come in twice on the weekend and only once I was asked to come in. i probably look at a lease or title report from my couch on Sunday once a month or every 6 weeks.
this week was hell, i closed 2 deals and came close to closing a third. billed 12-14 each day, but that would be normal for closing one deal in biglaw.
i work more than most people. the office is a ghost town at 8 pm. |
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Date: June 9th, 2012 12:54 PM Author: marvelous stag film I am normally in the office from 8:30-6 or 7 and never on weekends...but I work almost every night after I get home and eat, usually late, and average probably 8 hours billed on the weekend.
If I could make $180k-200k and work 8:30-6 and be able to plan weekday nights and weekends without worrying the entire time I would be in heaven. |
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Date: June 9th, 2012 12:57 PM Author: chartreuse floppy office are you married with kids? i prefer not to work from home if i need my computer, slow ass VPN.
i can definitely plan weekday nights. almost never have to cancel on anything, but i usually dont make plans before 8 to be safe.
i dont think showing up an hour earlier would let me leave at 6. |
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Date: June 9th, 2012 1:02 PM Author: marvelous stag film yes, married with kids. I can't be in the office for more than 10 hours generally. I need to go home and have a change of scenery. The internet is fast enough at home. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1966831&forum_id=2#20854095) |
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Date: June 9th, 2012 12:56 PM Author: chest-beating meetinghouse dysfunction This sounds like my experience at my biglaw firm. In my 2 years there I've only billed more than 50 hours in a week 5-6 times. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1966831&forum_id=2#20854077) |
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Date: June 9th, 2012 12:58 PM Author: chartreuse floppy office i've done more than that in midlaw, but I gun. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1966831&forum_id=2#20854081) |
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Date: June 9th, 2012 1:00 PM Author: chest-beating meetinghouse dysfunction Average billables in my group are ~1800, and I billed 2050ish last year, so I am considered to be a bit of a gunner. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1966831&forum_id=2#20854089) |
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Date: June 9th, 2012 1:01 PM Author: chartreuse floppy office and you are texas biglaw or some bullshit right? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1966831&forum_id=2#20854094) |
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Date: June 9th, 2012 1:02 PM Author: chest-beating meetinghouse dysfunction NYC (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1966831&forum_id=2#20854096) |
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Date: June 9th, 2012 1:03 PM Author: chartreuse floppy office oh i got you confused with wishiwerentaposter, he spent $10K on rent and $20K on food last year. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1966831&forum_id=2#20854100) |
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Date: June 9th, 2012 1:04 PM Author: chest-beating meetinghouse dysfunction 20K on food? how? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1966831&forum_id=2#20854105) |
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Date: June 9th, 2012 1:12 PM Author: chartreuse floppy office no idea, look at the rate my finances (pics) thread.
I spend around $12,000 on food and drink, but that includes booze and dating. |
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Date: June 9th, 2012 1:28 PM Author: narrow-minded scarlet forum legal warrant How the fuck are you just billing 2050 in NYC Biglaw? Vault range?? I want that. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1966831&forum_id=2#20854193) |
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Date: June 9th, 2012 1:11 PM Author: yellow pistol lol at $250k being "decent money" in a big city. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1966831&forum_id=2#20854130) |
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Date: June 9th, 2012 6:47 PM Author: Sickened 180 alpha half-breed (pathetic faggot who determines his level of happiness by salary) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1966831&forum_id=2#20855956) |
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Date: June 9th, 2012 1:03 PM Author: Ruby dingle berry i am mad jelly,bro. would you encourage me to apply to law school? waht law school did you go to?
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Date: June 9th, 2012 1:09 PM Author: know-it-all newt Jesus.
I work 30-40 hours a week. NEVER over 40. I make about $140/yr.
I have too much free time.
I actually teach a class 3 days a week in the evenings.
I have 2 girlfriends.
When I hear people talk about making biglaw dough, it makes me want to earn more. But the hours and life sound life absolute shit. |
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Date: June 9th, 2012 1:12 PM Author: yellow pistol tcr. Your salary is absolutely pathetic. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1966831&forum_id=2#20854134) |
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Date: June 9th, 2012 1:16 PM Author: know-it-all newt Ya, but I don't really do anything for that $140k. And I'm in a secondary market so I make enough to do whatever. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1966831&forum_id=2#20854158) |
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Date: June 9th, 2012 1:23 PM Author: marvelous stag film lawfirm?
to be fair, I don't actually plan on using the free time to just hang out though...I just have side plans that involve work also. |
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Date: June 9th, 2012 2:51 PM Author: know-it-all newt bigfed (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1966831&forum_id=2#20854501) |
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Date: June 12th, 2012 10:12 PM Author: Pearl tantric indirect expression church flame (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1966831&forum_id=2#20877066) |
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Date: June 9th, 2012 1:26 PM Author: narrow-minded scarlet forum legal warrant You probably wont have the work to hill more than 1600 (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1966831&forum_id=2#20854189) |
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Date: June 9th, 2012 1:31 PM Author: marvelous stag film why would they be hiring then? I have never heard of a place hiring senior associates because they are slow. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1966831&forum_id=2#20854205) |
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Date: June 9th, 2012 1:39 PM Author: narrow-minded scarlet forum legal warrant "slow" is a Biglaw word. 1500 average billables isn't slow for midlaw (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1966831&forum_id=2#20854224) |
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Date: June 9th, 2012 1:51 PM Author: marvelous stag film If I can bill 1500 hours and make $180k I would be totally fine.
I mostly want to know that if it is a shit show and I end up billing 2k hours then I will be relatively well compensated for it. |
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Date: June 9th, 2012 2:12 PM Author: concupiscible fat ankles selfie Sounds too good to be true. Are they actually ok with you only billing 1600? Also, even though they're hiring, this might suggest there isn't a lot of work to be had (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1966831&forum_id=2#20854352) |
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Date: June 9th, 2012 2:40 PM Author: marvelous stag film I don't know, but I would be fine with billing 1600 hours and 180k.
It would be really odd for them to hire if they aren't at least busy enough for me to bill 1600 hours...and with the lower billing rates I think I should be able to bring in some business myself. |
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Date: June 9th, 2012 3:06 PM Author: chartreuse floppy office would your wife and her handbags and your kids and their private schools be okay with $180K? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1966831&forum_id=2#20854560) |
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Date: June 9th, 2012 3:16 PM Author: marvelous stag film wife is more frugal than me and makes about $100k also for a pretty easy job. kid is in pre-school, but will be going to public school after that...only thing I need money (and time for) are my own business and investment pursuits and maybe a nice vacation a year and some nice 3 day weekends for the 4th, Memorial day and labor day. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1966831&forum_id=2#20854612) |
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Date: June 11th, 2012 12:56 PM Author: marvelous stag film Update. Interviewed on Friday. Yes, the policy is actually based on billed hours by the attorney, not collected hours or even charged hours.
Starting to sound pretty good. Can't figure out what the catch is. |
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Date: June 13th, 2012 12:46 AM Author: Federal copper reading party tank They pay you in Ferengi dollars. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1966831&forum_id=2#20878282) |
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Date: June 11th, 2012 6:12 PM Author: marvelous stag film no one has any additional thoughts? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1966831&forum_id=2#20868733) |
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Date: June 11th, 2012 6:18 PM Author: chartreuse floppy office sounds like a good idea though I cant imagine there isn't some catch. I dont see how firms can pay directly proportionate to hours billed and not realization. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1966831&forum_id=2#20868765) |
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Date: June 11th, 2012 6:22 PM Author: marvelous stag film Well, if they are billing me out at about $400, and paying me $180, then they would have to take a serious hit on realization before they start losing money...so all they wouldn't be doing is making as much money, which I guess isn't the end of the world for them, especially since for the first 1600 hours they are paying me like $150 an hour including overhead and billing me out at like $400.... (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1966831&forum_id=2#20868797) |
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Date: June 11th, 2012 6:40 PM Author: chartreuse floppy office how much do first years get paid? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1966831&forum_id=2#20868904) |
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Date: June 11th, 2012 6:43 PM Author: marvelous stag film they don't have first years. I think the most junior lawyer is like a 5th year maybe. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1966831&forum_id=2#20868923) |
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Date: June 13th, 2012 12:31 AM Author: Yapping Foreskin Sanctuary I have a similar deal, based on hours billed (net of writeoffs), not collected. There's a clause that says if a client doesn't pay after six months, they can claw some of it back, but I'm told it's never actually happened.
There's still enough profit in the formula that the firm could absorb quite a bit of slow/no-pay clients. Most of the work is recurrent work for large corporate clients, so flaky billing systems notwithstanding, we generally get paid. I can see how this wouldn't be the case for other types of business. |
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Date: June 13th, 2012 12:52 AM Author: chartreuse floppy office isn't net of writeoffs the biggest fact in billables versus collections?
I am not too concerned about deal beat clients, I am concerned about partners giving clients a break at my expense. |
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Date: June 13th, 2012 9:11 AM Author: Yapping Foreskin Sanctuary I suppose it depends on the type of business. Where collections are a sure thing, yes, the biggest risk is discounting before the bill is presented. If I were dealing with individuals as clients, I'd be a lot more concerned about collections.
A lot of our stuff tends to be budgeted/capped, which is generally pretty transparent (i.e., everybody knows what the budget is). Outside of that, there isn't a huge incentive for partners to write off time, since that hurts them as well, although sometimes clients demand discounts after the fact.
As you suggest, being comped based on pure billables without any tie-in to efficiency at all would be the sweetest deal for the associate but would involve shifting almost all the financial risk to the firm, so I'd expect it to be rare, though not completely ludicrous. |
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Date: June 13th, 2012 9:35 AM Author: marvelous stag film Shifting the risk to the firm is a little risky. but I think they are able to do it because 1. They only have experiences lawyers so there isn't going to be any "learning curve" time to write off which is a lot of what we write off at my firm and 2. even if they write off 10% of time on an associate they are still going to make a lot of money and surely won't lose money. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1966831&forum_id=2#20879086) |
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Date: June 13th, 2012 11:12 AM Author: Yapping Foreskin Sanctuary Sure, I don't doubt that it can be made to work, and certainly would help to recruit talent. I just think that given the typical level of greed/risk aversion/shortsightedness of most partners, such arrangements won't be common.
If you've found a place that's enlightened enough to assume most of that risk, and you've kicked the tires enough to be reasonably confident it's not a sham, then consider yourself fortunate. |