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Harvard ALM degree
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Date: January 18th, 2005 5:36 PM Author: up-to-no-good 180 old irish cottage crackhouse Does anyone know about these programs run through Harvard Extension? Do people consider them "real" Harvard degrees? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#1956824) |
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Date: January 18th, 2005 8:11 PM Author: Maniacal bateful chad gaming laptop They don't carry the same currency as a "real" Harvard degree. They are certainly better than Bunker Hill Community College, though. Expensive as hell. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#1957710) |
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Date: February 19th, 2005 11:40 PM Author: trip indian lodge preventive strike Like I've been saying on this thread, I think it really depends on what you define to be a 'real' Harvard degree. The fact is, Harvard runs a lot of degree programs with a huge amount of variety. Some are very difficult to get into. Some are (relatively) easy to get into. Some require more residency than others. Some are taught by brilliant profs. Some are taught by mediocre profs. Some are very difficult to complete. Some are quite easy to complete (once you're in).
So once you start dividing up the various Harvard degrees into 'real' and 'not real', you immediately start running into problems of where you start placing certain degrees. For example, is the M.Ed. degree from the School of Education, is that a real Harvard degree? How about the Master's of Science in Engineering Sciences? How about the MPA degree from the Kennedy School? How about a MDiv from the Divinity School? How about a MUP from the Design School? Once you start falling down the slippery slope of deciding that certain Harvard degrees aren't 'real' Harvard degrees, it's very hard to stop. |
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Date: March 22nd, 2005 7:10 AM Author: avocado abusive church jewess nor would i. and your "slippery slope" argument is inane. it's not "very hard to stop." there's nothing so conspicuous as a kennedy school student in a law schoo class. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#2378858) |
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Date: June 24th, 2005 5:32 PM Author: razzmatazz lodge I would argue that a law student in a Kennedy class would probably also be rather conspicuous.
In any case the point still stands that no matter what program of Harvard they belong to, Harvard still considers all of them to be students. I don't see what is inane about what sakky says at all. They're all Harvard students. Why? Because Harvard says that they are. Hence, you can't really go around making distinctions that some Harvard students are not 'real' Harvard students. They're all Harvard students.
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Date: June 24th, 2005 5:42 PM Author: outnumbered drab ticket booth ...but you can make the argument that certain Harvard programs are more distinguished than others. This is the case with any school. I don't deny the fact that HES degrees are Harvard degrees, as they are most certainly degrees, and they are clearly conferred by Harvard.
That doesn't eclipse the fact that the ALM and ALB degrees are arguably the least "prestigious" (for lack of a better term) credentials that the university offers. They're essentially similar to certificate programs.
*edit: Note that ALM/ALB students are not even permitted to use Harvard's main library and are instead limited only to a secondary (or tertiary) facility. This is not the case for non-extension Harvard students, as they have access to all common facilities. |
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Date: June 26th, 2005 1:23 PM Author: razzmatazz lodge First of all, I don't believe it is true that ALM/ALB students are not allowed to use the main library. We have to make the distinction between those just taking classes, and those who are formally admitted HES students. It seems to me that formally admitted HES students have full access to Harvard's libraries.
"Admitted degree, certificate, and diploma candidates who are registered for courses receive Harvard Extension School photo ID cards. These ID cards provide access to Harvard libraries and other campus resources."
http://www.extension.harvard.edu/2004-05/libarts/alm/resources/
"Admitted Extension School liberal arts and professional candidates with Harvard University photo ID's have borrowing privileges at Widener, Hilles, Lamont, and Baker libraries".
http://www.extension.harvard.edu/2004-05/resources/libraries.jsp
And basically, after searching around on the following website, it seems to me that most libraries simply require a Harvard ID of any kind, including a HES ID, in order to enter and borrow books. Yes, there are some small, specialized libraries like the Sanskrit Library that only allow people affiliated with the Department of Sanskrit to enter, but that's not a problem specific to HES, but rather a Harvard-wide issue. Even regular Harvard College students would not be allowed in if they were not majoring in Sanskrit.
http://lib.harvard.edu/libraries/listings_alpha.html#alpha
Now as far as HES programs being not as prestigious as other Harvard programs, I completely agree with you. But like you said, the same thing happens at other schools. I don't think anybody is trying to claim that the HES programs are as prestigious as getting an MD from Harvard Medical or a JD from Harvard Law, or an AM from Harvard GSAS.
However, to me, I don't agree that the HES degrees are the least distinguished credential that Harvard offers. In my opinion, that prize still goes to the executive education programs run by Harvard Business School. Slap your money down, hang around HBS for a couple of months, and all of a sudden, you're a HBS "graduate", with not only general Harvard alumni privileges, but also Harvard Business School alumni privileges? I don't know about that. At least with the HES degrees, you actually have to prove that you know the material by passing exams and completing graded work, and if you don't, you won't graduate. My understanding of the HBS exec programs is that there are no exams and everybody "graduates". |
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Date: June 26th, 2005 1:51 PM Author: outnumbered drab ticket booth Apparently, I was mistaken about library privileges. For some reason, I'd read the website to mean that HES degree candidates could not use the central library (Widener?) and only had access to Baker Library. It may be, as you and the poster below mentioned, that HES students not yet admitted to the degree program are limited to the facilities that they can use, but that once they are admitted, those limitations are lifted.
Anyway, I don't want to knock HES or its students, as I have a great deal of respect for people who continue their education despite their age and/or family and work obligations, not to mention any socio-economic disadvantages they may have (some articles posted on the college board highlighted specific cases). I just don't believe that an ALB is really a sustitute for a traditional BA if you're a college-bound high school graduate who can realistically attend a traditional 4-year institution. For non-traditional students, however, HES is an amazing resource that unquestionably offers them the opportunity to receive a college education.
The ALM is a bit harder to pin down in terms of its usefulness as a credential. Rethinking the issue, it actually seems to me that an ALB is more useful to somebody seeking a college education than the ALM is to somebody who hopes to earn a graduate degree. |
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Date: June 26th, 2005 3:50 PM Author: razzmatazz lodge I think that nobody disputes that all HES programs cater to the nontraditional student primarily. If you're looking for a traditional educational experience, HES is probably not for you.
I also believe that the ALM, while obviously not as valuable as a traditional Harvard AM, may be more valuable than a lot of AM degrees from no-name schools out there. Faced with the choice of getting an ALM from Harvard or getting an AM from a no-name school, you may well be better off getting the ALM from Harvard. This is especially so because you can keep your job while earning the ALM, while most AM programs require you to quit your job to attend fulltime. Furthermore, while the academic resources in ALM are clearly not as extensive as what is available to a Harvard AM student, they may well be better than what is available to an AM student at another school. As stipulated above, as an admitted ALM student, you have access to almost the entire Harvard University library system, and you also have access to some (not all, but some) other Harvard resources. That may dwarf the sum total of resources available as a fulltime AM student at a no-name school.
I would also point out that there are companies out there that give hiring preferences to people with master's degrees. Some government jobs provide automatic raises to people who earn master's degrees. Some jobs actually require that you have a master's degree. Often times, they don't care what your master's degree is in, or where you got it from. They just have a bureaucratic rule that says that if you have a master's degree of any kind, you will be preferentially hired, or given a raise, or whatever. And the ALM is in fact a master's degree. So people may be using the ALM as an easy and cheap way to follow that bureaucratic rule. I don't see anything wrong with that.
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Date: June 26th, 2005 4:01 PM Author: outnumbered drab ticket booth Well, there's no arguing the utilitarian value if earning an advanced degree, no matter where it comes from. I think a Harvard ALM is probably a stronger credential than a general liberal arts MA from somewhere like UW-Milwaukee.
There are some people over on the college board who have asked whether the ALB is a viable alternative to a traditioanl degree from the bottom half of the top-50, and that is the issue I'm addressing--not professionals who do not have the means to pursue a full-time degree. HES is an incredible program for its target student.
People have also asked whether the ALM is a viable alternative to a full-time research degree from a traditional top 20-25 department, and to that I give the same answer. |
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Date: June 26th, 2005 1:33 PM Author: Hairless Bipolar Corn Cake "That doesn't eclipse the fact that the ALM and ALB degrees are arguably the least "prestigious" (for lack of a better term) credentials that the university offers. They're essentially similar to certificate programs."
How so?
Also, are you sure about the library thing? I believe, but could be wrong, that not all Harvard students have unrestricted use of all libraries. And I believe Extension students can get into most libraries with ID, just can't take out books. |
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Date: January 19th, 2005 12:04 AM Author: brindle submissive casino I'm a person and I wouldn't consider it a "real" Harvard degree. I can't speak for others. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#1959358) |
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Date: February 19th, 2005 11:05 PM Author: trip indian lodge preventive strike I think the real issue is what is considered to be 'real' and 'not real'. At the end of the day, you are still getting a degree from Harvard. Harvard certainly considers such degree-holders to be 'real' graduates, for they invite them to join the Harvard Club and they hit them up for alumni donations.
I think what sticks in some people's craws is that the Harvard extension degrees are easier to get than many of the other kinds of degrees from Harvard, simply because it is extremely difficult to get into many of Harvard's other degree programs (many of Harvard's degree programs are really not all that hard to complete, the trick is getting in in the first place). The problem with going down this road is that Harvard actually comprises many kinds of degree programs, some of which are much easier to get into than others. For example, getting into the Harvard master's degree program in engineering (yes, Harvard has engineering) is pretty easy as far as engineering graduate schools go, and certainly a whole lot easier than getting into an engineering graduate program in the 'other' school in Cambridge, Mass. Does that mean that all those recipients of Harvard MS degrees in engineering are not 'real' Harvard graduates? The same could be said for the degree programs in the Harvard Graduate School of Education, the Kennedy School of Government, and many of the master's degree programs in the Harvard Graduate School of Arts and Science (GSAS). They're not exactly easy to get into, but they're clearly not as difficult as getting into Harvard College, Harvard Medical School, or some of ther other programs at Harvard. So does that mean that somebody who holds a M.Ed. from Harvard from the Education is not a 'real' Harvard graduate?
I would also point out that this sort of thing is not specific to Harvard only. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to get into the Yale or Columbia School of Nursing, for example. You don't have to be a genius to get into the Stanford University School of Education. Even certain graduate programs at MIT, especially the more liberal-arts style of programs (yes, MIT runs some liberal-arts related graduate programs) really aren't all terribly difficult to get into. Yet the graduates of all these programs are considered by their respective schools to be legitimate graduates. Do you also not consider them to be not "real" degree holders from their respective schools?
The issue really becomes that you pretty soon, you start drawing arbitrary lines about what is 'real' and what is 'not real'. You start saying things like "Well, that person with the degree in nursing from Yale isn't a 'real' Yale graduate", or "That person who holds a degree from MIT in history isn't a 'real' MIT graduate". |
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Date: February 20th, 2005 3:12 PM Author: indigo filthpig Nice to have you join us! Welcome to XOXO. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#2171645) |
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Date: July 7th, 2005 5:24 AM Author: Henna volcanic crater orchestra pit Subject: Jack Ass MIT Extension Joe (his lordship) http://www.extension.harvard.edu/2004-05/help/default.jsp#rigorous
Is the curriculum as rigorous as it is for Harvard College and graduate students?
Harvard Extension School courses, a number of which are the same as those taught at Harvard College and Harvard graduate schools, are known for the high quality of instruction. Harvard arts and sciences faculty teach at the Extension School alongside instructors from the Boston community who have rich real-world experience. Students are held to the same grading standards as Harvard College students. |
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Date: February 21st, 2005 5:24 AM Author: curious garrison hissy fit It's quite real, but the catch is that ALM's (or MLA's elsewhere) are traditionally known as degrees ideal for schoolteachers, personal enrichment, a general "finishing" degree for those who had to quit grad school in the past for some reason, or an "entry-level" masters for one preparing for a second masters (pre-doctoral) program elsewhere. Ultimately, the academic community presumes one a possible idiot regardless of what breed of educational background.
If you're looking for a resume boost, HES is about as effective as 4-cylinder engine inside a Chevy Suburban. It will move the vehicle, nothing more. |
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Date: February 21st, 2005 5:50 PM Author: Hairless Bipolar Corn Cake Um, an ALM is a masters degree from HES. It could be in a number of things. They have one in biotechnology, for example. It is not a--well, whatever you think it is. It is not a general finishing degree. You're correct that people often do it as preparation to enter med school or grad programs (especially PhD). Nothing wrong with that.
It can give you a huge resume boost in the sense of enabling you to get a job or subsequent degree that you couldn't have gotten otherwise. I have seen this actually happen to friends. |
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Date: July 7th, 2005 5:22 AM Author: Henna volcanic crater orchestra pit Subject: For those who doubt- http://www.extension.harvard.edu/2004-05/help/default.jsp#rigorous
Is the curriculum as rigorous as it is for Harvard College and graduate students?
Harvard Extension School courses, a number of which are the same as those taught at Harvard College and Harvard graduate schools, are known for the high quality of instruction. Harvard arts and sciences faculty teach at the Extension School alongside instructors from the Boston community who have rich real-world experience. Students are held to the same grading standards as Harvard College students. |
Date: January 19th, 2005 12:06 AM Author: Arrogant scourge upon the earth Sure its a "real" harvard degree - mind you very very few people actually receive it (most ppl dont use the extension school for that purpose) - but certainly, its real (although it sounds a bit cheesy, not like that matters) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#1959373) |
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Date: January 19th, 2005 5:24 PM Author: up-to-no-good 180 old irish cottage crackhouse I think you're right. I'll bet the drop-out rate for the people who even intend to get the degree is really high. You have to stick with it for a while. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#1962683) |
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Date: January 19th, 2005 5:39 PM Author: up-to-no-good 180 old irish cottage crackhouse Also, you're right. It sounds cheesy. Especially considering there are Masters in Liberal Arts programs for Information Technology/Software Engineering.
But at the end of the day, you do have a Masters from Harvard. |
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Date: January 19th, 2005 6:11 PM Author: brindle submissive casino Well, but you have to list it as being from "Harvard Extension School." Just saying "Masters, Harvard" isn't acceptable (look at HES's own website FAQ for confirmation of this). (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#1963047) |
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Date: January 19th, 2005 7:20 PM Author: up-to-no-good 180 old irish cottage crackhouse I actually don't see what is wrong with listing your degree as from Harvard University. After all, a law degree is granted by the law chool, an MBA from the business school, etc. but there is nothing wrong with listing as follows:
JD Harvard University 2005
MBA Harvard University 2005
so what is wrong with saying:
ALM ______________ [Concentration] Harvard University 2005.
In fact, if you do a google of "ALM Harvard University", you'll see plenty of examples. |
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Date: January 19th, 2005 9:42 PM Author: Overrated office Yup, and that's how they tell you to list it. Joe doesn't know what he's talking about. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#1964530) |
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Date: January 19th, 2005 10:56 PM Author: brindle submissive casino http://www.extension.harvard.edu/2004-05/libarts/alm/help/
"How can I present the ALM on my resume?
Harvard University, Master of Liberal Arts in Extension Studies, Concentration in History
Unacceptable: Harvard University, MA in History"
You need to list "IN EXTENSION STUDIES" as part of your citation of the degree, according to this. (In fact, I recalled this from having read this website before and thus DO know what I'm talking about.) |
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Date: January 19th, 2005 11:01 PM Author: Overrated office Considering that I've spoken to these people in person and they've told me this in person, I'd say I'm a better authority on this than you.
What's unacceptable about the unacceptable example is that the guy is saying he has an MA in History, rather than an ALM in History. ALM in History, Harvard University is 100% acceptable, go call them yourself and ask.
Not to mention that the ALM "in extension studies" is only one of SIX distinct ALM programs. Someone who earned an ALM in Biotechnology would be wrong to put "in extension studies" in the degree title because that's not the degree.
Once again, I'd appreciate it if you didn't try to pass yourself as an authority on something you don't know anything about. I don't go around spouting off lies about Caltech degree programs, so I'd appreciate it if you didn't do the same about Harvard. |
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Date: January 19th, 2005 11:03 PM Author: brindle submissive casino Caltech doesn't have a "fake" degree program like HES. They don't even give honorary degrees, in fact.
(Translation: It's still misleadingly dishonest to not mention that, oh, wait, your "Harvard" degree actually comes from the non-selective, non-traditional/"distance learning" community outreach school.) |
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Date: January 19th, 2005 11:15 PM Author: Overrated office Fake eh? Funny that you say that considering that many graduate programs, including HYPSM, routinely accept HES graduates.
You really should get that stick out of your ass. I don't know what your problem with HES is, but it's not doing anyone good to try to post false information on here. Anyone seriously considering this program is going to do their own research on it, and anyone who is willing to do something as simple as just calling their office to ask would be able to disprove your crap.
Speaking of which, I find it ironic thta you feel the need to bash HES while praising Caltech, considering Caltech's very humble origins... starting out as a trade school focusing on teaching arts and crafts to local Pasadena townsfolk. |
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Date: January 20th, 2005 8:04 PM Author: brindle submissive casino Your criticisms are neither correct nor justified. (Who cares what Caltech was a hundred years ago? I'll address it below, but how is the comparison even relevant? How exactly does Caltech circa 1900 have anything to do with how TTT HES circa 2000 is? Does HES have any great plan to become more than a glorified community college?)
Caltech was founding in 1891 as Throop University, a private Christian **four-year university**. It was never a "trade school" (in fact, the original plan called for a law school to be added, too) although it always focused on practical education (the founder, Amos Throop, believed in "learning by doing"). I believe you got "arts and crafts" from the standard Caltech boilerplate description of the school's history; you left out that the actual line describing programs offered reads "from arts and crafts to zoology." (Since I have to spell it out for you, that would be from A to Z.) Not "focusing on arts and crafts." Dumbass.
Regardless, by 1920 Caltech was one of the top science and technology schools on Earth. That's a pretty meteoric rise from a little regional Christian college in just 30 years, wouldn't you say? What was HES 30 years after its founding? What is it today? |
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Date: February 19th, 2005 11:18 PM Author: trip indian lodge preventive strike Joe, I take you to be an honorable guy, so I'll relate to you as if you were one. I think you're being a bit defensive here. The fact is, I think even you must agree that Caltech has a few programs that aren't exactly prominent. The entire Humanities & Social Sciences division (with the possible exception of Economics), you must concede, isn't exactly Caltech's forte. I believe that HSS has been around for a non-trivial length of time, yet ( again, with the exception of economics)I don't see it becoming highly prominent and highly respected anytime soon, do you?
So, using the same logic that you presented here on this forum, does it then follow that HSS is not a 'real' division of Caltech, and that it doesn't grant 'real' Caltech degrees? If somebody goes around saying that he's a Caltech graduate because he has a B.S. degree in Literature from Caltech, does it then follow that he is behaving dishonestly? Technically speaking, he is a Caltech graduate.
The point is that, at the end of the day, those people who graduate from the Harvard Extension School are in fact legitimate graduates from Harvard, because Harvard says so. Like it or not, Harvard has the right to grant degrees to whoever they want, even if some of us don't agree or don't think that those people are worthy. Just like Caltech has the right to grant degrees upon people who complete a program in Literature or some other program in HSS. |
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Date: February 20th, 2005 10:00 PM Author: brindle submissive casino "So, using the same logic that you presented here on this forum, does it then follow that HSS is not a 'real' division of Caltech, and that it doesn't grant 'real' Caltech degrees?"
Not really. Actually, that's being charitable: not at all.
To be a Caltech history (or any HSS) major, you have to ***get admitted to Caltech like everyone else,*** [KEY DIFFERENCE] and ***take the same "core curriculum" as everyone else,*** [KEY DIFFERENCE]--that's two years of hardcore math and science classes, including enough physics and math to be equivalent to a physics major at most schools--and ***be a resident student for 100% of your classes*** (barring study abroad), like everyone else [KEY DIFFERENCE].
Also, ***~100% of your classes will be taught by actual Caltech professors, not visitors, grad students, or adjuncts from neighboring schools.*** [KEY DIFFERENCE] I took something like 20 humanities classes at Caltech. Of these, 17 were with Caltech tenured or tenure-track professors, 2 were an indepedent study course with a tenured professor from Occidental College who has a joint appointment as the conductor of the Caltech orchestra (in music history, a subject area not covered by any of the "regular" Caltech history faculty), and 1 was taught by a Caltech post-doc (in history).
There are basically no similarities with HES. |
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Date: February 20th, 2005 10:33 PM Author: Overrated office "Also, ***~100% of your classes will be taught by actual Caltech professors, not visitors, grad students, or adjuncts from neighboring schools.*** [KEY DIFFERENCE]"
Yeah, wtf does HES think it is having tenured professors from rancid TTTs like MIT teach classes there? |
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Date: February 20th, 2005 11:54 PM Author: brindle submissive casino I think we all know that the majority of the instructors are not from MIT.
[Watch for GTO's anecdote about how he only took classes from Ivy-calibre and above profs.]
And the other criticisms hold even more completely. Bottom line, Caltech's History program is perhaps something like Harvard's Engineering program--definitely not the school's forte, but a legitimate and "regular"/"normal" degree from a traditional, conventional, full-time degree program, fully integrated and subject to the same entrance requirements (and in Caltech's case, graduation requirements, i.e. the Core--don't know if that applies at Harvard or not, but I'm guessing that at least roughly, it does) as the rest of the school in any case.
It's an exceptionally poor comparison. |
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Date: February 21st, 2005 12:12 AM Author: trip indian lodge preventive strike I'm afraid I cannot agree. Consider in particular the Harvard Engineering graduate program (yes, Harvard has a graduate engineering program). Is that legitimate? Well, it certainly isn't as fully integrated nor is it subject to the same entrance requirements as basically any other program at Harvard. The Harvard engineering department decides which graduate students it wants to admit and which ones it doesn't, without any reference to what is happening at the rest of Harvard.
Or, even more poignantly, let's just talk about undergraduate programs. Are you saying that any school that runs multiple undergraduate programs are not 'real'? Take the case of Berkeley. Berkeley's undergrad program actually consists of 5 undergraduate colleges - Letters and Science, Chemistry, Engineering, Natural Resources, and Environmental Design, not to mention a myriad of other 'Schools' (which only serve graduate students and upperclassmen). Each of these 5 Berkeley undergraduate colleges runs its own admissions as well as, basically, its own academic programs. They are not integrated except in the most basic sense. A guy who is admitted to the College of Natural Resources to get a bachelor's degree in Forestry may not take a single class that is the same as a guy who is admitted to the College of Letters and Science to get a bachelor's degree in Art History. There's certainly no identifiable Core that stretches across all 5 colleges at Berkeley, and even some of the Berkeley colleges do not have an identifiable intra-college Core (for example, I am not aware of any specific sequence of classes that one could call the 'Core' that everybody in the Berkeley College of Letters&Science has to take). Furthermore, the entrance requirements at the 5 colleges are completely separate (except what is mandated by the UC general bylaws). A guy might apply to the College of Engineering and get rejected, but if he had instead applied to the College of Environmental Design, he might have gotten in. So, because of all this, are you saying that Berkeley does not grant real undergraduate degrees? |
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Date: February 21st, 2005 2:55 AM Author: brindle submissive casino "There's certainly no identifiable Core that stretches across all 5 colleges at Berkeley, and even some of the Berkeley colleges do not have an identifiable intra-college Core"
Wow, I must have misread your first post--I thought you were trying to tell me that the Harvard Extension School was roughly analagous to certain majors at CALTECH. I didn't see where you mentioned Berkeley. In fact, going back to read again, I have to say that I still don't. Maybe you can help me out?
Going a bit further, however, I'm just wondering if any of those undergraduate Berkeley colleges you mention offer online/open-admissions programs taught largely by non-Berkeley-affiliated instructors? And if so, if some of the "majors"/"concentrations"/whatever in these online/part-time programs have similar names to vastly more competitive and more prestigious programs available at other Berkeley colleges? And finally, if so, if any of the graduates of said open-admissions/part-time/online programs are currently trolling on the XOXO Grad Board?
Thanks. |
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Date: February 21st, 2005 4:05 AM Author: Overrated office Harvard doesn't have any open admissions degree programs. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#2176098) |
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Date: February 21st, 2005 6:26 AM Author: brindle submissive casino Obviously. But the Extension School does.
Q: What is the Extension School's connection with the rest of Harvard?
A: [snip]...the Extension School is distinguished by its program of ***open admission***, part-time study, evening courses, and low tuition.
Q: Do I have to submit undergraduate transcripts to take a course for graduate credit?
A: No. Extension School courses are ***open admission.***
OK. So we've established that the courses themselves are open-admission. The degree programs aren't, you say: well, I say they are.
For the bachelors and (heh) associates degrees, the only non-trivial requirement is completing 4 ***open-enrollment*** courses with a certain grade.
For the master's degrees, the only non-trivial requirements are a bachelor's degree (obviously) and completing 3 ***open-enrollment*** courses with a certain grade.
That's open admissions as far as I'm concerned. Of course you can fail to achieve the necessary grades. (That's possible in any academic program anyplace--I have no doubt it occurs at HES too.) But everyone gets to try.
Somehow I don't think Harvard proper uses an "anyone who wants can take a couple courses and we'll let anyone who gets decent grades stay" system of admissions. |
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Date: February 21st, 2005 5:26 PM Author: trip indian lodge preventive strike Well, like I've been saying, Harvard gets to decide what it wants to do. I have always agreed that HES admissions is easier than admissions at many other places. But if HES wants to do that, then they get to do that.
Again, I would push it back to history and say that before, say, the 1970's, Harvard College was basically 'open admissions' to anybody who had a deep and distinguished last name, like Kennedy or Gore. The same is true for Yale, if you had a last name like Bush or Kerry. Basically, at that time, if you were born in the right family, you got to go to whatever Ivy League school you wanted. Are you saying that those degrees by our famous politicos are also not 'real degrees'? Let's face it, at that time in our nation's history, Harvard admitted quite a few people who weren't particularly studious or accomplished (except for having a certain last name), and in one case (Ted Kennedy), was caught cheating on a college exam. These schools still granted degrees upon all of them. Are you prepared to say that JFK, RFK, and Ted Kennedy do not have 'real' Harvard degrees?
Look, Joe, I am simply curious as to why you are picking on the HES degree programs specifically. I'm sure that any particular attribute in the HES degree programs, we could find a similar attribute in some other degree program either today, or (especially) in recent history. Yet you don't go around picking on those other programs. If you want to condemn HES for having certain attributes, you should condemn ALL programs who have that attribute. |
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Date: February 21st, 2005 5:34 PM Author: brindle submissive casino "I'm sure that any particular attribute in the HES degree programs, we could find a similar attribute in some other degree program either today, or (especially) in recent history. Yet you don't go around picking on those other programs."
It's pretty simple why not, as I've mentioned above: I don't see any other continuing-education students (or supporters) trolling for their programs on the XOXO board.
If students at Berkeley Extension School were here claiming to be real Berkeley students, I'd feel just the same about them. But they aren't. Only you Harvard Extension folks! |
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Date: February 21st, 2005 5:41 PM Author: trip indian lodge preventive strike Look, if you're trying to say that I'm a troll, I'd like to think that I am not one.
I'm just trying to find out why this topic seems to have incensed you so much. The fact is, relatively few people ever manage to complete any of the HES degree programs. I believe HES grants only about 100 or so bachelor's degrees every year, vs. about 1500 from Harvard College, and only about 100 master's degrees vs. several thousand per years from the other Harvard master's degree programs. That's really not that large when you think about it. It's not like HES is churning out giant mobs of bachelor's and master's degree recipients.
To me, if I was really worried about the meritocracy, I would be more concerned about all those people who are getting into Harvard just because Daddy donated a huge pot of cash, or because they're members of royalty in some foreign country, or things like that.
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Date: February 21st, 2005 5:45 PM Author: brindle submissive casino Yes, you are a troll. All the better for HES that not many people finish their degrees--if there were more they couldn't fly under the radar as they do, and people would know to watch for Harvard Extension indicators on a Harvard-touting student's resume!
And who ever said anything about meritocracy, for goodness sake?? Of course I don't think it's good that Harvard (or any school) uses racist admissions policies to boost hundreds of students each year, or "Daddy donated a huge pot of cash" for perhaps a handful. That doesn't change the fact that HES offers essentially open admissions a bit. |
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Date: February 21st, 2005 5:55 PM Author: trip indian lodge preventive strike Well, if you are saying that I am a troll, then I would argue that you are one as well. I am not doing anything substantially different from you.
And it seems to me that your beef is implicitly that it seems to chip away at the meritocracy. Case in point, if for some reason the only people who chose to complete the HES programs were all acknowledged super-geniuses, I doubt that you would care about it as much as you do. Sure, the HES degree programs would have the same admissions policies that they do now, but for some reason, the only people that come are undisputed geniuses, so at the end of the day, I doubt that you'd care. I think the real problem is that you feel that the people who do get degrees from there are not geniuses - hence, the meritocracy.
And besides, I would argue that the HES system is actually BETTER than the other system of people getting in just because Daddy donated a pot of money. After all, at least in the HES case, one could find out whether a Harvard graduate is an HES graduate or not, simply by inquiring into the type of degree or looking at the guy's transcript or so forth. In the case of the guy getting in because of Daddy's money, there is no way of telling. No way. You can't tell. Hence, that guy is far more cloaked than the former guy. That guy will come in touting his Harvard degree, and there is no way for you to distinguish between him and the other Harvard College grads. So you tell me, which is worse? |
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Date: February 21st, 2005 6:02 PM Author: brindle submissive casino "Well, if you are saying that I am a troll, then I would argue that you are one as well. I am not doing anything substantially different from you."
Sure you are. You're claiming that open-admissions continuing education students are somehow equivalent to real regularly-admitted Harvard students. I'm doing nothing of the sort.
I am perhaps an ANTI-troll. I'll accept that moniker. I certainly have been working hard to shoot down the bullshit on this thread.
"Case in point, if for some reason the only people who chose to complete the HES programs were all acknowledged super-geniuses, I doubt that you would care about it as much as you do. Sure, the HES degree programs would have the same admissions policies that they do now, but for some reason, the only people that come are undisputed geniuses, so at the end of the day, I doubt that you'd care. I think the real problem is that you feel that the people who do get degrees from there are not geniuses - hence, the meritocracy."
This line of argument hardly makes any sense at all. YOU are the only one who keeps talking about "Daddy's money" (why use that argument, which might affect 2 or 3 students, by the way, when the affirmative action argument is MUCH more widespread and potent? Are you a URM or something?).
I really don't care. HES is not Harvard College and is not in any way equivalent or even in any meaningful way analagous to Harvard College. THAT is the point.
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Date: February 21st, 2005 6:12 PM Author: trip indian lodge preventive strike When did I say that they were the same. I said that there are some parallels that you can draw.
Let me be clear, I never said that HES is Harvard College nor do I think that HES is equivalent to Harvard College.
On the other hand, I believe that HES is somewhat analogous to some features of Harvard College. More to the point, I believe that HES is analogous to many of the other Harvard graduate schools. The fact is, many of the Harvard graduate schools are really not all that hard to get into, and certainly are easier to get into than Harvard College. Plenty of people that I know who got shot down hard when trying to get into Harvard College were later admitted with very little trouble into various Harvard graduate schools.
Now, if you insist, then we can talk about AA. So would you then say that in the cases when Caltech uses AA, you would oppose that?
Look, the point is that Harvard has the right to admit and to grant degrees to whomever it wants. If Harvard wants to admit somebody who donated a pot of money, that is the right of Harvard. Similarly, if Harvard wants to admit some guys under AA, that is the right of Harvard. Similarly if Harvard wants to run an extension program that is, by your definition, open-admissions, then Harvard has the right to do that. I think THAT is the real point. |
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Date: February 21st, 2005 6:13 PM Author: brindle submissive casino Let's have some full disclosure here. Have you or a family member/friend ever gone to Harvard Extension School?
That is the ONLY thing, other than just being a fool, that could explain this continued trolling. |
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Date: February 21st, 2005 6:27 PM Author: trip indian lodge preventive strike If you want full disclosure, then yes, I have a friend who has gone to the HES school. What's wrong with that?
Now let me ask for some disclosure from you. Other than you being a fool, what is it that you have against HES? I would like an explanation of your continued trolling (or, as you call it, anti-trolling). |
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Date: February 21st, 2005 6:56 PM Author: brindle submissive casino I have no affiliation with Harvard or Harvard Extension School, and nothing against it except the trolls that it seems to spawn.
I would possibly even consider taking a class there if I were in the Boston area and one interested me, but I would NEVER try to pass myself off as a Harvard-anything if I did that, and would laugh at fellow students who did. |
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Date: February 21st, 2005 7:08 PM Author: trip indian lodge preventive strike Look, Joe, I still take you as an honorable guy, and I agree with you in certain aspects. In particular, those people at HES who are trying to pass themselves off as true Harvard College students are beyond the pale. I agree with you that those guys are trolls.
Yet the fact is, there are definitely some good things that HES has to offer, and I would contend that some of the ALM programs in particular are probably, on the whole, more difficult to complete than some of the other Harvard master's degree programs. Yes, the ALM admissions are probably easier, but it seems to me (talking to my friend, who hold 2 degrees from MIT and is clearly no idiot), that the actual completion of the ALM requirements is no cakewalk by any means. Hence, I have no problem with him calling himself a Harvard graduate once and if he completes all the ALM requirements, and is certainly a more worthy Harvard student than some of the other Harvard graduate students out there. Overall, I believe a case could be made that completing an ALM may indeed be harder than, say completing, for example, a MEd. or an MPP at Harvard, even if you factor in the easier ALM admissions. |
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Date: April 10th, 2005 1:47 PM Author: Effete pearl meetinghouse marketing idea You are absolutely correct. Since HES is giving out only a few degrees, it is definitely keeping the Harvard name up to a standard. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#2527989) |
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Date: April 10th, 2005 7:44 PM Author: Tan field wagecucks Just when you thought this thread was nice and dead... (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#2530490) |
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Date: February 21st, 2005 5:16 PM Author: trip indian lodge preventive strike The HES degree programs are in fact analogous, to some extent, to the HSS degree programs at Caltech. They are also analogous to many other programs at many other schools. Hence, I feel that it is entirely appropriate to compare HES to all of them.
Look, the point is that you are going around calling HES a 'non-real' degree program, yet the fact is, HES shares attributes with many other degree programs out there. So are you prepared to call all of them 'non-real' also?
Now, in answer to your specific question, yes, Berkeley offers basically open-admissions classes. The Berkeley Summer School is basically open-admissions, as is the so-called Berkeley 'concurrent' enrollment. Basically, anybody who pays and fills out the paperwork can enroll in those classes. And yes, some of those classes are, for all intensive purposes, online, especially in the lower-division, in the sense that classes are videotaped (and now can be delivered over the Internet). Yes, you are supposed to go to class, but the fact is, plenty of students don't. and just use the videotapes or the online lectures.
And like I said before, the HES degree programs are not open admission. The HES classe are open admissions. But the HES degree programs do have an application process. Granted, it's not a particularly difficult app process, but it is an app process.
http://www.extension.harvard.edu/2004-05/libarts/alm/admit/
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Date: February 21st, 2005 5:17 PM Author: brindle submissive casino As I've said before, HES is analagous to Caltech HSS only in that they each have similar initials, involve classes of some sort, and give you a diploma at the end! There are NO higher-order similarities.
Humanities majors are just like other majors at Caltech. If HES students had to first be admitted to Harvard College and could then choose to do their degree at the Extension School instead, you MIGHT have a point. As it is, flatly, you don't.
And HES DOES essentially have open admissions. Anyone can sign up to take a couple classes. If you get acceptable grades in your classes, you can continue.
That's pretty damn open as far as I'm concerned. (What other program at Harvard works like that?) Under your definition of "open admissions" would they have to mail you your suitable-for-framing diploma as soon as you submit your first check?
Furthermore, UCB concurrent enrollment does NOT seem to offer any degree programs, only "some" Berkeley courses are open to such students, and in fact the program's website states in bold type: "Being accepted for a Concurrent Course does not constitute admission to UC Berkeley as a regular student."
The Berkeley "Faculty Help" website clearly indicates the second class (or worse) status of such students: http://ls.berkeley.edu/FacultyHelpDesk/enrollment/ce.html
As for the Summer Session students, Berkeley is up-front about this matter in their FAQ:
Q: Am I a UCB student if I enroll in Berkeley Summer Sessions?
A: NO [paraphrased]
The next question is interesting too, and sheds even more light on the Berkeley Extension students!
Q: Are classes at UC Berkeley Extension the same as Berkeley Summer Sessions?
A: No. UC Berkeley Extension is geared to continuing education at the college level for adult students. ***Enrollment in Extension does not constitute enrollment in UC Berkeley,*** and Extension courses do not appear on your UC Berkeley official transcript, although many of the classes will transfer for credit.
http://summer.berkeley.edu/mainsite/faqs.html
Very interesting, indeed.... |
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Date: February 21st, 2005 5:35 PM Author: trip indian lodge preventive strike Again, I never said that the analogy extends to all cases. All analogies run into a point where they no longer apply. Otherwise, they wouldn't be an analogy, they would just be the thing itself that you are trying to describe.
And look, I would proffer the following. Harvard Summer School is open admissions. So are the summer schools of a lot of other schools. Many other schools, most notably Berkeley, but also others, offer a thing known as 'Concurrent' Enrollment, which basically allows anybody who is willing to pay to take seats in regular Berkeley classes that are not already taken by regular Berkeley students.
I know one person who took community college classes in Boston for 2 years, as well as Harvard Summer School classes for 2 summers, racked up excellent grades in all of that, and then applied to and was admitted as a transfer student to Harvard College proper. I also know several people who enrolled in Berkeley concurrent and Berkeley summer school for a couple years, and built up an academic record that was good enough to get them admitted as formal Berkeley transfer students. In each case, these people used open-admissions courses to get themselves admitted into a degree program.
The only difference between their situations and the HES one is that the HES degree program formally states that if you get good enough grades, you will be let into the HES degree program. So is that your beef? |
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Date: February 21st, 2005 5:41 PM Author: brindle submissive casino "The only difference between their situations and the HES one is that the HES degree program formally states that if you get good enough grades, you will be let into the HES degree program. So is that your beef?"
Well, leaving aside that Berkeley Extension EXPLICITLY states that its students "aren't real Berkeley students" (sure you want to keep using them as an example?? :-P), I'll point out that you can transfer from anyplace to anyplace. I sat on the Caltech transfer admissions committee last year and we took a couple of students from community colleges.
But that's fricking TRANSFER ADMISSIONS! Trust me, this is a world of difference from "if you get B's you automatically get to continue."
Harvard Summer School courses don't even LEAD to degrees, so obviously they have no proviso that "grades much be such-and-such to continue towards the degree"! If they did have degree programs, I imagine that they (like all degree programs) would require a certain GPA to be maintained or certain pre-determined grades to be achieved. This fact would make them no less open-admissions. |
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Date: February 21st, 2005 5:45 PM Author: trip indian lodge preventive strike So, like I asked, is that your beef?
Yes, you're right, Berkeley extension/concurrent students are not the same as real Berkeley students. But so what? The understanding is that if you do extremely well in Berkeley extension, you stand a better chance of being admitted as a transfer student into Berkeely. That is in fact why a lot of Berkeley extension students are there in the first place.
The same is true for Harvard summer school courses. Yes, they don't directly lead to degrees (unless you are a Harvard College student, then many of those summer courses do in fact help you towards your degree). But it is again the understanding that if you do well in those summer courses, you will boost your chances to transfer into any school, including Harvard College.
So it seems to me that the only difference between that case and the HES case is that in the former case, there is a greater likelihood that you will get into a degree program if you do well, but no guarantee, whereas in the HES case, there is an actual guarantee. In other words, it is the guarantee-part that you don't like, is that it? |
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Date: February 21st, 2005 5:48 PM Author: brindle submissive casino "But it is again the understanding that if you do well in those summer courses, you will boost your chances to transfer into any school, including Harvard College."
Who cares? That's true of doing well in any academic program anywhere. You can transfer from Bunker Hill Community College to Harvard, if you apply and get in, but that doesn't mean that BHCC = Harvard!
My beef is your trolling. Berkeley at least has the courtesy to point out explicitly on their webpage that the continuing-education students aren't "real" Berkeley students. Harvard's materials do all they can to obscure that fact, but if you think HES is in ANY way equivalent or "on the same plane" or "just another college" next to Harvard proper, then I have a very, very prestigious bridge in Brooklyn that I'd love to sell you! |
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Date: February 21st, 2005 6:00 PM Author: trip indian lodge preventive strike Well unlike you, I don't have a problem with your, shall we say, 'trolling'. We are all free to express our opinions. You have your opinions, you have the right to express them, and I respect that. On the other hand, I have my opinions, I have the right to express them, and I think you should respect that. I don't have a beef with your 'trolling'. So what do you have against me?
And, again, I would say that those who are just taking HES classes (but have not been formally admitted into an HES degree program) are not true Harvard students. For example, they are ineligible for most kinds of financial aid, the way that regular students are eligible. Harvard won't grant them most student privileges, the way Harvard would to regular students.
But again, looks like your beef is that you don't like that HES specifically says that they will guarantee your admissions, provided you meet certain goals, whereas in the other cases, there is only a greater likelihood, but no guarantee. |
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Date: February 21st, 2005 6:09 PM Author: brindle submissive casino First of all, I think pulling B's in a Harvard Extension course, which GUARANTEES you the ability to continue for a degree there, would pretty much seal your REJECTION at Harvard College, not give you "a greater likelihood, but no guarantee."
If you're applying to transfer to Harvard College (if it's anywhere as near as competitive as Caltech transfer admissions were the year I was on that committee, which I expect that it is), you'd better have damn near straight A's from even another TOP school, let alone a community college or continuing education program! So no, there is NO EQUIVALENCE WHATSOEVER.
"Well unlike you, I don't have a problem with your, shall we say, 'trolling'."
No, we shan't say trolling. Because I'm not. :-) You might say "anti-trolling" or "troll-thumping" or something else, but until I start religiously advocating for some competing program as you are for Harvard Extension, I can't be a troll.
To give you an example, if I were to suddenly decide that Berkeley Extension was the shit, and go off posting dozens of times about how it's really "better" than some graduates of the regular programs at Berkeley, and better than HES besides, THAT would be trolling.
Point out your trolling is NOT trolling in and of itself. I rather like "troll-thumping" actually. Maybe it'll catch on. |
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Date: February 21st, 2005 6:25 PM Author: trip indian lodge preventive strike The difference is only in 'degree' (no pun intended). I have heard that it isn't exactly a walk in the park to get B's in many of the HES classes.
So again, I get you. Looks like the truth is coming out. You're talking about competitive admissions at top schools like Harvard College and Caltech. So the real problem is that it offends your sense that Harvard should be a very difficult school to get into. So if it wasn't HES, but rather some no-name school that was running HES, then I take it you wouldn't have a problem with it, right?
Let me put it to you more specifically. Let's say you get B's in a bunch of community college classes. You and I both know that while that obviously doesn't put you in contention for transfer to Harvard College, it does put you in contention for transfer to a lot of other schools out there. So if a guy takes a bunch of HES classes, gets B's in them, and then uses them to transfer to, say, UMass, you don't really care, right? The real issue, so it seems, is that that guy would then use them to get into a Harvard degree program. So again, that means that the real issue that you have is in people using HES classes to get into Harvard.
Or more specifically, what if the guy is a super-genius, took HES courses, got A+'s in all of them, and then transferred to Harvard College. Would you still have a problem with that? Probably not. So the problem, to you, is that the B-requirement for getting into a HES degree program is just too low?
And again, there is a greater equivalence (at least to me) is between HES and some of the other Harvard graduate schools. Let's face it, some of the other Harvard graduate schools are really not all that hard to get into. I know one guy who studied EE and while didn't do terrible, didn't do great either. I think his GPA at the end was about a 3.0 or so, maybe less. He applied to lots of prominent engineering grad schools - MIT, Caltech, STanford, etc. and got rejected from all of them. He got admitted to one grad engineering school - Harvard. That, to me, is not substantially different from HES requiring a guy to come and get B's in order to be formally admitted into an HES degree program. In both cases, the guys really aren't that good, but they both got into Harvard anyway. Are they really that different?
And when am I going around religiously touting HES? I have always said that HES is not the same as Harvard College and certainly is not as good. I am saying that it may be right for some people. HES is not as good as the average Harvard program, but then again, a lot of Harvard programs are not as good as the average Harvard program.
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Date: February 21st, 2005 6:58 PM Author: brindle submissive casino "HES is not as good as the average Harvard program, but then again, a lot of Harvard programs are not as good as the average Harvard program."
Very true, but HES is unabashedly the WORST Harvard program (if it's ever overlooked for that title, it's only because so many people wouldn't even consider it a "real" Haravard program). |
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Date: February 21st, 2005 7:13 PM Author: trip indian lodge preventive strike Well, I don't know about that. A lot of people would contend that, say, the Harvard Graduate School of Education is arguably the worst Harvard program. Either that or the Harvard graduate engineering program. I have also heard snickerings around Boston that these 2 programs aren't 'real' Harvard programs either.
But in any case, some program has to be the worst. If HES didn't exist, then it would be some other Harvard program bringing up the rear (if HES is in fact the worst).
Look, Joe, I never said HES was the best at Harvard. It's clearly not as good as Harvard College, or HBS, or some of the other highly stellar Harvard programs. I never claimed that it was as good as them. On the other hand, I am not even entirely convinced that it is the worst. |
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Date: February 21st, 2005 6:06 PM Author: Hairless Bipolar Corn Cake This analogy is ridiculous. Bunker Hill Community College has no affiliation with Harvard. HES obviously does.
You know, if you limited your argument to the bachelor's degree from HES, it would make sense. If you earn an ALB and say you got your bachelor's from Harvard, it implies you went to Harvard College and that's obviously misleading (though the ALB is still a "real" Harvard degree). But the masters is a different story. I don't know anything about Caltech, but Harvard has a ton of different degrees. Why is a masters from HSGE (Education) a "real" Harvard masters but an ALM in biotechnology isn't? None of your criteria about distance learning, faculty, etc. really hold up. And the open admissions thing is silly. You could argue that getting the biotechnology masters is more difficult than getting into and earning a masters in education.
But the "real" vs. "fake" distinction is besides the point. The thing that annoys me is that you appear to have dismissed the entire school and any degrees earned from it because of open admissions. Would you consider actually listening to an opposing view/ My friends who took courses there were smart and most had prior degrees from so-called top colleges. It has solid, challenging courses. Really. Who cares if it doesn't have some nominal selection process? |
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Date: February 21st, 2005 6:10 PM Author: brindle submissive casino I'm sure HES is a good and worthwhile continuing education program. But that is what it is. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#2179030) |
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Date: February 21st, 2005 6:29 PM Author: trip indian lodge preventive strike Then we should leave it at that. Like the guy said, some of the HES master's degree programs are probably harder than some of the other 'more-real' Harvard master's degree programs. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#2179176) |
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Date: February 21st, 2005 6:29 PM Author: trip indian lodge preventive strike Then we should leave it at that. Like the guy said, some of the HES master's degree programs are probably harder than some of the other 'more-real' Harvard master's degree programs. Yet, I don't hear you castigating the offerings of the Harvard Graduate School of Education. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#2179180) |
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Date: February 21st, 2005 6:59 PM Author: brindle submissive casino I haven't noticed any Graduate School of Education trolls on this thread to castigate--have you?? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#2179313) |
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Date: February 21st, 2005 7:13 PM Author: trip indian lodge preventive strike So are you saying if one popped up, you would castigate him? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#2179394) |
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Date: February 20th, 2005 11:57 PM Author: Hairless Bipolar Corn Cake Harvard has many different schools with different faculty, courses, and admissions of varying competitiveness. No one said that an HES student should pass himself off as a graduate of Harvard College. Do you actually know anything about HES? It's not a joke. It has real courses with real standards and it helps a lot of people get into medical school and graduate school. Apparently med schools don't believe that unselective admissions automatically invalidates an education.
I mean, I can be as elitist as the next guy, but this board gets a little ridiculous. I couldn't believe that other posting on the thread where some guy basically suggested that people should go drop 30k on a masters at NYU or Columbia instead of going to HES (with less cost, less risk, possibly more options, and possibly better faculty) just to avoid the crime of, gasp!, attending an unselective degree program.
Before you ask, I don't have a degree from HES or anything. I just know about HES. Here Harvard has this amazing and essentially unique resource--incredibly cheap but good courses with solid or better faculty in a range of fields--and you're bashing it ignorantly because of your own quasi-religious reverence for selective admissions.
Oh, one more thing, when you attack people's hard-earned degrees and they get defensive, well, what the hell do you expect?
Been reading the thread, just had to say my bit.
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Date: February 20th, 2005 11:58 PM Author: brindle submissive casino So you actually think a comparison between choosing to major in the humanities as a regularly-admitted and -attending student at Caltech and being a student in Harvard's open-admission part-time program is sound?
I think the Harvard Engineering comparison above is much more apt. |
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Date: February 21st, 2005 12:19 AM Author: trip indian lodge preventive strike Obviously no comparison holds in toto. Every comparison has to break down eventually.
But the comparison exists to demonstrate a point. Caltech is not monolithic. Caltech has certain degrees and programs that are more respected than others. The point is simply to illustrate that it's rather arbitrary to draw the line and say that certain of a school's programs are 'real' whereas others are 'not real'. Once you start going down that road, then things become a hash. For example, if a guy comes up to me and says that he has a PhD from Caltech, and then I learn that his PhD is actually in Social Science, am I allowed to say that he doesn't hold a 'real' Caltech PhD?
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Date: February 21st, 2005 2:33 AM Author: brindle submissive casino "Caltech is not monolithic. Caltech has certain degrees and programs that are more respected than others."
1) Admissions ARE monolithic at Caltech (a MAJOR, MAJOR difference between Caltech and Harvard Extension School).
2) Caltech, in fact, has only ONE undergraduate degree (the BS), ONE master's degree (the MS), and ONE doctoral degree (the PhD).
3) "For example, if a guy comes up to me and says that he has a PhD from Caltech, and then I learn that his PhD is actually in Social Science, am I allowed to say that he doesn't hold a 'real' Caltech PhD?"
As your conduct on this thread proves quite well, you certainly do have the First Amendment right to say even things which aren't very accurate! So, of course you would be "allowed" to say such a thing. However, considering that the Social Science PhD is not a part-time/open-admissions program like HES (in fact, it's extremely competitive and considered one of the very best programs for many of the more quantitative types of economics and political science research), and has exactly the same structure as all other Caltech PhD's (quals, dissertation committee with one member outside of the department, etc.), I would think such a statement would be rather disingenuous (to say the least).
4) "Obviously no comparison holds in toto. Every comparison has to break down eventually." Certainly true, and your HES/Caltech comparison breaks down pretty much immediately after the "both involve academics of some sort" level. |
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Date: February 21st, 2005 4:06 AM Author: Overrated office HES isn't open admissions. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#2176100) |
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Date: February 21st, 2005 6:44 AM Author: brindle submissive casino Yes, it is. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#2176374) |
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Date: February 21st, 2005 4:57 PM Author: trip indian lodge preventive strike No, actually it is not. The classes are open to the public. However, there is a formal admissions process to get into an HES degree program. Granted, it's not the hardest admissions process in the world, but it is still an admissions process. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#2178625) |
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Date: February 21st, 2005 5:16 PM Author: brindle submissive casino They do, basically. Anyone can sign up to take a couple classes. If you get acceptable grades in your classes, you can continue.
That's pretty damn open as far as I'm concerned. (What other program at Harvard works like that?) Under your definition of "open admissions" would they have to mail you your suitable-for-framing diploma as soon as you submit your first check?
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Date: February 21st, 2005 5:49 PM Author: trip indian lodge preventive strike Well, if you want to call that your definition of 'open admissions', then fine, you have the right to classify anything any way you want. Just let so we are clear, that is not the generally accepted definition of open admissions, which truly means no admissions policy whatsoever.
And I would again argue that in the case of Harvard College, let me ask you this. What other program at Harvard would admit you just because Daddy donated a huge pot of money? Or just because Daddy, grand-daddy, great-granddaddy, and every other relative since the arrival of the Mayflower are all Harvard grads? |
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Date: February 21st, 2005 5:55 PM Author: brindle submissive casino "Just let so we are clear, that is not the generally accepted definition of open admissions, which truly means no admissions policy whatsoever."
Just so we are clear, you're WRONG. I'm sure even Harvard Summer School makes you fill out an "application." Which is all you have to do to start taking Harvard Extension classes, too, by the way.
"And I would again argue that in the case of Harvard College, let me ask you this. What other program at Harvard would admit you just because Daddy donated a huge pot of money? Or just because Daddy, grand-daddy, great-granddaddy, and every other relative since the arrival of the Mayflower are all Harvard grads?"
Who gives a shit? Even Harvard College won't admit a rich black legacy football player who pulled a 1.9 in high school and got a 700 on the SAT. Harvard Extension School would welcome someone like that... as they do all comers. |
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Date: February 21st, 2005 6:05 PM Author: trip indian lodge preventive strike No, I'm not talking about just taking classes. I am talking about being admitted into a degree program. Not everybody can get the minimum grades necessary to be formally admitted into an HES degree program.
And again, HES only welcomes all comers into its classes. If you are not able to fulfill the HES degree prereqs, then you are absolutely not welcome to the HES degree programs. Just because you are taking HES classes doesn't mean that you are admitted into an HES degree program. That rich black legacy football player is welcome to the Harvard Summer School and to every community college out there, and if he does well in all of them, you and I both know that he stands a good chance of getting admitted as a transfer student to Harvard College or any other school out there.
So, again, the problem seems to be that the HES degree program formally guarantees to anybody, who does decently in its open-admission courses, admission into an HES degree program. Whereas in the other cases, there is no guarantee, but only a greater likelihood that he would get admitted. So it is the guarantee-part that you hate.
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Date: February 21st, 2005 6:12 PM Author: brindle submissive casino "So it is the guarantee-part that you hate."
No, as stated above, it's your trolling to make out HES to be something that it's not that I hate!
Pulling B's (in your words "doing decently") in a Harvard Extension course, which GUARANTEES you the ability to continue for a degree there, would pretty much seal your REJECTION at Harvard College, not give you "a greater likelihood, but no guarantee."
If you're applying to transfer to Harvard College (if it's anywhere as near as competitive as Caltech transfer admissions were the year I was on that committee, which I expect that it is), you'd better have damn near straight A's from even another TOP school, let alone a community college or continuing education program! |
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Date: February 21st, 2005 6:34 PM Author: trip indian lodge preventive strike When did I make HES to be more than it is?
Look. Is HES as good and as selective as Harvard College? Of course not. Do I think that people who think that HES is as good as Harvard college are wrong? Yes I do. Is the Harvard College degree harder to get than an HES degree? Of course.
I did not say that doing decently was the same as pulling B's. It is of course true that getting B's at HES would probably not get you into Harvard College. on the other hand, it is very useful to transfer into many other univerisities in the country.
On the other hand, if you pull A's in HES, you do in fact have a greater likelihood of getting into Harvard College. The odds are still low, I agree. But people have done it.
Let me put it to you this way. What if HES were to change its policy right now such that instead of just requiring B's to get admitted, it required straight A's. Would that mollify you? |
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Date: February 21st, 2005 12:03 AM Author: trip indian lodge preventive strike Come now, Joe. You must admit that to say that there are absolutely no similarities between HES and HSS at Caltech, you go too far.
First of all, to get an HES degree, you have to get formally admitted. Now, it is of course true that it is easier to get admitted into an HES degree program than many other Harvard degree programs, the fact is, each Harvard degree program runs its own admissions, and can reject or admit basically whoever they want. For example, I knew a guy who applied to both Harvard Business School and to the Kennedy School in the same year, and was rejected from the former, but admitted to the latter. Each department at Caltech runs its own admission for its graduate students, with little if any coordination with the other departments. When the Caltech physics department decides whether to admit or reject a particular PhD candidate, that department doesn't get together with the Caltech biology department to make a decision.
Also, to use your various requirements for a 'real degree' would invalidate quite a few degrees that are out there. Take your requirement of being a resident student 100% of the time. MIT runs the Systems Design and Management (SDM) program, run jointly out of the Sloan School and the School of Engineering. SDM offers the option to complete almost an entire master's degree remotely. You basically only have to be 'in residence' for 1 semester. Does it then following that MIT's SDM program does not grant 'real' degrees?
Or take Stanford's distance-learning project - the SCPD. This is Stanford's way of delivering remote-learning via videoconferencing, usually as a partnership with tech companies to deliver employee training and lifelong learning. I know a couple of guys who managed to complete their master's degrees from Stanford almost purely through SCPD. They kept their jobs, "attended" Stanford classes remotely through their SCPD. Basically, these guys almost never went to the Stanford campus, and never were 'resident' students at Stanford (was a good deal for them, because they kept their jobs while getting their Stanford degrees, which their companies paid for). But because these guys never went to the Stanford campus, are you saying that their Stanford degrees aren't "real"?
And what of this whole idea of a 'core curriculum'? What are you saying here? Are you saying that any school that doesn't run a core curriculum does not grant real degrees? If that's what you're saying, then you would have to conclude that Stanford and Berkeley don't offer real degrees either because it is quite difficult to identify anything that would truly constitute a core curriculum at either of those 2 schools (in the sense that a core curriculum is an identifiable group of classes that everybody has to take). Rather, both schools have a rather loose set of restrictions about taking a certain number of courses in such-and-such area, another set of courses in another area, but certainly no truly identifiable 'core curriculum' as such. 2 guys might complete bachelor's degrees from Stanford or Berkeley without ever having taking a single overlapping class. So does it then follow that Stanford and Berkeley do not grant 'real degrees' because of the lack of an identifiable core curriculum?
Furthermore, as I said on another thread, the idea of a core curriculum is particularly irrelevant when it comes to graduate students, and HES does have some graduate students. If it is difficult to identify a core curriculum for many undergraduate programs, it is next to impossible to identify one for most graduate schools. I wrote in another post about a guy I knew who had a Master's of SCience from MIT, but had never studied calculus in his life. His MIT degree was from the Sloan School of Management, and the fact is, you don't need to know calculus to graduate from Sloan. Does that mean that you believe that his MIT degree is not 'real'?
Finally, your requirement that 100% of your classes have to be taught by actual profs at the given school, and not visitors, grad-students, or adjuncts would invalidate still more degrees out there. Without naming names, there are plenty of schools, including the elite ones, that run a substantial number of their clases using visitors, adjuncts, and grad-students. Does that mean that you are also prepared to say that anybody who graduated from those schools don't hold 'real' degrees?
Look, Joe, I'm not trying to badger you. My point is that when you castigate HES for doing things that you disagre with, you must admit that HES is certainly not the first nor is it the most egregious institution to do any of those things. Lots of schools offer degree programs to students whose formal residency at the school is limited at best. Lots of schools do not have a truly identifiable core curriculum. Lots of schools teach many of their classes through visitors, adjuncts, or grad-students. Lots of schools run differing admissions policies for various degree programs, some of which are easier than others. If you're going to condemn HES for doing these things, then it's only fair for you to condemn ALL schools that do this. |
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Date: February 21st, 2005 2:48 AM Author: brindle submissive casino I never said most of the things you claim I did in the first part of that long, long post, so I don't feel that they need to be individually addressed. For instance, I never posited a "requirement that 100% of your classes have to be taught by actual profs at the given school"--notice that I listed several examples where this was not the case in my own education. But my sense is that as a student in Harvard College, you're not going to get any instructors who are Tufts profs hired to teach night school part time.
"Each department at Caltech runs its own admission for its graduate students, with little if any coordination with the other departments."
Now, this is interesting... all of a sudden, we're talking about GRADUATE PHD admissions when we couldn't get much traction with the glaring deficiencies in our undergrad admissions argument, eh? I don't believe HES offers a doctrate (A.L.D., they might call it! heh), and Caltech doesn't offer any terminal master's degrees, so this isn't a very useful comparison either. Suffice it to say that there are NO programs at Caltech with anything even approaching open admissions, and I believe that HES is the ONLY program at Harvard with any sort of open admissions.
"If you're going to condemn HES for doing these things, then it's only fair for you to condemn ALL schools that do this."
No problem with that!
When alumni and supporters of all those other extension schools develop trolls on the XOXO grad board trumpeting their "prestigious"/"real degree" part-time/online open-admissions degrees, be sure to let me know and I'll come over and put the smackdown on them too. |
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Date: February 21st, 2005 4:07 AM Author: Overrated office HES isn't open admissions. The acceptance rates to its master's program are around the same as the rates for Harvard GSE's master's programs, if not lower.
The degrees aren't online either. |
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Date: February 21st, 2005 6:43 AM Author: brindle submissive casino "The acceptance rates to its master's program are around the same as the rates for Harvard GSE's master's programs, if not lower."
I have no doubt that a lot of the dumbasses in HES classes aren't smart enough to get the 3 B's you need to continue in the program. HES is open admissions. Is it true that you can't get your degree if you don't get high enough grades in the classes? Obviously. Can anyone sign up to take those classes? Yes.
"The degrees aren't online either."
Very carefully put. While each degree has SOME residency requirement, you yourself noted in a different forum that some degrees are "low residency" (your words) and could be completed with only 2 six-week summer sessions actually in residence at Harvard! http://www.degreeinfo.com/static/forum_archive/8/8547/thread_8547_page_1.html
(Also very interesting that this discussion is all taking place on something called the "Distance Learning Discussion Forum"!)
Further, the HES site itself touts a master's program for which "many courses may be completed online," with only a 1-term residency requirement. |
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Date: February 21st, 2005 7:03 PM Author: trip indian lodge preventive strike Yet at the end of the day, the fact is, the ALM program at Harvard is probably no more difficult to get into and complete that the master's degree program at the Harvard Graduate School of Education. Yet, those GSE degrees are considered to be 'real' Harvard degrees. You might say that it probably isn't that hard to get 3 B's in HES classes, and I would agree with you. On the other hand, to be perfectly honest, it really isn't all that hard to get admitted into the GSE either. The GSE admits quite a few people that I have no problem in calling dumb-asses.
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Date: February 21st, 2005 6:41 PM Author: trip indian lodge preventive strike Well, first off, are you saying that if a Harvard College student were to in fact get some course taught by part-time profs who are hired to teach classes at night, then that would then invalidate that Harvard College student's degree?
Look, the fact is, every school, even Harvard College, brings in part-timers or adjuncts or visitors or other non-affiliated lecturers to come in and teach. HES is no different in this respect.
Also, the fact is, Caltech is such a small school that it is more monolithic than many other schools out there. But the point is that even a small school like Caltech runs different admissions policies for different applicants. The admissions policy for Caltech undergrads is different from the graduate students in the various departments. That is the point. Every school is allowed to run different admissions policies for different applicants if it so chooses.
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Date: February 19th, 2005 11:46 PM Author: trip indian lodge preventive strike I think it's no more 'fake' than, say, Yale giving out degrees in nursing. One could also say that it's misleadingly dishonest for a Yale nursing graduate to say that he/she is a Yale graduate, yet the fact is, technically speaking, they are in fact Yale graduates. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#2168943) |
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Date: February 21st, 2005 2:59 AM Author: brindle submissive casino Is there another Yale "nursing" program of which I'm not aware? One that is part-time, open admissions, non-resident, offers lots of online classes, and is largely taught by non-Yale instructors?
The one I'm familiar with has admissions through the regular undergraduate admissions process, is generally full-time and resident, and is largely taught by Yale instructors. |
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Date: February 21st, 2005 4:09 AM Author: Overrated office "One that is part-time, open admissions, non-resident, offers lots of online classes, and is largely taught by non-Yale instructors?"
HES degree programs aren't online, aren't open admissions, aren't non-resident, don't offer many online classes, and most of the courses are by Harvard instructors. The only thing you got right in that rant is that there is a part time option (and what's wrong with taking classes part time?). |
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Date: February 21st, 2005 6:44 AM Author: brindle submissive casino See above for refutation of most of that. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#2176373) |
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Date: February 21st, 2005 5:08 PM Author: trip indian lodge preventive strike Like I said in another post, the HES degree programs are not open admissions. The HES classes are open admission, but not the degree programs. Furthermore, the Yale nursing classes are open-enrollment. Look it up, if you don't believe me. Consider this quote:
"Nonmatriculated part-time study is available with the course instructor's permission."
http://nursing.yale.edu/Academics/Masters/requirements.html#enrollment
Secondly, the HES degree programs are not non-resident. The correct thing for you to say is that they are 'partially-resident'. The rule is that you must be resident for at least 1 term to complete a degree program.
Thirdly, I don't know about the non-Yale instructor thing, but if it is true that the Yale nursing school is in fact taught by lots of non-Yale instructors, would you then say that it is not a real Yale degree. The fact is, lots of universities out there run programs that are taught largely by people who are not formally affiliated with that university.
Fourthly, the Yale nursing program does in fact have a part-time option. So does that mean that you now saying that the Yale nursing program is not a 'real' Yale degree?
"The course schedule for part-time study is predetermined and will be either three or four years depending upon the specialty. General descriptions of the part-time study schedule can be obtained from the Student Affairs Office or individual specialty offices. "
http://nursing.yale.edu/Academics/Masters/requirements.html#enrollment
I suppose the one difference is the whole online classes thing. But so what? So are you saying that your definition of any 'non-real' degree program is one that offers many (but not all) classes online?
And finally, I'm afraid that you may have to check your facts. There is no 'regular undergraduate admissions process' for the Yale Nursing school, for the simple reason that the Yale Nursing School does not offer an undergraduate degree. The Yale Nursing School only offers graduate degrees. |
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Date: February 21st, 2005 5:15 PM Author: brindle submissive casino "Nonmatriculated part-time study is available with the course instructor's permission."
Come on. That's likely possible at any school on earth, with the instructor's permission!
The key difference is: if they pass 3 courses, do they automatically get to continue in a degree program at Yale Nursing??? |
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Date: February 21st, 2005 6:47 PM Author: trip indian lodge preventive strike First of all, so you are admitting that, perhaps even at Caltech, then with the instructor's permission, I could possibly take a course? If so, then depending on the instructor, one could say that Caltech classes (not the degree programs, but the classes) are, to some extent, open-admission. The difference then seems to be that HES specifically says you can take courses whenever you want, but at the other schools, you still can, but you first need instructor's permission. So the only real difference is the instructor's permission.
And second of all, I have a strong feeling that at the Yale School of Nursing, while the passing of X number of courses in order to get admitted is not formal, it may be informal. For example, I have the suspicion that historically, anybody who has passed X number of YSN courses on a part-time basis with certain decent grades and then applied to the formal YSN degree program has never been rejected. Hence, that is a de-facto guarantee. The difference would then be that HES makes that guarantee explicit. In other words, the HES puts it in writing, whereas the YSN doesn't. But at the end of the day, it's the same effect - people who pass courses with certain minimum grades are admitted.
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Date: February 21st, 2005 7:06 PM Author: brindle submissive casino That logic sucks. Sorry.
And learn not to hit the return key at the end of all of your posts. |
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Date: February 21st, 2005 7:16 PM Author: trip indian lodge preventive strike Well, I'm sorry if hitting the return key at the end of posts bothers you so much.
I'm afraid to say it, but the YSN is not exactly highly selective and has many of the features that you seem to dislike about the HES. You can do it part-time, you can take classes before you matriculate, some of the classes are taught by visitors, many of the classes are, in effect, open-enrollment, it's not that hard to get admitted. |
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Date: January 19th, 2005 7:21 PM Author: up-to-no-good 180 old irish cottage crackhouse Just listing a "Masters" would not be right but the degree is an ALM so listing an ALM from Harvard is perfectly accurate. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#1963414) |
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Date: January 19th, 2005 10:56 PM Author: brindle submissive casino As long as you say "ALM in Extension Studies," yes. See above. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#1965131) |
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Date: January 19th, 2005 11:03 PM Author: Overrated office 1) The ALM in Extension Studies is only one out of six distinct master's degree programs.
2) The people in charge of the ALM program have *explicitly* stated that "ALM in History" is acceptable notation. Call them and ask if you don't believe me. |
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Date: February 19th, 2005 11:44 PM Author: trip indian lodge preventive strike I don't believe that you need to specify 'Extension Studies', just like lots of people don't specify what they major in college. For example, let's say that I hold a bachelor's degree from Stanford in political science, I am not constantly obligated to always say "A.B in political science from Stanford". I believe I am perfectly within my rights to say "A.B. from Stanford" , or even, "Bachelor's degree from Stanford". I believe I hold the right to say or not say what I got my degree "in". (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#2168935) |
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Date: February 21st, 2005 1:14 AM Author: trip indian lodge preventive strike It may be 'sneaky', but it's not clearly unethical. After all, the ALM degree is in fact a Harvard master's degree (the M is for master's). So a guy with an ALM who says that he has a master's degree from Harvard may be trying to be sneaky, but he isn't lying. It's like a guy who says that he has a PhD from MIT, only for you to find out later that his PhD is in political science (yes, MIT has a PhD program in political science). (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#2175116) |
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Date: February 21st, 2005 3:00 AM Author: brindle submissive casino But does he have a PhD from MIT's part-time open admissions (etc.) PhD in political science program? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#2175718) |
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Date: February 21st, 2005 6:52 PM Author: trip indian lodge preventive strike Yet even if MIT decided to in fact run a part-time open-admissions PhD polisci program, that is a nonsequitur. It doesn't take away from the fact that a guy who completed that program would still have a Phd from MIT.
I said it before, I'll say it again. Every school has the right to run whatever programs it wants. If Harvard decides that this is what they want to do, then that is their right. Harvard has the right to grant degrees to whomever it wants. If you really don't like it, then you should take it up with the Harvard administration. |
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Date: January 19th, 2005 8:33 PM Author: Embarrassed to the bone kitchen dysfunction I think it's perfectly acceptable to list it as ALM, Harvard University, 2005. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#1963888) |
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Date: January 19th, 2005 8:35 PM Author: Maniacal bateful chad gaming laptop It's certainly not as dishonest as getting an A.B. from Extension and listing A.B. Harvard Univ., since Extension is the only Harvard school that offers the ALM. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#1963914) |
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Date: January 19th, 2005 8:48 PM Author: Embarrassed to the bone kitchen dysfunction Neither is dishonest. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#1964058) |
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Date: January 19th, 2005 8:54 PM Author: Maniacal bateful chad gaming laptop Well, c'mon, saying you have an A.B. from Harvard is a little deceptive. They're all real Harvard courses, of course, but your diploma says HES. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#1964118) |
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Date: January 19th, 2005 9:38 PM Author: Overrated office Actually, it says Harvard University. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#1964496) |
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Date: January 19th, 2005 10:00 PM Author: Maniacal bateful chad gaming laptop My mistake. But shouldn't there be a distinction? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#1964689) |
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Date: January 19th, 2005 10:26 PM Author: Embarrassed to the bone kitchen dysfunction Talk to Harvard about it. Both Harvard College and HES are part of Harvard. If you go to HES you've taken Harvard classes and earned enough credits for graduation. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#1964904) |
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Date: January 19th, 2005 10:27 PM Author: Arrogant scourge upon the earth i thought it was a ALB or something you get - i think there is a difference
regardless they are all real |
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Date: January 19th, 2005 10:43 PM Author: Overrated office Yeah, there is a difference, just like there is a difference between Harvard Law and Harvard Business and Harvard Dental. Degrees are obviously different, but they're all a part of Harvard University. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#1965014) |
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Date: January 19th, 2005 10:52 PM Author: Arrogant scourge upon the earth yes, true
harvard college gives the ab, HES the ALB |
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Date: January 19th, 2005 10:56 PM Author: Overrated office Not just the ALB... The ALB is actually one of the smaller programs there. ALM and certificate enrollment is significantly higher, hell the post-bac diploma program might also outnumber ALB enrollment. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#1965128) |
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Date: January 19th, 2005 11:31 PM Author: Arrogant scourge upon the earth true - something like 1 in 40 acually earn a degree from their undergrad studies there (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#1965365) |
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Date: January 19th, 2005 11:36 PM Author: Overrated office Yup, the program is overwhelmingly dominated by non-degree students and graduate students... The graduate programs in particular are very popular among Boston professionals. That's why I always find it funny when people focus on the ALB... The ALB is to HES as a History major is to Caltech (someone who only majored in history that is). (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#1965387) |
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Date: January 19th, 2005 11:46 PM Author: brindle submissive casino Not really.
To be a Caltech history major, you have to get admitted to Caltech like everyone else, and take the same "core curriculum" as everyone else, and be a resident student for 100% of your classes (barring study abroad), like everyone else.
There are basically no similarities. |
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Date: January 19th, 2005 11:53 PM Author: Overrated office I was speaking in terms of how rare it is. The ratio of pure history majors at Caltech is likely equivalent to the ratio of ALB students at HES. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#1965512) |
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Date: January 19th, 2005 11:56 PM Author: brindle submissive casino That's an odd comparison, then, considering that one is a regular major at a traditional university, and one is a particular degree program within a non-trad/distance-learning school.
Caltech history students are BS-seeking students just like all the other majors.
Also, a large proportion of what Caltech history majors do exist are currently university professors. Can that be said of HES ALB's?
http://www.aichi-gakuin.ac.jp/~jeffreyb/Caltech.history.html |
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Date: January 20th, 2005 12:00 AM Author: Overrated office Your ignorance shows with every post. Keep it up, it's a real good laugh. Though honestly, I never would've pegged you as someone with an educational inferiority complex.
I guess it must really bug you to know that multiple graduates of that "nontrad / distance learning institution" are currently earning PhDs at schools such as MIT, Princeton, Yale, Stanford, and even your own University of Michigan. |
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Date: January 20th, 2005 12:02 AM Author: brindle submissive casino Huh? I'm just confused why over thousands of possible analogies, you chose Caltech history majors, which is (as demonstrated above) not a particularly apt comparison. (And, I suspect, was chosen by you to try to equate the two programs in some way--which needs refuting ASAP.)
Why not just say "the percentage isn't very big"? |
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Date: February 10th, 2005 2:55 PM Author: high-end yellow piazza Subject: Yes it is acceptable that's what we were told! I attended a Information Session on January 25, 2005 for ALM in IT (MIS), when we asked the question we were told to list as ALM or Master of Liberal Arts in IT (MIS), Harvard University, 2005.
Here is what he showed us, <i> What does the transcript/diploma say? Any student who completes a course at the Extension School can get a transcript listing their grade(s). Because the Extension School does not distinguish between on-campus and distance students, the transcript does not specify if a course is completed via distance education or not. Students who complete a degree or certificate program through the Extension School receive a diploma. All Harvard University diplomas list the university (Harvard), the school (Extension), and the type of degree but not the concentration of study. Harvard diplomas are in Latin, and therefore not generally useful for describing a course of study. It is appropriate to list a degree or certificate obtained by the name used in the program description, and additional detail can be obtained by requesting a transcript of coursework. </i>
http://www.extension.harvard.edu/2004-05/DistanceEd/help/#diploma |
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Date: January 19th, 2005 9:38 PM Author: Overrated office False.
Please don't post something as "fact" when you don't know what you're talking about. |
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Date: January 19th, 2005 10:58 PM Author: brindle submissive casino http://www.extension.harvard.edu/2004-05/libarts/alm/help/ True. Please pull your head out of your ass. Note the EXTENSION STUDIES below.
"How can I present the ALM on my resume?
Harvard University, Master of Liberal Arts in Extension Studies, Concentration in History
Unacceptable: Harvard University, MA in History"
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Date: January 19th, 2005 11:07 PM Author: Overrated office For the third time,
1) That's one master's degree program out of six distinct ones.
2) Time after time I've been told that ALM in (concentration) is acceptable notation. Why is this such a hard concept for you to grasp? If you think I'm lying call them. |
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Date: January 19th, 2005 9:14 PM Author: cracking honey-headed corner gay wizard don't substitute it for a traditional degree (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#1964266) |
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Date: January 19th, 2005 9:40 PM Author: Overrated office It is a "traditional degree." (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#1964506) |
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Date: January 19th, 2005 10:58 PM Author: brindle submissive casino No, it's definitely not. Don't make me get NYCFan over here to school you. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#1965150) |
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Date: January 19th, 2005 11:20 PM Author: Maniacal bateful chad gaming laptop I have only this to say: there is certainly a lot of snippiness on this thread. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#1965309) |
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Date: January 19th, 2005 11:25 PM Author: Overrated office There always is on these sorts of threads, because you'll always get some dipshit to show up and post false or misleading information, either out of sheer ignorance or just to fan the flames. I'd like to think that Joe was just mistaken, but from his other posts it looks like he has a real problem with the school and isn't willing to discuss things rationally and objectively. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#1965327) |
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Date: January 19th, 2005 11:27 PM Author: Maniacal bateful chad gaming laptop Hell, I think HES is great. The courses are the real deal, but it seems like a lot of people are misinformed. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#1965340) |
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Date: January 19th, 2005 11:29 PM Author: Embarrassed to the bone kitchen dysfunction I think a lot of people go haywire because they fear that someone HEAVEN FORBID might think the Harvard ALB is more "prestigious" than their UG degree. People need to relax.
HES is obviously a REAL part of Harvard. It exists - it surely isn't fake. The admissions requirements are not stringent but the garduation reqirements are the same as for the BA. It's not like anyone can get the degree. |
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Date: January 19th, 2005 11:33 PM Author: Arrogant scourge upon the earth joe does have a lot of complexes (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#1965371) |
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Date: January 19th, 2005 11:38 PM Author: Overrated office What I find hilarious is that it's always the people who have absolutely no affiliation with Harvard, like Joe, who get all bent out of shape about it. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#1965398) |
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Date: January 19th, 2005 11:44 PM Author: brindle submissive casino NYCFan? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#1965438) |
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Date: January 20th, 2005 10:15 AM Author: exhilarant unholy affirmative action To the trained eye, ALM is just kinda like a joke degree. It's the cash cow of the university. Whenever I read a file that as an ALM from Harvard (or Harvard Extension ... however they choose to list it) I just don't pay much attention to it. GTO is just really sensitive about the topic because he has an ALM and wears his little Harvard watch around to prove that he went to 'Harvard' so that people will think he is all important.
Joke's on him.
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Date: January 20th, 2005 10:15 PM Author: up-to-no-good 180 old irish cottage crackhouse I don't know if you are being quite fair. From what I understand, some of the theses prepared are of extremely high quality so why wouldn't you give it as much weight potentially as any other masters degree?
Say someone had a BA in English but then wanted to study for a Ph.D in poly sci. Why doesn't the fact that they went and got an ALM in Government from Harvard help their cause? Especially if the thesis was was well done. |
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Date: January 20th, 2005 10:19 PM Author: brindle submissive casino "why wouldn't you give it as much weight potentially as any other masters degree"
First of all, because most other master's degree programs are selective. Certainly all of Harvard's "real" MS and MA programs are, even the "cash cows." |
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Date: January 21st, 2005 12:28 AM Author: up-to-no-good 180 old irish cottage crackhouse Admissions may not necessarily be that selective but completion with good grades still says something. To use an easy example, someone may have just missed out on getting into Cal Tech but if they get high grades at UCLA, aren't they the stronger candidate over the mediocre Cal Tech student? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#1971685) |
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Date: January 21st, 2005 12:40 AM Author: brindle submissive casino Candidate for what? Grad school? A job? How high a GPA is "mediocre" at Caltech and how high a GPA is "high" at UCLA? Did the Caltech student take advantage (as 80+% of Caltech students do) of SURF or one of the other easily-available (even to low-GPA students) research opportunities?
And finally, HES is *hardly* UCLA, and I don't think HES students are very often students who "just missed getting into" Harvard. |
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Date: January 21st, 2005 2:23 AM Author: up-to-no-good 180 old irish cottage crackhouse Candidate for anything - grad school admissions, a job, law school, etc.
Remember, you still have to get into a degree program in HES. It requires a minimum of a B grade in the prereq classes. How hard is that? I have no idea but the point is that it is not open admissions or anything and it still takes effort to get through the program.
Face it, someone who gets an ALM from HES is a bona fide Harvard alum. There's no doubt that it can help you get into a Ph.D program (one common use of the degree) and I imagine its actually a pretty good way to get into a Ph.D program at Harvard since you'll have a good chance of working with or studying under Harvard faculty. |
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Date: January 21st, 2005 2:53 AM Author: brindle submissive casino OK, "candidate for anything." I'll just speak from personal experience, then. In my class at Caltech, there were 7 aerospace engineering majors. Obviously, not all of us were at the top of our department. Some of us were "mediocre" and one of us was dead last. Of those 7, 6 of us ended up at the following grad schools: MIT, MIT, Stanford, Michigan, Princeton, Purdue (the 7th guy got a job, I think with Lockheed, but I don't know him very well, actually).
Those are all top 5 or 6 US News programs for aero. Frankly, I'd call that a pretty damn impressive result for Caltech (plus, note that the Michigan guy also got into MIT, Stanford, etc., and the Purdue guy also got in to Michigan, so not everyone even picked the "best" program, per se). And obviously some of us were in the middle of the pack.... How'd it happen? In a word: research. The quality of the research experiences available to even middle-of-the-road undergrads is a genuine and intrinsic advantage of Caltech.
I don't know about comparable results at UCLA or HES. |
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Date: January 21st, 2005 2:55 AM Author: up-to-no-good 180 old irish cottage crackhouse Okay, but the fact of the matter is that there are more than a few EE majors at UCLA who may not have gotten into Cal Tech (or may have, people choose UCLA over Cal Tech, I know this fact personally, because they prefer the atmosphere at UCLA) as undergrads but who got into better grad programs than some of their Cal Tech counterparts.
What's the median LSAT at Cal Tech? It's 163 at MIT so I'll bit it's around that for Cal Tech. THat's solid but it isn't anything to brag about. My point is that just because you get into Cal Tech doesn't mean that you will end up being a better "candidate" than other grads of other schools. |
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Date: January 21st, 2005 3:00 AM Author: brindle submissive casino I wouldn't be surprised if it's higher than 163 for Caltech, actually. Only about ~5 people take it each year... in my class, the 4 people going to law school ended up at Stanford, Stanford, Georgetown/Boalt+$$ (got into both but I don't remember which one he picked), and UVa+$$. That implies a pretty good LSAT average, right? All of these people had the standard engineering-depressed GPAs, too.
But trust me, the last thing Caltech would brag about would be their LSAT average... the powers-that-be could care less about law school, I think. They might brag about grad school placements, though.
And none of this even touches the fact that HES and UCLA are not very comparable. |
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Date: January 21st, 2005 3:03 AM Author: up-to-no-good 180 old irish cottage crackhouse Okay, it's a small sample size so it probably swings high and low. Still, even at a school like Princeton, the median (or is it average?) is only 164. The highest average/medians I've heard are 165 at Harvard and 164 at Princeton and Yale. Even at MIT, it is only 163 so over a big enough sample size, how could Cal Tech's realistically be above 164/165? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#1972075) |
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Date: January 21st, 2005 3:07 AM Author: brindle submissive casino Hmm... because Caltech also has the highest SAT average/median/whatever, and the students are just good at standardized tests? Because law school is an even-less-typical choice at Caltech (4 was a LOT to go to law school for us in one year... the previous two years, I think it was 2 each) than it is at MIT, so you have to want it really bad to even consider it?
And none of this has a bit to do with HES, I'll point out again. |
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Date: January 21st, 2005 3:13 AM Author: up-to-no-good 180 old irish cottage crackhouse But I doubt you have the highest verbal SAT average/median. I have a feeling that there is at least some correlation between SAT verbal and the LSAT.
True none of this has to do with HES directly but why do you say that you are pointing it out again? When did you point it out before?
My point is that people sometimes prove themselves later in life. Someone who does well in an HES program may be doing so in an effort to show themselves to be a strong candidate for a Ph.D program. There is no doubt that the ALM can be a good thing for Ph.D admissions and Ph.D admissions committees can look upon strong performance in the program as a positive thing. There's a history of the ALM being a springboard. If a Ph.D committee can recognize it, then it seems to undercut your views of the ALM. That's been my point the whole time. |
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Date: January 21st, 2005 3:17 AM Author: brindle submissive casino "But I doubt you have the highest verbal SAT average/median."
You'd be surprised. It's either first or second, I believe. I'll go look it up now.
EDIT:
Verbal 25-75 %ile for selected schools, and percentage of students scoring 700+ (from USNews 2005):
Caltech: 700-780 (77.0%) Harvard: 700–790 (76.3%) Yale: 690–790 (74.0%) Princeton: 680-770 (71.0%) Stanford: 660–770 (63.2%) MIT: 680–760 (63.0%) |
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Date: January 21st, 2005 3:25 AM Author: up-to-no-good 180 old irish cottage crackhouse Also, the difference in SAT scores between Cal Tech and Harvard, Yale, Princeton and MIT are fairly neglible. And you know that the Cal Tech folks are almost all 800 Maths so they must be a tad lower in the verbals.
By the way, care to respond to any of my substantive points about HES? |
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Date: January 21st, 2005 3:32 AM Author: brindle submissive casino See the actual data above. Actually, Caltech is well ahead in Math and NOT a "tad lower" in Verbal at all (you should know that statistically, what you just did--adding averages--is a no-no). I don't see why that SAT advantage shouldn't translate into an at least correspondingly-high LSAT average, frankly.
I've been addressing your "points" (more like, speculation with no facts attached) about HES all along, but I'll do so again in a nice succinct manner, with an SAT-style analogy for old time's sake:
Harvard : HES :: Caltech : ??
The answer sure as hell ain't UCLA. (In fact, there is no answer, thank goodness--no way to get a "backdoor" Caltech BS.) |
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Date: January 21st, 2005 3:36 AM Author: up-to-no-good 180 old irish cottage crackhouse Stick to being a test engineer for Lockheed Martin jets or writing manuals for Airbus. You have not refuted any of my points. Saying so doesn't make it so. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#1972115) |
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Date: January 21st, 2005 3:40 AM Author: brindle submissive casino I just refuted your claim about Caltech's SAT scores (numerically--hard to argue with that one!). I've refuted your claim that "mediocre" students at Caltech somehow do poorly in graduate admissions. And I've refuted (as if it even needed it) the very novel notion that somehow UCLA is "Caltech's HES."
Yes, there are SOME good and talented students at HES, I'm sure. There are SOME good and talented students at virtually every TTT. The fact that JAV's prodigy son goes to a TTT doesn't make it any less a TTT. Heck, there are SOME good and talented people who got their "degrees" from internet degree mills. There are SOME students from TTT's who get stellar grades and go on to good grad programs. Doesn't change a thing.
And if you think "writing manuals" is in my future, think again. Nice try, though.
Now I'm going to bed. My time isn't worth trying to reason with you. |
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Date: January 21st, 2005 3:52 AM Author: up-to-no-good 180 old irish cottage crackhouse You have reading comprehension problems. You refuted points that I did not make. William F. Buckley once famously and angrily said to a debate opponent to stop attributing positions to him for purposes of refuting them. I did not make any claims about mediocre Cal Tech students or the poor state of Cal Tech graduate admissions. Do not attend law school. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#1972130) |
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Date: January 21st, 2005 4:04 AM Author: brindle submissive casino You now: "I did not make any claims about mediocre Cal Tech students"
You THEN: "aren't they the stronger candidate over the mediocre Cal Tech student?"
Me: Not usually. "Mediocre" Caltech students generally still get into the top graduate programs [example given.]
You now: "I did not make any claims about...the poor state of Cal Tech graduate admissions."
You THEN: "Just because you get into Cal Tech doesn't mean that you will end up being a better 'candidate' than other grads of other schools."
Me: No, it doesn't NECESSARILY mean that in every single case. (Duh.) But it USUALLY does.
You: "Do not attend law school."
Me: Oooh, now I'm scared. You mentioned LAW SCHOOL! Dear Lord, it must a magical place, because God knows there aren't any dumbass lawyers out there (hey, I think you're well on your way!) And do you really want to get into a pissing contest over academic credentials? Lame.
pwned. QED. Roma locuta, causa finita. The fat lady is singing. Et cetera.
Goodnight. |
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Date: January 21st, 2005 4:45 AM Author: up-to-no-good 180 old irish cottage crackhouse I'm tired of bitch-slapping you around but let me just point out that you were the one who never refuted my points. You are also reading some of my points out of context. My statement about mediocre Cal Tech students is not to say that Cal Tech students are mediocre when viewed against the average student. I'm just saying that the "middle" (maybe that was the better term) was not necessarily a stronger candidate than a good student at UCLA (or a similar school). I never said Cal Tech students do poorly in grad school admissions anywhere so I don't know where you got that from. Sorry, I bitch-slapped you good in this but I'd have to say it has been a waste of time. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#1972183) |
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Date: January 21st, 2005 4:51 AM Author: Topaz misunderstood abode wow.... you got owned worse than i've seen in a long time.
good show, joecaltech! |
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Date: January 21st, 2005 1:46 PM Author: up-to-no-good 180 old irish cottage crackhouse You are obviously joecaltech or you also suffer from the same reading comprehension problems.
Since when does a statement that a Cal Tech grad is not necessarily a stronger candidate than a UCLA grad who does well mean that I am making a statement that Cal Tech has poor graduate admissions?!
Also, JoeCalTech was the one who at least implied that a Harvard ALM had no weight when it obviously is the difference for some folks getting into certain graduate programs. I refuted that point and never got a substantive response from JoeCalTech. |
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Date: January 21st, 2005 2:16 PM Author: brindle submissive casino "JoeCalTech was the one who at least implied that a Harvard ALM had no weight"
Now where on EARTH did I say that? All I said was that it didn't have the same weight as a non-HES Harvard master's. You've yet to refute that. You've made many arguments that it has "some weight" and NO arguments that it isn't inferior to a real Harvard master's.
"when it obviously is the difference for some folks getting into certain graduate programs."
And where on EARTH did you demonstrate that? You just flat-out said it with nothing to back it up. To quote you: saying it doesn't make it so. How can I give you a "substantive response" when you haven't even taken a substantive position?
I am the only one who has used any hard FACTS at all in this argument (to demostrate that your intuition about Caltech's SAT scores was wrong, and to demonstrate thet "mediocre" Caltech students still get into top grad schools). You can blather on about reading comprehension all you want (did they teach you to use ad hominems when you have no real argument in law school, or is that just your personal touch?), but it doesn't change the fact that you've done essentially nothing but give your opinion, over and over. |
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Date: January 21st, 2005 3:07 PM Author: Overrated office ""when it obviously is the difference for some folks getting into certain graduate programs."
And where on EARTH did you demonstrate that? You just flat-out said it with nothing to back it up. To quote you: saying it doesn't make it so. How can I give you a "substantive response" when you haven't even taken a substantive position?"
Actually if I may chime in, the program has been instrumental in getting quite a few people into Harvard PhD programs. Many research assistant positions are available to ALM candidates, and every ALM candidate must do a thesis with a tenured Harvard professor. Several articles have been written in the HES newsletters about ALM candidates using these connections to get into Harvard PhD programs or comparable programs (in fact I believe the ALM office is currently conducting an indepth study to see how common this is -- lately they've been *really* pushing PhD placement, and from what I've read it seems like their grads are pretty successful at getting into top graduate programs). |
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Date: January 20th, 2005 12:16 PM Author: Tan field wagecucks Extension Students occasionally cross register in regular Harvard College classes, so as a Harvard undergrad I've had some exposure to them. In one of my sociology seminars a few years ago, there were two extension students. One was admittedly fairly bright, and I'd assumed he was a regular undergrad until he mentioned he wasn't at the end of the term. The other student, 40-year old "Fred," stuck out like a sore thumb from the very beginning, and not just because of his age.
He was a rather nice, amicable guy. Unfortunately, he was also a complete moron, and one of the worst, most blatant "gunners" I've ever encountered. At nearly every opportunity or break in the class conversation, he would immediately shoot up his hand. When the professor begrudgingly called on him, he would first pause in silence, as if poised to articulate some brilliant pronouncement. But he would then inevitably break his silence with some completely bizarre or asinine comment. I could almost hear the collective mental groan of my classmates when he did this. Now, don't get me wrong, all students (yes, even Harvard College students) occasionally come out with a dumb remark. But no one else, in all the college classes I had ever taken, was able to hit the bull’s-eye of rhetorical idiocy as keenly or skillfully as Fred did.
This guy would also kiss the professor's ass like no one else I’d ever seen. He would rush like a wide-eyed golden retriever to help the professor with his projector or briefcase, even though he clearly didn't need the help. Every time the professor would make a comment, no matter how trivial, he would exclaim "great point, prof!" or some equally irritating platitude. I never saw Fred again after the seminar ended. But after it did, my well warranted contempt for the extension school endured.
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Date: January 20th, 2005 12:19 PM Author: exhilarant unholy affirmative action was it GTO? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#1967298) |
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Date: January 20th, 2005 7:50 PM Author: brindle submissive casino "But no one else, in all the college classes I had ever taken, was able to hit the bull’s-eye of rhetorical idiocy as keenly or skillfully as Fred did."
And to your own skills in rhetoric, sir, I take off my hat. That line made me laugh out loud! |
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Date: January 21st, 2005 7:24 AM Author: Overrated office I don't dispute that there are some gunner idiots at HES. You'll find idiots like that everywhere though... The biggest and most annoying gunner in my section at Penn Law is a Harvard College graduate. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#1972260) |
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Date: January 21st, 2005 3:09 PM Author: brindle submissive casino But he's probably still pretty smart, despite being a gunner, right? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#1973952) |
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Date: January 21st, 2005 3:12 PM Author: Overrated office Well, by very definition a gunner is someone who thinks she's smart but really isn't... hence why people get very pissed when they talk in class and slow everything down.
That said, strictly in terms of GPA/LSAT, this person is smart -- then again, if the HES gunner in question got approval to take classes at HC, he's probably smart in that regard too. |
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Date: January 21st, 2005 3:21 PM Author: brindle submissive casino But I would still venture, not as smart as your average high-GPA Harvard College student.
In particular, he might be merely "hard-working," while we know that the Harvard College student is both hard-working and also very likely to have done well on college entrance tests that are reasonably proxies for intelligence. |
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Date: February 19th, 2005 11:30 PM Author: trip indian lodge preventive strike True, he probably isn't as smart.
But let's be perfectly honest here. There is a small minority of students even in Harvard College who really don't deserve to be there under any consideration of merit. Let's face it. Some people get into Harvard because they're legacies, or because they're children of famous/powerful people, or because Daddy donated a big chunk of change. Hence, the admissions policies of Harvard College aren't exactly pristine.
Hence, if you want to criticize HES for allowing in students who don't exactly have a lot of merit, then I think it's only fair that you should criticize ALL Harvard students who got in for reasons that have nothing to do with merit. |
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Date: February 20th, 2005 2:58 PM Author: Tan field wagecucks "Some people get into Harvard because they're legacies, or because they're children of famous/powerful people, or because Daddy donated a big chunk of change."
True, but the number of mediocre people who get in mainly because they fall in this category is pretty small, probably less than 5% of the student body. The number who of mediocre people at HES, however, maybe over 50%. |
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Date: February 20th, 2005 3:47 PM Author: trip indian lodge preventive strike You're right, but don't you see that now we're starting to go down the dangerous road of judging that certain people at Harvard are more "Harvard-worthy" than other Harvard people.
The fact is, Harvard is a large school that runs many different degree programs, and each of the programs caters to different people. And some of those programs will have students who are less accomplished and less competent than others. Harvard is not a monolithic organization where everybody gets in under the same conditions of 'merit'. I don't want to sound harsh, but,for example, the students in the Harvard Medical School are probably more competent, on average, than the students in the Harvard Dental School, because the fact is, a lot of dental students (not all of them, but a lot) are people who couldn't get into medical school, and dental school is their backup career, whereas relatively few people who get into med-school turn it down to go to dental school. Not only that, but Harvard Medical School is arguably the best medical school in the world, but the Harvard Dental School, while good, is not as prominent in the dental world as the HMS is in the medical world.
The same could be said for the Harvard Graduate School of Education. The fact is, Education schools in general (not just Harvard's but all of them), for various reasons, tend to bring in students who really aren't that strong, relatively speaking. If one were to take all the graduate students at Harvard and rank their competence by school, I wouldn't be surprised in the least to find that the Education students would be near the bottom. Again, this isn't just specific to Harvard, but seems to be a general trend among Education schools. Education schools have often been criticized for their relatively low admissions standards (relative to other graduate schools) and lack of rigor.
I would also point to the Harvard graduate programs in engineering. Let's face it - Harvard does not run the best engineering programs in the country, and consequently does not have the best engineering graduate students in the country. The best engineering graduate students in the world tend to want to go to MIT. If a prospective engineering graduate student gets admitted to both Harvard and to MIT, and if the stipend is the same, then the odds are that he's going to MIT.
Speaking of MIT, I will end with an anecdote. I just met one guy who has a Master's of Science degree from MIT. Yet, he has never studied calculus before in his life, and is absolutely terrible with math. Ridiculous, you might say? How can you hold a Master's of Science degree from MIT and not know math? Well, consider the details. His Master's of Science degree is in Management Science at the MIT-Sloan School of Management, which is one of the top business schools in the country (probably not as good as HBS, but still one of the elite). His master's degree thesis was about marketing and brand-management. The fact is, you don't need to know a whole lot of math to get admitted to Sloan, to complete Sloan classes, and to write a Sloan thesis (just like you don't need to know a whole lot of math to get into and graduate from HBS - and I personally know plenty of HBS grads who can't do math). It obviously helps to know a lot of math, but you don't absolutely need it.
Yet the fact is, I would find it hard to say that that guy isn't a 'real' MIT graduate, or that his Master's of Science isn't a 'real' Master's of Science. MIT says that he's a graduate and that he holds a Master's of Science, and MIT is the final arbiter of who gets to say that. By the same token, Harvard says that people who graduate from the School of Education or the Dental School or the Engineering programs are bonafide Harvard graduates. Who are we to argue otherwise? Harvard has the right to decide who are its graduates are who aren't. So if Harvard wants to grant degrees through HES, then Harvard hast he right to do that.
If people don't like it, then people should be taking it up with the Harvard administration. People should be requesting that Harvard close down or beef up the HES degree programs. Just like if somebody doesn't like it that the Harvard engineering programs are not as prominent as MIT's, then they should demand that Harvard beef up those programs or shut them down. |
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Date: March 6th, 2005 9:14 PM Author: fragrant library Subject: I don't see why you'd claim "Master's of Science" from MIT When you could say "Master's in Management Science" from Sloan.
In some ways, that's much more impressive. I don't think it's analogous to HES at all. Sloan is, btw, hard to get into, although graduate studies there don't require strict math classes. |
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Date: February 20th, 2005 9:50 PM Author: brindle submissive casino "Hence, if you want to criticize HES for allowing in students who don't exactly have a lot of merit, then I think it's only fair that you should criticize ALL Harvard students who got in for reasons that have nothing to do with merit."
No problem!! I'll happily do that. Unfortunately, if you do that too much in this PC era and you'll get called a racist!
"Let's face it. Some people get into Harvard because they're legacies, or because they're children of famous/powerful people, or because Daddy donated a big chunk of change. Hence, the admissions policies of Harvard College aren't exactly pristine."
And you didn't even mention, somehow, the largest group getting the largest (by far) individual and collective boost: "underrepresented" minorities. All the other groups you've mentioned above receive benefits that completely pale in comparison to this group.
Trust me, I've no problem criticizing the admissions policies of the many colleges and universities out there that use affirmative action in this manner, including Harvard College. |
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Date: February 21st, 2005 12:21 AM Author: trip indian lodge preventive strike Then you would have no problem in criticizing Caltech when it uses affirmative action as well? Granted, Caltech may not use it as much as certain other schools, but I think we both know that Caltech does use it sometimes. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#2174791) |
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Date: February 21st, 2005 3:05 AM Author: brindle submissive casino Red herring alert!
That aside, Caltech uses affirmative action in granting scholarships, but NOT admissions. I certainly don't think Caltech ought to offer minorities special scholarships, but as the alternatives in our current politically-correct world would be to either have lower admissions standards or bear the brunt of much criticism for inadequate "diversity," I'll certainly choose the lesser of two evils.
But what on earth does my personal willingness to criticize affirmative action "boosts" given at Harvard College or free money given at Caltech have to do with the fact that Harvard Extension School (unlike the rest of Harvard and all of Caltech--regardless of the color of your skin) offers OPEN ADMISSIONS? |
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Date: February 21st, 2005 4:10 AM Author: Overrated office HES doesn't have open admissions. No degree program at Harvard does. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#2176132) |
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Date: February 21st, 2005 6:46 AM Author: brindle submissive casino They do, basically. Anyone can sign up to take a couple classes. If you get acceptable grades in your classes, you can continue.
That's pretty damn open as far as I'm concerned. (What other program at Harvard works like that?) Under your definition of "open admissions" would they have to mail you your suitable-for-framing diploma as soon as you submit your first check? |
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Date: February 21st, 2005 6:50 PM Author: trip indian lodge preventive strike I said it before, I'll say it again. If Harvard decides that this is what they want to do, then that is their right. Harvard has the right to grant degrees to whomever it wants. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#2179277) |
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Date: February 21st, 2005 7:00 PM Author: brindle submissive casino Yup, and some of them (honorary degrees, HES degrees) are basically recogized as not being real Harvard credentials. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#2179317) |
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Date: February 21st, 2005 7:19 PM Author: trip indian lodge preventive strike Harvard seems to think that HES degrees are real credentials, and Harvard is the final arbiter of that. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#2179424) |
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Date: February 21st, 2005 9:08 PM Author: Hairless Bipolar Corn Cake You're comparing a HES degree to an honorary degree, which involves taking no courses? C'mon, dude, admit that's a little ridiculous. This is all so silly. If HES had an uncompetitive selection process like HSGE, you would have no problem with it. The courses, degrees, and faculty would all be the same, but suddenly it would be a Harvard degree rather than a "glorified community college".
Incidentally, the HES post-bac program does very well at placing students in good medical schools, which don't like community college courses. HES has to compete against other programs that have competitive admissions. Fortunately med schools are more rational than you are and they realize that the quality of a degree is separate from its admissions selectivity.
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Date: February 21st, 2005 7:01 PM Author: brindle submissive casino I think this particular troll isn't worth my time anymore, as he's been thumped consistently enough. Let me know when someone new and/or interesting comes. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#2179319) |
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Date: February 21st, 2005 7:18 PM Author: trip indian lodge preventive strike Are you leaving just because of poor little old me? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#2179421) |
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Date: May 17th, 2005 12:37 PM Author: ocher impertinent theater stage factory reset button This comment is way out of line. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#2804858) |
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Date: January 20th, 2005 8:42 PM Author: white lay internal respiration GTO stop being a schmuckish harvard extension graduate. you're talking with a Rhodes Scholar there. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#1970083) |
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Date: January 20th, 2005 8:54 PM Author: Embarrassed to the bone kitchen dysfunction Being a Rhodes Scholar doesn't necessarily make him right. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#1970176) |
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Date: January 21st, 2005 4:52 AM Author: Topaz misunderstood abode Well that's obvious. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#1972187) |
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Date: January 21st, 2005 7:26 AM Author: Overrated office Except in this case he's outright wrong. Notice how he has stopped making the ridiculous "Harvard says that all HES students *MUST* put extension studies on their resume" claim after being corrected by several people on here.
I'll take Joe's word on matters related to Caltech, or engineering, but on this one he is far off mark, and I'm going to call him out on it. |
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Date: January 21st, 2005 11:20 AM Author: brindle submissive casino I've only stopped because there's nothing more that can be added--from the public FAQ they post online, it seems clear to me that they really do intend "Extension School" to be on the resume. From your appeal to personal communication, they don't care a bit if you don't reveal the origin of your "Harvard" degree.
Just think, for a second, about WHY you are so adamant that "Extension School" actually be left OFF of the resume (even though it's included in their example online)? Why is that? A student from ANY other division at Harvard likely wouldn't care if everyone knew what school their degree was from. I do feel that the primary intent, frankly, is to mislead.
Why are you so desperate for an unadulterated "Harvard" on your resume? It's a little sad, really. You're a smart guy, and you shouldn't have to mislead to impress. I like you, and it kind of disappoints me that you, of all people, want to obscure part of your academic background. I hope after you get your JD and/or PhD you'll feel secure enough for "full disclosure." |
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Date: January 21st, 2005 1:49 PM Author: up-to-no-good 180 old irish cottage crackhouse I think Harvard is partially at fault for this because when people hear Extension School, they think of non-credit type classes offered by non-regular faculty. However, a Harvard ALM requires a certain amount of classes to be taught by regular Harvard faculty. People like you draw the wrong conclusions when they see the term "Harvard Extension." Also, at most schools, the extension is not degree granting whereas at Harvard it obviously is. People often jump to the conclusion that anything taken at an "Extension" was not towards a degree and was only for a very short period of time. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#1973449) |
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Date: January 21st, 2005 3:03 PM Author: Overrated office I'm not being adamant about leaving it off, I'm just saying that you CAN leave it off. Why is it so hard for you to grasp that all I've been doing in this thread is correcting your misinformation? If someone came on here claiming that HES grads can say they graduated from Harvard College I'd be correcting them also. Unfortunately I have to keep harping the resume point because you just plain won't concede that you're wrong.
Also, you're missing the significance of what "in Extension Studies" means. Extension Studies is the *MAJOR,* not the school. If the division was to be indicated, it would be "ALM in Extension Studies, Harvard University Extension School" or "ALM in Extension Studies, Harvard University Divisions of Continuing Education" or "ALM in Extension Studies, Harvard University Faculty of Arts & Sciences." And, as I said before, there are OTHER MAJORS besides "extension studies," such as Biotechnology. So, using the FAQ's style, a biotechnology concentrator would put "ALM in Biotechnology, Harvard University" on their resume.
As for my academic background, I'm not trying to obscure anything. I don't list divisions for *any* of my schools. On my resume, I don't say University of Pennsylvania Law School, or Cornell University School of Industiral & Labor Relations, or Harvard University Division of Continuing Education (which is where the degree comes from actually, not "Extension School" -- though Harvard University Faculty of Arts & Sciences would also be correct since DCE is a subdivision of FAS). All I have is University of Pennsylvania, Cornell University, and Harvard University -- I'm consistent, and my resume has been formatted like this from before I even knew HES existed. If I ever changed my resume to include divisions for one school (though I honestly don't see the point), I'd include divisions for the others. There is full disclosure -- anyone who gives a shit about what division the degree came from can look at the degree title and/or major. BS in ILR = Cornell ILR, JD = Penn Law, ALM = Harvard DCE. Not exactly rocket science there, and any employer who cares about education would either know the difference or ask for transcripts.
And for the last time, I would really appreciate it if you stopped trying to present yourself as an authority about something you know little or nothing about. I've tried to explain the significance of "in Extension Studies" and proper resume formatting several times on here already but for whatever reason you just refuse to grasp what I'm trying to tell you. If you truly think I'm lying or being deliberately misleading, I've already told you that you can feel free to contact HES yourself and ask -- which is what I did when I had these exact same questions.
Now, can we let this subject die and go back to discussing anal sex or bukkake? |
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Date: January 21st, 2005 2:51 PM Author: brindle submissive casino Hey, wait.... "uphighdownlow" was the OP, with:
"Does anyone know about these programs run through Harvard Extension? Do people consider them 'real' Harvard degrees?"
Why would you actually ask such an open-ended question if you were already so positive about what the answers were?
I smell a troll. Man, the Harvard trolls I've gotten used to, but now we have to deal with Harvard EXTENSION trolls? What is this board coming to... |
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Date: January 21st, 2005 3:08 PM Author: Overrated office I don't think it's a troll, seems more like flamebait to me. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#1973947) |
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Date: January 21st, 2005 3:10 PM Author: brindle submissive casino It was flamebait that quickly turned into trolling (when he jumped into the discussion himself). (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#1973957) |
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Date: January 21st, 2005 3:13 PM Author: Overrated office You could say that, though I get the impression the purpose of jumping in was to get you to keep posting and prolong the arguing. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#1973983) |
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Date: January 21st, 2005 3:19 PM Author: brindle submissive casino That would explain the ad hominem attacks and the fact that he doesn't seem to care that his argument holds no water. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#1974013) |
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Date: January 21st, 2005 3:41 PM Author: up-to-no-good 180 old irish cottage crackhouse Neither flaming nor trolling. My original question is not at all inconsistent with anything I have stated. My statements go towards how to put it on your resume and how it can be good for Ph.D admissions. What do either of these things have to do with how the degree is viewed by outsiders? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#1974181) |
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Date: January 21st, 2005 6:39 PM Author: cracking honey-headed corner gay wizard you guys are too funny, having such intense arguments over something like putting "extension school" on a diploma.
:-) |
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Date: February 21st, 2005 9:21 PM Author: Diverse crystalline codepig I can't possibly express how much I don't want to have any part of this innane and basically irrelevant 'debate'.
However, after reading most of this thread (for reasons passing understanding) I have to say the hypocrisy on the part of some of the pro-HES advocates (read: Sakky) is getting on my nerves. Namely, some advocates for 'due respect' to HES seem to have no problem insulting the thousands of students in programs they find, by some imaginary and arbitrary standard, to be 'non-prestigous' within their home institutions.
In particular: stop shitting all over what you arbitrarily decide are the less 'prestigous' programs at various universities. Please don't try to 'clarify' that you are only pointing out programs that would meet your perception of Joe's criteria on what constitutes 'part' of an institution. I get what you are saying. Implicit in much of your text is a big fat dump all over a bunch of programs, quite arbitrarily. Instead of telling me that you're trying to prove that there programs DESERVE respect, recognize that they already have it, and that your tone is unbelivably condescending toward them.
MIT's Political Science program is one of the best in the country, notwithstanding the fact that it is not HYPS and that the institution has 'technology' in the name. The Sloan school is also one of the best business schools in the country; their management studies degree is well-respected. Harvard's 'easy' engineering program is generally ranked among the top 20 in the country, and draws on top-flight physics, chemistry, biology and math faculty. Caltech's social science departments are extremely strong, as well.
While I may well disagree with some of what Joe is saying, the comparison should be extension schools to the university proper, not departments within the universities. If you are going to insist on making comparisons within universities, try to do so with a little more respect (or at least knowledge) about the programs you choose to smear feces all over.
That is all. |
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Date: February 21st, 2005 9:42 PM Author: trip indian lodge preventive strike First off, let me say that if you really don't want to participate in the debate, then why don't you simply not participate in the debate.
Second, I am not "pro-HES". I am not pro-anything, except to say that I am pro-refraining from calling certain programs unreal simply because they have or don't have this-and-that attribute.
I also find it rather interesting that you find my tone regarding certain programs to be inappropriate, but you seem to have said nothing at all about Joe. Who's really going aroud spreading feces on certain programs, me or Joe?
Nevertheless, it is indisputable that certain programs are easier than others. I think that's what Joe was getting at. The problem is that once you start going down the road of saying that one program is not real because it is easier than the others, then that simply opens the door to a bunch of other people calling a whole bunch of other programs easy and therefore unreal. The best thing to do is to simply not start going down that road in the first place. I would ask you, who is REALLY going around setting arbitrary criteria of what are good programs and what aren't good programs, me or Joe?
Finally, if you are contending that I don't have any knowledge of many of the programs of which I am speaking, I can assure you that you are dead-wrong. I am not saying that the programs that I named are not as good, I am simply saying that using if you were to use Joe's logic, then lots of programs out there that we know to be good would be considered to be not good. It's proof-by-contradiction. If you want to prove something is not true, you first presume that it is true and then use that fact to arrive at a conclusion that you know to be false, thereby showing that the original thing must also be false.
The bottom line is that I am not a HES-fanatic. However, I don't think it is appropriate for certain people to ,as you put it, spread feces on HES. Funny how you had nothing to say when Joe was here talking about how HES degrees aren't real, then when I start talking, you feel the need to come in. You certainly seemed to have no problem with him spreading the feces around.
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Date: February 21st, 2005 9:49 PM Author: Diverse crystalline codepig I'm not participating in the HES debate. I'm just asking you to show some more respect to programs you seem to know nothing about.
"I am not saying that the programs that I named are not as good, I am simply saying that using if you were to use Joe's logic, then lots of programs out there that we know to be good would be considered to be not good. It's proof-by-contradiction. If you want to prove something is not true, you first presume that it is true and then use that fact to arrive at a conclusion that you know to be false, thereby showing that the original thing must also be false."
Now, see, look what you did. I TOLD you not to say this, and you said it anyway.
Your flippant references to a half-dozen other programs as inferior in various ways to their same-university counterparts is insulting to the people in those programs. Your 'proof by contradiction' is condescending to these students.
I don't think I agree with Joe, but at least he is making one claim (HES != Harvard) and providing evidence to back it up. You are throwing out random insults to a half-dozen programs. |
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Date: February 21st, 2005 10:15 PM Author: trip indian lodge preventive strike First off, I am allowed to say whatever I want. I don't have to check in with you to find out what I am allowed to say.
Secondly, did I say that those programs were bad? I said that they had certain features (i.e. part-time, easier to get into, have lots of visiting profs, easier curriculum, etc.) that JOE said were characteristic of a bad program. I am not saying that I consider them to be bad. I am simply using Joe's definitions.
And finally, there once again is the claim that got me involved in the first place, that HES != Harvard. HES is in fact Harvard. Why? Because Harvard says that it is. Basically, Harvard is whatever Harvard says that it is, and if Harvard says that it wants to include a program like HES within the Harvard rubric, then that is Harvard's prerogative. It is precisely this claim that HES is not a real Harvard degree, or HES is not equal to Harvard that got me into this thread in the first place. |
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Date: February 21st, 2005 10:20 PM Author: Diverse crystalline codepig Yes, you have every right to say whatever you want. This doesn't mean that saying certain things doesn't make you a jackass. What the hell does the 1st amendment have to do with anything we're talking about here?
Somehow I knew you weren't going to let it go. So I compiled a list of your 'greatest hits' so people who don't want to read this 5 mile thread know what i'm talking about:
"Getting into the Harvard master's degree program in engineering (yes, Harvard has engineering) is pretty easy as far as engineering graduate schools go"
"It doesn't take a rocket scientist to get into the Yale or Columbia School of Nursing, for example"
"You don't have to be a genius to get into the Stanford University School of Education"
"certain graduate programs at MIT, especially the more liberal-arts style of programs (yes, MIT runs some liberal-arts related graduate programs) really aren't all terribly difficult to get into"
" The entire Humanities & Social Sciences division (with the possible exception of Economics), you must concede, isn't exactly Caltech's forte"
"I know one guy who studied EE and while didn't do terrible, didn't do great either...He got admitted to one grad engineering school - Harvard"
"the Harvard Graduate School of Education is arguably the worst Harvard program. Either that or the Harvard graduate engineering program. I have also heard snickerings around Boston that these 2 programs aren't 'real' Harvard programs either"'
" I don't want to sound harsh, but,for example, the students in the Harvard Medical School are probably more competent, on average, than the students in the Harvard Dental School, because the fact is, a lot of dental students (not all of them, but a lot) are people who couldn't get into medical school, and dental school is their backup career"
"The same could be said for the Harvard Graduate School of Education. The fact is, Education schools in general (not just Harvard's but all of them), for various reasons, tend to bring in students who really aren't that strong, relatively speaking. If one were to take all the graduate students at Harvard and rank their competence by school, I wouldn't be surprised in the least to find that the Education students would be near the bottom."
"Harvard does not run the best engineering programs in the country, and consequently does not have the best engineering graduate students in the country. The best engineering graduate students in the world tend to want to go to MIT."
Make whatever point you want. Just please do it without insulting the intelligence, talent, drive, or work ethic of students in dozens of fields at dozens of institutions, along with the entirety of Education, Dentistry, and whatever other profession you choose to malign. |
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Date: February 21st, 2005 11:18 PM Author: trip indian lodge preventive strike I could easily compile a list of Joe's 'greatest hits' as well. I would also point out that you said that you agreed with Joe when he said that HES is not Harvard. Isn't that a maligning of people who are in the HES?
And look, the fact is, certain programs at Harvard are not as good as others. I have never disputed that. It's just a fact. Certain programs at all schools are not as good as others. I think we all know this to be true. Harvard has some things that are good, and others that are less good. To say that all Harvard programs are of equivalent quality is simply ludicrous. Heck, even you alluded to as much when you said that you agreed with Joe when he said that the HES is not Harvard. At any school you are talking about, some program has to be the bottom. Isn't that a simple truism?
My simple point is that just because certain programs are not as good as others doesn't make them "not real". They're all real, because the school recognizes all of them.
I am still continually amazed that you continue to choose to battle me while doing absolutely nothing about Joe. So when Joe goes around spreading feces on HES, you do nothing, but then when I come in, all of a sudden, you're incensed. So basically, Joe is allowed to talk as much smack about the HES as he wants, and it doesn't bother you one bit.
Bottom line, you seem awfully concerned that I am going around supposedly maligning those people who are in those other programs I named, but when Joe goes around really maligning the people who are in HES, apparently, you are very conveniently nowhere to be found. |
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Date: February 21st, 2005 11:32 PM Author: brindle submissive casino I'm guessing he doesn't so much mind my criticism of HES because it consists of targeted and supported statements about one school, in response (ultimately) to a request for **opinions** from the OP on what exactly HES means. Hence, entirely reasonable, even if you disagree.
On the other hand, you criticize pretty much indiscriminately and without much support (as he documents above) any number of programs at any number of schools, as well as entire professions, none of which are the topic of this thread. Pretty unreasonable (in his eyes, and mine). |
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Date: February 21st, 2005 11:38 PM Author: trip indian lodge preventive strike Indiscriminately? I am merely using your reasons for trashing HES and taking them to their logical conclusion. If you want to trash HES for having attributes X, Y, and Z, then you should trash ALL programs that have attributes X, Y, and Z. To do otherwise is really to engage in selective outrage. You say you don't like part-time programs? Fine, then trash ALL part-time programs. You say that you don't like programs that use lots of visiting lecturers? Fine, then trash ALL such programs. You say that you don't like programs that have weak admissions policies? Fine, then trash them ALL.
I also find it interesting that you would tell other people that they are being unreasonable, considering that many people, including myself, consider your behavior to be unreasonable. What is unreasonable is to go around saying that HES is somehow not part of Harvard (which it is) and that HES does not grant degrees that are "real" (which they are).
How about this, Joe. I will very happily retract whatever statements that you object to that I have made about other programs, if you then retract statements that you have made about HES that I object to. |
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Date: February 21st, 2005 11:52 PM Author: brindle submissive casino To quote "reasonable analysis" (whose moniker is pretty apt, if I do say so myself!):
"I don't think I agree with Joe, but at least he is making one claim (HES != Harvard) and providing evidence to back it up. You are throwing out random insults to a half-dozen programs."
The fact remains that HES is the only thing being trolled on this thread. I chose to stay on topic (the topic being HES as it relates to the rest of Harvard, of course) as much as possible in refuting those trolls, to avoid wholly unnecessary situations like the one (having insulted large swaths of academia) that you now find yourself in. |
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Date: February 22nd, 2005 12:07 AM Author: trip indian lodge preventive strike Ok, so then, fine, let's stay strictly on topic then. HES is in fact a real Harvard program offering real degrees, for the simple reason that Harvard says that it is. Whether you agree with Harvard or not about that is an entirely separate issue. Yet what is undeniable is that Harvard has the right to say whatever it wants.
Besides, you have strayed away from the topic at hand numerous times. What do the policies of Harvard College, or Harvard honorary degrees, or any of that other stuff, have to do with HES specifically? If you say that we should stay on topic, then let's stay on topic.
Finally, I do find it interesting that you are the one crying about my supposed insulting of swaths of academia, but you continue to refuse to see that your characterization of HES as "not real" is not an insult in and of itself. So the question really is, who started insulting first? Quite ironic that somebody who started off by saying that they don't find a HES degree to be real is all of a sudden complaining that we should be refraining from insulting various academic programs. |
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Date: February 22nd, 2005 12:11 AM Author: Diverse crystalline codepig "So the question really is, who started insulting first?"
Whaaaaat the crap are you talking about?
You might have an argument that Joe is hypocritical in coming to the defense of the other programs you malign. But this has nothing to do with what I said.
What you've been doing is insulting and condescending to tons of undergraduate and graduate students everywhere. The mature thing to do would be to apologize, not point your finger like a two year old and whine, 'he started it first!' |
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Date: February 22nd, 2005 12:20 AM Author: trip indian lodge preventive strike Look, if Joe feels that he has the right to go around judging HES because he doesn't like this-and-that attribute of HES, then I feel I am entirely within my rights to show where that will ultimately lead, from a logical standpoint. I see that you are also implicitly agreeing that Joe has been going around insulting people, namely those undergraduate and graduate students at HES.
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Date: February 22nd, 2005 12:33 AM Author: Diverse crystalline codepig I am criticizing YOUR conduct, which exists independently of how many babies Joe has boiled alive or KKK rallies he's attended.
Learn to take some responsibility for your actions. |
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Date: February 22nd, 2005 12:40 AM Author: trip indian lodge preventive strike You speak of responsibility? Funny how you never worried about other people's responsibility before I had ever stepped foot in this thread. This thread had existed for about a month before I ever found it, and certain people had been blasting HES students for that entire month. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#2181955) |
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Date: February 22nd, 2005 12:48 AM Author: Diverse crystalline codepig I post infrequently on the law board. I noticed this thread one hour before I posted on it.
Next innane question? |
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Date: February 21st, 2005 11:53 PM Author: Diverse crystalline codepig This is basically correct.
I should point out that I don't really agree with your conclusions, though a) I don't want to be drawn into this, and b) it's entirely irrelevant to the point I am making. |
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Date: February 22nd, 2005 12:03 AM Author: brindle submissive casino Of course it's fine if you "don't really agree with my conclusions"! I can take reasonable disagreement, just not trolls.
I'm just glad that someone else recognized the hypocrisy in the HES defenses. Nothing wrong with writing about how great HES is, but there's no reason to bring in Yale Nursing, Caltech's humanities and social science, dentists everywhere, or the entire field of Education. |
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Date: February 22nd, 2005 12:07 AM Author: Diverse crystalline codepig Yeah, I know you get it. I'm just pointing it out because sakky seems to think I somehow agree with you, and despite the fact that this does not matter, I thought maybe being more frequently explicit about this would help him take the blinders off.
Probably not, though. |
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Date: February 22nd, 2005 12:23 AM Author: trip indian lodge preventive strike And what about your 'blinders'? You are complaining that people are getting insulted? Except for of course when Joe goes around insulting HES students. But I suppose you don't see, or you don't want to see that. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#2181852) |
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Date: February 22nd, 2005 12:34 AM Author: Diverse crystalline codepig What I do or do not see with respect to Joe is irrelevant to your conduct. You are responsible for your conduct. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#2181906) |
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Date: February 22nd, 2005 12:38 AM Author: trip indian lodge preventive strike First off, what you choose to see or not see is entirely relevant when you then go around criticizing other people for having blinders on. Don't tell me about blinders when you have blinders on yourself.
Furthermore, I am responsible for my conduct. Just like you are responsible for your conduct. And Joe is responsible for his. So what's your point?
But it is good to see that you are possibly acknowledging that you are choosing not to see certain things. |
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Date: February 22nd, 2005 12:47 AM Author: Diverse crystalline codepig 'First off', don't ever say 'blinders' again. Ever. Your 'blinders' point has nothing to do with what you're talking about. I never accused you of having 'blinders' on, whatever the hell that means. I accused you of being insensitive and flippant and insulting to thousands of hardworking students.
You have never denied this.
My point, you fool, is that if you have insulted people, the onus is on you to apologize. Not contingent on me criticizing Joe for similar conduct, not contingend on whether or not Joe engaged in similar conduct, not contingent on ANYTHING except whether or not you have insulted people.
You have insulted tons of them.
Apologize. |
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Date: February 22nd, 2005 1:01 AM Author: trip indian lodge preventive strike Ah, so now you are insulting me personally again. And yet you want me to apologize but insulting others?
Let me turn the situation around, now that I got you. You apologize to me for flinging personal insults at me, like calling me a fool. You said it yourself, your conduct has nothing to do with anybody else's conduct. Hence, what I see here is that you have insulted me. So go ahead, apologize.
Apologize. |
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Date: February 22nd, 2005 1:07 AM Author: Diverse crystalline codepig You would actually have the balls to compare my digs at you with your maligning of thousands of students who never did anything to you or anyone else except decide they wanted to get their MS in education and go be a goddamn third grade teacher in inner-city Philly?
Go to hell. |
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Date: February 22nd, 2005 1:12 AM Author: trip indian lodge preventive strike And what exactly have I done to you such that I deserve your insults? Besides, you're the one that has been saying that people who fling out insults should apologize. I didn't take that position, you did.
Yep, ending with another insult. I thought you might do that. Isn't it odd that on the one hand you complain about insults, and on the other hand you go around insulting me? |
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Date: February 22nd, 2005 12:09 AM Author: trip indian lodge preventive strike Did I say that HES was 'great'? Please point to the quote where I specifically said that it was 'great'.
My point is, and continues to be, that if you want to go around castigating HES, then you will inevitably draw in a whole bunch of other programs into the fray. You can't just draw the line and say that you don't like HES specifically, but you have no problems with any other programs. That's a purely arbitrary distinction. |
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Date: February 22nd, 2005 12:43 AM Author: brindle submissive casino "Did I say that HES was 'great'? Please point to the quote where I specifically said that it was 'great'."
No, you never have, of course. Ironically enough, if you read my post, I used that as an example of what a non-insulting response would have been.
"You can't just draw the line and say that you don't like HES specifically, but you have no problems with any other programs."
I've said nothing of the sort. I simply know much more about HES than I do about all of the other programs/divisions/schools/professions you've insulted in this thread, with the lone exception of Caltech's humanities and social science majors. So I'm not really eager to criticize those other programs (which are NOT the topic of this thread) without knowing about them--in PARTICULAR, without knowing whether alumni of, say, Berkeley Extension consistently tout themselves as "full Berkeley alums" (or whatever)--which is my major criticism of some of the HES-advocate posters on this and other threads. |
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Date: February 22nd, 2005 12:52 AM Author: trip indian lodge preventive strike You know Joe, frankly, if we can take the temperature down a bit, our positions are not particularly different. In fact I find it strange that we ended up clashing as much as we did, considering that I think we actually agree on more than we disagree.
I have always believed, as you do, that HES is probably not as strong of a program as some of the other Harvard programs. That has to do with institutional reasons - HES is not as well funded, it draws on an entirely different pool of students, and so forth. So in one sense, I agree with you about some of the things you have said about HES.
On the other hand, I draw the line at calling HES "not real" Harvard degrees, for the simple reason that all of Harvard's degree programs offer real Harvard degrees, whether we like it or not. Harvard has the right to say what degrees it wants to grant, and to whom. And if we really don't like it, then we should take it up with the Harvard administration itself. But at the end of the day, the responsibility lies with Harvard itself.
At the end of the day, that is really the one dispute that I had with you. If you were to say that HES is not as good as Harvard College or HBS or things like that, then that's fine. But to say that it's not a real Havard degree at all, I think you go too far. The fact is, Harvard gets to decide what are real degrees or not.
It's too bad that the situation has degenerated the way it has, because if this thread had turned out a bit differently, I suspect we'd be fighting on the same side. |
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Date: February 22nd, 2005 1:01 AM Author: brindle submissive casino I stand by my statements, unfortunately, as they were all made in response to the OP's query of whether or not "people" consider Harvard Extension degrees to be "real" Harvard degrees (the OP's use of quotes around "real" indicates to me that he had a more connotative and less literal meaning in mind than you might).
My opinion of that, as a "person" was: no, I do not. Although they're obviously real Harvard degrees in the most literal sense, I don't believe that "people" consider them to be "real" Harvard degrees. I certainly don't. You certainly may disagree. |
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Date: February 22nd, 2005 1:11 AM Author: trip indian lodge preventive strike Well, then, if that's the way that you chose to interpret the OP's question, then I guess I can't really argue with you. I would, however, say, that the OP's question might have been trollbait. (yes, we have been flinging the word 'troll' around a lot, but you know what I mean).
You of course obviously have the right to think whatever you want about various Harvard degrees, including the HES degrees. I, for one, would still caution you that it's a rather dangerous road to go on. Harvard is a very large school with many different kinds of programs, and if you start calling one of them "not real", then you will inevitably start calling others 'not real' too. Then we get into that mess of trying to figure out which Harvard programs are real and which ones aren't. It's not all black-and-white, you know. As the whole scrum that we just engaged in shows, if nothing else, that it becomes exceedingly difficult to really come up with a way of ascertaining which is real and what is not. Better to just not even try.
Nevertheless, I have always conceded that you have a point in saying that HES is not as strong as, say, Harvard College, and anybody who declares it to be so is wrong. But whether that makes HES 'not real' is another question entirely. |
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Date: February 21st, 2005 11:50 PM Author: Diverse crystalline codepig Godddamn it, would you please learn how to read? I did NOT say I agreed with Joe. I said 'I **don't** think I agree with Joe, but at least he is making one claim (HES != Harvard) and providing evidence to back it up.' Pointing out that Joe is making an argument is not the same as agreeing with him.
For the record, the reason I found yours to be (more) offensive is because you have attacked dozens of fields at dozens of universities, and a few fields across the board. Joe's conduct has not been as indiscriminate. Your condescension for certain programs and fields of study makes your defense of HES hypocritical. But more importantly, it is COMPLETELY irrelevant what Joe is doing. Are you five years old?
Stop talking to me about Joe. I'm not your freaking mother. 'He's doing it too' is not a valid defense for your conduct --- or even a defense at all.
Regarding the substance of your commentary - obviously every program is not equivalent to every other program. I did not claim that it is. My only claim is that I find the way you've maligned thousands of students across the country in order to prove your 'point' to be distateful.
Please get your head out of your ass. And you'd do well to apologize for flippantly insulting so many people.
And if you respond, 'not until Joe does first,' I guess we'll just have to send the both of you to your rooms without dessert until your father comes home to sort this thing out.
Idiot. |
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Date: February 22nd, 2005 12:17 AM Author: trip indian lodge preventive strike Fine, so you didn't agree with Joe, but you didn't exactly disagree with him either. You're like a cop who sees a thief stealing some money and choosing to do nothing about it. Then when somebody calls you on it, you just say "Well, I didn't agree with that thief stealing that money".
And like I said, my method is entirely appropriate. It is Joe himself that opened the door to standing judgment over certain programs. It is Joe who decided that it is appropriate to call certain programs real and others not-real. Sorry to have to point it out, but he opened the door. I would have preferred that this door had remained closed. And I am showing the problems that happen when that door opens. Best solution - don't open the door in the first place. If you are going to judge one program, then who is to say that others can't be judged too? Besides, what I found to be distasteful in the first place is that Joe is going around maligning all HES students by telling them that their degrees are not real. That's pretty distasteful, you must admit.
Hey, look, if you're a cop and you continue to do nothing about the thief who is stealing money, then you shouldn't be surprised if other people take care of that thief in their own way, and you may not like the means by which that thief is dealt with. If you don't want that, then as a cop, deal with the thief.
And finally, about the personal insults. Yeah, all your name-calling of me really supports your arguments. I am just SO convinced by that.
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Date: February 22nd, 2005 12:31 AM Author: Diverse crystalline codepig Listen to me.
1) I don't agree with Joe. My agreement or disagreement with Joe is irrelevant to whether or not you have insulted thousands of people.
2) Joe's conduct is irrelevant to whether or not you have insulted thousands of people.
There is no 'opening the door'. YOU are responsible for the words that you type into the computer. Joe is not responsible for the words you type into the computer. You're view of me as some sort of candy-ass policeman does not make me responsible for the words you type into the computer.
Joe did not insult Yale's Nursing students, Harvard's engineers, call all dentists failed doctor wannabes or education a field full of weak students. YOU did.
You. Are. Responsible. For what you say.
You should apologize, but you won't.
Your inability to acknowledge YOUR insensitivity speaks volumes about your character (or lack thereof). |
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Date: February 22nd, 2005 12:37 AM Author: trip indian lodge preventive strike Now listen to me.
What if I had attempted to deal with Joe, and said that certain other programs (which I would not have named) have many of the same characteristics that he hates so much about HES. What if I had done that?
You and I both know what would have happened. Joe would have basically stood up and said "Which ones?". And if I had refused to answer, he would have simply said "You're just making it up". You know in your heart that that's what would have happened. Think about it. You know it's true.
I have asked you before, I'll ask you again. Has Joe insulted anybody?
Has Joe maligned anybody?
Have you called out Joe for maligning anybody?
Has Joe acknowledged his insensitivity?
Has you ever asked yourself why is it that you still have not confronted Joe?
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Date: February 22nd, 2005 12:45 AM Author: Diverse crystalline codepig Like I said before, you can compare extension schools to extension schools without maligning the intelligence or drive or capability of thousands of bright, hardworking students.
Or you could deal with other programs in a measured, responsible, and respectful way. "It doesn't take a rocket scientist to get into the Yale or Columbia School of Nursing" is not respectful. Talking about your 'snickerings' around Boston is not respectful. Telling dental students that their field is a 'backup career' is not respectful.
I'll answer your Joe questions the same way i've answered them this entire time. What I think of Joe or his conduct in this discussion is NOT RELEVANT to the question of whether or not YOU have been offensive. I'd assumed the reason I haven't 'confronted' Joe was obvious -- it is extraneous to the point that I am making.
Apologize for your conduct. |
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Date: February 22nd, 2005 12:58 AM Author: trip indian lodge preventive strike Well, first of all, did I say they were my snickerings? I said they were snickerings that I heard, they were from other people, and I merely report what I have heard. It doesn't mean that I necessarily agree with it, I'm just telling you what I heard.
Furthermore, once again, I will say that the reason why I have conducted myself the way I have (apparently in a way that you don't like), is a direct response to the way that Joe has conducted himself. Bottom line - no Joe talking trash about HES, then no me getting involved. Hence, his conduct is entirely relevant to what has been happening. It's not like I came in here and stirred a bunch of stuff up. Stuff was already stirred up before I had ever found this thread. Hence, my words on this thread are intimately linked with Joe's. You cannot talk about my words on this thread without talking about Joe's, because my words would not have even existed without Joe's.
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Date: February 22nd, 2005 1:07 AM Author: brindle submissive casino "Bottom line - no Joe talking trash about HES, then no me getting involved."
By that logic, if I called you "Mr. Smelly Farts," you would be justified in firebombing my house? I don't think "retaliation" is a very good defense for anything.
And I dispute that my negative opinion represents "talking trash." All I did was respond to the OP's question (which asked for, as nearly as I can tell, both positive and negative opinions). Why not blame him if you don't like some of the opinions that were generated? |
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Date: February 22nd, 2005 1:17 AM Author: Diverse crystalline codepig Oh just shut the hell up, Mr. Smelly Farts.
Whatever shall we do with your pernicious, malignant bowels... |
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Date: February 22nd, 2005 1:17 AM Author: trip indian lodge preventive strike Aw, come on Joe. You have to concede that, in all your various posts and defenses of your previous posts, etc. you did a little more than just respond to the OP's question.
Like I said, you have every right to believe that the HES degrees aren't 'real'. My simple point is that once you start going down that road, things get messy.
My personal stance is that HES doesn't really do anything that a lot of other programs throughout the country don't also do. Hence, HES is certainly not an 'outlier'. |
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Date: February 22nd, 2005 1:13 AM Author: Diverse crystalline codepig That's ridiculous. I can't go around saying 'jews control the media' and then blame it on you because you got your ire up first. Your victim mentality is as disgusting as it is inapplicable to this situation.
Joe did not force you to mock dentists as wannabe doctors. He didn't force you to make fun of Yale nurses as 'not rocket scientists', slag off Harvard's engineering program as 'pretty easy', mock the 'genius' of Stanford's teachers, talk about how MIT's programs 'aren't terribly difficult to get into'. Your comments are flippant, they are obnoxious, they are not backed up with evidence, and a bunch of them are just factually incorrect.
Anyhow, I'm through with you. Anyone with three or more brain cells will see what an ass you've been here. Your refusal to apologize for your idiotic, offensive, and childish antics is also now ensconced in the public record.
Have a nice day. |
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Date: February 22nd, 2005 1:22 AM Author: trip indian lodge preventive strike How exactly am I supposed to respond to somebody who stands up and takes the position that insults are a bad thing, and then turns around and insults me?
I see that your antics and your inability to practice what you preach is also ensconced in the public record. That's a good thing, because it allows everybody to see that you really truly believe in what you say you believe in. You complain about my antics, yet how about yours? Exactly. |
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Date: February 22nd, 2005 12:52 AM Author: brindle submissive casino Subject: Here's a guess: Everything I've posted has been in response to what I took as a legitimate and good-faith query of the OP looking for opinions:
"Does anyone know about these programs run through Harvard Extension? Do people consider them 'real' Harvard degrees?"
As a "person," I felt qualified to answer with my opinion, and I limited my response to the question that was asked (HES vis-a-vis Harvard). Your Yale Nursing/dentist/whatever comments (if some attempt were made to back them up) might have a place in a Yale Nursing thread or a discussion of the relative prestige of MD's and DDS's, but they're just unprompted insults here. |
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Date: March 5th, 2005 6:06 PM Author: trip indian lodge preventive strike I see, so unprompted insulting is not OK, but as long as the insulting is prompted, it's all fair game. That to me seems like a distinction without a difference. If you say that insulting is something to be condemned, then you should condemn ALL insults (or perceived insults), whether prompted or not. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#2264009) |
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Date: March 6th, 2005 7:53 PM Author: brindle submissive casino This is a really silly argument. If someone asks for an opinion (as the OP did), I think there's a certain latitude to give an honest answer--even an unfavorable one.
That's VERY different than just lashing out blindly. As has been pointed out to you repeatedly by myself and others. |
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Date: March 19th, 2005 8:51 AM Author: trip indian lodge preventive strike Come now. Once you open the door to latitude, then it's all in the eye of the beholder as to what latitude is allowable. What you call 'lashing out blindly', I call a perfectly acceptable use of argument by analogy.
And who cares if something has been pointed out repeatedly by myself and others? What does that have to do with anything? Other people and I have disagreed with you repeatedly, but that doesn't deter you. So why should I be deterred by you and other people repeating things to me? |
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Date: February 21st, 2005 10:09 PM Author: trip indian lodge preventive strike Now, having spent my time trying to deal with certain pieces of the thread, let me deal with the thread as a whole.
My take is that the HES program caters to working people, nontraditional students, and other people who for whatever reason weren't able to get a more traditional degree. Clearly, HES is less funded than is Harvard College or many other highly stellar Harvard programs, and the average quality of the students there is not as strong as that of many of the other Harvard programs. The instruction and overall student services are probably also not as strong as in the rest of Harvard. Classes are generally offered at night, you can do it part-time, and classes are open-enrollment, and the admissions process is relatively easy, as far as Harvard goes. This doesn't make me "pro-HES" or "anti-HES", but a simple realist about what HES can and cannot do for a student.
What I am struck at is the simple negative emotional responses that HES seems to elicit among certain people. In particular, I divide them into 2 camps:
*The outsiders - meaning those who are not affiliated with Harvard in any way. One person, who shall remain unnamed, immediately comes to mind.
And to these people, I would say, well, what do you care? If Harvard decides to run an extension school, what is it to you? You're not affiliated with Harvard, so it's no skin off your teeth. If Harvard decides to run some HES degree programs, and some people that for some reason you think are unworthy decide to complete those programs, then how does that affect you? If people take classes at HES and then go around saying they are Harvard students, well, so what? That's their problem, not yours.
Perhaps you feel that these people might get a job or get grad-school admission over you by flinging around the 'H-bomb' name - basically, is it that you don't like it that somebody can say that they studied at Harvard (meaning HES) and hence they can beat you out for a job, even though they are not as good as you are? Well, if that's the problem, then I would have to say that that's really the fault of a stupid employer or a stupid grad-school adcom. If an employer/grad-school hires somebody incompetent just because of the H-bomb, without checking out whether that candidate is really any good or not, then that employer/grad-school is stupid and deserves to get screwed. I would also contend that you don't want to work for such a stupid employer or study at such a stupid grad-school program anyway.
Or maybe the issue is that you feel that HES is somehow marring the good-brand-name of Harvard by granting degrees upon unworthy people? Even if that were true that HES were granting lots of degrees to unworthy people, well, if you're not affiliated with Harvard anyway, what do you care? In fact, I would say that if you really think that Harvard is marring its brand-name via HES, and you go to a competing school (i.e. Caltech), then you would want Harvard to mar its brand-name, because it then makes your school look good comparatively.
The bottom line is that for those people who don't have any relationship with Harvard, why do you care so much about what Harvard is or is not doing?
*The insiders
Now, to those people who are actually affiliated with Harvard, and also don't like HES, I would say that if if you really don't like it, then take it up with the administration. Write something up in the Crimson. Go talk to some of the Harvard bureaucrats and tell them that you don't like HES, for whatever reason, and that you want HES shut down or changed or whatever it is that you want.
I would throw in that HES has existed in some form for several decades now. It's not like it's a brand-new thing. So if you're worried about HES marring the image of Harvard, well, it clearly hasn't done it so far. But in any case, if you really feel that HES is inappropriate for Harvard, then you should take it up with Harvard.
In any case, I am still mystified as to why is it that so many people have such negative things to say about HES. I am not "pro-HES", as some of you have implied, but I am "anti-anti-HES". |
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Date: March 5th, 2005 7:09 PM Author: outnumbered drab ticket booth I completely agree with everything you just stated. I would add that almost every top school has some sort of extension or evening program to suit the needs of nontraditional students seeking to continue or complete their education. It's not as if Harvard is unique among elite schools in the sense that it offers open-enrollment evening programs. This is fairly standard and, in addition to being a wonderful resource for people who might not otherwise be able to take advantage of all that the University offers the community, is also a relatively sound investment on the part of the institution. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#2264356) |
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Date: March 6th, 2005 12:43 AM Author: trip indian lodge preventive strike Yes, but as you can see, there are certain people who seem to have a very strong opinion about HES - to the point of calling HES degrees not 'real', and comparing these degrees to honorary degrees and so forth.
The bottom line is that HES degrees are real Harvard degrees because Harvard says that they are. Harvard is allowed to determine who should get degrees from them. Harvard certainly considers the HES degrees to be real degrees, as HES degree recipients are invited to walk in the regular Harvard-wide commencement ceremonies, are invited to join the Harvard Club, and are given full privileges to the Harvard Alumni Association. And of course HES degree recipients are constantly badgered for alumni donations, just like any other Harvard alumni is. Seems like the HES degree is pretty 'real' to me.
The simple fact is, Harvard is a large institution that runs various degree programs of varying difficulty and selectivity. Some of the programs are easier than others, either to complete or to get into in the first place. Why single out HES?
I am amazed that the presence of HES draws this much vehemence from people. If Harvard chooses to run degree programs through HES, so what? If you really don't like it, then take it up with the Harvard administration and get them to change it. Just bear in mind that HES has existed for almost a century now (started in 1909), and it doesn't seem that Harvard's prestige has been hurt by its presence. Harvard has a total of 20,000 students (undergrad and grad) of which less than 1000 are formal HES degree candidates. That's just 5% of the student population. So it's not like Harvard is just churning out massive boatloads of HES degrees. |
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Date: March 6th, 2005 3:17 AM Author: brindle submissive casino "Why single out HES?"
As has been stated *repeatedly*, HES singled out itself in the form of you and the other trolls coming out of the woodwork to sing its praises and legitimacy to the sky. When Berkeley Extension (or whatever) trolls pop up here, trust me, we'll be there. Until that day (and be sure to let me know when it comes), it looks to me like the only trolls that need thumping are the HES trolls on this thread. |
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Date: March 6th, 2005 4:20 AM Author: trip indian lodge preventive strike No, once again, I think it is you that is singling it out. You know, you could have just ignored the OP, and this would have turned into a thread with just one post (the OP's post).
Like I said before, why exactly do you feel the need to to point out whether HES is real or not? What is it to you anyway? Why do you care so much about what Harvard is doing? It seems like you're the troll that needs thumping.
And there you go again, saying that I am singing the praises of HES. Again, name me one single time where I actually praised HES. My position has always been the same - HES is what it is, like it or not. I am neither praising it nor damning it. I am simply pointing it that it exists because Harvard has decided that it should exist. Furthermore, a HES degree is a legitimate Harvard degree because Harvard says it is. Like it or not, that's the situation.
If you really don't like the situation for whatever reason, hey, don't blame me. I didn't create HES. Nobody asked me whether HES should be offering Harvard degrees or not. If you really don't like it, then take it up with the Harvard administration and tell them to shut down HES. I only wish you good luck with that, considering that HES has existed for almost a century. |
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Date: March 6th, 2005 10:39 AM Author: brindle submissive casino "Like I said before, why exactly do you feel the need to to point out whether HES is real or not? What is it to you anyway? Why do you care so much about what Harvard is doing? It seems like you're the troll that needs thumping."
All those questions have been answered for you repeatedly. Look at the OP--he's asking for opinions. I gave him one. (And hey, note that like the first four or five responses he got, before you HES trolls showed up to insult dentists and education people and Yale nursing and everyone else, also basically agreed with me!)
And if I'M the troll, how come YOU keep bumping a month-old thread?? |
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Date: March 19th, 2005 8:39 AM Author: trip indian lodge preventive strike Look, I am no more of a troll than you are. So if you want to be looking for trolls, I would suggest first looking in the mirror. You are free to stop posting on the thread at any time.
You have given your opinion. Fine. And I have given mine. And mine has been consistent throughout. HES degrees are real degrees because Harvard says they are, and Harvard gets to make the rules. If you don't like that, then get Harvard to change the rules. But as of this time, Harvard says that HES degrees are real degrees, and that's really the end of the story.
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Date: March 6th, 2005 6:59 AM Author: outnumbered drab ticket booth Right, I think that the concept that is (understandably) difficult for people to grasp is the fact that a single university can have programs of varying prestige and selectivity. It's easy to view a school like Harvard as a single body with uniformly consistent standards, regardless of the program quality. The fact is that the HES ALM, while a "real" degree, is not viewed in the same light as, say, an AB or an AM from Harvard. It's not a difficult concept, in theory, but I can see and appreciate both sides of the argument. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#2267840) |
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Date: March 6th, 2005 10:40 AM Author: Hairless Bipolar Corn Cake Joe, in your post, you're effectively assuming what the HES supporters are arguing against. Why is it singling out HES to to contend that the degree is real? If we were talking about any other school at Harvard, you wouldn't say that.
I got into this argument when you started dismissing the quality of HES. You called it the worst school (or something similar) at Harvard. You made other comments that I think would be very upsetting to smart people I know who worked very hard for degrees from there. Would I be trolling if you called the MPP the worst Harvard degree and I got upset because I knew a friend who worked very hard for his MPP? You didn't think it was trolling when that guy posted in defense of every school that had been attacked here except HES (and none were attacked as directly or persistently). |
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Date: March 6th, 2005 10:57 AM Author: brindle submissive casino "Why is it singling out HES to to contend that the degree is real?"
Yes, the degree is real--that wasn't the OP's question! My statements were all made in response to the OP's query of whether or not "PEOPLE CONSIDER" Harvard Extension degrees to be "real" Harvard degrees (the OP's use of quotes around "real" indicates to me that he had a more connotative and less literal meaning in mind than you might--I think this is obvious because the literal question is answered prima facie, while the connotative one is not).
My opinion of that, as a "person" was: no, I do not. Although they're obviously real Harvard degrees in the most literal sense, I don't believe that "people" consider them to be "real" Harvard degrees. I certainly don't. You certainly may disagree. Assuming the question was not merely flamebaiting, I assume a response as a "person" is entirely appropriate. And you'll notice, before the trolls set in, that the first 4 or 5 (i.e. probably the most honest) responses agreed with me. |
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Date: March 6th, 2005 12:32 PM Author: Hairless Bipolar Corn Cake I feel you're backing away from a stronger position. You've made some pretty disparaging and dismissive comments about HEs. Maybe it's just hard to tell when you're goading and when you're being sincere.
Personally, I don't really care one way or the other whether the degree is considered "real". You're certainly correct that most people wouldn't consider it real, but they would probably say the same of a bunch of other Harvard degrees. That position would actually be more defensible, I think.
My problem is with evaluating the quality of the degree based entirely on admissions. It's a very cynical way to view education. HES has some good quality science degrees that don't involve distance learning. Why are those "worse" than all these other Harvard degrees with fewer requirements and possibly less demanding coursework?
Actually, the post that most annoyed me off wasn't yours. Someone posted that they wouldn't take an HES masters seriously in grad admissions (say for a English to PoliSci changer) because it was open admissions. They recommended getting a masters from Columbia or NYU (which is more money, fewer courses, less flexibility, no better faculty) instead. That seemed so irrational that I had to post. |
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Date: March 6th, 2005 2:04 PM Author: brindle submissive casino "You've made some pretty disparaging and dismissive comments about HEs."
Nothing compared to your ally who has disparaged huge swaths of academia with his ill-considered "defense" of HES.
"You're certainly correct that most people wouldn't consider it real, but they would probably say the same of a bunch of other Harvard degrees. That position would actually be more defensible, I think."
I disagree--I think many people would "think less" of various degree programs at Harvard than others, but that HES is the ONLY one they would single out as "not really a Harvard degree."
"Someone posted that they wouldn't take an HES masters seriously in grad admissions..."
Well, to be honest, as a future college professor (and therefore hopefully someone taking on grad students) I probably wouldn't take an HES master's as seriously as virtually any other master's, either. I would expect more outside evidence of scholarship (a copy of the thesis, whatever) than otherwise, most likely. Sorry. |
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Date: March 6th, 2005 6:44 PM Author: Hairless Bipolar Corn Cake From what I've observed, HES is more rigorous than many regular admission programs at various schools, yet you would take it less seriously solely because it was open admissions. You would take the NYU or Columbia masters more seriously simply because there was a nominal selection process. How sad. Thankfully most adcoms aren't that irrational. The postbac premed program does just as well as many "selective"bb programs. It's funny too. I know several very smart people from top undergrads who did the program and they found the courses pretty challenging. I guess they weren't as smart as I thought.
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Date: March 6th, 2005 7:38 PM Author: brindle submissive casino "You would take the NYU or Columbia masters more seriously simply because there was a nominal selection process."
No, there are a lot more reasons than that, many of them detailed on this thread. Also, after this thread, unfortunately I might tend to associate them with the sort of irrational thought exhibited here. |
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Date: March 6th, 2005 7:02 PM Author: up-to-no-good 180 old irish cottage crackhouse A couple of interesting things.
You graduated from undergrad last year and you have already annoited yourself a "future college professor" for purposes of lending, presumably, more credence to your opinion.
Second, why would it be taken less seriously than "virtually any other master's?" Why not look at it based upon the individual circumstances? |
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Date: March 6th, 2005 7:26 PM Author: Hairless Bipolar Corn Cake Don't even bother trying. I've been beating this to death for a while and it's no use.
Incidentally, Joe, I'm also a "future college professor", and I've actually been through the graduate admissions process already. Not that this gives my opinions any more credibility. |
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Date: March 6th, 2005 7:45 PM Author: brindle submissive casino "Incidentally, Joe, I'm also a 'future college professor', and I've actually been through the graduate admissions process already."
Do you know me? (The fact that you use "I've actually been through the graduate admissions process already" in an attempt to one-up me indicates that you probably don't.) So have I. Two years in a row, in fact. With a 100% success rate (8-for-8 over the two years) at 7 top programs and 1 safety. I've also been a voting member of a top college admissions committee.
I don't generally advertise any of those facts because I'm no braggart, but since you wanted to get into a pissing contest, there you go. |
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Date: March 6th, 2005 8:07 PM Author: up-to-no-good 180 old irish cottage crackhouse Doesn't change the fact that calling yourself a "future college professor" is awfully presumptuous. By the way, you should look into the stats or read the articles about some people who spend years getting top ranked Ph.Ds and do multiple post-docs all with the hope of making it to a tenure track position. Many of these folks never make it. And they are in a hell of lot better position to be calling themselves "future college professors."
Now I'm sure you are telling yourself how much smarter, more qualified, etc. you are than these losers but I think you'd be surprised at the struggle that is involved for even very bright and well qualified folks. |
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Date: March 6th, 2005 8:35 PM Author: brindle submissive casino If I manage to finish my PhD (which I believe that I will), I don't think I'll have much trouble finding a faculty position SOMEPLACE. Engineering is not nearly as competitive as disciplines where academia is virtually the only employment option for PhDs.
And hey, I could certainly get a job teaching at Harvard Extension School! |
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Date: March 6th, 2005 8:49 PM Author: pontificating green dilemma idiot Don't count on getting an HES teaching job unless you've already got a tenure-track job at another division of Harvard, or MIT, or Tufts, or comparable institution, and have held it for some time. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#2271197) |
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Date: March 6th, 2005 8:53 PM Author: brindle submissive casino Thanks for the tip! I'll file that one away. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#2271238) |
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Date: March 6th, 2005 9:55 PM Author: up-to-no-good 180 old irish cottage crackhouse You'd be surprised. At least you recognize now that being at the point where you haven't even started your Ph.D is a ways from being an actual professor. Quite a few roadblocks along the way. You could even be one of those guys that just has bad luck with lab results and don't finish the Ph.D. Who knows. Everything is easy until you do it. High schools across America are full of stud high school all american athletes who call themselves can't miss future NBA players. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#2271798) |
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Date: March 7th, 2005 2:49 PM Author: brindle submissive casino Don't patronize. And I HAVE started the PhD. Finishing my course requirements this semester as a matter of fact. (Now, there is some question of whether I will come back to UMich, do the D.Phil. at Oxford, or virtually start over at Caltech--but I AM finishing the first part of the Michigan PhD program.)
I'm still 100% confident that I can get a job at a TTT if necessary (of course, if it comes to that I would likely pick a government lab instead). |
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Date: March 6th, 2005 8:54 PM Author: pontificating green dilemma idiot Voting on whether to feed the admits Krispy Kreme donuts or Dunkin Donuts donuts on admit weekend doesn't make you a "voting member of a top college admissions committee." (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#2271256) |
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Date: March 6th, 2005 8:59 PM Author: brindle submissive casino No, but voting on whether or not to admit individual students does.
The donuts on admit weekend are ALWAYS Donut Man donuts, anyway, and the only question is how many to order. That's a long-standing tradition handled by the student government, not the admissions committee, though (they actually do midnight donuts once a term, not just during admit weekend, and every week of the year they're available on Friday morning). |
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Date: March 6th, 2005 8:59 PM Author: Hairless Bipolar Corn Cake I never claimed to know you. Why would I? I thought you were doing the Rhodes and then applying. I don't have a Rhodes, but I can hold my own in this contest. I'm not gonna get into it though. I was trying to "one-up" you in terms of relevant admissions experience, not accomplishments. Funny how there's a connection between judging HES on selectivity and misinterpreting my comments.
My opinion of you has steadily decreased in the last several posts. I've wasted far too much time posting about this. Think what you want.
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Date: March 6th, 2005 9:01 PM Author: brindle submissive casino "I was trying to 'one-up' you in terms of relevant admissions experience, not accomplishments."
Pretty juvenile, and a contest that you'd lose anyway. |
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Date: March 6th, 2005 9:03 PM Author: pontificating green dilemma idiot Nah, he didn't have to settle for a state school (Michigan) and a vocational school (Caltech). (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#2271351) |
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Date: March 6th, 2005 9:05 PM Author: brindle submissive casino Hahahahaha! I didn't "settle" for either of those. They were my top choices of some very good options. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#2271369) |
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Date: March 6th, 2005 9:07 PM Author: pontificating green dilemma idiot Keep telling yourself that big boy. Every time people see Caltech undergrad on your resume you know they'll be thinking "Hmm, guess he couldn't get into MIT," and when they see a terminal master's from Michigan they'll think "Wow, he must've really had to fuck up to enroll in a master's program at his state school." (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#2271387) |
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Date: March 6th, 2005 9:16 PM Author: brindle submissive casino I got into MIT for both undergrad and grad school. (And that's the real MIT, not "MIT Extension" or any such thing.)
Also, I think the Rhodes is generally considered an acceptable reason for leaving one's current academic program with a master's. (It's actually not a terminal master's, though; it's an incidental master's.) |
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Date: March 6th, 2005 9:18 PM Author: pontificating green dilemma idiot Have fun explaining that at future interviews.
Assuming, of course, that you don't already have "Accepted at MIT but turned down for Caltech" somewhere on your resume. |
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Date: March 6th, 2005 9:58 PM Author: brindle submissive casino Somehow, I doubt it will come up. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#2271822) |
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Date: March 19th, 2005 8:27 AM Author: trip indian lodge preventive strike If MIT did decide to run an MIT Extension that offered degrees, then those degrees would be real MIT degrees, because MIT is allowed to make the rules about what sorts of degrees it wants to grant. Each school has the right to decide what degrees it wants to hand out. Whether we agree or disagree with those decisions is not the issue. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#2360791) |
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Date: March 7th, 2005 1:05 PM Author: Motley crusty half-breed It is a dumb way to advance an argument, no doubt.
However, given the track record of Rhodes scholars pursuing academic employment, it's probably a lot less presumptuous for him to say he's a 'future college professor' than the average dick on the street.
Again, it's a dumb way to advance an argument. But it's not an unreasonable statement on its own merits (as annoying as that may be)... |
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Date: March 7th, 2005 2:19 PM Author: brindle submissive casino Thank you. I did NOT want to come right out and say that, but it's basically my impression (based upon what others have told me, including two college presidents) that I will be able to at least get a job at some second-tier school without a lot of trouble. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#2276467) |
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Date: March 7th, 2005 4:40 PM Author: up-to-no-good 180 old irish cottage crackhouse I wouldn't be too quick to thank him. He basically said your assertion does not advance your argument. Or did you miss that part? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#2277531) |
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Date: March 7th, 2005 4:58 PM Author: brindle submissive casino He confirmed that it was factually valid (which it is, and which you STILL seem to be having some trouble with below!), and then gave his own opinion. I'll certainly take that. He supported the key part of the argument. While it may be "dumb" it IS at least anecdotally valid because it is reasonable to assume that someday I WILL be a college prof. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#2277650) |
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Date: March 7th, 2005 5:08 PM Author: up-to-no-good 180 old irish cottage crackhouse Let me spell it out for you. He told you that your argument is dumb because the mere fact that it may be true that you will be a college professor does not advance your argument about HES one way or the other. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#2277765) |
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Date: March 7th, 2005 5:11 PM Author: brindle submissive casino One step at a time. So you're accepting the first part of his post? (That it's not unreasonable for me to claim to be a future professor?) Because you seem to take issue with that below. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#2277808) |
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Date: March 7th, 2005 5:16 PM Author: up-to-no-good 180 old irish cottage crackhouse I'm saying I don't care if he is right or not because that is not HIS POINT. His point is that even if it were the case, it doesn't advance your argument. Do you get that?! That is the point. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#2277863) |
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Date: March 7th, 2005 5:22 PM Author: brindle submissive casino I'll accept that with a small adjustment. He didn't say "even if it were the case, it doesn't advance your argument."
He said "that is the case, but it doesn't advance your argument." |
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Date: March 19th, 2005 9:31 AM Author: trip indian lodge preventive strike First of all, he's not my ally. I am not here to try to make allies.
Secondly, I know for a fact that I've heard people consider other, non-HES, Harvard degrees as not really Harvard degrees.
But again, all of that is neither here nor there. Harvard says that HES degrees are real degrees, so if somebody who has one says he is a Harvard graduate, he is not lying, nor has he behaved unethically, because what he is saying is factually true. If you don't like that, then take it up with Harvard. I didn't create the rules to determine who gets to call themselves a Harvard graduate. Harvard created those rules. If you don't like those rules, then take it up with Harvard. |
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Date: March 7th, 2005 1:00 PM Author: Diverse crystalline codepig " You didn't think it was trolling when that guy posted in defense of every school that had been attacked here except HES"
Speaking as 'that guy', I would clarify three things about this:
1) I found it uniquely hypocritical that someone would choose to defend a program's legitimacy by way of insulting a ton of other programs, and that's why I singled out sakky's attacks on other programs for analysis first.
2) Joe at least was making arguments that were germane to the topic of the thread; I didn't see a reason why the debate couldn't be restricted to a reasonable discussion of HES' quality without issuing random (and even more egregiously, factually inaccurate) characterizations of other degree programs around the country; especially when Joe's characterizations tended more toward the 'there's an open admissions policy' variety while sakky's characterizations were more explicitly in the vein of 'look, kids in X program at Y school are dumbasses, but their degree is still a Y school degree'.
3) All of that said, I basically agree with you that HES is getting a raw deal on here and from Joe, particularly within the confines of the discussion of the ALM as a 'real' Harvard degree, which it obviously is. The reason I didn't mention that at the time was simply because I didn't think 'joe is doing it too' or 'when he apologizes i'll apologize' was an intelligent (or even relevant) position for sakky to take, and so I didn't want to 'feed the troll', so to speak, without trying to force him to deal with the criticism of HIS conduct independently. Since it's been about a month now and this sakky character hasn't been able to muster the maturity to admit that, I figure the battle is already lost and don't really have any qualms about pointing out that I have similar problems with Joe's conduct. |
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Date: March 7th, 2005 2:23 PM Author: brindle submissive casino So in other words, you disagree with me substantively, which is fine.
I think discussion of the Harvard ALM degree (in both positive and negative ways) is well within the context of the OP's question. I have tried to stay within that context the whole time.
I'll also point out this thread was dead for over a week, settled, and sliding down the page fast when "sakky" decided to bump it again two days ago with this missive on the nature of insults: http://www.xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783#2264009 |
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Date: March 8th, 2005 9:40 AM Author: Diverse crystalline codepig Yeah look, sakky clearly doesn't know his hand from his ass, and seems delightfully immature. And you have basically been germane.
But look, shouldn't you just drop it, already? I mean, who cares if Extension school kids want to say they went to Harvard? It seems dumb to evaluate people in broad categories (i.e., ALM from the Extension School --> Dumbass) without looking at the context in which these people attended the institution, what they did there, how well they performed, and what they've done before/since.
Frankly, I don't really think Harvard College is aching to have it's honor defended here, and I find the tone of their student paper's coverage of Duff et al to be arrogant and distasteful.
Anyway, I don't want to get into the debate; certainly not when it'd put me on the side of that other moron. I just wanted to clarify what i'd said and why i'd said it. |
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Date: March 8th, 2005 4:05 PM Author: brindle submissive casino "shouldn't you just drop it, already?"
Yes, I should (and had for a couple weeks). But I have to admit that I'm argumentative and when this thread got bumped again, I jumped right back in. |
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Date: March 19th, 2005 8:23 AM Author: trip indian lodge preventive strike So you admit that you can't drop it?
Look, Joe, HES is what it is. I'm not here to say that HES is great, and I never have. My position has been consistent - HES degrees are real Harvard degrees because Harvard says so, and Harvard is allowed to make the rules. Whether you happen to like the rules or not is not the issue. There are lots of rules that I don't like, but that doesn't mean that they aren't "real" rules. I don't like having to stop at red lights at 3 in the morning when there is nobody around, but hey, I do it because I don't want to get ticketed. The rules are real, whether I like them or not. |
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Date: March 19th, 2005 8:16 AM Author: trip indian lodge preventive strike So you choose to complain about insults by insulting me? Hey, you know what they say about those who live in glass houses. On the one hand, you feign all this sensitivity towards insults, yet you seem to have absolutely no problem with throwing it out yourself. So tell me, who doesn't know his hand from his ass? Who's being immature? Who's the moron? Oh, I see.
Look, if you're in the Boston area (and no, Joe, I don't go to HES), I'm happy to talk about this problem you apparently have with me face to face, anytime you want, anywhere you want.
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Date: March 6th, 2005 9:00 PM Author: pontificating green dilemma idiot http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/2005/03.03/05-bigpic.html (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#2271308) |
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Date: March 19th, 2005 8:32 AM Author: trip indian lodge preventive strike It is of course true that some people who go to Harvard are uncomfortable with the HES school. But as I've been saying throughout this whole thread, Harvard gets to make the rules about what kinds of programs it runs and degrees it offers. If existing or former Harvard students are uncomfortable with HES, then they should take it up with the Harvard administration and get things changed. I would only caution that HES has existed in some form for about a century, and clearly its existence hasn't hurt Harvard that badly.
Hence, Joe, if you're so incensed about the existence of HES, then take it up with the Harvard administration. Why do you choose to challenge me or anybody else here on this board? Did I create HES? Am I responsible for running HES? I don't think so. If you really think that HES is a problem, then you should take it up with the people who are actually creating the problem. |
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Date: March 6th, 2005 9:11 PM Author: pontificating green dilemma idiot Care to comment on this guy, Joe (Vocational School '04, State School '05)?
http://www.dce.harvard.edu/pubs/lamplighter/1997/fall/star.html
A Rising Star
Curtis Signorino, a 1993 graduate of the Extension School's Master of Liberal Arts Program (ALM), recently made headlines throughout academia--he has accepted a tenure-track teaching job before he finishes his PhD. The front-page story in the September 5 issue of the Chronicle of Higher Education depicted Signorino as "a rising star."
Signorino's rise to stardom began when he was an ALM student in the history of conflict and war. While studying qualitative measures, he questioned a statistical technique discussed in one of his classes and in a textbook written by Gary King, Professor of Government at Harvard University. He introduced himself to Professor King, who then confirmed his interpretation, implemented the correction, and hired him as a research assistant.
The rest of the history unfolds in somewhat more expected fashion. Signorino completed his master's degree at the Extension School, including a thesis on international conflict, and continued his studies in a doctoral program at Harvard's Graduate School of Arts and Sciences. With one year left to complete his PhD, he was tendered faculty positions and accepted an appointment as an assistant professor in the political science department at the University of Rochester, where he will begin teaching in 1998.
Signorino began Extension studies simply to improve his work as an officer in the Air Force and for the intellectual challenge. At that time, five years after finishing his undergraduate degree in computer engineering, he had no thought whatsoever of a change in career.
In retrospect, Signorino views the ALM as an "extraordinary experience." He feels he learned more about critical thought in his studies at the Extension School than in his earlier work in math and science. Through an oversight in a textbook and through his expertise on the statistics of international relations first developed at the Extension School, he found himself a new career.
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Date: March 6th, 2005 9:17 PM Author: brindle submissive casino "Care to comment on this guy, Joe (Vocational School '04, State School '05)?"
hahahahahahahaha!
What will your slur on Oxford be? |
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Date: March 7th, 2005 1:14 PM Author: Diverse crystalline codepig No slurs there. Oxford is a perfectly respectable #2 UK institution, though the griminess of its industrial town surroundings leave something to be desired.
Seriously, the time has come for you to stop acting like a giant prick. |
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Date: March 7th, 2005 2:39 PM Author: brindle submissive casino The time has perhaps come for me to leave the board altogether. It's not productive and the trolls get at me too easily. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#2276599) |
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Date: March 8th, 2005 9:42 AM Author: Diverse crystalline codepig I'm just not particularly impressed with your willingness to engage in any of this. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#2284041) |
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Date: March 8th, 2005 4:06 PM Author: brindle submissive casino Me either, particularly, but I'm argumentative by nature, although I don't "fight dirty." (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#2286395) |
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Date: March 7th, 2005 6:00 AM Author: Demanding domesticated parlor I don't think it's really that unusual for people to get tenure-track job offers before they finish their PhD. I know of two tenure-track profs at my school who began teaching here before they had their doctorates. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#2274894) |
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Date: March 7th, 2005 2:18 PM Author: up-to-no-good 180 old irish cottage crackhouse Yeah but Joe hasn't even started his Ph.D program. The guy has a ways to go and he's already a "future college professor."
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Date: March 7th, 2005 2:27 PM Author: brindle submissive casino Actually, I have. I'm in the first year of the PhD program at UMich. I'm leaving with just the incidental master's degree to go to Oxford, but I will be finished with all of my doctoral course requirements and would have only quals and the thesis remaining should I choose to come back to Michigan after.
I personally don't consider it unreasonable to assume that I could at least get a job at a second-tier school. (Although it is certainly quite possible that I would choose NASA or another government lab over a TTT.) |
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Date: March 7th, 2005 3:25 PM Author: up-to-no-good 180 old irish cottage crackhouse Oh, is that all? Just the quals and the dissertation. You do know that the disseration is the hard part? I'm not saying you aren't going to get it done (though it does stop some smart people) but having satisfied the coursework alone (not even having passed the quals) is but a relatively small step in the process.
I've even seen some douche claim to be something like "one lab course short" of a Ph.D. Very conveniently just glossing over that little step known as writing and defending the dissertation. |
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Date: March 7th, 2005 3:54 PM Author: brindle submissive casino Let's review: "Yeah but Joe hasn't even started his Ph.D program" was your initial contention.
So I tell you that I've finished year 1 of what is usually a 5 year program and you counter with "that's not very far along." Well, duh. It's 1 year out of 5. But it's plently enough to put the lie to your claim that I "haven't even started." I will also point out that most people in the program take 1.5 years to finish their coursework requirements; I accelerated because I know I'm not going to be here next year and wanted to have that done before I leave. |
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Date: March 7th, 2005 4:34 PM Author: up-to-no-good 180 old irish cottage crackhouse Fine, I did not know you had started. Factual mistake. You however, have just started and haven't even passed your qualifying exams much less done the lab work for your dissertation much less written your dissertation much less defended your dissertation much less actually gotten your position. Who's mistake is worse? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#2277489) |
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Date: March 7th, 2005 5:00 PM Author: brindle submissive casino Yours. You were *definitely* wrong (said I hadn't started yet), and I am *most likely* right (claiming that I will be a professor).
See http://www.xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783#2275959 for some help on this point, if needed. |
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Date: March 7th, 2005 5:02 PM Author: up-to-no-good 180 old irish cottage crackhouse God you are an idiot. My mistake is a factual mistake - not a mistake in reasoning. It is akin to saying NYC has a population of 7 million when the answer is that is has a population of 6 million. Your mistake is saying that two plus two equals five. Yours is worse because you had all the facts and still drew the wrong conclusion. Let me spell it out for you. A grad student is not the same thing as a future college professor. A future college professor is someone who has an offer in hand. A grad student is someone perhaps hoping to get that offer in hand. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#2277698) |
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Date: March 7th, 2005 5:05 PM Author: brindle submissive casino Let me spell it out for you: Rhodes Scholars who intend to have academic careers generally don't have trouble either with finishing their degrees OR with getting offers.
It's not an unreasonable statement on its own merits (as annoying for you as that may be)...
See http://www.xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783#2275959 for some help with this, if needed. |
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Date: March 7th, 2005 5:15 PM Author: up-to-no-good 180 old irish cottage crackhouse God you are one insecure person. I can only guess what your life must have been like at Cal Tech. In a school full of nerds, you were probably the one other nerds thought of when they wanted to feel better about themselves. I'll stroke your ego. You are a smart guy. Do you realize however that arguments must stand on their own merits and the mere fact that you say something is so doesn't make it so when there is so much contrary evidence? Even Linus Pauling didn't quite get the DNA structure right, notwithstanding the fact that he is one of the greatest scientists of all time. If even a Linus Pauling saying something is so doesn't make it so, then perhaps you should get off the pedastal. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#2277852) |
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Date: March 7th, 2005 5:18 PM Author: brindle submissive casino So you think the relative worth of a Harvard Extension degree and a "real" (YOUR word in the OP, not mine) Harvard degree is something as easily and definably quantifiable as the structure of DNA? Obviously Linus Pauling's word doesn't change the physical structure of the universe (nor would he have wanted it to, of course!) but I think his word would have carried a LOT of weight (way moreso than mine or yours) if he had been, say, opining on something as squishy as the relative prestige or value of various academic programs. Which is, after all, what we are doing here.
"In a school full of nerds, you were probably the one other nerds thought of when they wanted to feel better about themselves"
I don't know about that... I won two of three school-wide student government elections that I entered (which is not a very important thing by itself, of course; I mention it just as a counter for that point). I tended to be a polarizing person, for sure--they were all fairly close elections--but definitely not universally disliked or anything like that. Generally people either really liked me or really didn't. |
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Date: March 7th, 2005 10:32 PM Author: Demanding domesticated parlor I was actually commenting on the way the article seemed to imply that the guy was exceptional primarily because he got a job offer from a school before he was done with his PhD, which actually happens to Kennedy School people all the time.
And I don't think it's that unreasonable to think that Joe is going to be a college professor at some point. It's not like making the NBA, a laughable analogy that somebody, maybe you, made.
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Date: March 7th, 2005 10:50 PM Author: brindle submissive casino Yeah, academia isn't quite as competitive as professional athletics, that's for sure. (Certainly not for engineering; it IS much worse in most of the liberal arts subjects where universities offer the only jobs open to PhDs).
More analagous to my assumption of an academic career is how everyone on the law board who gets into a T14 law school assumes that they will be able to get a $125K BIGLAW job when they will graduate, when in fact that is merely "very likely" rather than "completely assured." |
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Date: March 7th, 2005 7:07 PM Author: Henna volcanic crater orchestra pit Subject: HES Degrees and Students http://www.extension.harvard.edu/2004-05/help/default.jsp#rigorous |
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Date: March 7th, 2005 10:45 PM Author: brindle submissive casino To be honest, after reading that post I'm a bit ashamed for academia that you had a 3.66 anyplace, even if it WAS Harvard Extension. "list and describe you’re degree properly," etc. Are you serious? That post does NOT improve my opinion of Harvard Extension one bit (in contrast to the usually quite impressive posts of GTO, your fellow HES alum).
"So don’t worry about guys like Joe all they do with their degrees from M.I.T. Extension School are light SUV’s on fire."
Cottrell doesn't have a Caltech degree of any sort. I know it might be confusing because at Harvard Extension you can get a degree with only 1 term in residence and online classes, but Caltech doesn't offer any programs like that.
Also, Cottrell was never a Caltech undergrad, so I don't particularly feel insulted about slams on him. Go right ahead. He went to the University of Chicago and had been on campus for not very long when he torched those SUVs. I'm fairly sure everyone at Caltech hates him even more than Harvard students hated that guy from HES who was trying to impersonate a Harvard undergrad for awhile.
Neither Caltech nor MIT have extension schools. HTH.
"Remember our requirements for receiving our undergraduate degrees were the exact requirements as at Harvard College"
Oh really?? Harvard College students also are allowed to get (without even transferring!) up to HALF of their degree credits at a non-Harvard school? Harvard College students are also required to complete "at least 32 units at Harvard Extension School"? Can they get by with only 6 Harvard College classes ever?
"my actual degree says on it (besides A.L.B. Harvard University -not A.L.B. Extension-)"
I thought Harvard Degrees were in Latin... |
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Date: March 8th, 2005 2:28 AM Author: outnumbered drab ticket booth Perhaps I'm interjecting where I need not, but whatever you do, you need *not* insult anybody's grade point average. I have worked very hard for 4 long years to graduate with a respectable GPA from Northwestern and am currently awaiting graduate school decisions. Try as I may, my GPA is not a 3.66. I understand your position on HES, though I may not agree with it, but insulting GPAs is treading where the ice begins to thin. Please be careful, as you may insult people that you don't mean to offend. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#2283112) |
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Date: March 8th, 2005 5:09 AM Author: brindle submissive casino I think you misunderstood my post. I'm not insulting a 3.66 (or any GPA, for that matter) at all. I think a 3.66 is a great GPA (higher than my current GPA in fact).
What I said boils down to "your post, which is full of misspellings and poor grammar, doesn't look like it was written by someone who was able to get a 3.66." Which would imply that I view 3.66 as a HIGH average. Which I do. Hope this helps. |
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Date: March 8th, 2005 11:32 AM Author: outnumbered drab ticket booth Yeah, I apologize for that earlier post. I had skimmed both his post and yours, and after a long, frustrating day, I'd jumped to some incorrect conclusions. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#2284520) |
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Date: March 20th, 2005 2:26 PM Author: brindle submissive casino Hey sakky--why the hell do you keep bumping this thread, fool?
This is like the third time, now, that you've bumped it after it's been dead for WEEKS. You're one obsessive mofo. |
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Date: May 1st, 2005 4:01 AM Author: Laughsome haunted graveyard Subject: your opinions? I was wondering what everyones opinion would be on something. Let me begin by saying I'm an undergrad student at Stetson University (sometimes coined the "Harvard of the south". In high school I never received the best grades, my sat's were 1160, and I was a pretty good athlete. I could have taken a scholarship at a mediocre university but I figured then that maybe it was time to turn a new leaf and focus on academics, Stetson offered the most academically. There was honestly an oppurtunity for me to make it to the olympics had I worked hard enough, but of course theres never any guarantees. So my first semester here I got C's but second semester I finally applied myself and got all A's. Now a coach has tried to get me to join his team next year at a community college. So my first question is, what is everyones opinion on Stetson? Second of corse is what would you pick to do in my case? My options I've considered are: 1)Join team and work towards being a great athlete while keeping my grades up and hoping I can transfer into a better university. 2) Try Harvards ALB program while possibly being in military. 3) Stay at Stetson, where I currently major in Business Econ My main goal is simply to get into a great hopefully Ivy league graduate school. Sorry for being so long winded but this is really important to me. Thanx[sic] |
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Date: May 1st, 2005 4:58 AM Author: Tan field wagecucks For crissake, don't go to Harvard extension school. It's basically a diploma mill. A degree from HES isn't worth the paper its printed on. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#2671007) |
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Date: May 17th, 2005 11:40 PM Author: razzmatazz lodge Is it any different from HBS's exec-education program? The classrooms for those programs are invariably packed. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#2809870) |
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Date: May 16th, 2005 4:28 PM Author: ocher impertinent theater stage factory reset button Subject: HES Classes I'm not sure where all the animosity towards HES students is coming from or why it is warranted. All I can figure is some people feel that a difficult admissions process is what makes their degree worth more than anyone else's. I wholeheartedly disagree, but as the product of a non-ivy level public university, I doubt my opinion will matter much on this board.
Ok, to get to the point - I took a couple of Harvard Summer School extension classes as an undergraduate and it was a wonderful experience! I had outstanding professors (Marjorie Garber an internationally renowned Shakespeare scholar, and Werner Sollors an equally celebrated Professor of English Lit.), and met incredible people - most of whom were "real" Harvard students. In fact, I think I was one of two non-Harvard students in Sollors' class that summer. Some were even Harvard graduates. The classes were demanding and the professors/TA's made no distinction between Harvard undergrads and HES students.
Although it was pricey, I would say it was worth every penny. I am in academic/career limbo while my boyfriend (who I met through a connection made at HES) finishes law school in W'Burg VA, but I look forward to the day I can return to Boston and take a few more courses with students and professors of Harvard's calibre (I am considering the Museum Studies program)-- even if some do not think my academic pedigree worthy of such company. Don't let the nay-sayers keep you down. It's not *where* you get your education that matters; it's how you use it. |
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Date: May 16th, 2005 9:04 PM Author: Tan field wagecucks The problem with the extension program isn't the lack of admissions rigor, but rather the fact that you don't have to take a single regular harvard class with real harvard students in order to get the degree. They only have to take special, watered down classes. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#2801508) |
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Date: May 16th, 2005 9:29 PM Author: outnumbered drab ticket booth Wow, this debate is still going?
I just see extension programs as having a purpose all their own. Most people would not view a M.A. from Arts and Sciences at Harvard with the same reverence that they might view a medical degree from HMS. It doesn't mean that the M.A. isn't a "real" Harvard degree or that it isn't impressive. It just serves a different purpose than other degrees from the same university. An M.A. degree won't qualify somebody to perform surgery, but it might make somebody more marketable as a consultant, just as an MBA won't qualify somebody to teach English.
HES is no different. Extension schools are programs designed for working adults wishing to continue their education in some capacity, usually in the evening, not necessarily for a degree. Those who do earn degrees do indeed have Harvard degrees, but they are not serving the same purpose as does a full-time degree from Harvard College or from Arts & Sciences. I believe that different degrees from one school can have varying levels of prestige. I do see extension schools at the bottom of the academic/prestige food chain, though. |
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Date: May 16th, 2005 11:58 PM Author: Tan field wagecucks The difference is, even an MA from harvard's faculty of arts and sciences requires a student to take real courses with real harvard students and/or do research with real harvard faculty. HES involves taking dumbed down classes with middling students taught mostly by adjuncts and nontenured lecturers. The lack of respect the rest of harvard gives to extension courses is reflected in the fact that students from other harvard programs are virtually never given university credit for any extension courses they take. It's fair to say that HES is pretty close to a diploma mill. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#2802745) |
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Date: May 17th, 2005 12:18 AM Author: outnumbered drab ticket booth Well you're not gonna get an argument from me. As an incoming Arts & Sciences M.A. student (not at Harvard, admittedly), I would hope that the gradaute program to which I worked hard to gain admission would draw more water than would an extension program.
I think that being a HES graduate is akin to playing minor league baseball for the Yankees. Most minor leaguers never have a shot in hell of playing for the big club, yet they're still part of the Yankee organization. It doesn't mean that they get to wear a World Series ring or play in Yankee Stadium. They can, however, accurately claim to have "played minor league ball for the Yankees," just as an HES student, on his or her resume, might indicate an ALM from Harvard. |
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Date: May 17th, 2005 1:21 AM Author: razzmatazz lodge So I just discovered this thread and I spent well over an hour reviewing all of the posts, as well as reading some of the links provided. Here are my thoughts.
While I think we can all agree that HES is one of the less rigorous programs at Harvard, I think I have to agree with some of the posters like sakky, soon2bunemployed, and others and say that, basically, "it is what it is". Harvard has numerous degree programs, and I'm sure if we were to sit down and enumerate all of Harvard's degree programs and rank them, we would find that some of them are exceedingly difficult, while others are relatively easy. Yet they are all 'real' Harvard degrees, in the sense that Harvard ultimately makes the decision about to who it should award the degrees.
So it has also been asserted that we should be looking at the word 'real' in a more colloquial sense, and hence HEs degrees are not 'real' when you look at it in that light, the reasons provided are that it doesn't have a stringent admissions process, you take classes with non-Harvard students, etc. Hence, basically, it has been asserted that a HES ALM degree is not a 'real' Harvard degree because it is probably less rigorous than the average Harvard degree to obtain. And I think that's probably true. Yet I am not entirely sure that it is the easiest Harvard degree program. As others have pointed out, there may well be other Harvard degree programs that may be even less rigorous than the HES ALM.
So, the question does become, as has been stated before, where do you draw the line? I agree that as an ALM student, you may well be taking courses with middling students taught by lots of nontenured lecturers. However, if we investigated hard enough, the same might be said of some of the other Harvard degree programs. Again, keep in mind that Harvard consists of many degree programs in many individual Harvard schools, and I'm sure if we looked around, we would find other Harvard degree programs that also had plenty of middling (for Harvard) students, lots of nontenured lecturers, lack of a stringent admissions process, and so forth.
In fact, if I may digress slightly, I can think of a such a program right now. Not a degree program, but a Harvard program nonetheless, that allows one to register oneself as a Harvard alumni, have a permanent email forwarding email address, join the Harvard club, and basically have almost all the privileges of being a Harvard graduate.
I am referring to the executive education programs at Harvard Business School (HBS), for example, the Advanced Management Program (AMP), the General Manager Program (TGMP), the Program for Management Development (PMD), and the Owner/President Management Program (OPM). Basically, these are akin to "pseudo-MBA's" that HBS hands out. These programs take very little time to complete - for example, the AMP program takes only a total of 8 weeks to complete.
Nor is the admissions process particularly stringent. Yes, there is an admissions process, but it is perfunctory. No transcripts are required, no GMAT or GRE scores are needed, no recommendations are needed. Just a few short essay questions and a brief description of your work background are necessary. Yes, you do require company sponsorship, but in the case of the PMD program, which caters to the self-employed, you can just sponsor yourself. I know a couple people who have done just that.
Furthermore, these programs suffer from the same problems that you pointed out about HES, not only with regards to admissions, but also transferrability of coursework (HBS exec-ed courses don't count for degree credit at any other Harvard program) and are often times taught by nontenured lecturers dubbed "professional specialists".
Check it out.
http://www.exed.hbs.edu/apply/ http://www.exed.hbs.edu/apply/geninfo.html http://www.exed.hbs.edu/programs/gm_chart.html
Then check out all the alumni benefits. Basically, you are treated as if you are a full HBS alumni. You don't get a formal degree, but you get everything else. You can join the Harvard club, you can legitimately say that you are a graduate of Harvard Business School, etc.
http://www.exed.hbs.edu/programs/amp/alumni.html
In fact, just searching around the Harvard Clubs in the world, you will see people whose only qualifications are that they are 'graduates' of one of these executive education programs. Take a gander at the Harvard Club of Sarasota, and notice all the exec education graduates (those with AMP, PMD, OPM, and TGMP designations)
http://www.exed.hbs.edu/programs/gm_chart.html
Personally, I would argue that HES ALM degree holders are more 'real' Harvard graduates than are these HBS exec-education graduates. At least the ALM graduates were actually awarded a degree. Yes, it isn't a particularly difficult degree, from Harvard's standpoint. But at least it's a degree. The exec-ed grads didn't even get that. Nevertheless, Harvard still considers them to be alumni.
Personally, I would say that if any program at Harvard really deserved to be called a diploma mill, it wouldn't be HES, it would be HBS exec-education. HBS exec-ed diplomas don't confer degrees, but the definition of 'diploma' pertains to the completion of a course of study, not necessarily a degree-granting course of study. I would argue that HBS Exec-Ed is an easier to way to become a Harvard alumni than is HES. |
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Date: May 17th, 2005 1:35 PM Author: ocher impertinent theater stage factory reset button Not to be argumentative, but have you actually taken an HES class? On what basis do you have to make assertions that the classes are dumbed down?
As I stated above, I took two summer courses taught by highly esteemed Harvard professors and in classes that were 75% Harvard students.
Granted I have not enrolled in a degree program with HES, and probably won't after reading this thread, but I find most of the people who post here are incredibly elitist. The reality is that a lot of people cannot take the traditional route of putting life on hold for 4 years of college. Schools like HES give those who are coming back an opportunity to get their feet wet again before pursuing a program elsewhere or finish degrees that life simply interrupted. It's disturbing that people think if you don't live on campus for 4 years study (nearly entirely) under tenured professors in the time that you DO attend school, your degree is worthless.
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Date: May 17th, 2005 2:57 PM Author: outnumbered drab ticket booth Don't let this thread or this board dictate whether or not you pursue a HES degree. As you said, people here will split hairs and think in far more elitist terms than will most people in the "real world."
As I and others have said, it's a wonderful program for people in its target group, and pursuing a degree or simply auditing classes for your own edification is never a bad thing. Harvard (or any university) is a great resource, both for its traditional students and for other members of the community. What people say her doesn't change that indisputible fact. |
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Date: May 17th, 2005 4:10 PM Author: Tan field wagecucks "people here will split hairs and think in far more elitist terms than will most people in the "real world."'
Most real world emloyers and adcomms worth their salt will know that a HES degree is bullshit. |
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Date: May 17th, 2005 4:55 PM Author: ocher impertinent theater stage factory reset button So an employer like Smith College or Colby College (both of which have profs with ALB's from Harvard followed by advanced degrees from UMass and Brown), and Johns Hopkins -- which had the audacity to admit an HES AA & ALB grad -- must be duds then. It's all clear now. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#2806713) |
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Date: May 17th, 2005 5:15 PM Author: Tan field wagecucks "Smith College or Colby College (both of which have profs with ALB's from Harvard followed by advanced degrees from UMass and Brown), and Johns Hopkins --"
So what? People with degrees from places like wayne state sometimes go on to graduate school and become professors as well. This doesn't make wayne state a good school. The point is, a masters from HES will get you very little that you couldn't get with a much more affordable extension degree from another school in boston. HES's affiliation with harvard makes it no better (in reality or in employers' eyes) than the extension programs at other regional schools like UMASS Boston or Northeastern. The fact that HES exploits the harvard name to justify charging twice the tution rates of these other extension programs makes it an embarassing sham. |
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Date: May 17th, 2005 11:25 PM Author: razzmatazz lodge Well, not to sound repetitive, but the fact of the matter is that all Harvard programs, to some extent, derive at least part of their popularity from the overall Harvard brand-name.
Case in point. Again, I raise the example of HBS's executive education (those AMP and PMD programs that I discussed earlier). I think it's fairly indisputable a lot of people enter those programs just because they want to become official HBS alumni (and hence become eligible for their local HBS club and so forth). And HBS exec-education is extremely expensive relative to exec-education elsewhere. So isn't that really the same thing? Think about it. To get a HES degree, you at least have to pass a bunch of coursework. To become a HBS exec-ed program 'graduate', you just have to pay your money and attend. No exams to complete, no papers to write, no nothing. Which is more egregious?
You also say that maybe it is more affordable to get an extension degree at other schools in Boston. However, I know several people who have done HES coursework, and all of them basically were taking advantage of their employers' generous tuition reimbursement programs. Basically, they all worked for companies that would reimburse them for whatever part-time college coursework they took, as long as they got decent grades. If I worked in Boston for an employer like that, I might go to HES. Why not? It may be overpriced, but since I'm not the one who's paying, what do I care? So maybe you could say that the employer is being stupid. But that's different from saying that the person himself/herself is being stupid. In these cases, looks like that person knows exactly what he/she is doing. I would bet that if you were given full tuition reimbursement for part-time college courses, you might go to HES too. Why wouldn't you? |
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Date: May 17th, 2005 5:18 PM Author: outnumbered drab ticket booth I meant laymen--people in the student's family, people on the street. I would still hesitate to call a HES degree "bullshit." It may not be useful for people who wish to teach college or advance their careers to any great degree, but I do believe that it has its uses, one of which is to help people who wish to continue their education to do so without sacrificing whatever family or career obligations they may have. I do think that people still wish to learn for learning's sake.
Additionally, picture two similarly admissible candidates to a graduate program, one of which performed well in an ALM program, the other of which did not pursue any further education. I do think the ALM graduate has an advantage. This is a rare borderline case, of course, but having the degree wouldn't hurt in this situation. |
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Date: May 17th, 2005 5:21 PM Author: Tan field wagecucks "I meant laymen--people in the student's family, people on the street. "
Laymen would also not be able to tell the difference btw a real $10 bill and a well-made conterfeit. That doesn't make the counterfeit any less phony. |
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Date: May 17th, 2005 5:23 PM Author: outnumbered drab ticket booth I added as an edit a paragraph in re: grad school admissions that clarifies my position. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#2806845) |
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Date: May 17th, 2005 11:38 PM Author: razzmatazz lodge Again, not to sound repetitive, but it's no more phony than those Harvard executive-education programs. Those guys are running around saying that they are alumni of Harvard Business School, and in the eyes of HBS, they are.
I think it was said best before in this thread. Harvard has various programs of varying difficulty. Some programs are easier than others. Yet the fact is, like it or not, Harvard has chosen to recognize all of them as Harvard degrees. We can say that Harvard should not be doing that, but the fact remains that they have the right to do that. |
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Date: May 18th, 2005 9:02 PM Author: trip indian lodge preventive strike And what about you, fool? You say that I'm obsessive about this topic, but what about you?
Joe, I'll say it for the last time. I'm not saying HES is good, I'm not saying HES is bad. HES is what it is. People are going to get degrees from HES whether you like it or not. |
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Date: May 18th, 2005 9:12 PM Author: Tan field wagecucks And the degrees they get won't be harvard degrees. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#2815395) |
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Date: June 5th, 2005 12:08 AM Author: Underhanded amber house Subject: from the horses mouth (or website at least) http://www.extension.harvard.edu/2004-05/libarts/alm/help/#degree
Is the ALM a real Harvard degree?
Yes. ALM graduates are Harvard alumni and alumnae, and the program of study is in every way as challenging as that of graduate degree programs in other Harvard schools. |
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Date: June 23rd, 2005 10:47 PM Author: razzmatazz lodge I'm afraid that ndrkk is right. Like it or not, according to Harvard, HES degrees are considered to be real Harvard degrees. As has been said here before, Harvard gets to make the rules about what sorts of degrees are Harvard degrees. You may not agree with the rules, but it's their rules, not ours. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#3095769) |
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Date: July 7th, 2005 6:00 AM Author: Henna volcanic crater orchestra pit Subject: From the dead to become even more of an ass- Tony Clifton (sic) Hey Tony, Andy or whatever you're real name is take a look and shut up-
http://www.extension.harvard.edu/2004-05/help/default.jsp#rigorous
My "fake diploma" came via taking classes at both Pretend School: Harvard Extension and Real School: Harvard College -my fake diploma from the Extension School somehow kept me at Harvard and into grad school their (The Design School).
Oh by the way Tony- my GPA was higher from the six classes I took at (super hard) Harvard College than the twenty I took at (super easy) Harvard Extension.
Rick Z
*A.L.B. Harvard University Extension School *M.D.E.S. Harvard University Design School *C.R.E. University of California Los Angeles Extension *Award G.B.S. University of California Los Angeles Extension School
-----------------------------------------
One more thing Jack Ass- tell us all about you're education.
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Date: May 17th, 2005 5:22 PM Author: slate school immigrant Harvard Extension is Harvard. It is not Harvard College, Harvard Law School, Harvard Medical School, or the Harvard Graduate School. Yet, it is still Harvard.
People who go to HES can say "I went to Harvard." Colloquially, you may interpret that to mean something else, but the HES students who say that are not incorrect.
It is clear that Harvard College is more "prestigious" than Harvard Extension, and that any respect that a Harvard Extension degree gets is derived from Harvard College (and to a lesser extent its grad programs). However, it is also clear that it is a Harvard degree.
Most universities give out certificates, extension degrees, etc. These degrees/certs are from the universities as long as they say they are. It is up to employers and society in general to "rank" degrees and schools within a university.
Is it irresponsible for HES students to say "I graduated from Harvard" knowing people will misunderstand them? Possibly. However, they are not lying.
At the end of the day, a university identity's is based mainly on undergrad. For all other degrees, people should include the degree in explaining where they attended school. |
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Date: May 17th, 2005 5:24 PM Author: Tan field wagecucks HES students are required to note on their resume that their degree was from the extension program. The HES administration makes this pretty clear in their written policies. In fact, HES students have gotten into serious disciplinary trouble for trying to pass themselves off as "harvard students." (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#2806847) |
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Date: May 17th, 2005 6:00 PM Author: ocher impertinent theater stage factory reset button This is one point I completely agree with. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#2807055) |
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Date: May 17th, 2005 6:18 PM Author: Cerebral Center that's not true (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#2807193) |
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Date: May 17th, 2005 6:20 PM Author: Tan field wagecucks http://www.extension.harvard.edu/2004-05/libarts/alm/help/#resume http://thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=98536 |
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Date: May 17th, 2005 6:35 PM Author: Cerebral Center You're misreading the links. ALM in Extension Studies is the name of one degree. There are five or six other ALMs not in Extension Studies. It's perfectly acceptable to say that you're a Harvard student, you just have to get the degree right and not lie about the division. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#2807330) |
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Date: May 17th, 2005 6:44 PM Author: Tan field wagecucks No, ALL the ALMs are in extension studies, regardless of what you concentrate in. And it's pretty obvious that they want you to explicitly list the "in extension" part of the degree on your resume. Otherwise they wouldn't have mentioned that in the "acceptable" example. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#2807408) |
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Date: May 17th, 2005 6:47 PM Author: Cerebral Center that's not true.
Extension Studies (aka Liberal Arts) ALM: http://www.extension.harvard.edu/alm/default.jsp
Non-Extension Studies ALMs: http://www.extension.harvard.edu/2004-05/prostudy/default.jsp |
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Date: May 17th, 2005 6:54 PM Author: Tan field wagecucks What gives you any reason to believe that the diploma for the "non-liberal arts" degrees do not note that they were taken through the extension school? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#2807476) |
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Date: May 17th, 2005 8:09 PM Author: outnumbered drab ticket booth Perhaps she's not right, but I can see where people would make that mistake. It's not completely clear. On the one hand, they require you to list "Extension Studies" on your resume, claiming that every ALM is an "ALM in Extension Studies," yet elsewhere in their prospectus, they list the degrees as "ALM in XYZ Discipline," strategically omitting the Extension Studies portion of the notation. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#2808075) |
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Date: June 19th, 2005 5:34 AM Author: cerise drunken plaza son of senegal From the Harvard website:
http://www.extension.harvard.edu/2004-05/libarts/alm/help/
Admission Is the ALM a real Harvard degree?
Yes. ALM graduates are Harvard alumni and alumnae, and the program of study is in every way as challenging as that of graduate degree programs in other Harvard schools. Back to top
Does the diploma say Extension School?
Yes, in Latin. The diploma reads UNIVERSITAS HARVARDIANA; then, after the graduate's name comes Magistri in Artibus Liberalibus Studiorum Prolatorum (Master of Liberal Arts in Extension Studies). Back to top
How can I present the ALM on my resume?
Harvard University offers the following degrees in Extension Studies: Associate in Arts Bachelor of Liberal Arts Master of Liberal Arts
It is acceptable, therefore, to list the ALM degree on your resume in the following manner:
Harvard University, Master of Liberal Arts (ALM) in History
Unacceptable: Harvard University, MA in History
-------------------------------------------------------- ***So it appears that Harvard indicates that (on the resume at least) the distinction lies between "ALM" and "MA". Also, notably, I noticed that--at least in the undergrad biology, English, and classics courses--all but a few of the courses are instructed by Harvard University and Harvard Medical School professors (and some of the few that are not are instructed by Amerherst and UMB faculty and so forth). See: http://www.extension.harvard.edu/2004-05/libarts/undergrad/courses/
It seems that Harvard University Extension School--at least according to Harvard University itself--is a unique extension program in which non-traditional students may attend courses taught typically by Harvard faculty on Harvard yard, utilizing Harvard resourses and research opportunities--and also receive a degree (even graduating with the rest of campus)... It certainly seems to be an interesting prospect. I see that some alumni have continued on to Harvard and other notable schools for grad and post-grad work. Is it really true though that a degree from HUES can be looked on dismissively by other universities? For example, given an opportunity to transfer to UC Berkeley to complete undergrad work, would I be better off at Berkeley or Harvard University Extension School. Any thoughts? |
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Date: May 17th, 2005 11:34 PM Author: razzmatazz lodge Actually, I think the links you have provided are fairly ambiguous.
Regarding your first link, it is obviously true that an ALM student cannot claim to be an AM student. That is clearly beyond the pale.
However, it is unclear as to whether you must list the words "in Extension Studies" or not. For example, to say "ALM Harvard" without mention of Extension Studies. It doesn't explicitly allow such positioning, but it doesn't explicitly prohibit it either.
How about this. Instead of wasting time arguing about it, we can clear this up fairly quickly. Let's go email and ask the HES administrators whether it is acceptable to just state "ALM Harvard" without the words Extension Studies. How about that?
Regarding your second link, I am not entirely clear what the whole story is. It is true that HES offers open enrollment courses. On the other hand, in order to earn a degree from HES, you must first advance to degree candidacy. If Mr. Meinert had advanced to ALB degree candidacy, then it seems to me that he would be a legitimately enrolled Harvard undergraduate. Not a Harvard College undergraduate, mind you, but still a Harvard undergraduate. What I think happened is that this guy enrolled in some HES courses, but did not advance to degree candidacy, but still tried to pass himself off as if he were.
However, again, let's not waste time arguing about it. Let's go ask the HES administration whether if you are a fully-enrolled ALB degree candidate, you can legitimately say that you are a legitimate Harvard undergraduate. Sound like a plan? |
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Date: May 20th, 2005 11:54 AM Author: Hairless Bipolar Corn Cake The ignorance of some people is showing, as well as their tendency to make unverified assumptions. HES is cheaper than every other extension program in Boston.
You should not say you're a Harvard undergraduate. That will obviously be misleading, whatever the technical truth. You'll be setting yourself up for embarassment. |
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Date: May 30th, 2005 5:31 AM Author: stimulating clear base Subject: Some Facts Each year, there are about 70-80 students graduated from the ALM program. Go to Harvard U Fact Book: http://vpf-web.harvard.edu/budget/factbook/
Evening program at almost all universities have been around at "top-notch universities" or "ok universities" alike. Because of the Age Discrimination Act of 1975, federal as well as state laws prohibit age discrimination, non-traditional as well as traditional students have been attending the morning (regular) and evening (continuing) programs. At private universities such as Harvard, it's really a bargain to attend the evening programs of which I called “Harvard Outlet”. It makes so much sense to attend Harvard instead of any other private universities or state universities.
Here is a list of some evening/continuing departments:
University of Pennsylvania (College of General Studies offers both undergrad and graduate degrees): http://www.upenn.edu/programs/lifelong.php
Northwestern University (School of Continuing Studies offers undergrad and graduate degrees): http://www.scs.northwestern.edu/
University of Chicago (The Graham School of General Studies): http://grahamschool.uchicago.edu/
Stanford University (Master of Liberal Arts degree from Stanford Continuing Studies): http://continuingstudies.stanford.edu/
Brandeis University (The Rabb School of Summer and Continuing Studies offers under and grad degrees and certificates): http://www.brandeis.edu/departments/
Columbia University (School of General Studies) : http://www.gs.columbia.edu/
New York University (School of Continuing and Professional Studies degrees and certificates):
University of Washington (UW Continuing Education offers evening bachelor's and graduate degree): http://www.outreach.washington.edu/conted/
Southern New Hampshire University (Continuing Education): http://www.snhu.edu/Campus_Locations.html
University of New Hampshire (Continuing Education & Summer Session offers a variety of degree, diplomas, and certificates programs): http://www.learn.unh.edu/pcw/index.php
University of Virgina (School of Continuing & Professional Studies offers under/grad degrees, certificate, diplomas):
Cornell University School of Continuing Education and Summer Sessions: http://www.sce.cornell.edu/
University of Maine http://www.umaine.edu/about/academicprograms/programs/bus.htm
All University of California branches offers only certificates programs through each individual campuses (Berkeley, Los Angeles, Davis, Santa Barbara, Irvine, Riverside, Santa Cruz, San Diego, and maybe Merced).
OVERSEA EVENING PROGRAMS:
Oxford University (It's Department of Continuing Education even offers evening PhD): http://www.conted.ox.ac.uk/department/
Cambridge University (Institute of Continuing Education degrees and diplomas):
In Asia, Tokyo University, National Taiwan University, Tsinghua and Beijing University also offer evening degree programs. I am not really sure about other regions and European countries but I am sure the opportunity exists.
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Date: June 19th, 2005 5:56 AM Author: cerise drunken plaza son of senegal Firstly, I apologize: I accidently inserted my posted within the May 17th postings just now. Apologies for the double posting. Anyhow:
From the Harvard website:
http://www.extension.harvard.edu/2004-05/libarts/alm/help/
Admission
Is the ALM a real Harvard degree?
Yes. ALM graduates are Harvard alumni and alumnae, and the program of study is in every way as challenging as that of graduate degree programs in other Harvard schools.
Back to top
Does the diploma say Extension School?
Yes, in Latin. The diploma reads UNIVERSITAS HARVARDIANA; then, after the graduate's name comes Magistri in Artibus Liberalibus Studiorum Prolatorum (Master of Liberal Arts in Extension Studies).
Back to top
How can I present the ALM on my resume?
Harvard University offers the following degrees in Extension Studies:
Associate in Arts
Bachelor of Liberal Arts
Master of Liberal Arts
It is acceptable, therefore, to list the ALM degree on your resume in the following manner:
Harvard University, Master of Liberal Arts (ALM) in History
Unacceptable: Harvard University, MA in History
--------------------------------------------------------
***So it appears that Harvard indicates that (on the resume at least) the distinction lies between "ALM" and "MA". Also, notably, I noticed that--at least in the undergrad biology, English, and classics courses--all but a few of the courses are instructed by Harvard University and Harvard Medical School professors (and some of the few that are not are instructed by Amerherst and UMB faculty and so forth). See: http://www.extension.harvard.edu/2004-05/libarts/undergrad/courses/
It seems that Harvard University Extension School--at least according to Harvard University itself--is a unique extension program in which non-traditional students may attend courses taught typically by Harvard faculty on Harvard yard, utilizing Harvard resources and opportunities--and also receive a degree (even graduating with the rest of campus)... It certainly seems to be an interesting prospect. I see that some alumni have continued on to Harvard and other notable schools for grad and post-grad work. Or, is what HUES says too good to be true? Is a degree from HUES looked on dismissively by other universities? For example, given an opportunity to transfer to UC Berkeley to complete undergrad work, would I be better off at Berkeley or Harvard University Extension School? Is this a viable route to an Ivy League graduate program? Any thoughts? (In advance, I don't mean to insinuate that HUES and Harvard College are the same.) Thanks.
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Date: June 20th, 2005 9:56 AM Author: outnumbered drab ticket booth If you have the opportunity to transfer to a traditional, full-time undergraduate program at Berkeley, then there is no question that you should do so.
I can't think of any extension degree that can open the same doors as a traditional bachelor's from a top-25 university. While Harvard itself may attempt to portray the ALB and ALM as viable Harvard credentials (which they are, in a sense), there is no dodging the fact that the vast majority of students enrolled in HES classes will never take a degree, and you will rarely have classes with full-time Harvard College or graduate school students.
As I've said before, I have a great deal of respect for students at extension schools who overcome socio-economic and other handicaps to continue their education, but that doesn't mean that a student with an ALB or ALM from HES is afforded the same opportunities as a student graduating from Harvard College or from a traditional graduate program.
Remember, this is a cash cow for Harvard, as they do not offer financial aid to Extension students, so they will try to make the HES option as appealing as possible (Open admissions! Earn a bona-fide HARVARD degree! Join the alumni club!). Beware of this tactic, because while not entirely untrue, the advertising does not divulge the limitations of earning a degree from a continuing education program. |
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Date: June 20th, 2005 12:36 PM Author: Hairless Bipolar Corn Cake I agree with most of what you said but just have to note that HES isn't a cash cow for Harvard. If they wanted it to be a cash cow, they wouldn't make it so cheap.
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Date: June 20th, 2005 12:58 PM Author: Jet Racy Rigor Well, I don't think they'd want to set the tuition too high, otherwise it would dissuade those with lower incomes from enrolling. Cheap tuition is one of the first things I'd want in a continuing education program, anyway!
(And there's no reason why they wouldn't be able to maximize their profits with more enrollees...) |
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Date: June 20th, 2005 2:36 PM Author: Hairless Bipolar Corn Cake Well, maybe, but the tuition is significantly below other extension programs in Boston, such as BU's and Northeastern's. The point is, they have the extension school primarily to provide a service to the community, not to make some extra cash. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#3064714) |
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Date: June 20th, 2005 2:55 PM Author: Jet Racy Rigor I see your point -- and I still see no reason as to why Harvard couldn't accomplish both. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#3064863) |
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Date: June 20th, 2005 1:04 PM Author: outnumbered drab ticket booth HES certainly provides a wonderful service to the community--definitely no argument there. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#3064102) |
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Date: June 23rd, 2005 10:44 PM Author: razzmatazz lodge Actually, they do offer financial aid, but only to admitted degree candidates.
http://www.extension.harvard.edu/2004-05/libarts/undergrad/aid/2005-06/default.jsp
http://www.extension.harvard.edu/2004-05/libarts/alm/aid/2005-06/default.jsp
Also, I think nobody seriously disputes that the ALB/ALM program is not as good as any elite undergraduate or graduate program. On the other hand, they may well be better than many of the other programs offered by a lot of the no-name schools. |
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Date: June 24th, 2005 12:20 AM Author: Thirsty bright mood "a cash cow for Harvard" lol. yeah, they're really strapped for cash, what with their venture capitalists continuously building their endowment and all.
what's the tuition for this program? and what's Harvard's endowment worth now - 22 billion dollars. |
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Date: June 24th, 2005 12:23 PM Author: Hairless Bipolar Corn Cake I think courses without lab are like 600. So if you take 8 courses, ~5k. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#3099915) |
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Date: June 24th, 2005 12:26 PM Author: outnumbered drab ticket booth ...compared to ~$35K for 8 courses in an Arts & Sciences M.A. program. So yes, it is markedly less expensive than other degree programs.
Perhaps "cash cow" was too strong a phrase. Still, the general point stands. |
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Date: June 24th, 2005 5:26 PM Author: razzmatazz lodge Well, when you consider how much it costs to actually run the programs, I don't think that Harvard is making a huge amount of money off HES. I'm sure Harvard isn't losing money, but as far as it making a lot of money? That seems dubious to me.
If any Harvard program is a cash cow, I would argue that it would be the Harvard Business School's Executive Education programs. For example, the Advanced Management Program costs $55k for an 8-week program.
http://www.exed.hbs.edu/programs/amp/curriculum.html
And even if HES is a cash cow, let's keep in mind that many people take HES classes after work, taking advantage of their employers' tuition reimbursement program. So if companies are willing to pay for their employees to earn a degree part-time, it's perfectly logical for Harvard to try to accommodate them. And if it turns out that HES charges a high price (which I don't think they are), well, if the companies decides to reimburse those costs, then who are we to say that they shouldn't? |
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Date: June 24th, 2005 5:39 PM Author: outnumbered drab ticket booth Absolutely, and you're not going to get an argument from me on that, because I think people should take advantage of the opportunity. It's designed for working parents, mid-career professionals, and other unconventional students wishing to either simply broaden their horizons or make themselves a bit more marketable in their fields.
I don't believe, however, if you're 18-years-old and college-bound, that the ALB is really a viable alternative to a traditional B.A. Unless you have some exceptional experience, you're not generally going to find an i-banking or consulting job with an ALB. You're simply not competing with Harvard College graduates (or most B.A./B.S. grads, for that matter) for jobs and slots in graduate schools. With an ALB as your college degree, you will be competitive for an entry-level, $30,000-$40,000/year "bachelor's-preferred" office position. In reality, an ALB is only a small step above an AA in terms of its usefulness and marketability.
The same holds true for the ALM. To put it simply, if I graduated from Harvard with an M.A., I'd start looking at PhD programs. If I graduated with an ALM, I'd start looking at M.A. programs.
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Date: June 26th, 2005 3:29 PM Author: razzmatazz lodge I think we can all agree that the ALB is not comparable to a BA program at a decent school. If you have the opportunity for the latter, you should take it over the HES ALB.
On the other hand, there are a lot of people out there who don't have the opportunity to get a BA at a decent school. Many people only have the opportunity to get into a no-name school. These people probably aren't going to get any Ibanking or consulting job, or for slots in graduate schools anyway. Let's face it, there are hundreds of no-name bachelor's degree-granting institutions out there. I would argue that the HES ALB is probably better than a lot of them. Sure, you're not going to be getting the full traditional Harvard experience through HES. You're only going to be getting a 'quasi-Harvard experience' On the other hand, a quasi-Harvard experience may be better than the full experience at one of the no-name places.
I would also comment on your remark about being competitive for those 30-40k office positions. Well a lot of these people who go to those no-name schools are shooting for nothing more than that. Furthermore, I think we have all seen those jobs that require bachelor's degrees. They don't really care what it is in, or where you got it, they just want you to have a bachelor's degree, period. At one of my old jobs, you could only get hired if you had a bachelor's degree. Most people there had bachelor's degrees from no-name schools, only a few people came from prestigious programs. But they all had bachelor's degrees of one sort or another. For these jobs, why not make yourself eligible through the ALB?
Which is why I have to disagree with you slightly when you say that it's only a small step above an AA. The ALB is a fully accredited bachelor's degree, which means that you are now eligible for all those jobs that require bachelor's degrees. Furthermore, having a bachelor's degree makes you eligible for graduate school. Obviously an ALB is not as valuable as an AB from Harvard College. On the other hand, it makes you eligible for a wide range of opportunities that are not available to AA holders. An ALB holder can actually apply to law school or med school or business school, or even a PhD program. You may not get in, but at least you can apply. An AA holder can't even apply. To me, that's a quite large step up from the AA.
Besides, you could see the ALB as part of a 'brilliant' strategy to obtain a bachelor's degree in an inexpensive manner. Whatever else you might say about the ALB, I think we can all agree that it is dirt-cheap compared to most other Harvard degree programs, and compares extremely favorably to most other night programs. A full semester course load will only cost you a few thousand dollars in tuition. So if you're hard working, you can hold a job during the daytime and then complete your ALB at night. It gets even better if you can get a job for a company that has a generous tuition-reimbursement plan such that they'll pay you to complete your bachelor's. So you may be able to get out not only debt-free, but actually having made money by holding a full-time job during all that time. In any case, you'll be far far better off financially than people who went to a full-time, no-name school and come out laboring under a mountain of student loans. Again, of course, your ALB is clearly not as valuable as an AB from Harvard. But on the other hand, your financial situation is better than it would have been otherwise.
The same sort of thinking holds for the ALM. Again, obviously, the ALM is not as valuable as a Harvard AM is, or an MA from any reputable program. On the other hand, you can get the ALM while continuing to work fulltime, something that you cannot do if you pursue the AM/MA. Hence, it's a tradeoff between the quality of the program and your financial situation.
Which gets to a larger point. Not everybody has the means to just drop what they're doing and go to school fulltime. Some people have families to support. I see in this thread how it has been insinuated that you should ALWAYS choose a fulltime BA program over the ALB, or a fulltime MA program over the ALM. I don't know about that. You have to fit that into the context of people's lives. Not everybody can just quit their job at the drop of a hat to attend a fulltime program. It's not that simple. HES works out well for those people who, for whatever reason, are not able to attend school fulltime. I get the strong whiff of the attitude that "Well, 'If you're not able to attend school fulltime, then you're not worthy of getting a degree". I disagree with that. |
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Date: June 26th, 2005 3:53 PM Author: outnumbered drab ticket booth I think we generally agree. All I'm saying is that, for traditional BA/BS and MA/MS students (college-bound high school graduates with the opportunity to do a full-time bachelor's and graduating college seniors or young college graduates with designs on a master's or PhD), HES isn't really designed for their needs and isn't best suited to accomodate their goals. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#3118371) |
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Date: July 7th, 2005 5:43 AM Author: Henna volcanic crater orchestra pit Subject: Are you nuts? Get a second masters in the same subject. Are you nuts? Get a second masters in the same subject. You all don't get it, look:
http://www.extension.harvard.edu/2004-05/help/default.jsp#rigorous
Is the curriculum as rigorous as it is for Harvard College and graduate students?
Harvard Extension School courses, a number of which are the same as those taught at Harvard College and Harvard graduate schools, are known for the high quality of instruction. Harvard arts and sciences faculty teach at the Extension School alongside instructors from the Boston community who have rich real-world experience. Students are held to the same grading standards as Harvard College students. |
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Date: July 7th, 2005 9:37 AM Author: outnumbered drab ticket booth Everybody on this thread, myself included, has read all of the literature.
An ALM from HES, while a real Harvard degree, should not be mistaken for an M.A. from A&S. The ALM, while helpful, will not open the same doors, because it is not designed for the same type of student. Sorry. |
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Date: July 8th, 2005 2:14 PM Author: razzmatazz lodge We all don't get it? Those are pretty strong words. I've researched the issue rather thoroughly and I'd like to think that I understand the issue fairly well.
The fact is, the Harvard ALM is not as powerful of a credential as the Harvard AM simply because it is easier to get admitted into the ALM program than into the AM program. That's the undeniable truth. Plenty of people who apply to the Harvard AM program could pass the courses and complete the degree, but never get a chance because they are never admitted in the first place. Hence, a simple examination of the rigor of the coursework itself does not by itself give you the whole picture of the rigor of an entire program. A degree program is more than just coursework. It also encompasses the admissions procedure. Hence, you can't just say that programs X and Y are equivalently rigorous just because they have equivalently rigorous coursework. The ALM is less rigorous, overall, because it has a less rigorous admissions procedure.
Having said that, I maintain that having a HES degree is far far better than having nothing at all and is also far better than having a degree from almost any other extension/continuing-education program. Not only that, but I would argue that a HES degree compares favorably to full-time degrees from the vast majority of schools out there, as the vast majority of programs are no-name programs. For example, I would argue that it is probably better to have an ALM from HES than have a MA from UMass-Boston. It's when you compare a HES degree with a full-time degree from a prestigious program is when you start running into difficulties.
I think what's safe to say is that HES is one of the best extension/continuing-education schools around. So if you're looking for an extension degree, HES is an excellent choice. To compare an extension program to a full-time program is akin to trying to compare a law school to a business school. They are just two entirely different schools that serve two entirely different needs. |
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Date: July 7th, 2005 5:19 AM Author: Henna volcanic crater orchestra pit http://www.extension.harvard.edu/2004-05/help/default.jsp#rigorous (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#3212941) |
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Date: June 27th, 2005 7:01 AM Author: razzmatazz lodge I think 2 issues about the ALM ought to be addressed:
First of all, the insinuation that HES is just a 'diploma mill'.
Look, I think we can all agree that the Harvard ALB degree is not as powerful of a credential as a Harvard AB degree, or a BA degree from another highly prestigious program. The ALB caters to an entirely different set of people, namely the nontraditional student. For example, the ALM degree generally caters to those people who want a degree but feel that, for whatever reason, they cannot simply quit their jobs to attend an BA program fulltime. Some people have families they have to support. However, in any case, I don't think anybody seriously disputes that the Harvard ALB degree is not as powerful of a credential as a Harvard BA degree. The same sort of thinking holds for the ALM.
However, there is LONG train-ride from that to the notion that HES is a diploma mill. A VERY long ride. A diploma mill is an unaccredited organization that hands out degrees to anybody who is basically willing to pay for it while doing minimal work. Say what you will about HES, the fact is, it is accredited. And you have to actually complete a rather substantial amount of work in order to get a degree from HES. It's not like you just pay HES and you get a degree. It's one thing to say that an ALB is not equivalent to a Harvard College AB. It's an entirely different thing to say that HES is a diploma mill. Anybody who says the latter goes way too far.
Secondly, I've noticed the insinuation that people who get an ALM are considered to actually be LESS worthy than those without one. Why? I suppose the thinking is that anybody who has an ALM is automatically trying to pretend to be something they're not, and hence that makes them less reliable as a potential employee or whatnot.
I agree that anybody who has an ALM but claims to have an AM is being fraudulent. But if somebody honestly lists their credential as an ALM, I don't see what the problem is. If you're an employer, it's up to you to know what the credentials mean, and if you don't, I would argue it's actually your fault for not doing your homework.
Perhaps another tack that people take is that people think that the ALM somehow shows a lack of academic commitment or intellectual 'worthiness' (however you define that). And obviously I agree that an AM from a highly reputable program probably demonstrates more academic commitment than the ALM. On the other hand, the ALM is far far better than nothing. I don't think I can fathom a situation where having the ALM is worse than not having any master's degree at all. How can it be worse? |
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Date: July 5th, 2005 4:41 AM Author: Gay sanctuary boiling water This whole thing boils down to Harvard enabling people to bend the truth. If Harvard isstrict and enforces penalties against transgressors, then fine. I think Harvard might look the other way and let people misrepresent (*wink, wink*). (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#3194671) |
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Date: July 8th, 2005 1:26 PM Author: razzmatazz lodge Well, I don't know if I can agree with that. Somebody who graduated from HES is in fact a Harvard graduate, so if that person says he is a Harvard graduate, he's not bending anything. If a guy with an ALM from Harvard says he holds a master's degree from Harvard, well, it's the truth. He doesn't hold an AM from Harvard, but he does hold a master's degree from Harvard, like it or not.
Regarding the problem of misrepresentation, I don't see it as being particularly HES-specific. A guy who has an ALM from Harvard who claims to have an AM from Harvard is obviously being fraudulent, but no more so than a guy who has a Master's in Education from Harvard claiming to have an MBA. Or, perhaps more tellingly, a guy who "graduated" from one of those Harvard Business School Executive Education programs claiming to have a Harvard MBA.
Or perhaps the issue is that you think that people may not necessarily lie but won't tell the whole truth about what they have. For example, a guy who says he has a master's degree from Harvard but won't specify whether it is an ALM or an AM, hoping that you will think it is an AM, or a guy who says that he's an HBS graduate, hoping that that will make you think he has a Harvard MBA. However, if you're an employer or a grad-school admissions officer, it's your job to understand the value of the credentials out there. If you don't, that's your own fault. If you don't understand that Harvard offers AM's and ALM's, and you don't understand the difference between the two, then you have nobody to blame for that but yourself. It's your job to ask the right questions and find out what's going on, and if you refuse to do that, well, I don't know what to tell you.
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Date: June 27th, 2005 6:41 PM Author: razzmatazz lodge So I've spent some time carefully reviewing the posts of the detractors of HES, and I've been thinking about HES, the notion of continuing education and extension-schools in general. From what I can surmise, I can divide the HES detractors into 3 camps:
Camp #1 - Those people who just don't like ANY continuing education or extended education or any sort.
It seems to me that there are certain people who just don't like the idea of continuing education of any sort. The attitude seems to be that no schools should ever cater to the nontraditional student, and indeed that there shouldn't even be such a thing as a nontraditional student. The thinking seems to be that if you do not have the means or are otherwise unwilling to unable to attend a school fulltime in the traditional sense, then you don't deserve to get a degree from ANY school, and hence you should always be relegated to the ranks of the non-graduates. So if you need to hold a full-time job but still want a college degree, that's too bad for you. I also get the strong sense that this is an attitude borne of jealousy and retribution - basically, since those people were not allowed to hold full-time jobs while they were getting their degrees, they want to make sure that nobody else is allowed to do it either.
Camp #2 - Those people who don't mind extension or continuing education programs that grant degrees, just so long as it is not Harvard that does it.
This generally encapsulates into my discussion of Camp #1. It is basically left unsaid as to why exactly Harvard shouldn't be running a continuing education/extension program. And to those belonging to camp #2, I wonder why exactly shouldn't Harvard provide degree programs to the nontraditional student? Just because Harvard has a prestigious brand-name, that automatically means that nontraditional students automatically do not deserve any chance at a Harvard degree? Where does it say that highly prestigious schools must only cater to the traditional school, and why? I would like to ask these people why is it that they feel that Harvard is not allowed to ever provide programs to the nontraditional student.
#3 - Those people who have specific programs with the way that HES is run.
Now obviously, HES isn't perfect. I never said it was. On the other hand, I keep seeing people knocking the program by calling it the 'worst' program at Harvard, or that HES degrees are not (colloquially speaking) 'real' Harvard degrees, or that HES students are not 'real' Harvard students, that HES is just a diploma mill, that HES degrees are worthless, etc. etc.
It is obviously true that a Harvard ALB cannot compare to a Harvard AB, or that a Harvard ALM cannot compare to a Harvard AM. But that's a far far cry from saying that HES degrees are worthless or that HES is a diploma mill. The fact of the matter is that HES caters to the nontraditional student in a way that Harvard College or Harvard GSAS do not. It is therefore not surprising that the degrees from HES are not comparable to the degrees from Harvard College or GSAS, just like the degrees from Harvard Business School are not comparable to the degrees from Harvard Medical School or any other Harvard institution. Each degree serves a different audience for difference purposes. I am not going to get surgery from a Harvard MBA, just like I wouldn't ask a Harvard MD for management consulting advice. Each Harvard program caters to a different audience and serves a difference purpose, which is why a Harvard AM and a Harvard ALM are built for 2 different audiences.
So, really, all this talk about how HES is bad and how HES is not a 'real' Harvard program has to be put in proper context. Keep in mind that HES is a continuing studies/extension program, and should be judged against other continuing studies and extension programs. For those who think that HES is such a terrible program, go ahead and name a single continuing studies/extension program at any university that is considered to be the most prestigious program at that university. Go ahead, do it. Can't do it, can you?
Or think of it this way. Name another continuing studies program/extension program that is demonstrably better than HES. Again, can't do it, can you? Let's face it. HES is probably one of the best if not the best continuing studies/extension programs in the country. I'd far far prefer to get a degree from HES than to get a degree from an extension program at a no-name school. In fact, I would argue that HES is so good that an ALM from Harvard may well be better than an MA at a no-name school. How many other extension/continuing-education schools can that be said about?
However, the point is that you should only compare programs on an apples-to-apples basis. You can't really go around judging law schools vs. nursing schools. Continuing education schools can only be fairly judged when matched against other continuing education schools. And the fact is, HES is a very very good continuing education school. On the whole, is it as good as GSAS or Harvard College? Of course not. But for an continuing education school, it is one of the best.
So I would ask the detractors of HES what their real beef with the program is. Do they just not like any extension program at all, do they not like the fact that Harvard is running an extension program (regardless of how they run it), or is it that they just have specific problems with HES? I think many would fall in the last category, yet I think I have addressed their concerns. HES is clearly not perfect but it is also one of the best continuing education programs in the country. |
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Date: November 18th, 2005 2:34 AM Author: Talented Cobalt Useless Brakes Subject: Harvard Extension School I stumbled upon this website while googling to find the form to fill out for my graduation confirmation at the Harvard Extension School. :-)
Here are a few facts:
- I am an ALM in IT candidate for the 2006 class of Harvard Extension School
- It took me two years to get accepted into the ALM program, because Harvard Extension School has a very strict graduate program admissions policy. It is not true that HES has completely "open admission." To clarify, anyone can take courses at HES, but only a limited number of the best students who complete specified courses with a 3.0+ GPA get admitted to HES ALM programs.
- Even after one is admitted to an ALM graduate program, it does not guarantee a degree from HES.
- Fewer than 150 students receive the ALM degree every year.
- HES has a 3.0 GPA admisssion policy (all students must take 3 required graduate-level courses with a 3.0+ average before applying)
- Undergraduate transcript, 2 essays, and application are required in order to apply to the ALM program.
- GRE/GMAT is not required, although if you have the scores, HES wants to see that in your application for ALM degree candidacy.
- I don't consider myself a "Harvard wannabe" nor do I consider it my alma mater. (I received my B.A. from Berkeley...Go Bears!).
- HES courses are very rigorous. The assignments given to us are often the same assignments (in fact, some of the midterm exams are the same) given to Harvard College students.
- I spend about 40 hours a week on my coursework assignments and projects.
- A Master's Thesis is required in order to graduate from all ALM program at HES.
- ALM degree candidates from HES are allowed to access any Harvard library, borrow books, and use its computer facility for research.
- The HES computing facility is the nicest, most expensive computing facility I have ever seen. It's nicer than the one given to Harvard College students. HES is a school full of resources and wealth.
- Harvard Extension School students are often more motivated than Harvard College students. That is because we, not our parents, pay for our tuition.
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Date: December 5th, 2005 7:34 PM Author: adventurous tanning salon Subject: To attend or not to attend.... It's taken me about 2 hours to read this whole thread.
Basically, im considering attending HES for my ALB, and looking to transfer to an Ivy league Grad school after i do well. :)
After reading all of this, im at ends. My big question, and i hate to raise this topic back up for all of you, but my question is: Would this degree be better than a traditional bachelor's at a college like University of Colorado, or Metropolitan State College of Denver.
To me, it feels like it's not even close. But after people calling HES a "diploma mill", what kind of trouble will i have the rest of my life saying i attended there?
Constructive input, and less personal attacking could have shortened the elapsed time it took me to actually gain worthy information to aid my decision. For that, im irritated with a lot of you already.
So, please, just help out my question? And quit fighting with each other? |
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Date: December 5th, 2005 8:35 PM Author: Histrionic umber pistol Subject: This is very confusing... inanevoyage;
For one thing, it is not a "useless" liberal arts degree. Your course requirments are something like 36 units of classes that are 'required' courses. It is like this with most Bachelors degrees.
Then you have something like 96 units that can be taken in you major. For example your degree will be an ALB-Economics, or ALB-History or ALB-English. ALB is simply a way for Harvard to designate the degree as an Extension school degree rather then a Harvard College degree.
But think about it; you will have 40 units in your major that are required to be taken at the Undergraduate level. Then if you choose to you can take another 56 Units of GRADUATE LEVEL CLASSES TAUGHT BY HARVARD PROFFESORS! If you are really clever, you can take 24 of your 40 undergraduate units at Harvard College as a special student. And if you are wise you will take your major's units in classes that are taught only by the best proffesors from non Harvard schools such as MIT.
You are preparing yourself for life, and how well you perform on the job is partly based on the training you get from a college. Why not get that training at the #1 school in the world?
Above all you have to ask yourself this. Am I trying to get the best education possible or am I more concerned with how the degree is viewed by employers? If you want to better education, you should go to Harvard. (extension)
My doctor went to Dartmouth, which is Ivy League, and the number 1 Business School worldwide. We talked about the Harvard Extension program, and he said "ultimately it is a Harvard degree, and a lot of people are going to conspire against you because of that fact". He went on to say he has experienced the same thing with his degree from Dartmouth.
If you are over the age of 22, you shouldn't even consider going to Colorado or State college of Denver. Those schools are not even comparable to Harvard Extension.
On top of that the review of people who went to MIT, Harvard and any other top school you can think of who attended Harvard Extension said it was as hard as anything they ever took at thier regular day schools.
The bottom line is that you will be taught by Harvard proffesors. You can enroll for a year at Harvard College. You will be in classes with Harvard Graduate students.
Of the 14,000 people who are taking classes at Harvard Extension, only 120 per year will ever get the ALB, for one reason or another. Basically the odds are you will not be able to ever get the degree academically. So it could just be a huge waste of time for you.
It is going to cost you a lot of money, because you are not living on campus, and your other costs of living such as heating alone could cost you easily 200$ per month. Food is also very expensive in Boston. It is hard to spend less then 400$ a month on groceries. Rent is among the most expensive in the nation. It is going to be hard to spend less then 1200$ a month rent in the Boston area.
This is partly why Harvard Extension is cheaper then Penn U general studies.
If money is no issue for you, I would say your best bet would be to attend Penn. U general studies. You get EXACTLY the same degree as the other Penn. U Bachelors graduates. But you pay 4,000$ a course.
If you were paying 4,000$ a class for Harvard Extension, a lot of people wouldn't be saying anything bad about it.
Above all, if your SAT score is under 1400, you are going to probably have a very hard time getting the degree from Harvard Extension. Let alone being accepted into the program.
People talk about how they could get through Harvard College, but they just couldn't get accepted into Harvard, otherwise they could have made it. That is total BS.
If you want to go to graduate school and you do well at Harvard Extension you will look at hell of a lot more impressive then if you did well at any of the Colorado schools you mentioned.
Nobody really says anything bad about Penn U. general studies degree, because they charge the full 4,000$ a class.
I personally would do Penn U., if I was dependant on a degree for a job. But my situation is that I am going to Harvard Extension because I am studying economics, which I believe it will help make me a better businessman. I own an Investment Company, and there is nothing like Harvard. The place is utterly electrifying.
My advice; Got to Harvard Extension. But you better have some serious money, because it is going to end up costing you at least 150,000$, and that is if you get it done in 4 years. Plus you have to consider lost wages. If you can't do this full time, I do not recommend you trying.
Also when you go in for that first job interview, you can say ultimately you have a Harvard Degree. How you carry youself, and how you pass that degree off will determine how it is viewed by the employer.
(there are people who work for NASA that have ALB degrees, people who have written books who have only an ALB degree (books that were published) People who are proffesors at MIT and Harvard who's first degree was an ALB.
Just don't take it lightly. Odds are that you will need to study 40 hours per week in order to pass your classes. (if you are taking 12 units) |
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Date: December 6th, 2005 12:57 AM Author: adventurous tanning salon Subject: Thank you. Thank you for your information!
I am no way taking this lightly. It's the fact of the comparisons to other ivy league schools that lead you in to believing it might not be as accredited as they pass themselves off to be, even being a Harvard University school.
But that was indeed my big question. In my mind, i know that getting taught by several Harvard University professors is likely much better than anything i can get from University of Colorado or other state universities.
Also, i'll be studying Computer Science. I already have a friend in Boston attending Tufts, so i have a place to stay and he can get me a job as well until i get on my feet.
I want to go there to learn, more than anything. But i cant argue the fact that it might be rather monotonous to hear "you didnt REALLY go to Harvard" the rest of my life. I do feel like that would go away once i used my grad school for my #1 credential.
In the end, you've gained my trust back into the school and it really looks more than ever like what it comes acrossed to be. A working persons way to get a Harvard education. |
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Date: December 6th, 2005 1:42 AM Author: Histrionic umber pistol First of all; for what it is worth I gave up on USC (ranked #30) for Harvard Extension.
Lets look at the reality of our situation. We both know that we couldn't get into Harvard College. Yet we know that we are going to be extremely stimulated by attending Harvard, and we want to obtain AS MUCH KNOWLEDGE AS POSSIBLE. And that is why we are doing this. But think about how much attending Harvard is going to motivate you, and how much it will help prepare you for, and how much it will increase your chances of getting into a top graduate school!!! When you add this up, how much motivation it will give you every single day, over a 4 year period, you are going to be in a much better position to get into a Graduate degree program. I really don't think your odds would be very good to get into an Ivy league graduate school from a school like University of Colorado or Denver State college.
Its kind of like if you know you are going to a piece of shit school how much motivation are you going to have?
But you have to consider how much more motivated you are going to be walking the same paths that some of the greatest men in American history walked years ago. Knowing that people you are walking by who are current students may very well end up President. Many of them will run Fortune 500 companies, or other major US companies. Many of them will start companies that will some day become HUGE. Part of the reason I am going there is for the Venture Capital opportunities with some of these young people who are brilliant, everywere you turn. People who may not otherwise get into forming a business, I may be able to either steer them in the direction of what is possible. Imagine if you had just a 5% interest in Microsoft and were business partners with Bill Gates, yet you only put up a small amount of money, and are now entitled to 5% of Microsofts profits, all the while you are doing no work and were simply a Limited liability partner. The possibilities are mind numbing.
I think when all is said and done you will be so grateful for the amount, and quality of education you will recieve compared to one of those other schools that you won't care what anyone says. And in the work place, you are going to see a night and day difference between the Harvard educated you, and the Denver State College educated you.
(I don't mean any offense in saying that)
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Date: December 6th, 2005 5:57 AM Author: adventurous tanning salon Subject: exciting! No offense taken in that last remark; this is precisely my point!
Also in regards to what you said before, about Special Student status, i'd love to gain the requirements to do such a thing obviously. I cant forget how bad it's going to hurt my wallet though! One of the best deals about the Extension School is the tuition to me; it's my way in. I come from a single parent low-income family, and i'll be doing(all) of the financial duties.
For the sake of reference from Harvard faculty, i'd like to get in at least a years worth, but we'll honestly see how that goes.
I'm visiting Boston in January sometime anyways, to go stay with my best friend. Perhaps i'll schedule it around a time that would let me go to one of the information sessions they have.
One last thing.. You're right about not being able to get into an Ivy-grad from like CU Boulder. That single fact can and will change the rest of my life, so i dont take it lightly.
Anyways, thanks for going more in depth on your last post than what you did initially. I'm feeling really upbeat about the plan. |
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Date: December 6th, 2005 9:52 PM Author: big violet hell police squad This misinformation being tossed around here is astounding.
For starters, I know a history PhD student at Columbia who graduated from Montana State University, and a Columbia SIPA student who graduated from the University of Montana with a major in dance. If you'd like, I can name plenty more Ivy League graduate students who attended little-known or little-respected state schools. |
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Date: December 9th, 2005 10:40 AM Author: Histrionic umber pistol I want to add this point to the argument. Harvard College has so much faith in its Extension program that it allowed a student who has a mere Bachelor's degree from Harvard Extension 2004 to actually teach at HARVARD COLLEGE. (not extension)
Rajiv Shankar 2004 ALB (NOT ALM) Graduate is teaching at Harvard college. He doesn't even have a Master's degree yet he is teaching!
You people are clearly out of touch with reality. Harvard ALM and ALB are possibly the hardest degrees to attain in the entire Harvard University program. Why? Because of the 13,000 students, only around 270 per year get the ALB and the ALM.
Harvard Extension is literally part of the #1 school in America. (or the world?) It is not any different then Harvard College. Or any other Harvard School in terms of difficulty to complete the degree. It is actually the VERY MOST DIFFICULT DEGREE TO OBTAIN FROM HARVARD UNIVERSITY. (yes that includes Harvard College) |
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Date: December 23rd, 2005 6:34 AM Author: razzmatazz lodge Well, no, I don't think it's the hardest degree to attain at Harvard University. Not by a long shot. Some of the Harvard PhD's are FAR FAR harder to get.
Look, the fact is, out of the 13,000 HES students most have no intention of ever getting a degree from HES. They are just there to take a few classes out of general interest and continuing education. Or they work in the Boston area and their employer is paying for them to train by taking some classes (i.e. the computer science classes) to improve their work skills, and they figure that if their employer is paying anyway for the classes, they might as well take them at HES. Or they are high school students in the Boston area who are taking HES courses to make themselves look better on their college apps. Or they are employees at Harvard (or possibly at MIT) who get to take classes at Harvard at highly subsidzed rates (probably free) , and HES is the apparatus that offers classes at night which makes it highly convenient for them.
Look, I understand what you're saying. I agree that HES courses are equivalent in difficulty to HC courses. But the 13,000 number is highly misleading. What you really should be using is the number of HES students who are honestly and genuinely trying to get HES degrees. Unfortunately, there is no way to really know that number, but it is clearly lower than 13,000.
So yes, I agree with you that HES courses are as difficult as their equivalent HC courses. However, when you say that HES is the most difficult degree program in all of Harvard, I'm afraid you go too far. |
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Date: December 25th, 2005 6:31 AM Author: fear-inspiring gas station fat ankles i'm sorry:
Harvard College >>>>>>>>>>> HES
What is the acceptance rate for HES?
When Harvard alums ask you what House you were in, what will you do? Lie? |
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Date: December 25th, 2005 10:59 AM Author: big violet hell police squad Unfortunately, Jackson is a troll and flame artist. Don't take his posts seriously. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#4660997) |
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Date: December 26th, 2005 3:57 PM Author: fear-inspiring gas station fat ankles . (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#4667321) |
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Date: March 1st, 2006 12:14 PM Author: big violet hell police squad Hehe...bump. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=125783&forum_id=3#5216094) |
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Date: March 3rd, 2006 6:07 PM Author: Histrionic umber pistol Yes, and he is also extremely well hung...or at least that is what I heard Pamela Anderson say about Jackson.
Then he had sex with like all 3 of the Dahm Triplets at once.
Jackson is so fucking rad. |