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"Dynamic Student Loan Repayment Act" expands PAYE to 30 years
Poast new message in this thread
Date: July 23rd, 2014 12:37 PM Author: Doobsian lilac police squad http://abovethelaw.com/2014/07/bipartisan-plan-to-screw-poor-student-borrowers-is-actually-kind-of-good/
Senators Marco Rubio and Mark Warner introduced a bipartisan student loan bill yesterday aimed at reducing default rates. The bill, called the “Dynamic Student Loan Repayment Act,” would limit all student loan repayment to 10% of discretionary income.
The plan is terrible for the poorest students. Currently, the federal income-based repayment program, called Pay as You Earn or PAYE, also requires 10% of discretionary income, but it calculates “discretionary” at 150% of the poverty line. The Rubio/Warner plan kicks in at $10,000… which is a lot less than 150% of the poverty line.
Also under PAYE, if you have more than $57,500 of debt after 20 years of repayment, PAYE forgives your loan. Under Dynamic Repayment, that goal post is moved to 30 years out. I guess the upside is that under Dynamic Repayment, there’s a better chance that you’ll die still owing money.
Again, if you are poor, this new plan isn’t great. But since when do Republicans or even Democrats care about the truly poor? |
Date: July 23rd, 2014 12:40 PM Author: Buck-toothed crimson whorehouse jfc. a fixed threshold of $10k is below 150% of poverty level now, imagine how horrible it will be after 20 years of inflation eats away at it. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2626049&forum_id=2#25987244) |
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Date: July 23rd, 2014 12:40 PM Author: Odious tan mexican field LJL (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2626049&forum_id=2#25987245) |
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Date: July 23rd, 2014 12:42 PM Author: Slimy masturbator senate that's alright. i'm locked in to PAYE 20-10 already (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2626049&forum_id=2#25987247) |
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Date: July 23rd, 2014 1:17 PM Author: Doobsian lilac police squad Looks to include all borrowers, no grandfather provision --
http://www.scribd.com/doc/234127671/Dynamic-Repayment-Act |
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Date: July 23rd, 2014 1:18 PM Author: Slimy masturbator senate lol i'm not reading that but i'm sure it's flame anyway (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2626049&forum_id=2#25987401) |
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Date: July 23rd, 2014 4:18 PM Author: Heady Dragon Corner Right bro... Too bad dept of edu has already confirmed that those currently enrolled in PAYE are under some form of contract which the government can't unilaterally change.
Nice flame tho. |
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Date: July 23rd, 2014 4:33 PM Author: cruel-hearted psychic lol@this. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2626049&forum_id=2#25988564) |
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Date: July 23rd, 2014 4:54 PM Author: Doobsian lilac police squad After Congress caps all PAYE forgiveness at $57.5K,
"But, but, the Dept of Edu webpage FAQ written by some intern," he lisped.
Page Not Found |
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Date: July 23rd, 2014 4:56 PM Author: Heady Dragon Corner wasn't dept of edu FAQ bro. There's some website dedicated to student loan shit and the guy who runs the website interview several people with the dept of edu regarding this issue when obama first published his proposed student loan reform. They confirmed that those already enrolled in PAYE are locked in. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2626049&forum_id=2#25988730) |
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Date: July 23rd, 2014 4:58 PM Author: Doobsian lilac police squad I love all these vague hearsay assertions from people with no relevant authority. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2626049&forum_id=2#25988740) |
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Date: July 23rd, 2014 4:59 PM Author: cheese-eating abode They can't confirm anything. Most of the Department can't even explain the various repayment programs and who they apply to. And no one has linked to any language in the loan documents that treats these repayment plans as contractual obligations. Anything can change. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2626049&forum_id=2#25988744) |
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Date: July 23rd, 2014 5:05 PM Author: charismatic cerise state IBR, at least, is contained in the PLUS MPN
http://www.direct.ed.gov/pubs/plusmpn.pdf
Unless otherwise restricted by loan type, you must repay all of your Direct Loans under the same repayment plan. You may choose one of the following repayment plans to repay your Direct PLUS Loan:
[List of repayment plans]
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Date: July 23rd, 2014 5:25 PM Author: contagious hospital titcr (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2626049&forum_id=2#25988857) |
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Date: July 23rd, 2014 5:31 PM Author: Doobsian lilac police squad (Pace law at sticker grad) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2626049&forum_id=2#25988888) |
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Date: July 23rd, 2014 5:02 PM Author: cruel-hearted psychic haha im going to personally enjoy watching you get so fucking pwned (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2626049&forum_id=2#25988754) |
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Date: July 23rd, 2014 5:05 PM Author: Heady Dragon Corner stern but fair (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2626049&forum_id=2#25988766) |
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Date: July 24th, 2014 10:39 AM Author: Doobsian lilac police squad (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2626049&forum_id=2#25992968) |
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Date: July 23rd, 2014 12:49 PM Author: exhilarant wrinkle theater stage When does this bullshit kick in, assuming it passes? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2626049&forum_id=2#25987273) |
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Date: July 23rd, 2014 12:54 PM Author: provocative swollen chad July 1, 2015
It won't pass. |
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Date: July 23rd, 2014 1:14 PM Author: Doobsian lilac police squad Bipartisan support from all sides. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2626049&forum_id=2#25987378) |
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Date: July 23rd, 2014 1:19 PM Author: plum crackhouse preventive strike 3L here. Can I still get the 20 year one? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2626049&forum_id=2#25987405) |
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Date: July 23rd, 2014 4:20 PM Author: Heady Dragon Corner haven't read this particular one, but the one in the bama proposal applied to new borrowers, so those who haven't taken out any loans yet. Basically just fucks everyone under the age of 25 even harder. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2626049&forum_id=2#25988469) |
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Date: July 23rd, 2014 1:01 PM Author: charismatic cerise state better cop dat PAYE contract now (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2626049&forum_id=2#25987321) |
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Date: July 23rd, 2014 1:11 PM Author: Cowardly striped hyena spot This is so awesome! Screw all the debtor bums. Pay your loans deadbeats. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2626049&forum_id=2#25987360) |
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Date: July 23rd, 2014 1:18 PM Author: Useless Fanboi (Boomer who paid for college working part-time at mcdonalds) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2626049&forum_id=2#25987396) |
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Date: July 23rd, 2014 1:37 PM Author: Cowardly striped hyena spot There are still tons of cheap in-state options if you're not a narcissistic prestige whore. In-state tuition in most states is under 10k a year for undergrad. Why should taxpayers pay for your $50k/yr LAC degree and $50k/yr JD?
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Date: July 23rd, 2014 2:09 PM Author: contagious hospital no one lives in those states. more people live in L.A. County alone than in all of the blue states in this map:
http://i.imgur.com/zkt2BLq.jpg
in-state tuition in California is something like $20K per year. |
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Date: July 23rd, 2014 2:23 PM Author: Cowardly striped hyena spot LA county has 10 million people, which is the same as Michigan, just one of the states on your map. NJ has 9 million, WI has 5 million, MD has 5 million, VA has 8 million. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2626049&forum_id=2#25987802) |
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Date: July 23rd, 2014 2:25 PM Author: contagious hospital kids can't choose what state their parents live. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2626049&forum_id=2#25987809) |
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Date: July 23rd, 2014 2:27 PM Author: Cowardly striped hyena spot Move to a new state at 18 for one year. Get a job. Cop in-state tuition the next year. Done. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2626049&forum_id=2#25987818) |
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Date: July 23rd, 2014 4:52 PM Author: erotic brilliant hairy legs states with good college systems have bumped this up to like 4 years before you can cop instate. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2626049&forum_id=2#25988717) |
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Date: July 23rd, 2014 1:19 PM Author: comical disturbing stock car site Odd act. Very dynamic. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2626049&forum_id=2#25987408) |
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Date: July 23rd, 2014 1:28 PM Author: exhilarant wrinkle theater stage So what happens to the fuckers who are already signed up for PAYE? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2626049&forum_id=2#25987468) |
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Date: July 23rd, 2014 1:34 PM Author: charismatic cerise state nothing (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2626049&forum_id=2#25987508) |
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Date: July 23rd, 2014 1:36 PM Author: Doobsian lilac police squad This applies retroactive from July 1, 2015 (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2626049&forum_id=2#25987528) |
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Date: July 23rd, 2014 4:23 PM Author: Heady Dragon Corner the flame is strong with you (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2626049&forum_id=2#25988493) |
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Date: July 23rd, 2014 4:22 PM Author: Heady Dragon Corner Nothing breh, you're in contract with lender (government) which locks in the terms of PAYE. This has already been covered repeatedly when Bama set forth his new paye proposal which was just a slightly better version of this and all us current PAYE bros were STRESSING that it might apply retroactively.
Dept of Edu confirmed that those enrolled in PAYE are actually some form of contract which cannot be retroactively changed by gov't or any other party and we're locked into our current terms.
PSLF on the other hand... LJL |
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Date: July 23rd, 2014 4:43 PM Author: Doobsian lilac police squad Lol at being locked in to having the tax payers eat hundreds of thousands of dollars of your debt. GL with that. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2626049&forum_id=2#25988649) |
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Date: July 23rd, 2014 1:58 PM Author: Cracking Business Firm Nowag Odds of this passing? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2626049&forum_id=2#25987676) |
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Date: July 23rd, 2014 1:59 PM Author: Odious tan mexican field 0% (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2626049&forum_id=2#25987684) |
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Date: July 23rd, 2014 2:03 PM Author: Cracking Business Firm Nowag Based on?
Obamas expansion of PAYE seems more generous to borrowers. |
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Date: July 23rd, 2014 2:05 PM Author: Odious tan mexican field correct (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2626049&forum_id=2#25987718) |
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Date: July 23rd, 2014 2:07 PM Author: Cracking Business Firm Nowag Why do you think it won't pass though? Because Rubio is a co-sponsor? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2626049&forum_id=2#25987728) |
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Date: July 23rd, 2014 4:33 PM Author: onyx godawful sweet tailpipe Because there's something that already does the same thing except is more favorable to students (and schools)? So why would Dems support this? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2626049&forum_id=2#25988565) |
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Date: July 23rd, 2014 2:07 PM Author: kink-friendly location He already signed the exec order. This would have to go through Congress and be signed into law, and "bipartisan" or not, it may very well fail or be torpedoed for whatever reason. Obama would basically give a big fuck-you to all of the borrowers who jumped into IBR on the premise that PAYE as it stood was going to be expanded, if he signed it.
Could pass, this issue has always been so off the radar I am not sure they'd all of a sudden decide they need to save a few bucks by making it 30 years to the chagrin of all the people the bill is designed to "help". |
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Date: July 23rd, 2014 2:08 PM Author: pale know-it-all den What exec order? I'm an IBR bro just trying to get some hope of PAYE. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2626049&forum_id=2#25987736) |
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Date: July 23rd, 2014 2:11 PM Author: Cracking Business Firm Nowag Bro get educated:
Everyone will be entitled to PAYE in 2015. |
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Date: July 23rd, 2014 2:12 PM Author: pale know-it-all den Sweet tyft (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2626049&forum_id=2#25987757) |
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Date: July 23rd, 2014 2:09 PM Author: Cracking Business Firm Nowag I'm currently (barely) on IBR waiting for PAYE expansion to come into effect. I want the PSLF from it
I want that PAYE (Obama's version). |
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Date: July 23rd, 2014 2:11 PM Author: Odious tan mexican field barely how?
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Date: July 23rd, 2014 2:14 PM Author: Cracking Business Firm Nowag my payments under IBR (15% version) are pretty close to my regular payment amount.
PAYE would bring payments down a third (10% version).
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Date: July 23rd, 2014 2:08 PM Author: Doobsian lilac police squad 80%. This is a more realistic version of PAYE. You cannot have people making under $50K paying almost nothing on their loans forever. And you can't have people getting $100K+ in forgiveness. This bill just ensures that nobody will be getting TOO GOOD of a deal with PAYE. Includes retroactive also. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2626049&forum_id=2#25987737) |
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Date: July 23rd, 2014 2:12 PM Author: Cracking Business Firm Nowag yeah, if it does passes i'll have to get on it, buckle down and pay my loans off asap.
no pslf provision in there so i'd be kinda fucked that way. I have 3 1/2 years left to get forgiveness |
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Date: July 23rd, 2014 2:13 PM Author: Doobsian lilac police squad One way or another, all forgiveness will be capped at $57.5K. Nobody is ever getting more than that amount forgiven. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2626049&forum_id=2#25987762) |
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Date: July 23rd, 2014 2:15 PM Author: Cracking Business Firm Nowag that's all I need really. I just don't want to wait 30 years to be able to get it when I could get it in 3 1/2. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2626049&forum_id=2#25987767) |
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Date: July 23rd, 2014 2:17 PM Author: Slimy masturbator senate lol (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2626049&forum_id=2#25987777) |
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Date: July 23rd, 2014 2:18 PM Author: contagious hospital what do you tell people like me that owe $250K or more? you can't deny bankruptcy and also provide no other out. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2626049&forum_id=2#25987782) |
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Date: July 23rd, 2014 2:25 PM Author: Cracking Business Firm Nowag do you have biglaw?
I guess my question is how you could rack up so much debt for law school? |
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Date: July 23rd, 2014 2:27 PM Author: contagious hospital $20K of that is undergrad, and about $20K is interest. law school was about $210K total. $20K living expenses + $40K tuition + interest accumulated during school. law school costs even more than that now, nearly $300K by most school's own estimates. no biglaw. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2626049&forum_id=2#25987821) |
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Date: July 23rd, 2014 5:41 PM Author: Glittery Red Garrison HAHAURFUKD (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2626049&forum_id=2#25988930) |
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Date: July 23rd, 2014 2:25 PM Author: charismatic cerise state he's flaming (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2626049&forum_id=2#25987810) |
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Date: July 23rd, 2014 2:37 PM Author: Doobsian lilac police squad They'll just keep extending it out. You'll be fine, just don't expect to get $300K written off. PAYE was never designed for that, and it won't ever happen. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2626049&forum_id=2#25987861) |
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Date: July 23rd, 2014 2:39 PM Author: cruel-hearted psychic i think this is a likely prediction. they wont remove the forgiveness, theyll just keep lengthening the amount of time it takes (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2626049&forum_id=2#25987875) |
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Date: July 23rd, 2014 2:52 PM Author: disrespectful passionate principal's office PAYE was designed exactly for that, and many people signed up for high-interest government loans, rather than lower-interest private loans specifically because of the protection PAYE offers. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2626049&forum_id=2#25987935) |
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Date: July 23rd, 2014 2:58 PM Author: Doobsian lilac police squad The typical PAYE target is an underpaid public interest type with $40K debt and $45K in loans. Not some ridiculous $300K debt nonsense. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2626049&forum_id=2#25987970) |
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Date: July 23rd, 2014 3:18 PM Author: disrespectful passionate principal's office There is no such thing as a "PAYE target". Plenty of lawyers, grad students, etc., took out federal loans specifically because this repayment option existed. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2626049&forum_id=2#25988077) |
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Date: July 23rd, 2014 4:26 PM Author: Heady Dragon Corner Oh HAI Me.
This guy is flaming anyway, they can't change the terms of those of us already enrolled in PAYE since contract law governs. |
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Date: July 23rd, 2014 4:34 PM Author: cruel-hearted psychic show a contract with names/identifying info redacted that has PAYE. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2626049&forum_id=2#25988575) |
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Date: July 23rd, 2014 4:43 PM Author: Heady Dragon Corner no way I'm going through that much work, but if you look up the previous PAYE threads you should find the one discussing Obama's budget proposal where this shit was discussed at length. Dept of Edu has also confirmed that they could not change the terms of those currently enrolled in PAYE. I know there's a website that was asking these questions to dept of edu and publishing their responses but I'm also not gonna do that work for you bro.
I believe PAYE was actually explicitly mentioned as a repayment option in some of our loan paperwork in 2012/2013, therefore we relied on the promise of that repayment plan when we took out the loan. Therefore contract law governs.
However, I'm pretty sure that it was also confirmed that simply signing up for PAYE actually constitutes some form of contract with the lender that you'll abide by the terms of the repayment plan or some shit. |
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Date: July 23rd, 2014 4:50 PM Author: Doobsian lilac police squad (citing random FAQ as evidence that taxpayers are locked in to eating hundreds of thousands of dollars of his debt) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2626049&forum_id=2#25988700) |
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Date: July 23rd, 2014 4:52 PM Author: Heady Dragon Corner is that a response to the extensive discussion on auto admit or the website that's purely focused on student loans and got information direct from the dept of edu on several occasions confirming that those currently enrolled in PAYE cannot have their terms changed unless they choose to opt into the new PAYE proposed by the Obama administration or any subsequent repayment plans. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2626049&forum_id=2#25988714) |
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Date: July 23rd, 2014 4:55 PM Author: Doobsian lilac police squad Congress is the one proposing the bills, man. Not the dept of edu and whatever $12 an hour phone operator they have reassuring you. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2626049&forum_id=2#25988727) |
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Date: July 23rd, 2014 4:57 PM Author: Heady Dragon Corner I understand that, however basic contract principles still apply. If I enter into contract with the federal gov't, the gov't can't just unilaterally change the terms of that contract after I've relied on it, to terms that dramatically favor them. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2626049&forum_id=2#25988735) |
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Date: July 23rd, 2014 5:03 PM Author: cheese-eating abode Were these repayment plans contractual obligations? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2626049&forum_id=2#25988758) |
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Date: July 23rd, 2014 5:31 PM Author: contagious hospital they were specific terms of repayment in the MPN itself for loans originated at that time (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2626049&forum_id=2#25988890) |
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Date: July 23rd, 2014 5:57 PM Author: Glittery Red Garrison So they can't cut pensions, SSI, or Medicaid either??? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2626049&forum_id=2#25989000) |
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Date: July 23rd, 2014 6:03 PM Author: Doobsian lilac police squad tucker act, bro. Government's hands are tied as fuck. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2626049&forum_id=2#25989026) |
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Date: July 23rd, 2014 6:15 PM Author: charismatic cerise state SSI and medicaid aren't contracts
I'm not sure the fed gov has ever tried to cut a vested pension |
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Date: July 24th, 2014 11:27 AM Author: Sinister insecure sound barrier sanctuary (guy who is unfamiliar with US history regarding respecting contracts with another group obsessed with wampum) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2626049&forum_id=2#25993169) |
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Date: July 23rd, 2014 3:01 PM Author: Indecent range party of the first part Thank god some people in congress have read my hundreds of letters. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2626049&forum_id=2#25987991) |
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Date: July 23rd, 2014 3:32 PM Author: Slimy masturbator senate *earl not satisfied with only 30 years of repayment* "Hm, for now on I'll write 2 letters a week instead of 1." |
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Date: July 23rd, 2014 3:53 PM Author: Odious tan mexican field why would Obama sign off on this when he just signed that exec order? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2626049&forum_id=2#25988266) |
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Date: July 23rd, 2014 4:04 PM Author: Doobsian lilac police squad Obama wants to cap forgiveness at $57.5K also. Everybody is on the same page here. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2626049&forum_id=2#25988364) |
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Date: July 23rd, 2014 4:15 PM Author: Odious tan mexican field love your passion bro (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2626049&forum_id=2#25988437) |
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Date: July 23rd, 2014 4:55 PM Author: cheese-eating abode There's a reason the exec order doesn't kick in until the end of 2015. It's merely a bargaining position. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2626049&forum_id=2#25988722) |
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Date: July 23rd, 2014 3:29 PM Author: Coral yarmulke Does the bill apply retroactively (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2626049&forum_id=2#25988151) |
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Date: July 23rd, 2014 3:54 PM Author: charismatic cerise state no (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2626049&forum_id=2#25988269) |
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Date: July 23rd, 2014 4:03 PM Author: Doobsian lilac police squad Yeah, it overwrites previous rules, no grandfathering. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2626049&forum_id=2#25988360) |
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Date: July 23rd, 2014 4:27 PM Author: Heady Dragon Corner no (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2626049&forum_id=2#25988520) |
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Date: July 23rd, 2014 4:55 PM Author: Cowardly striped hyena spot OFS - why would it allow just the last couple of years of lazy deadbeat graduates screw Uncle Sam out of his green? Art. I, Sec. 10, Clause 1 contract clause doesn't bind the Feds. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2626049&forum_id=2#25988724) |
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Date: July 23rd, 2014 4:57 PM Author: Doobsian lilac police squad Basic Fairness won't allow some dude graduating from Boalt to get $340K forgiven while another dude graduating a year later is capped at $57.5K. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2626049&forum_id=2#25988732) |
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Date: July 24th, 2014 11:21 AM Author: Buck-toothed crimson whorehouse like how a bro who started college in october, 2007 can get PAYE. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2626049&forum_id=2#25993143) |
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Date: July 23rd, 2014 5:00 PM Author: charismatic cerise state tucker act waives fed immunity on contract claims (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2626049&forum_id=2#25988747) |
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Date: July 23rd, 2014 5:03 PM Author: Doobsian lilac police squad (guy citing 19th century act as evidence that he must get his $325K debt from Touro discharged) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2626049&forum_id=2#25988759) |
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Date: July 23rd, 2014 5:06 PM Author: cheese-eating abode (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2626049&forum_id=2#25988776) |
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Date: July 23rd, 2014 5:14 PM Author: pale know-it-all den (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2626049&forum_id=2#25988806) |
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Date: July 23rd, 2014 6:28 PM Author: Sick Fortuitous Meteor (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2626049&forum_id=2#25989149) |