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Closing out books on first year of solo practice - lost two grand
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Date: December 29th, 2017 12:00 PM Author: titillating irate lay almost to the penny. This doesn't count over $10,000 which I have in advanced client costs, which don't show on the books as "losses" because they're technically recoverable.
Taking q's. |
Date: December 29th, 2017 12:01 PM Author: Motley International Law Enforcement Agency what did you pay yourself? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3843359&forum_id=2#35034300) |
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Date: December 29th, 2017 12:04 PM Author: titillating irate lay $0, this is not some accounting scam whereby I make it look like I lost money for tax purposes. I literally took in less money than I spent.
I should add that it's not really a full year, but pretty close. |
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Date: December 29th, 2017 12:09 PM Author: Motley International Law Enforcement Agency 1. what kind of practice areas do you do?
2. mostly contingency or hourly?
3. How many files did you take on this year?
4. Any lessons on this you care to tell us?
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Date: December 29th, 2017 12:13 PM Author: titillating irate lay Employment contingency, mostly but not exclusively. I ended up making little on my few hourly cases because lazy opposing counsel didn't push their cases, meaning I couldn't bill anything.
Advice would be to prep more than I did. I didn't buy a computer, have a logo made, or order business cards, until *after* I had already given notice at my job. That was a big mistake - better to do all that while still on someone else's dime. I think I was also too cheap upfront. I should have had marketing ready to go full throttle on day one, and not sweat a couple hundred bucks here or there.
That being said, I psychologically needed some time off. So those incredibly quiet first couple of months were bad from a business perspective but probably necessary in a more personal sense. |
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Date: December 29th, 2017 12:16 PM Author: titillating irate lay number of files - about 30. But some of those are matters with two hours in them, worth a couple hundred bucks; some are class actions. The number of files doesn't tell you much. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3843359&forum_id=2#35034426) |
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Date: December 29th, 2017 12:20 PM Author: Motley International Law Enforcement Agency explain how your marketing plan should have been (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3843359&forum_id=2#35034453) |
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Date: December 29th, 2017 12:22 PM Author: titillating irate lay just simple stuff, have the website already up, the blog articles written, business cards already printed. Nothing like radio ads or billboards. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3843359&forum_id=2#35034473) |
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Date: December 29th, 2017 12:26 PM Author: Motley International Law Enforcement Agency had lunch with a solo buddy last week. He gets majority of his clients from his lawyer friends who don't handle his sort of law.
Have you been networking at lawyer events a lot? |
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Date: December 29th, 2017 12:28 PM Author: titillating irate lay I do get some referrals, but this is another area where being in biglaw put me behind the 8 ball. I had a "national" practice not a local one. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3843359&forum_id=2#35034541) |
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Date: December 29th, 2017 12:35 PM Author: Concupiscible doctorate center networking with other professionals who come into contact with people who may be your clients is huge. at first, you will be the one sending them business, but it will come back. also, this is basic, but if you don't have any business to send at first, try to make strategic introductions between people who can benefit each other - they will remember you as the person who connected them, and it bolsters your reputation with both. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3843359&forum_id=2#35034584) |
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Date: December 29th, 2017 12:36 PM Author: Opaque range Bro if you get any PI referrals will you send them to us (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3843359&forum_id=2#35034592) |
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Date: December 29th, 2017 12:38 PM Author: Concupiscible doctorate center will you pay me a referral? do you handle workers comp claims? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3843359&forum_id=2#35034602) |
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Date: December 29th, 2017 12:42 PM Author: Opaque range Of course we will pay you a referral. I think we're undecided on workers compensation right now but having discussions about it. How many of those do you get? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3843359&forum_id=2#35034644) |
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Date: December 29th, 2017 12:45 PM Author: Concupiscible doctorate center i have very little exposure to PI or workers comp. a few a year maybe. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3843359&forum_id=2#35034659) |
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Date: December 29th, 2017 12:47 PM Author: Opaque range One incredible PI case can make all of us millionaires. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3843359&forum_id=2#35034677) |
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Date: December 29th, 2017 12:20 PM Author: Opaque range How did you get your cases? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3843359&forum_id=2#35034455) |
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Date: December 29th, 2017 1:15 PM Author: titillating irate lay some online advertising, some referrals. Recently an older lawyer who practices in a related area has started sending me lots of cases to go 50-50 on.
you should be extremely grateful for the CSLG pipeline. Makes your life 10x easier |
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Date: December 29th, 2017 12:06 PM Author: Flesh flatulent hunting ground i'd pay 2k to not have a boss (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3843359&forum_id=2#35034331) |
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Date: December 29th, 2017 12:28 PM Author: Tripping nursing home national security agency (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3843359&forum_id=2#35034535) |
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Date: December 29th, 2017 12:06 PM Author: Passionate Deep Stag Film What are your loss leaders? How to sharpen for the next year? BTW, I think that's a pretty good outcome for the first year solo. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3843359&forum_id=2#35034336) |
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Date: December 29th, 2017 12:07 PM Author: Tripping nursing home national security agency (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3843359&forum_id=2#35034337) |
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Date: December 29th, 2017 12:10 PM Author: titillating irate lay Yeah I was actually surprised when I ran the numbers, it feels worse than that. I think I was overconfident going in about how easy it would be to make money; biglaw warps your mind into thinking "of course people will line up to pay $300 an hour for my services, that's a stone cold bargain!"
I didn't do any loss leaders, in retrospect I wish I had dabbled in consumer bankruptcy. One or two cases a month would've been nice, especially in the first couple of months.
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Date: December 29th, 2017 12:11 PM Author: Passionate Deep Stag Film Attaboy. Nice work.
I know, the whole $300 per hour thing only works when its OPM.
Do a couple DUIs to ramp things up a bit. There are standard ways to treat them--it's routine as all fuck. |
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Date: December 29th, 2017 12:14 PM Author: titillating irate lay terrified of state court, terrified of criminal law. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3843359&forum_id=2#35034389) |
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Date: December 29th, 2017 12:14 PM Author: Tripping nursing home national security agency you can do it. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3843359&forum_id=2#35034401) |
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Date: December 29th, 2017 12:16 PM Author: Passionate Deep Stag Film DUIs are perfect guinea pigs for you, man. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3843359&forum_id=2#35034417) |
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Date: December 29th, 2017 12:17 PM Author: navy jap State court should be your best friend as P's attorney. Gotta get over that. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3843359&forum_id=2#35034433) |
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Date: December 29th, 2017 12:23 PM Author: supple bearded toilet seat (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3843359&forum_id=2#35034487) |
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Date: December 29th, 2017 12:19 PM Author: Opaque range Why would you be scared of state court? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3843359&forum_id=2#35034439) |
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Date: December 29th, 2017 12:21 PM Author: titillating irate lay I have never practiced in my home state's court. I literally don't know how it works and I'm embarrassed to ask. There is some degree of foolish pride. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3843359&forum_id=2#35034466) |
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Date: December 29th, 2017 12:24 PM Author: supple bearded toilet seat You'd be amazed at what they will let you get away with not knowing (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3843359&forum_id=2#35034488) |
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Date: December 29th, 2017 12:30 PM Author: Motley International Law Enforcement Agency do they have online filings system in your county?
If so, look up some case filings from prominent attorneys in your practice area. Pull up their pleadings, MSJs, orders, etc, should give you a good idea of what they do. Most of them won't be that different from the federal stuff, honestly. Hell, go sit in court on motion days and just observe. |
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Date: December 29th, 2017 12:21 PM Author: Motley International Law Enforcement Agency state court is great man. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3843359&forum_id=2#35034463) |
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Date: July 13th, 2018 12:04 AM Author: Irradiated Fluffy Property I'm not even a lawyer and I know that these are two things you should NOT be nervous about (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3843359&forum_id=2#36416761) |
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Date: December 29th, 2017 12:13 PM Author: Judgmental trip hospital Startup loses money in first year, news at 11 (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3843359&forum_id=2#35034378) |
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Date: December 29th, 2017 12:14 PM Author: Passionate Deep Stag Film Yeah but not that much. Kind of wish I could afford such an experiment. But I'd have to have a trust fund or something. |
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Date: December 29th, 2017 12:30 PM Author: titillating irate lay My goal for this year was zero, so I'm not that far behind. I did think there would be more expenses, and more income. So I was close to zero, but not how I expected to reach it. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3843359&forum_id=2#35034556) |
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Date: December 29th, 2017 12:14 PM Author: vibrant philosopher-king lodge damn, I was starting to think from other poasters that everyone makes 6 figures easy their first year solo (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3843359&forum_id=2#35034388) |
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Date: December 29th, 2017 12:14 PM Author: titillating irate lay not flame watching TT make it was one reason I thought I could do this. He is the laziest and worst lawyer in history yet claims to make $200K a year working from Thailand (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3843359&forum_id=2#35034402) |
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Date: December 29th, 2017 12:55 PM Author: vivacious haunting coffee pot he also practices in california (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3843359&forum_id=2#35034748) |
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Date: December 29th, 2017 12:58 PM Author: titillating irate lay This has a lot to do with it. I changed from a defense counsel in a blue state to a plaintiffs' counsel in a red state, and the difference in how cases are valued is just shocking. I knew that would be true to some extent but I deeply underestimated the degree. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3843359&forum_id=2#35034764) |
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Date: December 30th, 2017 1:17 AM Author: Blue Arrogant Party Of The First Part What's the hype with PI law and Cali? Still don't get it (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3843359&forum_id=2#35040181) |
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Date: December 30th, 2017 1:35 AM Author: Blue Arrogant Party Of The First Part (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3843359&forum_id=2#35040303) |
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Date: December 30th, 2017 1:20 AM Author: hot piazza internal respiration MODS! (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3843359&forum_id=2#35040208) |
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Date: December 29th, 2017 12:15 PM Author: Passionate Deep Stag Film Yeah, you don't. You especially don't if it is in any way conditioned on clients getting your bills in the mail for services already performed and paying them (lol). Any sort of solo practice along those lines just isn't going to function without a lot of other stuff to balance it out. |
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Date: December 29th, 2017 12:15 PM Author: Spectacular soggy fortuitous meteor What is the size of your household? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3843359&forum_id=2#35034405) |
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Date: December 29th, 2017 12:17 PM Author: titillating irate lay 2300 sq ft, give or take (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3843359&forum_id=2#35034429) |
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Date: December 29th, 2017 12:15 PM Author: Opaque range Did you get any clients? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3843359&forum_id=2#35034410) |
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Date: December 29th, 2017 12:20 PM Author: titillating irate lay "getting" clients is laughably easy in contingency practices, which is something I didn't really understand. I've literally never had a client who I wanted to sign up, refuse to sign up.
It's the opposite, I spend more time turning people down. One of the worst parts of the solo life is listening to people who have no case. Many of these people will vociferously argue with you, beg, cry. It can be a real time suck and again is something that biglaw didn't prepare me for. |
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Date: December 29th, 2017 12:21 PM Author: Opaque range Did you advertise? If Kenny and I bring in no income next year I'll be homeless. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3843359&forum_id=2#35034460) |
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Date: December 29th, 2017 12:23 PM Author: titillating irate lay so cal is a nice place to be homeless. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3843359&forum_id=2#35034481) |
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Date: December 29th, 2017 12:16 PM Author: fiercely-loyal khaki den monthly overhead? fees earned? practice areas? |
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Date: December 29th, 2017 12:26 PM Author: titillating irate lay Monthly overhead, setting aside case expenses, is about $1100-1200. $800 for rent, $150 for telephone/fax, plus WL fees, random office supplies. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3843359&forum_id=2#35034511) |
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Date: December 29th, 2017 12:20 PM Author: marvelous very tactful french chef headpube you should be on cash accounting you lost $12,000, not $2,000 |
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Date: December 29th, 2017 12:23 PM Author: titillating irate lay I'm just telling you what quickbooks tells me (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3843359&forum_id=2#35034476) |
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Date: December 29th, 2017 12:29 PM Author: At-the-ready new version place of business Brother, let me know if I can help with general advice on marketing/getting clients/running a practice/etc. I am a solo in a different practice area but I'm happy to help any other XOers who want to take this journey. I made a little over $100k in profit my first year and will probably make about $220k in profit this year (adding back in my salary and the cost of my health insurance). I'm no CSLG but if I can help, let me know.
martinprincexo@yandex.com |
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Date: December 29th, 2017 12:31 PM Author: titillating irate lay thanks brother you can take it down.
actually email bounced back. wtf are you using a Russian website |
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Date: December 29th, 2017 12:31 PM Author: Motley International Law Enforcement Agency 180 (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3843359&forum_id=2#35034568) |
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Date: December 29th, 2017 12:37 PM Author: Mind-boggling bawdyhouse dopamine 180 (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3843359&forum_id=2#35034599) |
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Date: December 29th, 2017 12:43 PM Author: Opaque range 180 (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3843359&forum_id=2#35034645) |
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Date: December 29th, 2017 12:53 PM Author: medicated point wagecucks Really 180 what xo is becoming (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3843359&forum_id=2#35034725) |
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Date: December 29th, 2017 1:02 PM Author: Tripping nursing home national security agency (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3843359&forum_id=2#35034780) |
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Date: December 29th, 2017 1:05 PM Author: Poppy Meetinghouse (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3843359&forum_id=2#35034804) |
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Date: December 29th, 2017 1:09 PM Author: razzle-dazzle pungent weed whacker resort (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3843359&forum_id=2#35034840) |
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Date: December 29th, 2017 1:16 PM Author: Concupiscible doctorate center (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3843359&forum_id=2#35034919) |
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Date: December 29th, 2017 12:31 PM Author: Concupiscible doctorate center i lost a lot more than that my first year, and didn't pay myself. year two was better, and i was able to take a mediocre salary. year three is when things really started working. talking with other solos (and really any startup small business), this is a common experience. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3843359&forum_id=2#35034566) |
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Date: December 29th, 2017 12:37 PM Author: Opaque range How did you survive in the meantime (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3843359&forum_id=2#35034600) |
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Date: December 29th, 2017 12:38 PM Author: Concupiscible doctorate center substantial savings and wife's income (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3843359&forum_id=2#35034605) |
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Date: December 29th, 2017 12:40 PM Author: Concupiscible doctorate center also, my practice area has higher overhead than yours, so it will be easier in the beginning on the expense side for you. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3843359&forum_id=2#35034615) |
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Date: December 29th, 2017 12:42 PM Author: Opaque range Our expenses will be incredibly low.
100 for our virtual office Malpractice Insurance costs Filing fees (we will get a lot of fee waivers) Service of process fees |
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Date: December 29th, 2017 12:45 PM Author: Concupiscible doctorate center my overhead right now runs about $15K per month (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3843359&forum_id=2#35034662) |
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Date: December 29th, 2017 12:47 PM Author: Opaque range Jesus Christ
We should get lunch or a few beers sometime
Hit me up at zozohthchandler@gmail.com |
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Date: December 29th, 2017 12:56 PM Author: Concupiscible doctorate center that'd be cool, yeah. so are you actually doing it? going solo? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3843359&forum_id=2#35034752) |
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Date: December 29th, 2017 12:59 PM Author: Opaque range Not solo. Starting a firm with Kenny and CSLG. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3843359&forum_id=2#35034770) |
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Date: December 29th, 2017 1:00 PM Author: Concupiscible doctorate center just read one of the other threads. 180, that's awesome. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3843359&forum_id=2#35034778) |
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Date: December 29th, 2017 1:02 PM Author: Opaque range U can trust me too man. I'm a mod btw. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3843359&forum_id=2#35034784) |
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Date: December 29th, 2017 1:17 PM Author: Tripping nursing home national security agency GET.
MONEY.
BRO. |
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Date: December 29th, 2017 1:52 PM Author: house-broken school cafeteria wrinkle Damn, that's higher than my overhead. What are you spending all that money on? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3843359&forum_id=2#35035252) |
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Date: December 29th, 2017 12:41 PM Author: Bisexual people who are hurt brunch took profits from first bitcoin bubble (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3843359&forum_id=2#35034633) |
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Date: December 29th, 2017 12:46 PM Author: geriatric disturbing persian If you're doing mostly contingency, that's not bad at all. I'm sure money will start rolling in from settlements in year 2-3. Those happy clients will refer you some more employment contingency cases (those types probably travel in the same circles). Have you talked to your local chamber of commerce or the local orgs in the area (Rotary club etc.)? Do you do employment defense work too? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3843359&forum_id=2#35034672) |
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Date: December 29th, 2017 12:49 PM Author: titillating irate lay I would love to have a few hourly cases just to pay for expenses. But this area is saturated with employment defense attorneys, with very few employment plaintiff specialists. From what I can tell most plaintiff-side cases are brought by PI attorneys or generalists who are just trying out something on a lark. So there's more of an open market niche on the plaintiff side.
edit: also I've given a couple of speeches to HR groups and have not even gotten a single phone call out of them. |
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Date: December 29th, 2017 12:55 PM Author: Concupiscible doctorate center network with other lawyers. my area is similar - lots of employment defense attorneys, few employment plaintiffs attorneys. if you get known as an employment plaintiffs attorney you will get sent clients simply because you do plaintiffs work. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3843359&forum_id=2#35034747) |
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Date: December 29th, 2017 12:58 PM Author: geriatric disturbing persian I see. I have a friend who went solo. One of the things he did to snag a nice small to mid-size business as a client was look through ads for general counsels where the company would be hiring its first attorney. He applied for the position and met with a company and explained why they'd be wasting money on a full-time gc and gave them a flat-fee deal ($6k a month to his solo firm, not including litigation for which they'd pay extra).
There are companies out there that are "in-betweeners" (too big not to have dedicated legal work but still too small be a sophisticated shopper for legal services). They need someone to map out a strategy for tackling the legal work. Too often they've been burned by expensive biglaw and midlaw firms. This client now pays his monthly bills and gives him a small base salary. I thought the way he snagged this client was pretty ingenious. |
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Date: December 29th, 2017 12:59 PM Author: titillating irate lay that is fucking brilliant (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3843359&forum_id=2#35034769) |
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Date: December 29th, 2017 1:04 PM Author: geriatric disturbing persian He's smart and extremely ballsy. He went in to the interview with what was basically a financial presentation. They loved it. He's ex-biglaw too so he was able to sympathize with the bs they'd probably been through with expensive biglaw and even boutique firms. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3843359&forum_id=2#35034797) |
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Date: December 29th, 2017 1:08 PM Author: ruby sinister foreskin round eye What did you do for health insurance? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3843359&forum_id=2#35034827) |
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Date: December 29th, 2017 1:15 PM Author: titillating irate lay wife (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3843359&forum_id=2#35034904) |
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Date: December 29th, 2017 1:15 PM Author: Opaque range I'll have to get my own health insurance fuck my ass (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3843359&forum_id=2#35034911) |
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Date: December 30th, 2017 7:09 AM Author: Orchid Frozen Abode As a former solo, I share your pain and wish you all the best. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3843359&forum_id=2#35041187) |
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Date: December 30th, 2017 11:56 AM Author: titillating irate lay ty, what do you do now? I'm not in "pain" btw I could live off biglaw savings & wife for literally years. That is the one part of biglaw I look fondly on. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3843359&forum_id=2#35042161) |
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Date: July 12th, 2018 8:04 PM Author: splenetic station Updates? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3843359&forum_id=2#36414965) |
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Date: July 12th, 2018 10:32 PM Author: titillating irate lay we gonna maek it. I'll check QB tomorrow but I'm guessing 40-50K in proft for first 6 months of 2018 (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3843359&forum_id=2#36416231) |
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Date: July 12th, 2018 10:45 PM Author: splenetic station Nice man. Sorry if you posted already but what was your pre solo experience . Biglaw lit? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3843359&forum_id=2#36416344) |
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Date: July 12th, 2018 11:28 PM Author: titillating irate lay Yeah pretty standard. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3843359&forum_id=2#36416614) |
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Date: July 12th, 2018 11:56 PM Author: hot piazza internal respiration 180.
what kind of cases do you do now |
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Date: July 12th, 2018 10:47 PM Author: Crimson know-it-all ticket booth blood rage u are 100% gonna maek it. dassit. don't equivocate. say it three times in the morning and at night.
IMMA MAEK IT IMMA MAEK IT I MAED IT! |
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Date: July 12th, 2018 11:29 PM Author: Fantasy-prone flickering fat ankles 180 (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3843359&forum_id=2#36416619) |
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Date: July 13th, 2018 11:03 AM Author: titillating irate lay Just checked - $45K YTD. I also have about $20-25K in fees for settlements where I'm waiting for the check to come in, although those might take a month or two. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3843359&forum_id=2#36418304) |
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Date: July 12th, 2018 8:15 PM Author: Slap-happy market jewess I live my life a quarter mile at a time. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3843359&forum_id=2#36415016) |
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Date: July 12th, 2018 11:46 PM Author: Slap-happy market jewess Nothing else matters: not the mortgage, not the store, not my team and all their bullsh*t. For those ten seconds or less, I'm free. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3843359&forum_id=2#36416699) |
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Date: July 12th, 2018 11:32 PM Author: Copper provocative locale organic girlfriend you should have tried it straight out of law school during the great recession (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3843359&forum_id=2#36416638) |