I'm curious about your conception of religion,

in your conception,

1) Does God care about what happens here on earth, in our temporal lives? Does what we do here matter?

2) Do we have free will? Did God give us free will?

3) Is God good? Does he love us, or are we merely toys for his amusement? Or something else, what's his relationship to us?

Thank you

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4076304&forum_id=2#36800528)

God cares about what happens in the material world because he is the creator of it. He created this world and is in the process of reconciling it to himself, foremost through christ.

So our freedom, together with the purpose of material creation as reconciliation, means what we do in our lives matters.

And god loves us so much that he shared his personhood with us and that is supremely good.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4076304&forum_id=2#36800578)

I'm not familiar with the total corpus of Osteen's work, but your criticism strikes me as highly pedantic

I think a considerably more charitable reading is appropriate.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4076304&forum_id=2#36800605)

seems good enough but i like going hard in the paint man

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4076304&forum_id=2#36800609)

"“My only criticism is this: he preaches on only one topic. that topic of course, is subsequent blessing. That is a genuinely biblical theme, and perhaps it deserves more stress in today’s church. But there is so much more in God’s Word!"

https://bbhchurchconnection.wordpress.com/2015/03/19/john-frames-thoughts-on-joel-osteen/

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4076304&forum_id=2#36800649)

what's inappropriate about that? the Bible is a big book, does every message from it have to stress the same themes that you would stress?

Why is that an inappropriate theme to stress?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4076304&forum_id=2#36800691)

How are you imagining that Osteen is supposed to give them the whole boat?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4076304&forum_id=2#36800701)

A truly godly motivation is rooted in and explicitly refers to the reconciliation of this world with god through christ. It would be as easy as saying "trust god HAS ALREADY GIVEN YOU all the money you need to sustain yourself and meet god in christ". That was christ's teaching, and is all you really need to say about money.

that god has already given you what you need to meet him through christ is not a conclusion of christianity. that's a premise. osteen tries to teach 1 christian premise as if it were the teaching of christianity. and worse yet, he teaches it INCORRECTLY. you don't have faith in god so you can endure hard times and get more money later. God has given you everything you need at every moment to begin to try to meet him. Osteen's theodicy is fundamentally flawed in suggesting otherwise. He doesn't believe god is supremely good, otherwise why are you asking for things in the future? he is therefore an atheist and as shown earlier he is a materialist.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4076304&forum_id=2#36800747)

After lawman started Osteen threading, I was curious enough that I flipped over to the Osteen channel on Sirius while I was driving around.

I'm guessing that at this point I've listened to something on the order of 3-4 hours broken out into 20-30 minute segments.

From my limited exposure, this doesn't seem like a fair reading of Osteen's message.

The tweet on top of the link to the speaker schedule:

"If you will focus on what you have instead of focusing on what you don’t have, then God can bless you and multiply"

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4076304&forum_id=2#36800860)

the correct answer is "you think you're gonna meet god in a job? what're you nuts?"

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4076304&forum_id=2#36800888)

-----------

we're all cynical cool kids here, where we know jobs inherently suck

but why shouldn't we expect the 40 hours a week we spend at work to further God's plan for the universe?

Why does God have us doing this if it doesn't?

Granting your point about the hubris of having an opinions as to whether this lady's particular work was part of God's plan.

Does it seem impossible that her being at the job was not in accordance with God's plan for the universe? (Do we have free will? )

Osteen's point about maybe you're not supposed to have that blessing 'right now', which I heard him make several times in the time I listened to him, seems like a good one

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4076304&forum_id=2#36800966)

her job might not be in "accordance with god's plan" but that would be due to her error in following god in faith. wishing for god to give her a better job is not how you commune with god. you get the correct job for you by listening to what god says and accepting what he gives, not making requests.

also lol how convenient, "you don't deserve god's blessings today, but buy my book and ill tell you how to get them" lmfao

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4076304&forum_id=2#36800990)

You sure you're not doing all the work with value judgment of 'better' here?

Leaving Osteen out of this for a second.

Lets grant that God blessed us certain talents.

Lets also grant that its (maybe) not important to God's plan the exact number of zero's in our bank account, but that certain ways we could spend our professional time let us use those talents better or worse that other ways we could spend our professional time.

You sure that "you dont need a better job to meet god through christ every day", is the right message to tell this lady?

Honestly, (bringing Osteen back into it), I'm not sure that what Osteen told her, isn't a better answer to her distress.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4076304&forum_id=2#36801107)

does God have a plan for the universe?

does the arrangement of material objects matter to it?

If so, shouldn't one arrangement further God's plan more or less than another arrangement of it?

If not, how does what happen here matter one way or the other?

-----------

I'm sure I'm misreading your theology, but I get a strong sense of lets get baptized, then bunker down until salvation comes.

Tell me why I'm wrong.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4076304&forum_id=2#36801180)

through personal salvation we can together achieve god's will, which is the reconciliation of the created world with god. the arrangements of matter within this world have a contingent relationship to reconciliation (i.e. reconciliation can be realized under different arrangements provided they have the same functional properties).

there is only one correct world, the world in which everyone follows god's will through synergia. judging better or worse is only relevant when comparing deviations from the one correct world and is therefore irrelevant.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4076304&forum_id=2#36801229)

certainly something can deviate more or less from the correct world? Right?

So, how is it therefore irrelevant?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4076304&forum_id=2#36801279)

Grant that we're not positioned to judge whether the temporal universe is better or worse,

is it still not either better or worse, even independent our judgment about it?

Shouldn't it matter whether the temporal universe is better or worse?

why doesn't the material arrangement of the universe matter to it?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4076304&forum_id=2#36801417)

according to god? how do you know?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4076304&forum_id=2#36801426)

Thanks for BS'ing with me for a little bit

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4076304&forum_id=2#36801554)

As I’ve said, most of the Osteen haters here have never listened to even one of his messages. They have their own issues which causes them to lash out at such an undeniably positive force for good.

How much do you want to bet that MIG has spent at LEAST 10x the amount of time hating on Osteen here than actually listening to the guy?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4076304&forum_id=2#36800972)

MIG seems to have at least engaged the ideas

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4076304&forum_id=2#36801123)

But it’s true that he’s at least attempted to provide a substantive response. He seems like a psychiatrist who attempts to diagnose a famous personality without ever having met them in person.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4076304&forum_id=2#36801159)

I think you’ve spent at LEAST 10x the amount of time raging against Osteen on here, and pretending you know his messages, rather than actually listening to the man. Am I right?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4076304&forum_id=2#36801183)

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4076304&forum_id=2#36801239)

LOL at spending so much time raging against Osteen when you’ve never even listened to any of his messages.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4076304&forum_id=2#36801580)

Frame begins his essay by pointing to two levels of divine blessing: initial grace (or God’s initial saving grace) and subsequent blessing. He notes that Luther and Calvin were much more balanced than many of their followers. Luther, he says, “lived somewhat more in the realm of initial grace, and Calvin lived somewhat more in the area of subsequent blessing.” Frame says the evaluation of Osteen is “more complicated” than what his normal critics usually state. First, Osteen’s “preaching of blessing is presented in a salvation context–to people who are committed to Christ as Lord and Savior.” (p. 321) This means it “is a preaching of what I have called subsequent blessing, not a preaching of salvation based on works.” (p. 321) Frame says that while he disagrees with some of Osteen’s applications of Scripture he thinks that “for the most part they are true expositions of the passages he cites.” (p. 321) Is Osteen part of the “pray for a bigger house” kind of materialism? Frame urges caution here. “Although he does urge his audience to pray for earthly advancement and prosperity, he always puts that in a context of godly motivations.” (p. 321) Frame says he has been moved by one of Osteen’s sermons and that he has “found many of [his] sermons to be personally beneficial.” (p. 321)

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4076304&forum_id=2#36800662)