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Discuss quitting Biglaw after 2 years
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Date: November 19th, 2018 9:20 AM Author: Chocolate bateful tanning salon Some of you seem to think it's fine to quit biglaw after 2 or so years and simply go in-house. I think that's a foolish decision. Let's do the math:
1) Tuition x books = $65,000/year x 3 = $195,000 2) Rent = ~$25,000 per year x 3 = $75,000 *not factoring in 3 prime years of your twenties Subtotal: $270,000 Less - A) ~$43,000 for 2L summer (won't even bother taxing this) B) ~10,000 for your typical BS 1L summer gig Total: ~$220,000 all-in
After your first two-years in Biglaw, you will have made $440,000 or so with bonus. After taxes (assume NYC), that leaves you with $240,000 or so. Assume you have a roommate and pay $3,000/month in rent. That leaves you at about $170,000. Won't subtract ordinary cost of living like food or drinks.
In short, after 2 years, you are not only $50K in the hole, but you will have spent 5 years doing something you eventually decided you no longer want to do, and worst of all, you will have severely restricted your ability to pursue another career.
So the alternative that is often suggested is to go "inhouse." Most in-house jobs pay $120-$180K, and if you enter at a very junior level, chances of you advancing to AGC/GC are slim to none, as those are typically relationship hires or limited to partners only. Not to mention, you cannot have a family and live in NYC off of $120-$180K / year when you are still paying off your law school loans, so you will end up having to move to ARE country.
So that begs the question: why did you even do law school in the first place? If you have any inkling that you would hate biglaw, why would you even start this process only to end up way behind 5 years later? You would have a better outcome doing any number of careers other than law, if your plan is to drop out after 2 years.
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Date: November 19th, 2018 11:47 AM Author: Aphrodisiac church tattoo Ljl at this prole and his student loans. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4137073&forum_id=2#37263119) |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 5:40 PM Author: low-t topaz deer antler "So that begs the question: why did you even do law school in the first place?"
No. No it doesn't. |
Date: November 19th, 2018 9:22 AM Author: indecent navy boiling water corner How often do you think about stepping in front of a bus? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4137073&forum_id=2#37262290) |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 9:23 AM Author: Chocolate bateful tanning salon I love my life, how about yourself? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4137073&forum_id=2#37262297) |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 9:24 AM Author: indecent navy boiling water corner That doesn't come through in your poasts (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4137073&forum_id=2#37262299) |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 9:25 AM Author: Chocolate bateful tanning salon OK Ms. Cleo. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4137073&forum_id=2#37262306) |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 3:25 PM Author: startled genital piercing lol (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4137073&forum_id=2#37264597) |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 9:22 AM Author: galvanic domesticated parlor (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4137073&forum_id=2#37262293) |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 9:24 AM Author: umber spot athletic conference You can live off the money saved in Thailand for several years while you figure out next steps (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4137073&forum_id=2#37262301) |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 9:24 AM Author: dun reading party It’s fine if you can get “in house”. I left biglaw after two years to go to a boutique and, 8 years into my career, I can say it’s one of the better decisions I have made. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4137073&forum_id=2#37262302) |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 9:25 AM Author: Chocolate bateful tanning salon Do you regret going to law school in the first place, or do you actually enjoy the practice of law? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4137073&forum_id=2#37262311) |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 9:27 AM Author: dun reading party I enjoy it as far as the actual work goes. The demands of a service industry can be stressful but whatever it’s better than 99% of other jobs. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4137073&forum_id=2#37262316) |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 9:28 AM Author: Chocolate bateful tanning salon At least you're still in a law firm. My poast was directed to those saying you should just go inhouse after 2 years. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4137073&forum_id=2#37262323) |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 9:27 AM Author: umber spot athletic conference Aren’t you about to get NOBRIKKFUSSED (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4137073&forum_id=2#37262314) |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 9:27 AM Author: dun reading party Anything is possible. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4137073&forum_id=2#37262319) |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 9:28 AM Author: Drab Marvelous Principal's Office (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4137073&forum_id=2#37262325) |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 9:31 AM Author: umber spot athletic conference So it was all worth it to be some of counsel toad for a hook nosed jew (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4137073&forum_id=2#37262343) |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 9:29 AM Author: Chocolate bateful tanning salon Why is this bro getting no breakfasted? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4137073&forum_id=2#37262329) |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 9:46 AM Author: sadistic contagious idea he suggested wtf
the whole point of going to a "boutique" is that they actually serve breakfast. This dude is on ten-year pship track and still might get shut out, even at a boutique? this profession sucks |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 10:05 AM Author: Chocolate bateful tanning salon Leaving for a boutique or midlaw at year 1-3 is a terrible idea generally, as you'll be treated no differently than someone who started there. Boutiques/midlaw refuse to believe they "train" worse associates than the V30. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4137073&forum_id=2#37262442) |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 10:25 AM Author: Infuriating french chef Probably because for the work they do and their expectations, they don't. Biglaw trains for biglaw. I've seen in-house lawyers that went straight in-house out of law school or got their law degrees part times and moved into lawyer roles that didn't work in any law firms and were great in-house lawyers. Similarly, a large number of lawyers start in government and then go in-house, and I don't see any consequence to that other than a bit less money at the start of their careers. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4137073&forum_id=2#37262517) |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 10:28 AM Author: Chocolate bateful tanning salon On the tranny side, I've never seen a good in-house that had went straight to in-house. In fact they have 100% been awful, but worse so b/c they come up with all sorts of zany ideas they read about and want to apply it to their deal.
I'm sure in-house bros who only did HR or compliance shit are fine though. |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 10:38 AM Author: Infuriating french chef This actually proves my point. I suspect that what you think is "good" vs "awful" is very different than what the business stakeholders think is "good" vs "awful". For example, they probably do bounce ideas off you that might be awful ideas. In biglaw, someone doing that would be ridiculed, told that they need to only bring ideas that are vetted, etc. In-house, it is the opposite. A good in-house counsel brainstorms a bunch of ideas, many of which are half-baked, and then will use you to vet which ones are good and which ones are not. Sure, you might scoff that many are silly and what an idiot, but whatever ultimately gets done and works will be credited to that in-house lawyer (and generally, not you).
By the way, on the business side it works exactly the same way with the in-house lawyers playing the role you're playing. |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 10:50 AM Author: Puce theatre devastating rebuttal not flame (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4137073&forum_id=2#37262726) |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 11:06 AM Author: Chocolate bateful tanning salon In theory, what you said sounds wonderful.
What I am describing are wannabe M&A warriors who will create a massive deadlock with the other side because he insists that a 100% termination fee is completely in-line with his vast numbers of years of experience. |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 11:12 AM Author: Infuriating french chef Well, this sort of q is exactly why you're getting paid. The fact that they might think one thing is reasonable and it isn't doesn't make them a crappy lawyer. Their job is to push the envelope and your job is to review their positions and see if they are actually reasonable in light of what you've seen with other clients. The fact that you can't comprehend this strongly implies that you would make a terrible in-house attorney. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4137073&forum_id=2#37262873) |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 11:15 AM Author: Chocolate bateful tanning salon Lol.
When I work with someplace like Google's M&A team, they want to get the deal done on commercially acceptable terms and aren't making idiotic requests like a 100% termination fee (not that it would even be enforceable in the US).
It's always some junior inhouse lawyer at some stupid ass subsidiary in the middle of nowhere making these kinds of requests. And no, they're not telling me "let's push the envelope." They actually believe that they are correct and that we're not fighting hard enough for that position. Pushing the evenlope is fine - we just have to start off at a position that is defensible and enforceable under the courts of that state.
I don't know if you're talking about dinky little privately held corps, but large companies with boards and shareholders are subject to something called fiduciary duties, where the boards can't accept retarded transactional terms. That limits what kind of retarded requests we can make.
Do you know how long negotiations take when we have to argue over shit like 100% termination fees? I recall it was a S&C lawyer on the other side, and he was straight up "are you guys serious? I can't accept that it would just be too embarassing." He didn't even try to make an argument about fiduciary duties, good faith, enforceability. He just straight up called it an embarassing request. And then our little hardcharging inhouse chimes in and gets all pissy on the call, and S&C lawyer has to call me on my mobile while inhouse bro is ranting on, and tell me his client is going to walk if he doesn't shut up. So my partner had to abruptly end the call, call the client and tell him to chill the fuck out. It was a fucking shitshow that deal.
Do clients really want to pay $700K in legal fees for a $50 million fucking deal? Lol. Because that's what we ended up charging, and the client of course freaked out and tried to get out of paying. And we had to tell the GC that we spent a week arguing over the termination/indemnification package. |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 11:44 AM Author: Big pink fanboi locus LOL this is spot on. Had nearly the same thing happen to me, with the same whining about fees. Still, I found it amusing to hear a graduate of southern methodist law school or whetever the fuck telling a V10 partner he doesn't know WTF he's talking about. There was a little bit of cosmic justice in that moment. Plus in the end I don't really give a shit what happens. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4137073&forum_id=2#37263097) |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 11:53 AM Author: Infuriating french chef OTOH, consider that someone from SMU can tell a V10 partner they're a moron and leave for the day at 5pm with 0 consequences. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4137073&forum_id=2#37263168) |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 4:57 PM Author: startled genital piercing (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4137073&forum_id=2#37265032) |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 11:46 AM Author: Infuriating french chef "When I work with someplace like Google's M&A team"
Let me also stop you right there. Very few lawyers at Google work on their M&A team. It is a handful of people out of a huge legal department. For biglaw, otoh, it is a huge portion of major firms. And this is why there's a major mismatch. Yes, those people have the best credentials because there are so fucking many of them and competition is massive. If someone is smart, they avoid that rat-race entirely.
Re: your lengthy screed on 100% termination fees. No one gaf unless they make it a show-stopper. The whole biglaw notion of "omg, someone said something I think is STUPID!" is totally counter-productive and if you ever said something like that in-house the person who would be in a pile of shit would be you.
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Date: November 19th, 2018 11:53 AM Author: Chocolate bateful tanning salon So your approach is that the law firm has to defend the inhouse's position no matter how absurd? Even though the business teams are trying to get the deal to close before quarter-end and DGAF about whether we get a 4% or 6% termination fee, yet the inhouse guy wants us to push for a 100% fee?
We politely told the dude "listen, that's completely off-market and likely to be a non-starter, but we can request but expect huge pushback, at which point we should drop." But of course he didn't drop and kept fighting on to the point that the other side almost walked away from the deal. |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 11:54 AM Author: Infuriating french chef "So your approach is that the law firm has to defend the inhouse's position no matter how absurd? "
What? At no point did I even imply this.
"We politely told the dude "listen, that's completely off-market and likely to be a non-starter, but we can request but expect huge pushback, at which point we should drop." But of course he didn't drop and kept fighting on to the point that the other side almost walked away from the deal."
Right, so sounds like everyone did what they were supposed to do, no? |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 11:56 AM Author: Chocolate bateful tanning salon OK I'm going to have to reread this subthread later, I think I'm missing the points you're making. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4137073&forum_id=2#37263193) |
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Date: November 20th, 2018 2:43 PM Author: Orange Diverse Organic Girlfriend Base This. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4137073&forum_id=2#37271298) |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 10:28 AM Author: garnet exhilarant gas station immigrant This is wrong. Midlaw loves biglaw washouts at any stage past probably 1.5 years., assuming they left voluntarily of course but biglaw hardly ever fires associates this young so that's basically 95% of them. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4137073&forum_id=2#37262533) |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 9:29 AM Author: boyish affirmative action home Most people who study the Law are not into it for the money. They are in it for the intellectual rigor and scholarship.
They are not interested primarily in the money like a common businessman or tradesman. The majesty of the Law is more than enough. |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 10:53 AM Author: Puce theatre (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4137073&forum_id=2#37262753) |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 9:35 AM Author: Chocolate bateful tanning salon The takeaway is, if you're not going to do one of the following, law school was a huge mistake:
1) Stay in biglaw for at least 8+ years so you can accumulate cash 2) Stay in biglaw for at least 8+ years and lateral to a sweet inhouse gig (as at least deputy or assistant GC) or lower-ranked firm / boutique with partnership 3) Stay in biglaw for at least 5+ years and get really fucking lucky and lateral into a sweet inhouse gig
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Date: November 19th, 2018 9:36 AM Author: umber spot athletic conference You wasted your life shuffling paperwork (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4137073&forum_id=2#37262355) |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 9:38 AM Author: Chocolate bateful tanning salon I'm still in my 30s, own a primary home, a secondary home I rent out at $5,000/month, a vacation home and lots of cool shit. This after roughly 10 years of practice.
Tell me about your life. |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 9:47 AM Author: boyish affirmative action home Typical outcome for market paying biglaw in Tuscaloosa, AL. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4137073&forum_id=2#37262373) |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 9:47 AM Author: indecent navy boiling water corner (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4137073&forum_id=2#37262375) |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 9:45 AM Author: sadistic contagious idea he suggested " why did you even do law school in the first place? "
woah cr friend |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 9:58 AM Author: alcoholic concupiscible prole temple Not everyone pays full price for law school. You can get fin aid or have rich parents, which seems pretty common. Also not everyone does NYC biglaw or wants to stay in NYC. 2 years is generally too short to get a quality in house job, but I wouldn’t dissuade those who can manage to get one around that time to stay in biglaw just for the money. In house jobs aren’t easy to get at any level and just because you wait until year 4-6 (optimal lateraling into in house imo) doesn’t mean you can successfully do it at that time.
In house prefers hiring other in house attys since biglaw experience is mostly irrelevant and so for a better in house gig that a more experienced biglaw atty wants to get, the in house atty who ditched biglaw at year 2 is more qualified to get it. Hiring ex-biglaw when in house is mostly that biglaw is a proxy for a certain type of quality candidate (typically good schools etc). |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 10:00 AM Author: Chocolate bateful tanning salon The very high prestige and high-paying inhouse jobs (like Apple, Google, KKR, etc.) hire senior associates and have informal pipelines in place at their chosen law firms.
If you're a tranny at a V10, you'd have to be retarded not to land a sweet inhouse job after year 7 or so. I recall being inundated with interview requests around that time.
If you look at the GC/AGC level at top-tier banks/corps, you'll see that many of them lateralled as partners or senior associates and few, if any, were organically raised.
Of course YMMV for General Mills Corp. or something like that that may value loyalty and period of service.
Just do a linkedin search for Senior Counsel or higher level inhouse at Google. They all have 6+ years biglaw experience. |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 10:15 AM Author: alcoholic concupiscible prole temple You don’t understand in house hiring. The senior associates/partners that do get hired are typically those who have directly worked on their matters for years and are almost always relationships hires. My friend who is a senior associate was asked by Tesla to go in house because he happens to do all the trademark work for them at a biglaw firm. They were looking to hire that person, not a senior associate specifically. My firm also hired a c-level person who was a junior partner at biglaw. He had worked on our firm’s matters for 10 years at that point. He was recruited for that position specifically. We wouldn’t want any other junior partner. So unless you can control the clients and matters you end up working for (extremely unlikely), getting your foot in the door in house at any point is more important. We would much rather hire somebody who has been doing hedge fund work at another in house job than a biglaw senior associate. That is simply because most in house jobs typically require more niche experience that your typical biglaw atty does not have.
Finally, you need to wrap your brain about the fact that there are many paths to making a ton of money. You may start off in a low paying in house job and networking can land you a better one. It’s also not just the known companies that pay well. You’ve never heard of my firm but I make more than you and work a lot less. If I had a one track mind where I thought there were only a few set paths and didn’t look for other opportunities at all times, I wouldn’t have my job today. And that’s part of the reason you’re stuck and haven’t gotten one of those coveted in house jobs. |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 10:19 AM Author: Chocolate bateful tanning salon I think you're talking past the point that I made - if you're at a V10 as a senior associate, you're working very closely with many of the top-level companies/financial institutions that you'd want to work for.
When I say I was inundated with job interview requests, it was not by some BS recruiter, but my clients. And these were high-paying positions at places like JP Morgan, Goldman Sachs, Blackrock, etc., all of whom I got to know closely because of doing dozens of deals with both their execution teams and legal.
Hell just last year I was offered a GC position at a emerging tech company that was our client, paying $600K/year + incentives and I turned it down. Of course when I was junior associate I could have interview for some BS corporate counsel position at BNY Mellon and I'd probably still be making $200K/year if I went that route lol. |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 10:53 AM Author: alcoholic concupiscible prole temple You’re looking at the “big names” as places you want to work at when I’m telling you there are hundreds maybe even thousands of jobs at no name places that are better than JPM, Goldman and blackrock in house but you don’t just get them by following a set path of attending the most prestigious schools, highest vault firm etc. $600k+ ain’t shit for GC after slaving away for 10 years at biglaw.
But even assuming you want those “prestigious” company jobs, they are opportunities available to biglaw associates (not just v10) at any level beyond year 3 or so. There’s nothing stopping a biglaw associate from leaving early and then advancing within the ranks or lateraling to even better in house in a few years. Nobody is stuck at whatever company or level they lateral in at. And there is the value of not having to work biglaw for a bunch of years that you can’t get back. Money isn’t the only consideration. |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 11:09 AM Author: Chocolate bateful tanning salon $600K (up to $1.5 or so depending on incentives) was for the one GC offer I got. The non-GC (but AGC / DGC) level positions were around $500K/year. One guy who left as a partner to go work for a client makes $10 million a year, no joke.
But then again, I have a lot of friends who left to go inhouse after 1-3 years, and none of them are doing that well and seem to have stagnated, while their companies are hiring laterals on top of them. I guess it varies case-to-case.
Anyways, I get your point, but I see no reliable or consistent way to land at any of these amazing inhouse positions that you are alluding to, outside of luck. At my V5, at least I know that I would have solid opportunities at my clients if I stuck it out. |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 11:30 AM Author: alcoholic concupiscible prole temple We are about the same graduating year and since you’ve been in NYC, you prob don’t see as many examples of people who’ve gone more unconventional routes. Lots of people got seemingly ITE pwned but some are doing quite well now. Also once you get out of NYC, jobs are less prestige obsessed.
The thing is, if you want to gun for partner, that’s one thing. If your goal is in house, then get the first good opportunity that comes along instead of waiting. You’re talking about getting $500k+ in house positions after 10 years of biglaw. There are people making $250-$300k in house after 4-5 years of biglaw. They can be or exceed $500k after the equivalent of another 4-5 years of in house experience.
And for those people, they didn’t have to give up 5 years of lives working biglaw. They can do stuff like start a family or do other things. You don’t get that time back. I’m guessing you don’t have a family since somebody who does wouldn’t talk about staying in biglaw for the money as some sort of worthy investment. |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 11:38 AM Author: Chocolate bateful tanning salon You should write a guide on how to find a good inhouse opportunity as a 3-5th year and leverage that to a 500K+ job in the next 5-10 years. It's too late for me, but it would help someone years 3-6 out. As you can imagine, I know a shitton of lawyers and few are making 500K+ as inhouse counsel outside of NYC and SF.
I said this in another thread several years ago (when I was a mid/senior associate) that my dream job was inhouse at a place like Boeing and I angled for that job and never got an interview. Maybe they only hire from Jones Day or Sidley or some shit like that. |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 11:59 AM Author: alcoholic concupiscible prole temple Boeing? Odd choice. That would pay shit. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4137073&forum_id=2#37263223) |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 12:30 PM Author: Chocolate bateful tanning salon My fascination with airplanes, rockets and missiles :P Plus they have a sick HQ building. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4137073&forum_id=2#37263479) |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 10:19 AM Author: purple bull headed address Absolutely devastating (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4137073&forum_id=2#37262500) |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 10:26 AM Author: Chocolate bateful tanning salon My point still stands:
If you're at a Vault firm, you will have much better in-house opportunities as a mid-senior associate than as a junior associate. Especially at the senior associate level, given that you are the primary client contact, you have a lot of access to legal counsel at top-tier companies and it's relatively easy to angle for a job if you're so inclined. |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 10:32 AM Author: Infuriating french chef "If you're at a Vault firm, you will have much better in-house opportunities as a mid-senior associate than as a junior associate"
Not really. The hiring is different. When my company hires for junior roles we are more flexible on actual experience. The fact is that biglaw doesn't do most of the work that in-house regularly does. So someone 2 years in who is in a related practice group and the right background and willing to learn might get an offer, whereas we would think harder before considering someone 7 years in for that role because it is a very junior role and we would see them as stuck in law firm mode. For the 7 year+ person they either a) have to be doing EXACTLY what we're hiring for, or b) we have to have worked with them personally.
Therefore, my advice to someone looking to go into in-house is to move in-house whenever you get a good offer. In-house values in-house experience more than biglaw experience. In general, if we see someone out of a law firm with no in-house experience vs. someone in-house with no law firm experience, the latter will win out unless they drool or insult us or something. |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 11:12 AM Author: Chocolate bateful tanning salon My whole point is that going from biglaw to a junior inhouse role is silly, when you could just suffer through biglaw for a few more years and jump the ladder.
I don't know why I'm having to fight to prove such an obvious point: at places like Google, literally every single senior counsel position are senior associate or higher level laterals from Biglaw.
Sure, there are thousands of companies with inhouse departments. I'm just talking about positions that are apparently obvious and easily accessible to a guy working at a top-Vault shop. Tossing out resumes to a bunch of inhouse positions as a 3rd year and hoping that you'll get promoted or network to a better job down the line is probably a much bigger "If" than waiting until you're a 6-8th year to lateral as a senior in-house counsel role at a major client. |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 11:17 AM Author: silver son of senegal Being a generic big firm associate for 6 years creates great exit opportunities with companies that hire generic big firm associates! (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4137073&forum_id=2#37262906) |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 11:30 AM Author: Infuriating french chef "My whole point is that going from biglaw to a junior inhouse role is silly, when you could just suffer through biglaw for a few more years and jump the ladder."
My point though is that it is pretty rare to "jump the ladder." We very rarely hire directly into more senior roles. We mostly promote from within. To the extent we do, we prefer people already in-house. To jump from a law firm into one of those roles is very rare. I'm in a megacorp with a huge legal department, btw. So basically, your payoff for your suffering is a significantly reduced chance of getting where you want to go. This is why you see a bunch of these people end up lateralling to ... drumroll... other firms!
If you want in-house go in-house when you get a decent in-house offer. Full stop.
"I don't know why I'm having to fight to prove such an obvious point: at places like Google, literally every single senior counsel position are senior associate or higher level laterals from Biglaw."
Let me just stop you right there. Most biglaw associates are not going to Google. Structuring your strategy based on a tiny chance at ending up at a place like Google is just stupid.
Plus, I happen to work with Google a ton. Decided to reality check you. Pulled up the person I work with the most, who is a senior counsel. Result? Lateral from another in-house tech company (a less prestigious one) and then from a local firm I've never heard of. Has never worked biglaw. Didn't go to T14. Yes, it is Google and not another Alphabet company. So your hypothesis failed at the first test case.
"Sure, there are thousands of companies with inhouse departments."
Right. So you should probably ask "hey, what maximizes getting a job I'll like at one of them so I don't end up a 7th-year associate that is fucked with no options?"
"I'm just talking about positions that are apparently obvious and easily accessible to a guy working at a top-Vault shop"
They are not "easily accessible" to them. In fact, their options may be worse than when they were a second year.
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Date: November 19th, 2018 11:48 AM Author: Chocolate bateful tanning salon Yeah I just went on linkedin and searched for "senior counsel Google" and they all had lateralled from places like Quinn, Cleary etc. Not claiming it's 100% accurate. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4137073&forum_id=2#37263128) |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 11:51 AM Author: Infuriating french chef Are you looking for M&A people? Because like I said, this is the person I actually work with. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4137073&forum_id=2#37263149) |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 11:55 AM Author: Chocolate bateful tanning salon No, I just literally googled "linkedin google senior counsel" and just looked at the profiles.
I know it's fucking tough to get a job there - bros at V5 were getting rejected from their M&A team left and right. |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 11:59 AM Author: Infuriating french chef I'm just saying, your statement that they all have that background is false. Yes, more have that background than many other companies but that is neither here nor there.
Sure. And therefore, building your strategy based on getting that is stupid. |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 12:31 PM Author: Chocolate bateful tanning salon My last V5 had a really good relationship with JPM and a bunch of other financial institutions (their M&A teams) and they would regularly contact our partners to see if any of us wanted to lateral over. Pay was solid. Quite a few opportunities at PE shops that paid more but were more demanding/competitive, but still achievable. My view may be distorted as a result. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4137073&forum_id=2#37263484) |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 2:51 PM Author: Infuriating french chef Right, again, you're still talking about a few jobs, still in M&A. I started in M&A and cannot fathom why anyone would be desperately committed to keeping that your specialization, other than "I've done this for 5-10 years and it is all I know". Of course, the entire point of leaving at year 2 is to ensure that this doesn't become you. So yeah, maybe this is the root of our disagreement. You're talking purely as someone who desperately wants to stay in M&A as you move in-house, I'm speaking for people interested in moving to in-house to get out of the giant pile of shit that is biglaw. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4137073&forum_id=2#37264364) |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 10:26 AM Author: Infuriating french chef (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4137073&forum_id=2#37262523) |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 10:08 AM Author: purple bull headed address Very aspie and navel gazing OP.
Why can’t you just acknowledge that different people want different things out of life, and that not everyone who has biglaw wants it for multiple years? Some have made the calculation that they don’t want to do that for any amount of time or got a taste of it and decided it wasn’t for them. Your whole OP is just a window into the mind of someone who can’t comprehend that anyone would live their life any differently than you have. |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 10:11 AM Author: Chocolate bateful tanning salon Getting a little defensive there tiger.
My OP is in response to the moronic ease in which people say, "you're an idiot to not just quit after 2 years and go inhouse."
Quitting biglaw before 5 years is a very serious decision that will have a detrimental impact on your finances and career outcomes in the long-term. If you just can't stand biglaw anymore and want to killself, by all means quit.
But again, my OP is in response to people who automatically default to quitting and going inhouse as not only a good decision, but the right one. |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 10:15 AM Author: purple bull headed address Nah (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4137073&forum_id=2#37262485) |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 10:15 AM Author: Infuriating french chef (Harrison Barnes)
Seriously, how could anyone not hate biglaw? The work environment, the people, sometimes the work itself and the hyperfocus on stupid and irrelevant detail, all of which is 1000x worse than in-house. QOL is awful. Biglaw is a dumb reason to go to law school for 99% of people that even get biglaw. The best outcome for that 99% will be in-house or government, with the remainder either smaller firms or dropping out entirely.
Yes, in-house starts at less but you get raises and end up living a solid UMC life, reasonable hours, manageable stress, etc. I had a scholarship to a T14, so it isn't like I can't pay my loans and pay my mortgage and lifestyle and have money left over. I don't think many people going into law school would cry if they were told they'll be making $200k+/year for a normal corporate job. |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 11:02 AM Author: Puce theatre did you strike out at oci? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4137073&forum_id=2#37262812) |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 11:16 AM Author: umber spot athletic conference (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4137073&forum_id=2#37262903) |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 11:33 AM Author: Infuriating french chef Nope, got a vault firm. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4137073&forum_id=2#37263006) |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 11:41 AM Author: Puce theatre vault 10? 20? 50? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4137073&forum_id=2#37263071) |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 11:50 AM Author: Infuriating french chef Somewhere around 50. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4137073&forum_id=2#37263144) |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 10:17 AM Author: garnet exhilarant gas station immigrant If you're not a superstudyazngunner type, then the CR path is BIGSTATE U law school on a scholly>>>midlaw in a tier 2/3 city where your starting salary>your total debt load and at a firm that promotes the majority of its associates to partner. Yes, these exist. That way you can comfortably pay it off in 6-8 years, buy a house after a few years, have kids around 30 and actually see them every night after work. Sure, I probably wouldn't have turned down HYS if I was smart enough to get it, but I'm almost 100% positive that I'm living a higher QOL and am happier now than I would have been had I taken the elite school>big law track, so I'm pretty happy I only copped a 3.8 gpa/166 LSAT, which got me a great scholarship at BIGSTATE. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4137073&forum_id=2#37262490) |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 10:20 AM Author: Chocolate bateful tanning salon Getting a job at a midlaw firm in a tier 2/3 city coming from the state flagship is anything but easy friend. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4137073&forum_id=2#37262502) |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 10:24 AM Author: Laughsome foreskin gaping not if you're a pumo (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4137073&forum_id=2#37262515) |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 10:25 AM Author: Infuriating french chef (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4137073&forum_id=2#37262519) |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 10:27 AM Author: garnet exhilarant gas station immigrant It's really not that hard. If you have local connections, get top 20% and are not aspie, it's actually really not. Especially ITE. I did it in 2010 when it was a fucking bloodbath and am on the hiring committee now and we regularly hire top 1/3 and even sometimes top 1/2 from our BIGSTATE. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4137073&forum_id=2#37262527) |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 10:29 AM Author: Chocolate bateful tanning salon So you think going to BIGSTATEU for a 20%, sometimes even 50% chance, for a lower paying job, is better than doing T14 with a 100% of a much higher paying job?
You realize if you have regional connections, you could just do T14 and go to a regional biglaw office? |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 10:37 AM Author: garnet exhilarant gas station immigrant The point is that chill guys like me would be ABSOLUTELY MISERABLE in biglaw but gunner dorks like you merely dislike it. So if you're self aware enough to realize that you'd be happier at a smaller shop, then you should 100% take the scholly at BIGSTATE rather than paying sticker at T14. Can't believe this is even being debated.
Of course this is subjective, but of my friends at BIGSTATE who went the biglaw route, my life almost uniformly beats theirs and they regularly admit this to me and tell me I've got it made. And mine is not a rare story. As much as dorks like you and Fish want to imagine that I'm a unicorn, there are bros like me all over who are happy in their jobs, are already a partner or will be soon, have great houses and get to spend mornings, nights and 100% of weekends raising their kids. The much more rare species is the dork who actually makes partner at biglaw. And even those guys have shitty QOL, failed marriages and kids who hate them. |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 10:43 AM Author: Infuriating french chef I don't think you're a unicorn. Look, if you're wedded to a place and want a job at a local firm and have a plan B in the event you're in the majority that doesn't get one of those local established law firm jobs, then more power to you and go to Big State U in-state and hopefully even on a scholarship. I remember when I was applying to law school I had the opportunity to go to the University of Minnesota for some absurdly small price between in-state and scholarship. If that's where I wanted to be forever and I really just wanted to be a "real lawyer" then that would have been a perfectly fine option. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4137073&forum_id=2#37262683) |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 10:54 AM Author: garnet exhilarant gas station immigrant (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4137073&forum_id=2#37262756) |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 11:08 AM Author: Infuriating french chef If there's anything this thread shows it is that different people have different preferences. I don't regret that I didn't do this at all. But I also recognize that this is the right path for certain people. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4137073&forum_id=2#37262855) |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 11:30 AM Author: Chocolate bateful tanning salon Agreed, some good content here all-around. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4137073&forum_id=2#37262990) |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 11:02 AM Author: silver son of senegal I should have done this (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4137073&forum_id=2#37262809) |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 11:04 AM Author: Puce theatre this is dumb. HYS dominates bigstate u. no matter what your end goal you can get there more easily from hys unless the market you're trying to work in isn't in your home state, and even then you're still probly ok (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4137073&forum_id=2#37262830) |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 11:16 AM Author: Infuriating french chef I'm going to disagree here. Sure, for elite jobs where elite people are hiring? Yeah. But most jobs aren't in that category. For those jobs, fit is much more important. Your midlaw firm in your mid-tier city would rather hire someone from local state U who they get along with than someone from HLS who they have nothing in common with.
If your goal is to be a solo or do shitlaw or whatever, HLS will give you pretty much zero benefit and if your choices are HLS at sticker or local U for free the latter is a no-brainer.
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Date: November 19th, 2018 11:32 AM Author: Chocolate bateful tanning salon I will say as someone coming from a top law school, when I applied to my home state's top firm (which is dominated by the state flagship), the chairman of the firm actually came to personally ask me to join his firm (he literally said, "what can I do to make you accept your offer?" - they had given me an offer after my first interview). And when I turned him down, he said there would always be a spot open for people like me if I wanted to lateral later and to please keep him in mind. I've heard similar stories from classmates who thought about heading back home to ARE country. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4137073&forum_id=2#37262999) |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 11:37 AM Author: Infuriating french chef Again, you're talking about the elite firm in your city. For Minneapolis, that firm was like any other large firm, with a similar environment/culture/hours. For mid-law type stuff though, many will prefer local person and local U. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4137073&forum_id=2#37263035) |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 11:39 AM Author: Chocolate bateful tanning salon It was a very local firm with 300 or so lawyers, but yeah, it was one of (if not the best) non-biglaw firm in the state. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4137073&forum_id=2#37263055) |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 11:49 AM Author: garnet exhilarant gas station immigrant No one is going to debate you that my firm would rather hire an HYS kid than a BIGSTATE. The point is that if you know you're more of a midlaw type than a biglaw one, then you should save yourself the crushing debt, especially if you're gonna be on a midlaw salary.
But, literally no other parent on your kid's soccer team that you have time to coach on the evenings and weekends is going to give a flying fuck about where you went to law school. |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 10:34 AM Author: Fiercely-loyal Tank If you're leaving biglaw as a 2nd year and have any ambition whatsoever, you need to go to another top tier career path (banking, consulting, F500 ops or biz dev) or something entrepreneurial where we have a reasonable shot at outsized financial returns, like CSLG or founder roles. In-house roles in large legal departments involve 70% of the same paper shuffling, soul crushing morass as biglaw with a much lower slope to career income ramp. The earlier you join one of these lawyer pools, the more income you miss out on. At the same time, you become more sensitive to the macro cycle and the sector-specific business cycle of your company and, as a cost center, you will be one of the first to be laid off in the downturn. The same is not necessarily true in biglaw, where only broad and sharp credit downturns result in mass layoffs, but sector-specific cycles result in a nice churn of restructuring and M&A activity for the firm. If you read this far into my bland palaver about biglaw versus corporate counsel roles, you should try to spend more time outside or in the gym, take your family on a picnic, leave the office immediately, go belch out some sinatra alone in your car, meditate, grasp desperately at and latch onto anything to remove yourself from the prison of doldrums and cruelty, like your life depends on it, because it does, it literally does, your time on this planet is short, the dimming of your brief glimmer of light may be nigh. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4137073&forum_id=2#37262592) |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 10:44 AM Author: Infuriating french chef My heart literally sank into my stomach at the last sentence... (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4137073&forum_id=2#37262689) |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 3:28 PM Author: trip forum (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4137073&forum_id=2#37264609) |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 10:52 AM Author: silver son of senegal artful switcharoo employed to devastating effect (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4137073&forum_id=2#37262745) |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 10:56 AM Author: garnet exhilarant gas station immigrant 180 reversebigwillie (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4137073&forum_id=2#37262769) |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 11:02 AM Author: milky federal bawdyhouse JFC (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4137073&forum_id=2#37262813) |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 11:08 AM Author: brilliant preventive strike (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4137073&forum_id=2#37262853) |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 11:24 AM Author: Chocolate bateful tanning salon (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4137073&forum_id=2#37262957) |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 11:26 AM Author: Greedy kitchen (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4137073&forum_id=2#37262964) |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 3:26 PM Author: primrose mexican 180, glad i slogged through the unrelatable legal career jargon for this (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4137073&forum_id=2#37264602) |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 10:56 AM Author: Demanding Ebony Puppy Water Buffalo 180 Socratic debate scholarship in here. 2Ls in CLS Fed Courts lectures are reading along and nodding as their minds expand. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4137073&forum_id=2#37262772) |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 11:40 AM Author: Chocolate bateful tanning salon Law students still read XOXO? Tell them to poast moar. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4137073&forum_id=2#37263059) |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 10:58 AM Author: Excitant alpha i quit biglaw after 3 years with nothing lined up. OP doesn't understand many people want something different out of life (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4137073&forum_id=2#37262793) |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 10:59 AM Author: umber spot athletic conference What do u do now (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4137073&forum_id=2#37262796) |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 11:04 AM Author: Excitant alpha teach lsat/gmat/gre
had no loans.
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Date: November 19th, 2018 11:16 AM Author: umber spot athletic conference Jfc (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4137073&forum_id=2#37262894) |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 11:16 AM Author: Vigorous Abusive Crackhouse Black Woman ? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4137073&forum_id=2#37262898) |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 12:07 PM Author: rusted indian lodge What’s next? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4137073&forum_id=2#37263295) |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 10:59 AM Author: silver son of senegal i do feel like going in-house is like being neutered or put out to pasture.
i shit on big law all the time but it really is a good opportunity, especially at the elite megafirms where there are billions of dollars in revenue flying around. you just have to figure out how to grab as much of that as you can or, alternatively, grab only what you want/need while putting in the least amount of effort. but no one is going to tell you how to do that or help you along the way. |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 11:07 AM Author: Puce theatre expand on your experience (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4137073&forum_id=2#37262847) |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 11:33 AM Author: wild arousing meetinghouse anyone "doing the math" never would have gone to law school, hth (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4137073&forum_id=2#37263003) |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 11:55 AM Author: garnet exhilarant gas station immigrant If your debt load was less than, say, 75K, then it makes a lot of sense actually. I was making like 35K before law school and nearly tripled that coming out in my first year, so the 3 years of opportunity cost paid off fairly quickly. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4137073&forum_id=2#37263189) |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 12:00 PM Author: Aqua hall kitty This analysis does not apply to someone who got biglaw at full or almost full scholly at a non t14 (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4137073&forum_id=2#37263229) |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 12:32 PM Author: Chocolate bateful tanning salon Obviously there are exceptions to every rule. I am just talking very generally about some guy who got at most a partial scholarship but is working in NYC biglaw. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4137073&forum_id=2#37263492) |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 12:55 PM Author: trip forum u have to look at this not only in dollars but in terms of sanity
someone who did 2 years of biglaw is * PROBABLY * still normal and may very well want to preserve that sanity by getting out while they can
someone who did 5 years of biglaw, otoh, is already nuts and might as well stay for a few more years to stack cash |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 1:28 PM Author: garnet exhilarant gas station immigrant (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4137073&forum_id=2#37263869) |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 12:58 PM Author: Excitant alpha is devrymasterscandidate Asian? sounds like one... (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4137073&forum_id=2#37263668) |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 1:28 PM Author: garnet exhilarant gas station immigrant After > 2 years in biglaw they almost all sound like this. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4137073&forum_id=2#37263871) |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 1:40 PM Author: Laughsome foreskin gaping but he is a confirmed asian (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4137073&forum_id=2#37263954) |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 2:56 PM Author: stirring university regret i left law school with 40k in loans. paid if off by third year. solo bro (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4137073&forum_id=2#37264399) |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 3:29 PM Author: Greedy kitchen biglaw has an adverse selection problem. the people who stick around past 4th year are all passive aggressive robots like OP. Unless you've already done something like banking or consulting prior to law school, nobody has any idea what they're in for people-wise. Most people, especially if they don't have loans or mormon families handcuffing them, can't put up with that shit for more than a couple years.
tl;dr: the people are far, far worse than the work or the hours in biglaw. your tone deaf OP exemplifies that. |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 3:35 PM Author: indecent navy boiling water corner (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4137073&forum_id=2#37264642) |
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Date: November 19th, 2018 5:38 PM Author: Vigorous Abusive Crackhouse Black Woman (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4137073&forum_id=2#37265261) |
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Date: November 20th, 2018 1:45 AM Author: Offensive hairy legs keepsake machete who pays $3k per month for rent as a student? jfc (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4137073&forum_id=2#37268424) |
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Date: November 20th, 2018 3:00 AM Author: Chocolate bateful tanning salon Lol if you want to be an aspire dork fine downward revise that to $2,250/month, but be sure to add in the thousands in food, drinking, socializing, utilities, clothing, dry cleaning and other shit that I excluded out of generosity. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4137073&forum_id=2#37268545) |