My own view is that religion is like a primitive form of philosophy. People need some organizing ideas/principles around which to orient their life and religion provides that. I don't hate or shit on religiousmos or think they're dumb, even though I think all the mystical/supernatural claims of religion are false and cannot be defended rationally. I also think that religions actually embody some genuine moral knowledge (e.g. regarding the value of human life) and have some respect for them on that basis.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4931659&forum_id=2#43190714)

Thoughtful people who want to live an examined life

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4931659&forum_id=2#43190850)

"You can believe strongly, as I do, in the social benefits of being a member in good standing of a religious group without accepting every fact and tenet."

But we were talking about believing in God. You said:

"Ok, do that on your own time. Believe in God, or not, in private. You can still be part of the group for the social benefits."

You seem to be treating THE BELIEF IN GOD ITSELF as being as optional a tenet as avoiding eating meat on Fridays during lent. Am I misunderstanding or are you furiously rationalizing your own questionable life choices?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4931659&forum_id=2#43190956)

I think people like you are immature and losing sight of the big picture in search of your "beliefs"

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4931659&forum_id=2#43191001)

Anyways I'm aware of the phenomenon of people affiliating with stuff that's quasi-religious or has a religious background but where they want it to be more of a cultural thing - particularly Reconstructionist Jews. If people do that *honestly* and *intentionally* and if that's what you're doing, then whatever floats your boat and godspeed. If OTOH you're living a lie in order to get some social benefits, then that's sad and you should think about that.

I don't think it's a sign of maturity to lie about yourself on an ongoing basis - as like, your LIFE - in order to get benefits from others. I think it's a sign of not really having a self or soul or being confident in your own skin as a person.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4931659&forum_id=2#43191035)

I'm saying that the situation where you're faking beliefs to get along with people should be treated as an actual problem situation that should be worked on rather than just tolerated as being an inevitable part of life

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4931659&forum_id=2#43191046)

Would I hide my agnosticism if asked directly? No.

Do I value the effort my parents undertook to pass on religious principles, as their parents did before them, and on and on going back hundreds of years? Yes.

Do I think it's wise to give that up for my own ease in my own lifetime? No.

Do I think that would be fair to my kids? No.

Do I think I'm living a lie? No, I don't. No more than I'm living a lie when I choose to work at a company that espouses dumb BLM shit, or when I chose to marry someone who isn't as affectionate as I would like but is otherwise a 180 person. Maturity is understanding that the good outweighs the bad.

Good luck in your continuing search of your beliefs. I'm sure they're meaningful!

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4931659&forum_id=2#43191116)

Quiet, ho-hum Islam minding its own business while these loud atheists are making a ruckus!

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4931659&forum_id=2#43192833)

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4931659&forum_id=2#43192953)

maybe there are valid arguments about subtleties and dogma, etc. but agnostic is irreligious.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4931659&forum_id=2#43191074)

Lmao. Just say you're Jewish. Eating lox and watching Seinfeld isn't a "religion."

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4931659&forum_id=2#43191556)

People should think for themselves rather than giving in to tribalism.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4931659&forum_id=2#43190858)

People should care about the truth rather than caring about what "No one likes". What people like be damned.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4931659&forum_id=2#43190871)

not an indictment or DUR DUR DUR you're a closet religionist blah blah blah. just an observation that people who tend to earnestly seek truth most agree on things but for the last 5% or so.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4931659&forum_id=2#43190883)

Anyways, why not?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4931659&forum_id=2#43190906)

I used to think that Aliens prove god's nonexistence because the Bible wouldn't miss something like that. But the Bible is just a series of stories written by some guys here and there, and those guys didn't see any Aliens.

I'm not exactly sure (((what))) killed people's belief in god and church attendance but it wasn't science imo.

At the same time, God's blatant nonexistence is something that's hard to ignore. It's really not that different from Santa Claus imho. 7 year olds learn of Santa's nonexistence, and when Losers turn 12 they realize god doesn't exist basically.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4931659&forum_id=2#43190772)

Seems like atheists are actually pretty curious about it as a phenomenon and come up with a lot of work on the subject.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4931659&forum_id=2#43190992)

Daniel Brou, our man, claims to love Canada, Oh Canada, and Joanne, Oh Joanne, and after his brief sojourn at the University of Toronto opts to leave for…… of all places that Trash Heap in the South, i.e. New York City. Everyone knows Sex in the City gets plotted in New York City. Daniel Brou never liked New York City. He didn’t like the noise, the traffic, the trash, the crowds. He preferred the Rust Belt that is London Ontario, and his faithful, if uncomprehending, muse, Joanne Yiokaris. He wrote many songs in Spanish to Joanne Yiokaris primarily because she didn’t speak any Spanish. Daniel Brou’s creative juices flowed best when his muses had no idea what he was talking about. He loved seeing the blank faces of his students staring back at him.

Daniel Brou worked and worked. And worked and worked. And worked and worked. Joanne, in her long-distance phone calls, never wondered why her true love didn’t stand by her side. Without question, she accepted his decision to go for the big names over the small names. Daniel wished every day he was in sunny Canada next to his true love, and then he faithfully sat in front of the computer and cranked out a few more pages of his dissertation.

Meanwhile, those brats, those pains in the ass, i.e. his students, became more demanding. Hey dood, they said, what I am, “Bologna? What nation are you living in?” Daniel Brou just ignored the masses. Let them eat cake, he thought. Daniel wished for the true, the only meaningful ones—his hometown, his alma mater, his Trueist of true loves. The Trash Heap to the South really needed to keep a lid on it.

One day Daniel Brou got close enough to dissertation completion, and his advisors did some cutting and pasting with his master’s level work. Suddenly, the interminable painful process had ended and they kicked him out the door. He hit the pavement clutching his PhD diploma. It occurred to Daniel Brou the mass market couldn’t tell the difference between him, the guy who just earned a PhD from UPenn, the guy who graduated a couple years ago from Harvard. They were all “homogenous skilled labor” who fit a particular need in the labor market. None of this was relevant to Daniel Brou because he desired the One, the True—the hometown, the alma mater, the first love.

So because he was an attractive guy and people really didn’t think critically about male economists, the Daniel Brou was returned to the place from which he came. Far far away from the Trash Heap to the South. After proving his manhood, his courage, his resiliency and his wit in the Trash Heap to the South, he returned triumphant to the One, the True, the Real.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4931659&forum_id=2#43191051)

The issue is how the fuck am I supposed to know which one is the correct one? There's a lot of options and some very very hardcore true believers who are convincing.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4931659&forum_id=2#43192803)

We had flat earth and geocentrism for a long time too.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4931659&forum_id=2#43192855)

Lots of people were raised with a religion or say "it's just a matter of faith." Okay, but lots of other people were raised with different religions or "just have faith" in other religions. So why should people believe in yours versus those other ones? And why are you confident in believing your particular religion is true when other people have religious beliefs in *different, contradictory things* on the same basis as you do?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4931659&forum_id=2#43193048)

It's just an indoctrination that occurs when you are little and are evolutionarily designed to take nothing your parents say with a grain of salt. (Those who listen to mom and dad and take what they say as gospel were more likely not to fall to their deaths, eat the poison plant, catch a cold, etc.)

The fact that there are so many religions so devoutly followed, and that the specific religion depends in large part on the religion you had growing up is evidence of this.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4931659&forum_id=2#43195645)

xo shithead are so retarded about this issue. no one believes in god these days

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4931659&forum_id=2#43192853)

ethics, afterlife, etc. all came later

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4931659&forum_id=2#43195613)

"Greek mythology is the body of myths originally told by the ancient Greeks, and a genre of Ancient Greek folklore. These stories concern the origin and nature of the world, the lives and activities of deities, heroes, and mythological creatures, and the origins and significance of the ancient Greeks' own cult and ritual practices. Modern scholars study the myths to shed light on the religious and political institutions of ancient Greece, and to better understand the nature of myth-making itself.[1]"

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4931659&forum_id=2#43200607)

But don't say it gives us our morals, as that's baloney. We already knew not to kill and not to steal and not to be jerks long before some priests figured if they offered it up as a "moral code" it would better justify their taking of the best parts in cookouts.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4931659&forum_id=2#43195653)

Even (especially?) American churchgoers.

American evangelicals are often really cruel, vicious, and meanspirited people. They display none of the fruits of the spirit. See, e.g., "Christians" who are supposed to emulate Jesus chanting "Fuck Joe Biden" and wishing harm on desperate immigrants.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4931659&forum_id=2#43200050)

We are social creatures and learn basic fairness and reasonably rational behavior. We learn it on a platform predisposed to grasp these concepts (except for pure psychopaths). Early babies recognize good behavior and bad behavior, and gravitate toward those who show good behavior.

Even dogs recognize fairness in equal snack distribution. Gorillas play fair in designed fairness games, even to their own temporary detriment, and get enraged when a player does not.

The fact that we seem to come with certain fairness behaviors pre-loaded is not evidence of God--it's evidence that we evolved in tribes.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4931659&forum_id=2#43196432)

(2) There is no "innate moral code."

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4931659&forum_id=2#43200057)

Lol what makes you think this

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4931659&forum_id=2#43196391)

Also, which version of the ten commandments do you think stopped this civilization-destroying savagery, as the bible has several.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4931659&forum_id=2#43196449)

Imagine how many unsolved murders and thefts happened before ppl had any way to prove anything. The 10 commandments weren’t invented because everyone already knew not to steal. It’s like saying the 10 commandments would’ve also included instructions on how to take a dump or how to dance.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4931659&forum_id=2#43199749)

Don't think so.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4931659&forum_id=2#43200358)

And why is stealing and killing wrong if it benefits you? Why did humans have to write it down if we innately know? We didn’t write down how to breathe or shit or dance or love or have sex.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4931659&forum_id=2#43203631)

Our ancestors who were more pious/devout had to live with a lot more mystery in their daily lives than we do now. It’s hard to imagine waking up in a world where you are seeing stuff like the sun , lightning , earthquakes, the stars , etc and not having any understanding of what those phenomena are or how they work. Now the common person has a pretty good grasp on the basic mechanics of these things, but if you probe a level or two deeper the mystery is still there. Why are there laws of physics? That’s pretty fucking weird in itself, our reality is governed by a set of arbitrary rules that just *exist.*. Also shit at the subatomic level that I don’t pretend to understand, etc. “Science” has not and arguably cannot answer these questions. To not care about the root causes of any of this or to just shrug and say “science “ is fundamentally incurious .

I know none of this stuff forces the inference that there is an omnipotent creator, although the governing principles of our existence gave rise to the sim theory stuff which is tantamount to a belief in a higher power. At some level even the redditors know atheism/“science” is totally insufficient for anything other than a very surface level understanding of our experiences.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4931659&forum_id=2#43199892)

Also in simulation theory our purpose is literally to entertain , ie serve, our creators .

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4931659&forum_id=2#43200708)

A more narrow definition of religion (vs spirituality) is that religion ascribes some form of higher purpose to human life, set in motion by either a higher intelligence or a set of immutable rules/principles that are not merely physical in nature (ie do not solely govern the behavior of matter) but require humans , as intelligent, self- conscious beings capable of reflection, to make efforts to abide by those standards and impose costs for not doing so (whether hell, or just having a bad karmic balance or whatever). The intelligence of the governing force is sort of a spectrum, with Greek pantheon on one end and eastern religions on the other.

I think atheists reject both of the above, by definition. Otherwise they are agnostic. And I can’t think of a world religion that doesn’t embrace both of the above principles though I’m far from a theology expert.

I acknowledge that at some level there is a false dichotomy between “mere” physical laws and spiritual ones. Right now, we are not aware of any law of physics that requires us to engage in certain behaviors but there are physics concepts that create questions about free will, mind body relationship, and all the above. The lines are getting blurred at the extremes. Im sticking to a conventional understanding that physics doesn’t yet explain why we experience consciousness nor does it impose any sort of ethical code on humans .

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4931659&forum_id=2#43204961)

But this is not proof of a creator because of multiverse contention. You have to say that if you are going to bring up the fundamental constants or fine-tuning argument.

It's pretty much axiomatic that either there is a creator or we live in a multiverse. There is mathematical and experimental support for the latter, not the former.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4931659&forum_id=2#43201416)