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Interesting blog discussion on enforcing exam word limits

Pretty interesting discussion; a lot more issues involved in...
Great Teacher Onizuka  12/19/06
Seems pretty straight-forward. Stop at the word limit.
..,. ..,, .., .,,,.  12/19/06
That would seem to encourage more rule breaking though.
Great Teacher Onizuka  12/19/06
1. I don't see how. 2. I don't see why that would even ...
..,. ..,, .., .,,,.  12/19/06
Well, if you know the prof will stop reading at word 250, yo...
Great Teacher Onizuka  12/19/06
"Well, if you know the prof will stop reading at word 2...
D:  12/19/06
Students don't know whether it will be strictly enforced in ...
..,. ..,, .., .,,,.  12/19/06
Students don't know whether GTO's penalty will be enforced e...
Son of the Soil  12/19/06
Well, if it's a 24 hour takehome you have a shitload of time...
Great Teacher Onizuka  12/19/06
It's not this profs job to subsidize other prof's faggotry.
D:  12/19/06
I'm not sure I understand your point here whatsoever.
Great Teacher Onizuka  12/19/06
Other profs reading after 250 words is not his concern.
D:  12/19/06
I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying here. I'm wr...
Great Teacher Onizuka  12/19/06
The proposal of take the grade and divide by the relative am...
texasLawlz  12/19/06
The stuff about not being announced in advance seems silly; ...
Great Teacher Onizuka  12/19/06
If there's no negative to them going over (from the profs st...
..,. ..,, .., .,,,.  12/19/06
Presumably it's to prevent people from going over in the fir...
Great Teacher Onizuka  12/19/06
Right, but it's not hurting this prof, it is only helping ot...
..,. ..,, .., .,,,.  12/19/06
Ok. What about the other students that broke the word limit...
texasLawlz  12/19/06
I don't see why those people shouldn't be punished also. May...
Great Teacher Onizuka  12/19/06
Well, then he has to do his own word count on every essay. ...
texasLawlz  12/19/06
If a worthwhile portion of his answer is after the word limi...
D:  12/19/06
Spoken like someone who has never taken a law school exam.
Great Teacher Onizuka  12/19/06
If the student knows this is going to happen, he can write h...
texasLawlz  12/19/06
Well, you've answered 1, but haven't answered 2. If the p...
..,. ..,, .., .,,,.  12/19/06
Wasting his time and not reading answers he should've had in...
D:  12/19/06
The problem is that he's going to have to waste his time cou...
..,. ..,, .., .,,,.  12/19/06
"That would seem to encourage more rule breaking though...
Son of the Soil  12/19/06
It's unfair to people who chose to follow the stated rules.
Great Teacher Onizuka  12/19/06
How does that hurt those that follow the rules?
..,. ..,, .., .,,,.  12/19/06
Take a position on this: There is certainty of rule enforcem...
Son of the Soil  12/19/06
People suggesting Fs need to be lynched.
D:  12/19/06
Why?
Great Teacher Onizuka  12/19/06
The punishment of not reading after 250 is harsh enough.
D:  12/19/06
wgwag
superstudyasian  12/19/06
scroll to the last comment.
I *heart* shoes  12/19/06
Heh.
Great Teacher Onizuka  12/19/06
"I would sometimes flaunt the rule." FLOUT, you...
Son of the Soil  12/19/06
Maybe he made nice pretty jewelry out of the clippings.
..,. ..,, .., .,,,.  12/19/06
http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/flaunt "2 : to treat c...
Hazelrah  12/19/06
"If you use it, however, you should be aware that many ...
Son of the Soil  12/19/06
That's not interesting at all.
:;;;;.............,.,.,.,..,,,,,,,,,,,..,.,.,.,.,.  12/19/06


Poast new message in this thread




Date: December 19th, 2006 2:23 AM
Author: Great Teacher Onizuka

Pretty interesting discussion; a lot more issues involved in this thing than I imagined.

http://prawfsblawg.blogs.com/prawfsblawg/2006/12/enforcing_word_.html

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548963&forum_id=2#7256067)




Date: December 19th, 2006 2:28 AM
Author: ..,. ..,, .., .,,,. (Here kitty, kitty, kitty.)

Seems pretty straight-forward. Stop at the word limit.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548963&forum_id=2#7256087)




Date: December 19th, 2006 2:31 AM
Author: Great Teacher Onizuka

That would seem to encourage more rule breaking though.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548963&forum_id=2#7256108)




Date: December 19th, 2006 2:32 AM
Author: ..,. ..,, .., .,,,. (Here kitty, kitty, kitty.)

1. I don't see how.

2. I don't see why that would even be a problem.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548963&forum_id=2#7256111)




Date: December 19th, 2006 2:34 AM
Author: Great Teacher Onizuka

Well, if you know the prof will stop reading at word 250, you can write a self-contained 250 word answer, and then throw in a few other paragraphs that go into the less important issues that you couldn't fit in 250 words.

If the prof enforces the word limit and stops reading at wod 250, you're no worse off than you were before.

If the prof disregards the word limit or doesn't cut off the grading exactly at word 250, you just gained a windfall.

It seems that the proper way to do it is to cut off off reading at 250 words, and in addition to that impose a penalty for not following the rules.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548963&forum_id=2#7256125)




Date: December 19th, 2006 2:36 AM
Author: D: (Hillary vs. Jeb '08)

"Well, if you know the prof will stop reading at word 250, you can write a self-contained 250 word answer, and then throw in a few other paragraphs that go into the less important issues that you couldn't fit in 250 words."

How is this beneficial? The less important issues don't get read and time wasted.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548963&forum_id=2#7256138)




Date: December 19th, 2006 2:38 AM
Author: ..,. ..,, .., .,,,. (Here kitty, kitty, kitty.)

Students don't know whether it will be strictly enforced in advance. There's no loss other than the time spent, but there is a signficant potential gain.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548963&forum_id=2#7256144)




Date: December 19th, 2006 2:54 AM
Author: Son of the Soil

Students don't know whether GTO's penalty will be enforced either. That's why GTO's argument makes so little sense. He seems to think it's ok to claim uncertainty with respect to the cut-off, but it's not ok to claim uncertainty with the imposition of a penalty.

There's abso-fucking-lutely no reaason to think that's a reasonable conclusion.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548963&forum_id=2#7256214)




Date: December 19th, 2006 2:39 AM
Author: Great Teacher Onizuka

Well, if it's a 24 hour takehome you have a shitload of time at your disposal to waste.

Also you're assuming that the prof will stop at word 250. As mentioned in the comments to that blog post, not all profs actually do that. Basically, by going over the word limit you lose nothing at worst and get a windfall at best.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548963&forum_id=2#7256149)




Date: December 19th, 2006 2:39 AM
Author: D: (Hillary vs. Jeb '08)

It's not this profs job to subsidize other prof's faggotry.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548963&forum_id=2#7256153)




Date: December 19th, 2006 2:40 AM
Author: Great Teacher Onizuka

I'm not sure I understand your point here whatsoever.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548963&forum_id=2#7256159)




Date: December 19th, 2006 2:41 AM
Author: D: (Hillary vs. Jeb '08)

Other profs reading after 250 words is not his concern.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548963&forum_id=2#7256161)




Date: December 19th, 2006 2:43 AM
Author: Great Teacher Onizuka

I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying here. I'm writing from the student's perspective, not the prof's. If the student knows the only punishment a prof will give for going over the word limit is not read the words after word #250, the student has a very strong incentive to break the rules and write an answer greater than 250 words.

Worst case scenario: student gains nothing and loses nothing, since the professor just stops reading after word 250.

Best case scenario: the prof ignores his own stated word limit, reads the whole ansewr (or reads past word 250), and the student gets a higher grade.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548963&forum_id=2#7256170)




Date: December 19th, 2006 2:46 AM
Author: texasLawlz

The proposal of take the grade and divide by the relative amount word limit was exceeded has the defect of efficient breach also. Any other penalty seems Draconian because it was not announced in advance. OH GNOES! What's the dood to do?!?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548963&forum_id=2#7256182)




Date: December 19th, 2006 2:49 AM
Author: Great Teacher Onizuka

The stuff about not being announced in advance seems silly; the guy was warned about the word limit and chose to break it anyway, so he deserves a punishment.

It seems the best thing to do is to stop reading after the word limit, and then provide an additional penalty to discourage efficient breach.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548963&forum_id=2#7256191)




Date: December 19th, 2006 2:51 AM
Author: ..,. ..,, .., .,,,. (Here kitty, kitty, kitty.)

If there's no negative to them going over (from the profs standpoint), I'm not sure why there's a need to impose a penalty.

I think this was :D's point. Not imposing a penalty doesn't hurt this particular prof, but may hurt other profs (by making their systesm unfair if they choose to count over 250).

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548963&forum_id=2#7256197)




Date: December 19th, 2006 2:52 AM
Author: Great Teacher Onizuka

Presumably it's to prevent people from going over in the first place (if they know they can't benefit from efficient breach, but would actually suffer, they won't do it).

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548963&forum_id=2#7256201)




Date: December 19th, 2006 2:53 AM
Author: ..,. ..,, .., .,,,. (Here kitty, kitty, kitty.)

Right, but it's not hurting this prof, it is only helping other profs.

See my edit.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548963&forum_id=2#7256206)




Date: December 19th, 2006 2:51 AM
Author: texasLawlz

Ok. What about the other students that broke the word limit by a significantly less egregious amount. Doesn't that just encourage simply a prudent level of cheating?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548963&forum_id=2#7256199)




Date: December 19th, 2006 2:53 AM
Author: Great Teacher Onizuka

I don't see why those people shouldn't be punished also. Maybe he could just make the punishment be a factor of the # of words went over (in addition to not grading anything past word 250).

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548963&forum_id=2#7256205)




Date: December 19th, 2006 2:54 AM
Author: texasLawlz

Well, then he has to do his own word count on every essay. Which he probably should do. Fuck. I hope my Energy Law prof doesn't do that.

Point is: he has to do a wordcount on everyone (or at least the essays that are anywhere close to the limit). If he only does a wordcount on obvious violators, that isn't fair. He's probably not going to take the time to do a wordcount on everyone.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548963&forum_id=2#7256211)




Date: December 19th, 2006 2:47 AM
Author: D: (Hillary vs. Jeb '08)

If a worthwhile portion of his answer is after the word limit, which is almost definitely, he loses points the 250 word person doesn't.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548963&forum_id=2#7256187)




Date: December 19th, 2006 2:49 AM
Author: Great Teacher Onizuka

Spoken like someone who has never taken a law school exam.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548963&forum_id=2#7256193)




Date: December 19th, 2006 2:49 AM
Author: texasLawlz

If the student knows this is going to happen, he can write his full 250 words answer. Then, during hours 13 and 14 when he's run out of creative steam, he raise the flag on all his BS answers and see if anyone salutes.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548963&forum_id=2#7256194)




Date: December 19th, 2006 2:37 AM
Author: ..,. ..,, .., .,,,. (Here kitty, kitty, kitty.)

Well, you've answered 1, but haven't answered 2.

If the prof cuts off at 250, no harm no foul, unless you consider having the prof count words a harm. I assume this would be a problem regardless, though.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548963&forum_id=2#7256142)




Date: December 19th, 2006 2:38 AM
Author: D: (Hillary vs. Jeb '08)

Wasting his time and not reading answers he should've had inside of 250 words is punishment enough, geez.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548963&forum_id=2#7256146)




Date: December 19th, 2006 2:39 AM
Author: ..,. ..,, .., .,,,. (Here kitty, kitty, kitty.)

The problem is that he's going to have to waste his time counting to 250 as it is, regardless of whether they go over.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548963&forum_id=2#7256151)




Date: December 19th, 2006 2:52 AM
Author: Son of the Soil

"That would seem to encourage more rule breaking though."

Who cares? They can waste all the time they want.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548963&forum_id=2#7256203)




Date: December 19th, 2006 2:53 AM
Author: Great Teacher Onizuka

It's unfair to people who chose to follow the stated rules.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548963&forum_id=2#7256207)




Date: December 19th, 2006 2:55 AM
Author: ..,. ..,, .., .,,,. (Here kitty, kitty, kitty.)

How does that hurt those that follow the rules?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548963&forum_id=2#7256217)




Date: December 19th, 2006 2:59 AM
Author: Son of the Soil

Take a position on this: There is certainty of rule enforcement (penalty or not).



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548963&forum_id=2#7256230)




Date: December 19th, 2006 2:29 AM
Author: D: (Hillary vs. Jeb '08)

People suggesting Fs need to be lynched.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548963&forum_id=2#7256094)




Date: December 19th, 2006 2:30 AM
Author: Great Teacher Onizuka

Why?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548963&forum_id=2#7256107)




Date: December 19th, 2006 2:35 AM
Author: D: (Hillary vs. Jeb '08)

The punishment of not reading after 250 is harsh enough.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548963&forum_id=2#7256131)




Date: December 19th, 2006 2:25 AM
Author: superstudyasian

wgwag

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548963&forum_id=2#7256072)




Date: December 19th, 2006 2:35 AM
Author: I *heart* shoes

scroll to the last comment.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548963&forum_id=2#7256133)




Date: December 19th, 2006 2:40 AM
Author: Great Teacher Onizuka

Heh.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548963&forum_id=2#7256154)




Date: December 19th, 2006 2:45 AM
Author: Son of the Soil

"I would sometimes flaunt the rule."

FLOUT, you fucking retard.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548963&forum_id=2#7256176)




Date: December 19th, 2006 2:46 AM
Author: ..,. ..,, .., .,,,. (Here kitty, kitty, kitty.)

Maybe he made nice pretty jewelry out of the clippings.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548963&forum_id=2#7256179)




Date: December 19th, 2006 2:48 AM
Author: Hazelrah (http://xoxoreader.blogspot.com/)

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/flaunt

"2 : to treat contemptuously <flaunted the rules -- Louis Untermeyer>"

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548963&forum_id=2#7256189)




Date: December 19th, 2006 2:51 AM
Author: Son of the Soil

"If you use it, however, you should be aware that many people will consider it a mistake."

Damn straight.

http://www.answers.com/flaunt&r=67

Usage Problem. To show contempt for; scorn.

...This usage is still widely seen as erroneous and is best avoided.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548963&forum_id=2#7256198)




Date: December 19th, 2006 2:54 AM
Author: :;;;;.............,.,.,.,..,,,,,,,,,,,..,.,.,.,.,.

That's not interesting at all.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548963&forum_id=2#7256213)