The most prestigious law school admissions discussion board in the world.
|
 |
 
|
Just got on TRT, feels like a cheat code for IRL
Poast new message in this thread
Date: December 21st, 2023 9:42 AM Author: drunken blathering chad range I’ll probably die sooner but in the meantime holy shit this stuff is amazing (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2).#47196763) |
Date: December 21st, 2023 9:43 AM Author: spectacular property cuck Describe the effects (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2).#47196766) |
 |
Date: December 21st, 2023 9:56 AM Author: drunken blathering chad range https://wallpaper.dog/large/20379828.jpg (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2).#47196803) |
|
Date: December 21st, 2023 10:41 AM Author: Magical Becky 180 (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2).#47197006) |
|
Date: December 21st, 2023 9:57 AM Author: Disrespectful stag film mexican I think that’s very unhealthy friend especially if you’re at 200/wk. also the results will likely normalize in a few months and won’t feel as great (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2).#47196805) |
|
Date: December 21st, 2023 10:00 AM Author: Swollen Histrionic Sanctuary Better to burn twice as bright and half as long friend (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2).#47196810) |
|
Date: December 21st, 2023 10:03 AM Author: drunken blathering chad range (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2).#47196825) |
|
Date: December 21st, 2023 10:13 AM Author: spectacular property cuck (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2).#47196880) |
|
Date: December 21st, 2023 3:35 PM Author: Bipolar address (chill, fratty Nexus-6™ android) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2).#47198557) |
|
Date: December 21st, 2023 10:16 AM Author: sable dead internal respiration mad cow disease do you want to have kids in the future (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2).#47196895) |
|
Date: December 21st, 2023 10:47 AM Author: drunken blathering chad range No I’m done having kids. If this makes it harder for me to get my wife pregnant then that’s a 180 bonus. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2).#47197023) |
|
Date: December 21st, 2023 11:52 AM Author: sable dead internal respiration mad cow disease DESCRIBE the physical effects. horny and crushing your gym lifts? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2).#47197359) |
|
Date: December 21st, 2023 12:11 PM Author: drunken blathering chad range Sex drive is reinvigorated. I barely have to even work out now since even a moderate amount of exercise puts me in great shape (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2).#47197462) |
|
Date: December 21st, 2023 3:17 PM Author: sable dead internal respiration mad cow disease sounds like the dream, brother (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2).#47198478) |
|
Date: December 21st, 2023 3:42 PM Author: drunken blathering chad range he’ll ya (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2).#47198587) |
|
Date: December 21st, 2023 10:30 AM Author: abnormal light school idea he suggested is trt always w/ injections, or are their non-needle options? there are some ripped boomers at my gym that have to be gear'd up (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2).#47196952) |
|
Date: December 21st, 2023 10:43 AM Author: cobalt locale death wish Pills and gels. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2).#47197016) |
|
Date: December 21st, 2023 3:37 PM Author: sienna tripping prole Lame. Either you have it or you don't. Don't cheat. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2).#47198571) |
|
Date: December 21st, 2023 3:43 PM Author: drunken blathering chad range Sorry I don’t have your natural t levels. I was basically the same throughout my 20s and 30s then right when I hit 40 all kinds of weird stuff started happening and I suddenly felt like an old man (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2).#47198593) |
|
Date: December 21st, 2023 3:46 PM Author: Ultramarine gay wizard market I should do this, huh? Does it mess up you're sperms? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2).#47198601) |
|
Date: December 21st, 2023 3:48 PM Author: drunken blathering chad range idk only been on it a week. I assume it will shorten my life span. if I can get 15 good years out of it though I think it will have been worth it (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2).#47198612) |
|
Date: December 22nd, 2023 3:24 AM Author: Greedy tanning salon lulzy thread (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2).#47200557) |
|
Date: December 22nd, 2023 3:29 AM Author: Submissive Irate Famous Landscape Painting LOL IRATE GOOK DETECTED (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2).#47200563) |
|
Date: December 23rd, 2023 11:55 PM Author: Greedy tanning salon the first poster in xoxo history to provide a full write-up of a TRT cycle, actually:
https://xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=4979749&mc=60&forum_id=2 |
|
Date: December 22nd, 2023 7:05 AM Author: Diverse vengeful digit ratio set I have a source for this.
What are the real negatives?
Does your body stop producing T normally and do o have to do trt forever now? |
|
Date: December 22nd, 2023 9:15 AM Author: abnormal light school idea he suggested your t levels go down with time. no need for a 'source', i think there are tons of these men's / anti-aging clinics everywhere that just do some bloodwork and get you prescribed (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2).#47201396) |
|
Date: December 22nd, 2023 9:19 AM Author: Diverse vengeful digit ratio set ok but to the question... if you do trt, is it something that you need to keep doing forever?
does it reduce the natural t your body produces, pwning you if you ever stop? |
|
Date: December 22nd, 2023 12:56 PM Author: sable dead internal respiration mad cow disease (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2).#47202200) |
|
Date: December 22nd, 2023 2:34 PM Author: aphrodisiac gaped senate idiot Upon starting trt, You will stop endogenous production much more quickly than it will resume if/when you stop trt, and that transition period is an extreme challenge. There is a guy on YouTube named Merijn who stopped TRT and is working through restoring natural production. Derek MPMD mentioned to Zack Telander that he will consider stopping exogenous T in the future. So restoration is not impossible. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2).#47202643) |
|
Date: December 22nd, 2023 2:49 PM Author: autistic bespoke preventive strike Great! I get to enter enslavement to Big Pharm for the rest of my gd life, forever seeking Rxs at Walgreens, or I will grow tits, lose my balls, and live as a shell of a person, a castrated person until I die!
Well… sign me up |
|
Date: December 25th, 2023 12:05 AM Author: fighting beady-eyed scourge upon the earth university Aren't you goy? If so that's basically your purpose in this economy/"life". (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2).#47210648) |
|
Date: December 22nd, 2023 11:30 AM Author: Swollen Histrionic Sanctuary Real negative is that the exogenous T causes your heart to start growing in weird ways and you get a heart attack (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2).#47201834) |
|
Date: December 22nd, 2023 1:45 PM Author: Magical Becky Only at massive doses, and good cardio / diet / supplementation (vitamin K2, etc. -- fleshlight tp has some 180 knowledge on this) makes the risk negligible against literally indescribably high upside (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2).#47202375) |
|
Date: December 22nd, 2023 1:47 PM Author: Swollen Histrionic Sanctuary Vitamin k2 isn't going to stop cardiomegaly lol. The threshold for heart growth to start causing problems is very low. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2).#47202388) |
|
Date: December 22nd, 2023 1:53 PM Author: Magical Becky No, the rest of it (mostly cardio) will ameliorate that, and while the threshold for growth to cause problems is relatively low, the threshold of test for it to start growing abnormally is actually quite high. As long as your levels aren't exceeding like 2000 ng/dL you should be good.
The K2 is so your arteries don't harden as a result of cholesterol |
|
Date: December 22nd, 2023 2:20 PM Author: Swollen Histrionic Sanctuary There is no evidence for any of the ameliorative stuff, which is well studied. None of it used clinically to manage disease. LJL at citing fleshlight as an authority on anything except pretending not to be korean. There is very good evidence that heart tissue has preferential response to androgens at any dose which is why cardio training works so quickly (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2).#47202551) |
|
Date: December 22nd, 2023 2:25 PM Author: cheese-eating church therapy If T is kept at physiologic levels, why would we expect these impacts? Have heard no such concerns from Peter Attia, who is usually hyper focused on long term risks. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2).#47202590) |
|
Date: December 22nd, 2023 2:30 PM Author: Swollen Histrionic Sanctuary You're throwing a phat bolus of t into your bloodstream and all the receptors in your heart get the first cut at it, instead of a lifetime of t secretion from your own cells to a level which your body has very gradually acclimated (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2).#47202618) |
|
Date: December 22nd, 2023 2:55 PM Author: cheese-eating church therapy I’m injecting sub Q 3x a week. Levels should be pretty constant and similar to where my levels were 10-15 years ago. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2).#47202728) |
|
Date: December 22nd, 2023 4:16 PM Author: Magical Becky Lmao only applicable to test prop, which I agree has more risks than cyp or something else (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2).#47202993) |
|
Date: December 22nd, 2023 2:45 PM Author: sable dead internal respiration mad cow disease is Peter Attia personally taking exogenous T? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2).#47202698) |
|
Date: December 22nd, 2023 3:23 PM Author: cheese-eating church therapy Not yet, but he is supervising patients and has said that the only thing holding him back is inconvenience of injecting multiple times a week. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2).#47202816) |
|
Date: December 22nd, 2023 4:29 PM Author: Magical Becky There's absolutely evidence lmao.
1. Difference in enlarged hearts as an adaptation in endurance athletes, rather than pathological hypertrophic cardiomegaly, is that the heart develops vasculature proportionally as it enlarges in response to exercise. This vasculature doesn't develop when the heart is enlarged exclusively in response to androgens, likely because angiogenesis isn't stimulated without sustained cardiovascular load.
2. Pathological cardiomegaly results in lowers contractility, meaning the heart has to work harder, at a heavier weight, to pump the same blood.
3. With already developed vasculature and continuing cardio load/stimulation, the heart isn't likely to lose contractility. In other words, as long as there's high oxygen demand to stimulate angiogenesis, the heart's preference for androgens won't cause pathological growth because the growth will be accompanied by vasculature.
Bottom line: if you're in good cardio shape and jump on test at reasonable levels, you have nothing to worry about as long as you keep running; if you want to jump on but you're worried about heart problems, get in good cardio shape first and then keep at it once you jump on. |
|
Date: December 23rd, 2023 8:02 PM Author: Swollen Histrionic Sanctuary Dude you've gone from "juice doesn't make your heart grow" to "juice makes it grow but its ok because you can go jogging" (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2).#47207228) |
|
Date: December 23rd, 2023 11:24 PM Author: Magical Becky 1. No, my position the entire time.has been that the risks are low, pathological growth is pretty rare without insane doses, and cardio ameliorates that anyway. You said there was no evidence for that and I gaped you.
2. Wanna try to discuss the physiology of it or are you gonna stick with "muh heart attack" without engaging with the question at all? This shit is not hard to understand, maybe look at the data. |
|
Date: December 24th, 2023 5:14 PM Author: Swollen Histrionic Sanctuary Your argument makes no sense. You are talking about how doing cardio doesn't hurt the heart because it vascularizes to match the growth induced by cardio. So how can cardio produce extra vascularization to match the androgen-induced growth?
Also keep in mind that when you talk about heart enlargement etc the hazard typically eventuates during crises and not every day life. So ppl can walk around ok 99% on juice but when they get cytomegalovirus or something else that would be survivable they have no risk ceiling because their heart is already plumped up |
|
Date: December 25th, 2023 12:02 AM Author: Magical Becky Because size is the limiting factor for angiogenesis, assuming cardio stimulus is present, so the vasculature will keep up.
Would love to hear how enlarged heart increases risk of CMV death lmao; the actual issues with an enlarged heart are primarily arrhythmia and lost of contractility in the left ventricle, leading to heart failure. Cardiomegaly doesn't cause either, it simply exacerbates them because the heart has to work harder, and it usually is only concerning to cardiologists as an indication of underlying problems.
Again, guys with healthy hearts and good cardio have nothing to worry about. |
|
Date: December 25th, 2023 12:27 PM Author: sable dead internal respiration mad cow disease as someone who would consider TRT, i want to believe this. but aren't you taking a huge leap in #3? if androgens cause new heart growth, there is no reason to think that existing healthy athletic vasculature would save you from the pathological growth from TRT (which growth occurs without accompanying healthy vasculature) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2).#47211512) |
|
Date: December 22nd, 2023 2:31 PM Author: Bronze Slippery Patrolman Add nattokinase (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2).#47202626) |
|
Date: December 22nd, 2023 1:48 PM Author: Swollen Histrionic Sanctuary TRT also turns you into a fag and at the least you will become obsessed with fucking trannies. You will have female mood swings and become suicidal - veterans blame TBI for this but it's the juice (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2).#47202397) |
|
Date: December 24th, 2023 10:01 AM Author: Startling flesh heaven fanboi He's already a poaster (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2).#47208457) |
|
Date: January 6th, 2026 2:37 AM Author: narrow-minded topaz legend juggernaut This sounds 180 (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2).#49565935) |
|
Date: December 22nd, 2023 2:10 PM Author: cheese-eating church therapy I started in August and feel great. 120/week + HCG. Goal is to stay at high physiologic levels.
Went from being tired everyday with poor sleep to being pretty much filled with energy all the time. At same time, progress in weight training accelerated meaningfully. |
|
Date: December 23rd, 2023 12:56 PM Author: ebony self-absorbed shrine Where are you getting the HCG? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2).#47205920) |
|
Date: December 22nd, 2023 2:32 PM Author: aphrodisiac gaped senate idiot Emphasis on "cheat." Enjoy while it lasts (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2).#47202630) |
|
Date: December 22nd, 2023 2:39 PM Author: Swollen Histrionic Sanctuary (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2).#47202673) |
|
Date: December 22nd, 2023 2:46 PM Author: sable dead internal respiration mad cow disease did you do it? it stopped working after a while? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2).#47202701) |
|
Date: December 23rd, 2023 8:15 AM Author: aphrodisiac gaped senate idiot I did not do it but I lived with crashed T for ~18 months after my deployment and my doctor and I discussed it as an option and I did some research (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2).#47205197) |
|
Date: December 23rd, 2023 10:29 AM Author: sable dead internal respiration mad cow disease ty. and yours came back naturally? did you take any otc supplements or do anything different to encourage it (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2).#47205440) |
|
Date: December 23rd, 2023 12:17 PM Author: aphrodisiac gaped senate idiot It has recovered to healthy levels but not to previous levels. Ashwaghanda seems to make a difference for me. I did not notice a difference with tongkat Ali or fadogia agrestis (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2).#47205761) |
|
Date: December 23rd, 2023 12:56 PM Author: sable dead internal respiration mad cow disease ty (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2).#47205921) |
|
Date: December 23rd, 2023 11:40 AM Author: Magical Becky TRT is 180 for olds and there's no reason not to. I'm going to hop on the second my bloodwork shows my levels are irrecoverably dying, and you should too. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2).#47205675) |
|
Date: December 23rd, 2023 11:43 AM Author: Wild Ticket Booth Turdskin No reason not to do it other than increased risk of heart attack and stroke. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2).#47205679) |
|
Date: December 23rd, 2023 1:15 PM Author: Magical Becky Only if you're in terrible cardio shape in the first place; those are a result of pathological cardiomegaly. See http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2#47203029 for a basic explanation, and https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0735109706018080 for an actual one. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2).#47206005) |
|
Date: December 23rd, 2023 11:57 AM Author: laughsome gunner generalized bond I need to do this. My wife will be dead in a week though. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2).#47205705) |
|
Date: December 23rd, 2023 12:03 PM Author: aquamarine vigorous lodge How many pull-ups can you do? I take finasteride and will reconsider if I can no longer do 15 (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2).#47205718) |
|
Date: December 23rd, 2023 1:16 PM Author: Magical Becky 36 without any TRT, will probably be at 50 before I jump on in 10 years
Get your blood work done, hop on if your levels are low. |
|
Date: December 23rd, 2023 1:19 PM Author: Magical Becky Fats, skinnyfats, and do-nothings who can't run five miles are itt whinging about "heart problems" when their current sedentary lifestyles and garbage diets are much more of a threat to their cardiovascular health or longevity than test ever would be, even at supernatural doses. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2).#47206022) |
|
Date: December 24th, 2023 5:25 AM Author: apoplectic fragrant resort kitty (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2).#47208233) |
|
Date: December 23rd, 2023 8:14 PM Author: marvelous halford Anyone who is contemplating TRT and isn’t 50+ (at which point, why not) should take 6 months and see if this cocktail boosts your levels:
Ashwaghanda
Tongkat Ali
D3
Zinc
Boron
Shilajit
Creatine (doesn’t boost your T but better workouts will help you get there)
|
|
Date: December 23rd, 2023 8:14 PM Author: Racy Deranged Feces been on for 10 plus years. seems fine overall. didn't know I was low t but was out of shape... doctor said won't hurt. now work out 5-6 days a week and have tons of energy. best part is you can get in amazing shape, esp compared to the average person your age. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2).#47207261) |
|
Date: December 23rd, 2023 11:26 PM Author: Magical Becky (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2).#47207849) |
|
Date: December 23rd, 2023 11:36 PM Author: jet library Can you do this with creams only?
I tried but gave up after a few weeks because I hate hate hate injecting myself |
|
Date: December 24th, 2023 5:42 AM Author: cerise hot kitty cat community account how do you avoid the joe rogan/alex jones effect where your skull balloons out like a melon? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2).#47208237) |
|
Date: December 24th, 2023 9:46 AM Author: sable dead internal respiration mad cow disease i'm not an expert at all, but i thought this effect (see also barry bonds) was from HGH (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2).#47208433) |
|
Date: December 25th, 2023 1:23 AM Author: Wild Ticket Booth Turdskin lol @ testmos convincing themselves that they won’t die early. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2).#47210709) |
|
Date: December 25th, 2023 7:05 AM Author: Magical Becky Hey, I noticed you didn't have any response here: http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2#47206005
|
|
Date: December 25th, 2023 9:43 AM Author: Orange step-uncle's house I'd suggest correcting the lifestyle factors that are lowering your T before going to TRT because not correcting the lifestyle factors will ultimately hurt you in the long run, and the long term effects of TRT are generally not known. In addition, you do have to remain on it for life if you start.
People in the US have an extremely weird skewed view of what is "normal" for male aging. A lot of it has to do with the SAD diet and other lifestyle factors common in the US that completely decimate your health and body, including your T levels. People wrongly tend to blame "aging," but really it is about health. Low T before the age of 65-70 is often a sign that you need to make a change to your diet and lifestyle. |
|
Date: December 25th, 2023 10:18 AM Author: Magical Becky You don't actually need to stay on it for life if you don't want -- you can just taper off and then PCT with something like enclomiphene for two weeks, and you're back where you started.
Absolutely MFCR on lifestyle and diet. |
|
Date: December 25th, 2023 1:41 PM Author: sable dead internal respiration mad cow disease can you get enclomiphene from a licensed usa doctor/clinic, or is it a black market thing? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2).#47211691) |
|
Date: December 25th, 2023 4:16 PM Author: Startling flesh heaven fanboi You can get it from a us doc. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2).#47211992) |
|
Date: December 25th, 2023 6:43 PM Author: sable dead internal respiration mad cow disease ty (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2).#47212318) |
|
Date: December 25th, 2023 6:20 PM Author: Bronze Slippery Patrolman Unfortunately if you’ve be been on TRT for a few years it will take well more than 2 weeks of enclomiphene and even a couple months at least of hcg amd hmg (very $$$) if you want to fully have functional and sperm producing balls with stable LH/FSH
I know this from irl experience with others, personally testing it and reading tons of publications on it - also enclomiphene is potentially carcinogenic like clomid long term and really elevates estrogen way more that they thought
Not shitting on your poast and yes enclomiphene is way more chill than suicide inducing clomid for pct it’s not a super chill easy process if you’ve been on it long term (1+ yr) and want to reset. It takes a while for LH FSH receptors to stabilize again after suppression they’re finding and the retards here thinking of getting on Trt Might think it’s just a simple chill process when they might be looking at months and tens of thousands in HMG injections to get back to previous normal
|
|
Date: December 25th, 2023 6:33 PM Author: Magical Becky 180 poast, tyft
My impression was based on the experience of two guys I know from the gym, one 40s and one 50s. Both said the returned to baseline inside a month, but I never saw their bloodwork so I'm going to assume they were probably wrong. |
|
Date: December 25th, 2023 6:43 PM Author: sable dead internal respiration mad cow disease (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5463677&forum_id=2).#47212319) |