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Do people think Spics will assimilate like previous immigrants?
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Date: January 21st, 2007 8:57 PM Author: cheese-eating nursing home goal in life This has really been bothering me for a long time. If you've seen my previous posts, you know that i don't like mexican's (but don't mind cubans too much).
in the past, immigrants (including my family) would come and want to be american. in fact, my great grandparents refused to teach my grandparents their native language so that my grandparents would speak english and be perfectly american.
today, however, i see spics wearing the mexican flag, refusing to learn english, and refusing to consider themselves american. in fact, the us world cup team can't even play in the la stadium without being boo'ed.
tell me my fears are misplaces and spics (especially the vile aztec-mexicans) will assimilate like other immigrant groups. |
Date: January 21st, 2007 9:03 PM Author: cheese-eating nursing home goal in life mexicans are taking over our country like the visigoths took over rome and no one gives a shit? this country is in trouble. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567655&forum_id=2#7463947) |
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Date: January 21st, 2007 9:05 PM Author: cerise box office associate subtle cuban trolling. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567655&forum_id=2#7463960) |
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Date: January 21st, 2007 9:07 PM Author: cheese-eating nursing home goal in life fuck them i don't care. at least they imported doctors and engineers when they came over. there's not 1+ mill cubans invading this country every year. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567655&forum_id=2#7463973) |
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Date: January 21st, 2007 9:07 PM Author: Charismatic rose field ape sure the spics will: they're christian. I'm worried about the waves of soviet jews, muslims, hindus, and sikhs. |
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Date: January 21st, 2007 9:10 PM Author: cheese-eating nursing home goal in life i definitely hear what you're saying. soviet jews are among the most miserable people in the world.
that having been said, i don't distinguish between the "christian" mexicans and these other groups, because mexican xtianity is culturally and symbollicy quite different than mainline protestantism and secularized catholicism.
also, there are 1+ million mexicans invading our country every year, so they don't have to assimilate while these other groups must assimilate out of necessity...you can't go around la just speaking urdu or russian, but you can do that with spanish. |
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Date: January 21st, 2007 10:25 PM Author: cheese-eating nursing home goal in life http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5871651411393887069
this is a long (15 mins) but AMAZINGLY interesting video from an environmental group about the problems of illegal immigration. |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 12:28 AM Author: swollen keepsake machete Hispanics will assimilate, many of them already have. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567655&forum_id=2#7465151) |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 12:30 AM Author: cheese-eating nursing home goal in life thanks for the response. i'm not trying to flaim or be argumentative, so convince me that i am wrong, and i will sleep better.
today, i see people holding the mexican flag and identifying as mexicans/salvadorans/et al. this was not common for previous immigrant groups, at least not my family, which is from all over south and eastern europe. this latest wave/invasion seems completely different that previous immigrant waves, and this concerns me. |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 12:32 AM Author: cerise box office associate Irish/Italians still wave their flags nonstop. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567655&forum_id=2#7465173) |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 12:37 AM Author: cheese-eating nursing home goal in life i honestly don't see this. there are a lot of guidos in nyc/jersey, but i don't see italian flags hanging outside their houses. nor do i see them sending billions to the "old country." even so, do you dispute the fact that when they came over 100 years ago, they had a different attittude than many illegals today? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567655&forum_id=2#7465207) |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 12:40 AM Author: Khaki stag film Where are you getting this "fact?" (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567655&forum_id=2#7465228) |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 12:41 AM Author: cheese-eating nursing home goal in life making conversation--from what my grandparents tell me and from the little i learned in civics lessons and history class. feel free to correct me in a non-douchy manner, as this is why i started the thread. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567655&forum_id=2#7465235) |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 12:43 AM Author: cerise box office associate grandparents always romanticize their own time, no one had sex and there was no violence back then if you believe everything your grandparents tell you. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567655&forum_id=2#7465242) |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 12:44 AM Author: cheese-eating nursing home goal in life that's very different than saying "our parents refused to teach us their native language because they wanted their children growing up as americans." that's not romanticizing it, and the proof is that my grandparents do not speak the language that my great grandparents spoke. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567655&forum_id=2#7465248) |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 12:49 AM Author: Khaki stag film The problem with this account is that it's anecdotal. Surely some Mexican immigrants encourage their children to speak English, and some Italian (or whatever) immigrants didn't.
Another problem is that Italian immigrants obviously did integrate, so any historical narrative is shaped by that. Since Mexican immigration is still occurring, it's much easier to construct a compelling narrative in which Mexicans do not integrate. This doesn't mean they won't, or that they're fundamentally any different than any other group of immigrants. It merely means our perception of Mexican immigration isn't colored by hindsight that tells us everything worked out in the end. |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 12:49 AM Author: Plum patrolman good point (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567655&forum_id=2#7465279) |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 12:56 AM Author: cheese-eating nursing home goal in life fair enough. let's conjecture for a moment...do you think there were as many italians chanting--in italian--that new jersey and new york were part of magna roma or greater italy, like la raza and mecha do today about atzlan? can't we at least compare and contrast the italians and the mexicans, and only then can we argue if those differences are meaningful. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567655&forum_id=2#7465329) |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 1:03 AM Author: Khaki stag film Well, New York and New Jersey weren't ever a part of Italy, so that wouldn't have made any sense. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567655&forum_id=2#7465373) |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 1:06 AM Author: cheese-eating nursing home goal in life atlanta, dc, nyc were never part of the aztec empire either. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567655&forum_id=2#7465404) |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 1:14 AM Author: Khaki stag film Even kooky sources I'm finding aren't putting those cities in "Atzlan."
Anyway, it doesn't matter. Hispanic immigrants are rejected and despised by a great many native-born Americans, so it's only natural that they would band together for support.
If people are really concerned about Hispanic immigrants not integrating, they should embrace them instead of ostracizing them! Of course, the people concerned about "integration" have no actual desire for Hispanic immigrants to integrate, and the entire issue is a red herring.
They're simply racist, as far as I can tell. |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 1:21 AM Author: cheese-eating nursing home goal in life "They're simply racist, as far as I can tell."
well, cubans hate mexicans as well. i don't think this is a "Race" issue, so much as a cultural issue. i'm trying to be open-minded, but you seem to revert to calling everyone who disagrees with illegal immigration as "racist." that's ridiculous.
i will embrace an illegal immigrant when he goes back and enters this country legally.
alternatively, i will embrace an illegal when he waives an american flag and stops booing the mother fucking american soccer team in la. shit like that pisses off most americans-native or not. |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 1:23 AM Author: Khaki stag film I doubt it. You said yourself that you don't like Mexicans, and your bias warps everything you say. It may not be obvious to you, but it's obvious to everyone else. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567655&forum_id=2#7465506) |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 1:26 AM Author: cheese-eating nursing home goal in life let me make clear: i dislike illegal immigrants. i don't give a flying fuck if they're from mexico or canada. i would feel the same way about a canuck waiving the canuck flag in dc.
and it's not obvious to everyone else, otherwise all my cuban friends would fucking agree with me.
are you mexican by the way? if so, perhaps that warps everything you say and makes you more defensive then you need to be. |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 1:28 AM Author: Khaki stag film Nope. I'm 100% anglo. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567655&forum_id=2#7465534) |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 1:32 AM Author: cheese-eating nursing home goal in life anglos suck too. you really fucked over the irish through out your history, didn't you. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567655&forum_id=2#7465562) |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 8:01 AM Author: comical confused volcanic crater kitty cat I got caught in one of the latino marches last year north of atlanta. alot of mexicans were waiving the american flag. I was shocked. Since then, Ive noticed it alot more. perhaps because i am looking. anyhow, the march had a really positive mood. i felt welcome there despite being black. alot of them went out of there way to smile and waive. plenty did not speak english, but i think they just want what every american wants.
that said, I have huge problems with illegal immigration. our infrastructure cant handle it. anytime heart surgery patients are denied hospital rooms because of a lack of space, in part due to the unmonitered, and therefore unprepared for influx of illegal immigrants, it is a problem. I think the children of illegals should not be citizens. And if they get caught trying to use social services they should be deported. |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 12:45 AM Author: Khaki stag film My impression is that each historical wave of immigration has been viewed as intractable when it occurred.
Anyway, you're comparing what your grandparents (immigrants themselves) say about their own attitudes with prevailing negative stereotypes about today's immigrants. I don't think it's a fair comparison.
To actually compare the two groups, you'd have to have access to opinion polls administered at the time the wave of Italian immigration was happening.
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 12:53 AM Author: cheese-eating nursing home goal in life first, prior to 1965, immigration was at 170,000 per year. today, immigration--including illegals--is over one million. this is a very different situation than it was in the past.
second, i wasn't offering my grandparents' views on immigration. i was stating a fact that their parents refused to teach them their native language. my great grandparents also refused to go on welfare/state aid. my gut feeling tells me that my great grandparents weren't so unique over the language and welfare issues. if their story is true--and i have no reason to doubt it--this is a profound difference with today's immigrant groups and says a lot about the possibility of assimilation. |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 12:56 AM Author: crusty magenta fortuitous meteor institution "first, prior to 1965, immigration was at 170,000 per year. today, immigration--including illegals--is over one million. this is a very different situation than it was in the past."
If you look at the volume of immigration as a percentage of the total domestic population, past levels have been higher. |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 12:57 AM Author: cheese-eating nursing home goal in life fair point. what about my second? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567655&forum_id=2#7465334) |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 12:58 AM Author: crusty magenta fortuitous meteor institution I don't know what you're talking about there. But I didn't read what happened earlier in the thread. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567655&forum_id=2#7465346) |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 2:13 AM Author: frozen goyim you're right. you don't know what you're talking about: http://www.xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=567655&mc=115&forum_id=2#7465759 (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567655&forum_id=2#7465768) |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 12:59 AM Author: cerise box office associate exactly, this guy is practically an immigrant himself and he's bitching about them. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567655&forum_id=2#7465349) |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 2:11 AM Author: frozen goyim 1960 census: 179,323,175 1965 estimate: 191,312,603 1970 census: 203,302,031
that means about 1 out of every 1100 people in 1965 immigrated that year.
2006: 300,000,000
that means about 1 out of every 300 people immigrated that year.
what part of simple ratios confuses you, :D?
"If you look at the volume of immigration as a percentage of the total domestic population, past levels have been higher."
oh, yeah? when? |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 1:01 AM Author: Khaki stag film First, I can't find the numbers you're referring to, and even if they're correct, you have to look at immigration as a percentage of non-immigrant population, not just the raw numbers.
Second, what I'm hearing is that your "gut" tells you that prior groups of immigrants were in some sense better than Mexican immigrants. This isn't very interesting, except inasmuch as it confirms your bias. |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 1:06 AM Author: cheese-eating nursing home goal in life great. see, i try to have a conversation and you call me "biased" because i say something you don't like. this is precisely the problem with the immigration discussion today.
i have a problem with mexicans waiving the mexican flag. is this a "bias" as well? i have a problem condoning illegal behavior. i have a problem making people wait in line to enter this country and then have the most uneducated peasants cross our border and demand health services and drivers licenses. my great grandparents never did this shit. our modern mexican immigrants different or similar to past immigrant groups. how are they similar? you've offered nothing. i don't disbelieve you on face, but calling me "biased" pissed me off. get off your high moral horse. tyia. |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 1:11 AM Author: crusty magenta fortuitous meteor institution "i have a problem making people wait in line to enter this country and then have the most uneducated peasants cross our border and demand health services and drivers licenses. my great grandparents never did this shit."
They probably did as there were almost no immigration restrictions for non-Asians prior to 1965. |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 8:44 AM Author: Electric Abode New Version Quiet, moron. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567655&forum_id=2#7466371) |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 1:17 AM Author: Khaki stag film Oh, the wounded racist. This is always a good one.
Tell you what, stop being a racist and I'll stop calling you one, if it hurts your feeling so much.
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 1:24 AM Author: cheese-eating nursing home goal in life because i oppose illegal immigration i'm racist? ha. go kill yourself.
furthermore, you clearly have very little understanding of the immigration issue as many cubans and puerto ricans oppose mexicans and central americans. it's not a race issue, though i will concede it is a cultural one.
aren't you offended by people waiving foreign flags in your country? does that make me a racist? if not, it makes you a traitor. chupeme pendejo. |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 1:25 AM Author: Khaki stag film Yeah, you're a racist because you oppose illegal immigration. Ha ha.
Weak, weak, weak. I'm sorry I took you seriously earlier. |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 1:27 AM Author: cheese-eating nursing home goal in life you're a fucking idiot. like that paulwalnuts douche, you intuit racist from everything that you disagree with.
if you don't love this country then fucking leave it--even if you were born here. |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 1:29 AM Author: Khaki stag film What tipped me off was that your "gut" tells you that there's something wrong with Mexican immigrants.
Come on, how else am I going to interpret that? |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 1:34 AM Author: cheese-eating nursing home goal in life yeah, i watched the riots on tv where they were waiving mexican, salvadoran, guatemalan flags. hell, they could've had canadian and pashto flags. if so, include them in my complaining, too. this has nothing to do with race--defined by genetics--but everything to do with culture and respect--defined as people coming to american and refusing to abide by american customs. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567655&forum_id=2#7465570) |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 2:24 AM Author: cheese-eating nursing home goal in life "First, I can't find the numbers you're referring to, and even if they're correct, you have to look at immigration as a percentage of non-immigrant population, not just the raw numbers."
it's actually in the link i posted. it's a video, but it's in the first couple minutes. |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 12:40 AM Author: cerise box office associate they had the same attitude, it's just so much easier to stay in contact with the old country now than it used to be and have no real loyalty like almost all the azn/south asian/eastern european immigrants today, they all take a plane back and just look at the USA as a place to make money. and edit: it's not hard to see italian/irish flags everywhere dood, or the fact that they never shut up about their "heritage" |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 12:43 AM Author: cheese-eating nursing home goal in life you're right. and i fucking hate it! the guids from jerz are the worst. it's taken like 3 generations to get the mafia under control. are we looking at another 3 generations of hispanic gangs in la? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567655&forum_id=2#7465241) |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 12:46 AM Author: Plum patrolman i agree. it's one thing if you were born in italy and moved here when you were 16 or something and call yourself "italian". quite another to be born here along with parents and grandparents and call yourself "italian". (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567655&forum_id=2#7465253) |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 12:48 AM Author: Lime frum parlor You see 2nd generation Mexicans with flags and not speaking English? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567655&forum_id=2#7465271) |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 12:32 AM Author: crusty magenta fortuitous meteor institution weak flame (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567655&forum_id=2#7465175) |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 12:38 AM Author: cheese-eating nursing home goal in life it's not flame fag. if it were flame i'd give flame responses. is it such a ridiculous sentiment to be againt illegal immigrantion? is it so rediculous considering 75+% of americans want to limit immigration.
go fuck yourself. (this is flame.) |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 12:42 AM Author: crusty magenta fortuitous meteor institution It's ridiculous to be against illegal immigration because the policy of the government has been to turn a blind eye to it, thus encouraging it. For example, there are criminal and civil penalties associated with illegally moving here while there are only light, *very* rarely enforced civil penalties for hiring illegal immigrants. If the government wanted to really shut down a lot of illegal immigration it could do so in a heartbeat, albeit at the expense of the economy. So, to be against illegal immigration is to be against a boon to the economy and government policy that could easily have changed at any point in the country's past. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567655&forum_id=2#7465237) |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 12:47 AM Author: cheese-eating nursing home goal in life i agree about the govt policy. i disagree about your economic statement. and even if it were able to be empirically proved, society and culture is a lot more than making money. if having a "great economy" were your only criterion, then hell we should have kept slavery because that really kept inflation low. thankfully, our forefathers believed in civic virtue above mere pecuniary gain. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567655&forum_id=2#7465265) |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 12:51 AM Author: crusty magenta fortuitous meteor institution in the long term, a slave-based agrarian economy is not efficient. Today's mechanized farms would kick the shit out of an old southern plantation. If you think decisions are made based on anything other than economics you are deluded. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567655&forum_id=2#7465291) |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 1:01 AM Author: cheese-eating nursing home goal in life so analagously, a tighter labor market would encourage greater capital investment and mechanization. in the long term, an illegal immigran-based ecoonomy dependment on menial jobs is also inefficient.
as to your second point, i agree with you descriptively but not normatively. in the past, decisions were made in the context of civic virtue, christianity, and a greater sense of morality. only a deluded marxist would argue that the civil war was pitting northern protectionists against southern exporters. |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 1:06 AM Author: crusty magenta fortuitous meteor institution "so analagously, a tighter labor market would encourage greater capital investment and mechanization. in the long term, an illegal immigran-based ecoonomy dependment on menial jobs is also inefficient."
According to neoliberal ideology, having an excess of labor makes labor cheaper, freeing up more money for capital investment. I'm not aware of any economist that thinks that a tighter labor market encourages capital investment. What you're claiming is definitely counter-intuitive. And I doubt you can back it up. |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 1:08 AM Author: cheese-eating nursing home goal in life how can a scarcity of labor make it cheaper? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567655&forum_id=2#7465412) |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 1:09 AM Author: crusty magenta fortuitous meteor institution shit, i didn't mean dearth i meant excess
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 1:13 AM Author: cheese-eating nursing home goal in life perhaps i'm using the term wrong as well, but i thgouth "tight labor market" meant lack of excess labor, thus creating an incentive for capital investment and mechanization. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567655&forum_id=2#7465451) |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 1:14 AM Author: crusty magenta fortuitous meteor institution And I'm saying that's not right. If labor costs more, there is less extra money available for capital investment. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567655&forum_id=2#7465462) |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 1:18 AM Author: cheese-eating nursing home goal in life you: mechanized fields are more efficient.
me: lack of labor gives incentives to owners to make capital investments.
i think for the short term, you're right. but over the long-term, a tighter labor market will create enough incentives to allow for greater mechanization. otherwise, we would have to keep importing cheap labor ad infinitum. |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 1:24 AM Author: crusty magenta fortuitous meteor institution what I'm saying is backed up by neoliberal theory. What you're saying is not backed up by anybody that I'm aware of. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567655&forum_id=2#7465510) |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 1:26 AM Author: Khaki stag film He's supported by the "Mexicans suck" theory, in which anything can be true, so long as it justifies getting rid of those filthy Mexicans. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567655&forum_id=2#7465518) |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 1:29 AM Author: cheese-eating nursing home goal in life dude, it's clear your mexican. like i said, i don't like illegal immigration. i was using mexican as a generalize term. chill the fuck out. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567655&forum_id=2#7465540) |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 1:31 AM Author: Khaki stag film No use backpedaling now. Maybe you should edit your posts.
It's pretty hilarious that you assume I must be Mexican. No right-thinking non-Mexicans would find your aversion to Mexicans distasteful, right? |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 1:35 AM Author: cheese-eating nursing home goal in life as i responded below, i made an inflammatory title and op to get people to respond. i'm done with you unless you want to have an actual convo instead of shouting me down by calling me a racist. besides that immigration issue, i'm as liberal as they come. in fact i hate condescending wasps such as yourself who have fucked over every non wasp group in this country and continue to act with smug superiority. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567655&forum_id=2#7465577) |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 1:39 AM Author: Khaki stag film Haha, you're such an angry little fucker, aren't you? There's really no way to have a conversation with you, though. You'll invent, change, and abandon facts and principles as it suits you, so long as you come to the right outcome.
So run along and have fund with your serious debate. |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 1:40 AM Author: cheese-eating nursing home goal in life hey you were flaming ME. good job. now pop your collar and call it a life. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567655&forum_id=2#7465609) |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 1:46 AM Author: Khaki stag film I just think it's hilarious when people conduct these little debates as an exercise to confirm their preexisting biases. They're incredibly intellectually bankrupt, but the participants are oh so serious, and get quite huffy if called on it. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567655&forum_id=2#7465631) |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 1:50 AM Author: cheese-eating nursing home goal in life my request was simple: i'd like to not think we have a problem with illegal immigration. i personally believe we do, but you can convince me otherwise. you: you're a racist that can never be convinced. me: really? i don't mind cubans, they built miami and most of htem assimilate. you: well, you must be racist against some dark-skinned, spanish speakers, but not others.
ps, we only have an open border because the corporations want one. have fun supporting wal-mart and its views on labor rights. you're a fucking pawn. |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 1:54 AM Author: Khaki stag film Yeah, that's exactly what happened.
Are you still having trouble seeing why I don't take you seriously? |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 2:00 AM Author: cheese-eating nursing home goal in life are you still having tgrouble seeing why i think you're a tool? you're one of those limosine liberals that see racism everywhere. newsflash, it's a controversial subject. this is why it's easier to discuss on a message board than irl.
you disgust me. |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 1:08 AM Author: Khaki stag film Slavery can't be compared to immigration, because most Americans believe in a fundamental right to liberty, but not a fundamental right not have immigrants enter the country.
There's an interesting piece on the economics of immigration in the previous issue of Foreign Affairs. It looks like you can read the whole thing here: http://www.foreignaffairs.org/20061101faessay85606/tamar-jacoby/immigration-nation.html |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 12:35 AM Author: Violet thirsty sanctuary no (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567655&forum_id=2#7465193) |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 12:35 AM Author: cheese-eating nursing home goal in life (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567655&forum_id=2#7465195) |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 12:39 AM Author: Khaki stag film Of course they will, but the US won't be unchanged either. This is perfectly natural.
Many Mexican immigrants may be clinging to their own language and culture in part because they are marginalized from mainstream American culture. They are, in effect, being told to give up their own cultural identity but not being offered a new one. |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 1:14 AM Author: cheese-eating nursing home goal in life what about an american identity? what about speaking english and waiving an american flag? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567655&forum_id=2#7465457) |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 12:43 AM Author: Plum patrolman I think what you're asking probably is true but of all recent immigrants not just Mexicans. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567655&forum_id=2#7465243) |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 12:49 AM Author: cheese-eating nursing home goal in life correct. i used the term "mexican" as a generalized term for latin american illegals as a group. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567655&forum_id=2#7465273) |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 12:51 AM Author: Plum patrolman i think it includes more than just latin american illegals. you could probably find ample evidence of this going on in the middle eastern communities and especially with asian immigrants. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567655&forum_id=2#7465294) |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 1:02 AM Author: cheese-eating nursing home goal in life ralph nader, john sanunu, and kasey casem are all arab. i doubt the middle eastern comunities provide evidence for your assertion. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567655&forum_id=2#7465371) |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 1:04 AM Author: Plum patrolman 1)pointing out a few well chosen counter examples doesnt necessarily weaken my conclusion
2)I used the word "probably". So maybe, maybe not, just a guess on my part and I could be way off. |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 12:50 AM Author: adventurous partner kitchen This thread is hilarious, starts with a title that belittles an entire people and an OP that admits he 'doesn't like mexicans.' But then as you read through the OP keeps trying to make this thread 'civil' demanding that others discuss this issue in a 'non-douchy' way and asking others to feel free to correct his ideas.
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 1:09 AM Author: cheese-eating nursing home goal in life flame thread to get people to come here. plain and simple.
it takes a big man to be able to recognize that he may be wrong, and i am that big man. |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 1:17 AM Author: Charismatic rose field ape it takes a big man to admit he was wrong, but it takes a bigger man to make fun of that man. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567655&forum_id=2#7465471) |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 12:54 AM Author: Charismatic rose field ape Getting bilingual ballot materials puzzles me. If someone is born in this country, don't they learn to read English? And if someone is naturalized in this country, don't they have to know how to read English? So who is the Spanish language version aimed at? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567655&forum_id=2#7465315) |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 1:01 AM Author: crusty magenta fortuitous meteor institution Some people are more comfortable with Spanish than they are with English. Because voting is a sensitive right and the foundation of our democracy, it makes to make sure large swaths of the country are not disenfranchised. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567655&forum_id=2#7465363) |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 1:03 AM Author: Charismatic rose field ape I'm sorry, I'm more comfortable with Punjabi than English. Why is it OK to disenfranchise me? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567655&forum_id=2#7465375) |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 1:05 AM Author: Violet thirsty sanctuary ur a fucking dot. fuck u (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567655&forum_id=2#7465390) |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 1:11 AM Author: cheese-eating nursing home goal in life this is where i disagree. having a cohesive community identity that allows for civic participation is the foundation of our democracy. having numerous languages in our civic community causes division and lack of cohesion--look to canada, india, et al. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567655&forum_id=2#7465439) |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 1:02 AM Author: Cobalt Station Genital Piercing 1. There is no official national language in USA -- entirely possible for someone to be born here and read English but have better reading comp in another language.
2. Naturalization process asks for very elementary level English, not the rhetorical devices often used in ballot initiatives, making other language versions more necessary. |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 1:04 AM Author: Charismatic rose field ape which schools here neglect english for another language? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567655&forum_id=2#7465387) |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 1:13 AM Author: Cobalt Station Genital Piercing I would say it's less about an entire school and more about ESL programs, especially for recent immigrants or first generation kids who only speak another language at home...lots of bilingual ed programs do both at the same time but the kid may only speak french, arabic, spanish, mandarin, etc. at home and be immersed in native language reading materials, so they get along better in that language. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567655&forum_id=2#7465455) |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 1:03 AM Author: indigo big-titted gaping police squad You're almost certainly overstating how much earlier immigrants wanted to "be American." A whole lot of them were just here to make money and a lot of them went back.
Mexicans especially will probably not assimilate the way that earlier immigrant groups did, because I don't think we've ever had this many immigrants who all spoke the same language, and we've sure as hell never had this many immigrants who were so close to their home country. |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 1:14 AM Author: Cobalt Station Genital Piercing the proximity to latin american is a HUGE factor in this... (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567655&forum_id=2#7465460) |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 1:16 AM Author: cheese-eating nursing home goal in life so what does this mean for the future? they go back? we start seeing east la's in every major city? eventually they'll all assimilate ad beyond physical characteristics won't be able to tell them apart? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567655&forum_id=2#7465466) |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 1:10 AM Author: Cobalt Station Genital Piercing Subject: Keep up with the times It's very hard to compare modern migration/assimilation stories to previous waves of immigrant experiences.
Part of the challenge early European immigrants faced was an American culture with more open bigotry around. There were places in NYC that would advertise wages for whites, blacks, and italians separately (sometimes with italians at the lowest wage), so it's obvious that it was in the immigrant's best interest to assimilate. There were few communication/investment channels, so less ability to stay in tune with one's native culture and/or give money back to where one came from, as latin americans/asians/south asians do today.
As far as flags, go to Arthur Avenue in the bronx, Mulberry Street in Manhattan, and parts of Coney and Stanten Islands -- you'll see all the italian and irish flags want. You need to get out more and stop shitting on people who are just trying to make it like everyone else. |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 1:32 AM Author: cheese-eating nursing home goal in life i'm from miami. i despice nyc. i think it's a shit hole. having said that, i don't give a crap what flag it is, you should only be flying the american flag.
many cubans actually have and are assimilating. others are not. many, however, are here legally, and that makes a big difference in my mind.
how do you feel about people coming into your community and refusing to abide by your customs? maybe that doesn't piss you off, but complaining about it doesn't mean one is "shitting" on them. |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 1:36 AM Author: cerise box office associate cubans might speak english but I'd hardly say they're assimilating anymore than mexicans, probably less, atleast mexicans like the cowboys. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567655&forum_id=2#7465582) |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 1:39 AM Author: cheese-eating nursing home goal in life hey, i stand corrected then. i admit i was under the impression that there was a difference between cubans and other latin american communities. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567655&forum_id=2#7465604) |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 1:43 AM Author: cerise box office associate there is a difference but cubans tend to be much bigger assholes than other groups and look down on people for not being cuban. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567655&forum_id=2#7465617) |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 1:46 AM Author: cheese-eating nursing home goal in life my doctor is cuban, came here because he wanted freedom. he cares about politics etc. ok in my book. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567655&forum_id=2#7465628) |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 1:36 AM Author: Cobalt Station Genital Piercing I'm not from NYC, but I love it and am always a bit suspicious of people who don't like it...Miami is awesome, though.
I don't care about people not "abiding by my customs." Maybe you should explain what is so threatening about people not abiding by yours.
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 1:39 AM Author: cerise box office associate Being from here I can see why people don't and if you haven't lived here for 5+ years you really can't say you know what it's like living here. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567655&forum_id=2#7465602) |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 1:57 AM Author: opaque lodge It takes a real new yorker to be this self depracating and snobby in the same sentence. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567655&forum_id=2#7465673) |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 1:44 AM Author: cheese-eating nursing home goal in life 1) i hate the fucking yankees fans. that is the #1 i hate about nyc. i respect the mets... the working man's team that tries its hardest against the shadow of the evil empire.
2) it's not threatening so much as insulting. ok, for example, let's say i go to your house and the custom is to take of your shoes and let grandma be served first at dinner. i walk around in my boots and help myself to dinner first. worse yet, i wasn't even invided, but rather i just showed up one day.
i admit the above example is inane, but i analogize this to coming into this country and waiving foreign flags and refusing to speak english and demanding medical care, driver's licensces, and other privileges. |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 2:55 AM Author: indigo big-titted gaping police squad They're here "legally" because they were given citizenship because we hate Castro. If Hillary is elected and grants amnesty to the Mexicans, will that make a difference to you? And Miami is basically a Latin American city. You're worried about integration, but Miami is OK with you? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567655&forum_id=2#7466059) |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 2:57 AM Author: cheese-eating nursing home goal in life difference between political assylum and jumping the fence for pure economic reasons. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567655&forum_id=2#7466080) |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 3:01 AM Author: indigo big-titted gaping police squad So the rich Cubans who came here because the communists wanted their money are OK but the Mexicans who come here to work aren't? It doesn't make any sense to feel differently about two groups that are treated differently by immigration laws for purely political reasons. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567655&forum_id=2#7466100) |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 3:03 AM Author: cheese-eating nursing home goal in life it wasn't just "rich cuabs." it was anyone who opposed the communist regime. i'm not defending cubans or criticising mexicans en masse. i'm talking about illegals who come for purely economic reasons and don't give a shit about this country. most established cubans i know at least appreciate the freedom in this country to say 'fuck castro.' (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567655&forum_id=2#7466110) |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 3:14 AM Author: indigo big-titted gaping police squad Again, the point is that the Cubans come for largely economic reasons, identify primarily as Cuban and not American and would probably have gone back already if we had managed to overthrow Castro. Aside from "purely economic" reasons, why the hell do you think most immigrants come here? You seem to have this ridiculous, naive idea that any of the immigrants are in love with the idea of being American. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567655&forum_id=2#7466157) |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 1:37 AM Author: orange odious public bath No. Who gives a fuck if they are Christian? Is it very Christian to break laws, have unprotected sex at 14, join gangs and become alcholics or druggies? Furthermore, they don't place that much value on education when compared to other groups. Even though their language is so fucking similar to English, they choose to live and learn in Spanish. Why? Because they're lazy. They'd rather do the bare minimum, go home, put on a wife beater, beat wife, and drink Dos Equis in their concrete backyard. I've lived in LA for 20 years and have yet to meet ONE - yes, ONE - Latino who I would consider brilliant/prestigious. And no, this is not b/c of self-selection - I interact with a LOT of different people in my daily life. And in my public persona, I'm a pretty nice, open-minded person (on here I fucking hate Mexicans, like most people).
Anyway, all that Mexicans are good for is to ship off to Iraq to get shot down on the front lines. Seriously. We need to send Mexicans to Iraq by the droves and have them killed off. That would be a nice reprieve for Americans. |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 1:47 AM Author: cheese-eating nursing home goal in life racist!!!!!!!!!!11 omg. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567655&forum_id=2#7465636) |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 2:05 AM Author: Violet thirsty sanctuary race? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567655&forum_id=2#7465718) |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 2:15 AM Author: adventurous partner kitchen sounds like a 3rd generation mexican. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567655&forum_id=2#7465782) |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 2:22 AM Author: Violet thirsty sanctuary sounds chinkish (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567655&forum_id=2#7465827) |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 2:22 AM Author: beady-eyed mediation "LikeAnAnimal"
;) |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 1:16 AM Author: beady-eyed mediation You throw the term "Mexican" around as if thats the only group coming into America.(When in fact, Mexico is a stepping stone to many south american immigrants)
I think for the most part Mexicans want to assimilate into American culture. Shit, look at Carlos Mencia. Fucker assimilated pretty well. It would certainly help if the US stops treating them like second class citizens/leeches that are not welcome in this country. Hey, that may help. Making somebody feel welcome into their society rather than have them live in this "illegal immigrant" shadow.
I don't know what else to say. Except reiterate the previous posts that claim that immigration has modernized itself into this double edged sword- you can either welcome the immigrants and be prosperously united, or reject them and make the country divided. (It's both's sides responsability to create solidarity)
Hth |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 1:38 AM Author: cheese-eating nursing home goal in life what about all legal immigrants/people waiting for viasa. shouldn't they be given priority over people who come here illegally?
do you personally distinguish between illegal and legal immigration? if so, how should we reconcile the two.
ps, carlos mencia is a racist fucker--he's guatemalan (or maybe nicaraguan) and part european. dude's not even mexican (and his jokes are all the same anyway). |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 1:47 AM Author: beady-eyed mediation (Carlos mencia should be shot- I just used him as an ironic example of someone we consider a true American)
Immigration can be simple, if and only it's not used as a tool of political rhetoric.
There are people who have been here 5+,10+ years that have lives estalished here, kids that go to school here, and have been paying taxes ever since they stepped foot in this country. These people are hungry to be acknowledged as American citizens (or at least legal residents!)
Then we have the gang-sign throwing, mexican flag waving, rapist ese's who think they are here to reclaim this land. These, while in the minority, make the rest look bad. They should be hauled back to Mexico or El Salvador or wherever the hell they came from asap. |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 1:53 AM Author: cheese-eating nursing home goal in life i agree with you. i think there is a 3rd group in between, however: people who have been here 5 or less years who don't give a fuck about this country. they are indifferent and here for purely economic reasons and have no motivation to assimilate. these people should also be sent back.
the bottom line: if you want to be an american, then good for you. but i'm not sure if the first group you mention is as "vast" as you assume. dude, the first couple protests almost everyone was wearing a foreign flag. |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 2:08 AM Author: beady-eyed mediation That flag thing in the protest was hugely overrated and misinterpreted. Just like the time all of these latin artists got together to record the US anthem in spanish (their purpose was to show the love and respect immigrants have for the US- regardless of language, just the fundamental feelings and message that the anthem has)
When the masses of immigrants marched across cities all over the US waving mexican flags- a lot of them weren't waving them to try to symbolize the reconquering of America (although there were the moronic extremists that exist in ANY group of people). The flags symbolized their heritage, dignity and their pride which they left behind by coming to this county. A lot are confused about where they come from and if they are American at all (they are after all used as scapegoats and criminalized). Think about it. They betrayed a country and have become fugitives of another one. The flags mean little to nothing. Give them a shot at residency and acknowledge them as active contributors to this country and they'll jump on the USA Mcwagon in a heartbeat (a lot of them already have) |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 2:12 AM Author: cheese-eating nursing home goal in life good post. prior to addressing it however, i think you need to distinguish between legal and illegal immigrant. you seemed to have glossed over this fact.
i don't see why they should get a shot at residency over people in africa or eastern europe who have been in line longer. |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 2:18 AM Author: beady-eyed mediation I'm not sure I know of statistics showing the amount of illegals IN the US that are african, european, etc.
As for the illegality of immigration- that's something that's a bit gray for me too. I'm still confused as to what is more illegal: the act of crossing the border or working illegaly? Also, is legal immigration = to bureacratic, expensive red tape? |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 2:23 AM Author: cheese-eating nursing home goal in life the problem with the whole discussion IRL, to me at least, is that it's based on notions of economic efficiency. i don't care if hispanics work hard if they're refusing to assimilate etc. OTOH, i don't care if hispanics are a net drain IF there's some sort of trancendental principle that would allow them to be here, like what mecha claims.
"As for the illegality of immigration- that's something that's a bit gray for me too. I'm still confused as to what is more illegal: the act of crossing the border or working illegaly?"
both are illegal. what's scary is that the recent arrests in wisonsin (or MN maybe?) were of illegals who stole the identity/ss# of real people.
" Also, is legal immigration = to bureacratic, expensive red tape?" good point. i'm all for increasing legal immigration. if our economy needs more workers, there should be a controlled way of bringing them in and helping them assimilate and establish themselves. |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 2:28 AM Author: beady-eyed mediation I agree with all of your points. (and Mecha is a TTT) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567655&forum_id=2#7465873) |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 1:18 AM Author: beady-eyed mediation One more thing. Flags mean shit now. Just look at the confederate flags being thrown around in the south. Are we going to let flags define our country, or Youtube? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567655&forum_id=2#7465479) |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 1:40 AM Author: frozen goyim thanks, multiculturalism! (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567655&forum_id=2#7465607) |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 1:50 AM Author: Diverse Chestnut Prole Potus
Adoption of English is very high:
"Intergenerational transmission of Spanish is a better indicator of the future of Spanish in the United States than crude numbers of native Spanish-speaking immigrants in a given moment of time. Although Latin American immigrants have various levels of English proficiency, Hispanics who are second-generation American in the United States almost all speak English, but about 50 percent speak Spanish at home. 2/3rds of third-generation Mexican Americans speak only English at home.
The most complete study of the adoption of English by Spanish-speaking immigrants was undertaken by Calvin Veltman for the National Center for Education Statistics and later, for the Hispanic Policy Development Project. His studies on language shift document very high rates of bilingualism and the subsequent adoption of English as the preferred language of Hispanics, particularly by the young and by the native born. A complete set of demographic projections postulates the nearly complete assimilation of any given cohort of Spanish language immigrants within two generations. Although the study was based on a large 1976 sample developed by the Bureau of the Census which has not been repeated, data from the 1990 Census tend to confirm the massive anglicization of the Hispanic population in all cities and regions of the country. Like that of other groups before it, the future of the Spanish language in the United States depends on continuing immigration."
These rates match pre-1920s immigrant patterns. This is very encouraging. Third generation ppl are disconnected from their ancestral culture, and have assimilated.
Although, the process of assimilation will probably not exactly conform to the cycles of past generations since Mexico is our neighbor. |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 1:56 AM Author: cheese-eating nursing home goal in life interesting. do you have a link to this study? does it control for the numerically larger spanish-speaking communities (and thus account for any potential lack of incentives to learn english?) does it discuss the closeness of latin america?
tyia. |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 2:24 AM Author: Diverse Chestnut Prole Potus I can't find the exact study, but here is another paper by the same author: http://www.jstor.org/view/01979183/di009765/00p0029k/7?frame=noframe&userID=84ef5aa2@ucsd.edu/01cce4406800501b611aa&dpi=3&config=jstor
An here is an intersting story in the LAT about the differences between two Hispanic families, one in East LA, the other Kentucky:
http://www.heraldextra.com/content/view/189021/ |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 2:32 AM Author: cheese-eating nursing home goal in life i read the lat article before. it pisses me off actually. how many more people is that now being supported by the tax payer? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567655&forum_id=2#7465894) |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 2:41 AM Author: Diverse Chestnut Prole Potus Calm down dude. You belong to an economic class that benefits from Mexican immigration. Think about the cost savings every time you step into Target. The wages of all those who work there start at state min. Think about the logistical chain behind all that merchandise. All those guys stocking and unloading are paid low wages because of plentiful immigration. The wage pressure is terrible for low-skilled Americans but a gain for you.
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 2:45 AM Author: cheese-eating nursing home goal in life i see what you're saying dude, but instrumentalist logic and morality can also be used to justify slavery in the ante-bellum south. i'm more concerned with those guys at target having 10 kids each which will put a strain on public resources in the future.
what happens when they establish themselves and want higher wages? do we then have to import more illegal immigrants? if they never establish themselves, then we've allowed a huge, permanent underlcass in our borders who have many many more children than other demographics.
what about matters of civit virtue or responsability? that shit is more important to me than cheap batteries from target. |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 2:48 AM Author: Frisky tanning salon national security agency cheaper labor now frees up more money for capital investment now which in turn makes things more efficient and cheap in the future (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567655&forum_id=2#7465996) |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 2:51 AM Author: cheese-eating nursing home goal in life did you read what i posted? i don't buy instrumental thinking like this. in the past, we americans were concerned with things such as civic virtue and responsability. talking about efficient/cheap goods to the exclusion of any effects on society is utilitarianism in its purest form. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567655&forum_id=2#7466027) |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 2:54 AM Author: Frisky tanning salon national security agency "i don't buy instrumental thinking like this."
You're a retard, then. Have fun getting hard-ons for acts of morality and "responsability." I'm off to enjoy my wealth and hot bitch.
BTW, I was responding to this idiotic argument: "I'm more concerned with those guys at target having 10 kids each which will put a strain on public resources in the future. what happens when they establish themselves and want higher wages? do we then have to import more illegal immigrants? if they never establish themselves, then we've allowed a huge, permanent underlcass in our borders who have many many more children than other demographics." |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 2:56 AM Author: cheese-eating nursing home goal in life dude, this nation was founded on acts of morality and responsability and civic virtue. is this country nothing more than a fucking corporation? wealth means shit if you don't have a sense of noblesse oblige...like the carnegies, mellons, rockefellers, kennedies et al. you're really a disgrace if you think morality is for retards.
Edit: next time you should note when you edit. and yeah, you really showed me.
Edit 2: maybe you should learn how to quote correctly before criticising someone for making "idiotic arguments." tyia. |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 3:12 AM Author: Diverse Chestnut Prole Potus Lots of issues to debate so let me argue the last point because everything else follows more neatly.
-- Preventing illegal immigrants, or large scale Hispanic immigration as a matter of civic virtue.
If you believe that such a large Hispanic pop. will disunite this country then I see your reasoning--but I don't agree. Knowing the history of massive previous immigration cycles: the insularity and nationalism of those ppl (Poles, Greeks, Italians, etc.) at arrival, and the almost complete Anglo-Saxon assimilation of those ppl (except for the cooking) after a few generations, I am confident history will repeat itself. I read in a WSJ feature, American businesses shouldn't grow accustomed to the plentiful new labor. Mexico instituted a very successful family planning program a generation ago, so this level of immigration will not be constant. That will improve the prospects of assimilation even more.
--"if they never establish themselves, then we've allowed a huge, permanent underlcass in our borders who have many many more children than other demographics."
There won't be a permanent underclass because of assimilation. The successful ones, like the Kentucky girls in that above article, will establish themselves. More importantly, by the time America becomes minority white in the 2040s, I doubt we will still be dividing ppl into strict single racial categories. There will be massive intermarriage, and single race labels will be mismatched.
--instrumental logic
I don't believe I'm defending a wicked position (illegal immigration). Our class--business and professionals--enjoy the status quo. Our laws are broken, but we partially consent. (Bush's position on the matter is very telling)
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 3:40 AM Author: cheese-eating nursing home goal in life very good post. it was this type of discussion that i was looking forward to.
"--instrumental logic
I don't believe I'm defending a wicked position (illegal immigration). Our class--business and professionals--enjoy the status quo. Our laws are broken, but we partially consent. (Bush's position on the matter is very telling) "
My point wasn't that illegal immigration is wicked, rather your logic in defending it--based on economic consequences--is an instrumentalist approach. hypothetically, if it were empiraclly shown that enslaving these day laborers improved the economy, this line of thinking would oblige us to enslave them.
also, the fact is bush doesn't care about poor people. ok seriously, illegal immigration is hurting the poorest demographics in our society--minorities and legal immigrants who have no skills and must not compete with illegals for jobs and children whose parents cannot afford insurance or private schools and must go to public clinics and public schools which have fewer resources to go around.
"There won't be a permanent underclass because of assimilation. The successful ones, like the Kentucky girls in that above article, will establish themselves. More importantly, by the time America becomes minority white in the 2040s, I doubt we will still be dividing ppl into strict single racial categories. There will be massive intermarriage, and single race labels will be mismatched."
i agree. it is non-sense about speaking of hispanics as a homogenous block. most of my hispanic friends are of european origin and are either white or mediterranean looking.
"If you believe that such a large Hispanic pop. will disunite this country then I see your reasoning--but I don't agree. Knowing the history of massive previous immigration cycles: the insularity and nationalism of those ppl (Poles, Greeks, Italians, etc.) at arrival, and the almost complete Anglo-Saxon assimilation of those ppl (except for the cooking) after a few generations, I am confident history will repeat itself. I read in a WSJ feature, American businesses shouldn't grow accustomed to the plentiful new labor. Mexico instituted a very successful family planning program a generation ago, so this level of immigration will not be constant. That will improve the prospects of assimilation even more."
here is where i am not so confident about your conclusion. in the past, we could vet immigrants and weed out criminals, retards, and other "undesirables." by importing illiteracy and crime we end up with shit like the mother in the article you posted and M13. her 10 children will have 5,6,7 children each, required the state's expenditures to increase exponentially. moreover, as the community grows, there is less of an incentive to assimilate whereas in the past, the greeks/poles/italians were cut off from their mother country and couldn't get along with just speaking their native language about m13: http://www.policemag.com/t_cipick.cfm?rank=90876
second, as exemplafied in the may protests, the illegals were waiving their flags of national origin and chanting in spanish. there are even groups like mecha that talk about reconquering the southwest. instead of embracing american notions of civic society it *seems* to me that they are importing their retarded notions of poverty that makes the rural parts of their original countries shit holes to begin with.
one last point: the visigoths and vandals were allowed into the roman empire to strengthen the army and provide labor. they, too, had a strong sense of identity. we know what happened there. so i ask, is mecha closer to the visigoths who demanded--and ultimately received--their own state or is mecha closer to the poles/greeks who arrived a century ago? i don't know the answer to this... |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 2:46 AM Author: Violet thirsty sanctuary Spics aren't 'immigrants', they're invaders (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567655&forum_id=2#7465986) |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 2:48 AM Author: Frisky tanning salon national security agency race? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567655&forum_id=2#7466001) |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 2:51 AM Author: beady-eyed mediation Mars attacks!
Play music so their heads explode!
Omg! |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 4:10 AM Author: chartreuse headpube point LOL at whites talking about conserving the environment of North America.
Why don't you give the land back to the Indians and go back to Europe? That would be the best thing for North America. |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 8:05 AM Author: stirring temple what's the pinyin for your name? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567655&forum_id=2#7466348) |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 8:55 AM Author: Chest-beating double fault they'll assimilate. English speaking culture rules the nation, and the world. Of course, they'll also have their mark on mainstream culture. and at least they do'nt commit violent crime. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567655&forum_id=2#7466377) |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 8:59 AM Author: Electric Abode New Version That last part is a joke, isn't it? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567655&forum_id=2#7466386) |
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Date: January 22nd, 2007 11:30 AM Author: Exhilarant mentally impaired parlour dopamine My grandmother immigrated from Mexico in the 1930s. She spoke no English and cleaned houses for a living. Her children speak English but are only passively fluent in Spanish. They are all solid middle class people. Now her grandchildren speak only English and have all completed some kind of higher education. I've only been to Mexico once and that was for spring break. I basically look and act white, but get to mark URM on applications. Total assimilation may take a couple generations, but it eventually happens. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=567655&forum_id=2#7466714) |