Go to Davis. Go to Cravath. Go to STB. Go to Debeviose. They might not be much better, but there is no way they could be worse.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6349970)

ROFL

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6350679)

V20-40 is my long term goal after I toil in the V5 for 2 - 4 years.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6350722)

I'm totally not coming back. I know its prestigious and all that, but I'd rather work at Stroock, with all seriousness.

I know plenty of people who ran out of S&C into a V20-40. I don't think its that hard to do. It is much more common these days, though , for the V20-40 people to lateral into S&C. The brand has been totally diluted.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6350826)

I was talking more about exit options. I knew the hours were the same. I am all for working hard - I just hate the negative attitude at S&C. I walk into the building and there is just this amazing negative tension.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6350850)

Again, I would do 3L recruiting with an open mind. If nothing turns up or if no lower-ranked firms really impress you then you can always go to DPW. I know a few people who summered at S&C, CSM-type firms and then ended up going deep into the V100 because they realized that prestige was not the most important thing to them in selecting a firm. And, like I said above, if your long-term goal is a partnership at one of these firms it's definitely better just to start there.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6350880)

Interesting about the "prestige" advantages of S&C - I don't see that at all, especially given that DPW is significantly more selective, though I admit its tough for me to compare as just a summer.

DPW seems to be a sweatshop but at least the people are a bit more team oriented.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6350902)

I might not be happy at DPW either, but I think its worth a try. You're right about partnership in 20-40 - but I think i'd also be happy with going in house, so I think going to DPW for a couple years will help keep my options open.

ARGH! Why did I just go there this summer! NAAIVEPWN#D!!1

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6350956)

You might win on the here and now at stroock, but you're making a sacrifice about long term career goals.

These are all generalities - obviously you can do very well out of stroock and you can do very badly out of S&C. I think I need about 2-4 years of V10 firm experience just to establish a pedigree and give me the best options to make an educated decision. but I could very well wind up working as a 5th year at stroock alongside others who had been there the whole time, and I don't think this would bother me.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6353765)

Almost every associate i've met hates it here, except for the occasional associate from a shitty law school (read: NYLS or some canandian school you've never heard of) who is overwhelmingly happy to have the job. Further more, they talk about how much they hate it ALL THE TIME. Keep in mind i'm a summer, and they are theoretically supposed to be on good behavior around me. While i've been here, my associate mentor and buddy both told me that they were almost certainly going to leave the firm at first opportunity and would definately not be here when I get back. Another associate told me it would be a "big fucking mistake" if I went to work there, though he attempted to rationalize it by saying "but i'm sure its just as shitty everywhere else."

As far as work, it can be very interesting. The midlevels i've encounted, however, are horrendous people. I've admired exactly 4 midlevels that i've met since recruiting, and they have all left the firm since that time. People are leaving in droves - part of that is true at all biglaw firms because the market is so good, but people aren't leaving with the "I really enjoyed S&C" line - they are very, very happy to be gone.

Beyond that, I can't really explain it any more than to say that it is a culture of unhappiness. The associates here seem to all by hardcore gunner types, the ones that Stroock warned you about who hoarde the super-secret notes. When you are walking around the firm, it just feels suffocating and very, very tense. I guess this is what they mean by "stuffy." Many of the partners seem to be very passive aggressive.

I've met some good people - one partner impressed me very much. But, generally speaking, I dread going into the office each day, and that is pretty bad considering i'm a summer. It is very tiring to hear other fulltime associates talk about how "Great it is to be a summer" and "how much it sucks when you actually work full time" and how "shitty the work is" and how the "partners screw us with pay." I'm not sure the work or the hours are actually any different from the other firms - but I am pretty sure that the general attitude is different. People here don't like working here, it seems, and feel some social obligation to make sure that no one else does either.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6351090)

Above, you mentioned that you might be happier/better-off at a firm like Stroock. Do you think that rising 2Ls (like myself) should just toss the V rankings out the window and just choose a firm where we feel at home? And do you think that there's a very significant difference in your exit options from S&C and another firm like PBWT or Stroock?

I know that I need a pretty decent work environment to survive, so I would be very interested in your perspective on this.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6351165)

Prestige matters at a certain level. If you want to work in house, the exit options are certainly superior out of S&C than out of Strook. Though the post above noted that if you want to be partner at a V20-40, its better to start there - and I agree with this.

It depends on what you want to do. If you want to go onto the business side, then yes, prestige matters. If you want to go inhouse, I'd try to get a V10 job. If you are more interesting in becoming a partner at a firm, be less into the vault guide.

But I don't think there is any good reason to choose Sullivan over, say Simpson Thacher or Debevoise, unless you are really desperate to be an ibanker at Goldman.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6351189)

As bad as banking is hours wise, i gather MOST banks have better morale than this.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6354598)

its certainly possible but if you dont' want to be a lawyer don't go to law school,

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6354640)

Its all about corporate culture - a lot of time being told you should be unhappy leads to your being unhappy. It is very tiring. Its really amazing, and I don't really see any upside to coming here over DPW or STB.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6351223)

How do the other summers feel? Do they just assume every firm is like this and resign themselves to their fate?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6351274)

Many first years do seem to rationalize it by saying every other firm is shitty too. I'm sure the work is similar, but my bet is that the culture is different at other firms.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6351294)

i diss on wachtell all the time, but in all seriousness, i think that's the only vault 5 that makes any sense going to. i think if you're looking at the top firms, it's true you may work harder at wachtell than anywhere else (might not even be true if you're not doing m&a), but since your hours are gonna suck wherever you are, might as well get paid $80k bonus as a 1st year, the best exit opportunities and a smaller office with a fully stocked pantry.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6352260)

Fortunately, most of us will never have this dilemna.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6352325)

so the only real differences in what makes associates happier at some firms versus others is usually in the small things that impact office culture, e.g. not being treated like babies with restrictive internet policies where you can't check webmail (like cleary), mandatory in-office from 9:30-5:30 (like simpson) and clocking in and out when you run down for coffee, etc. the other difference is in compensation, and that's really why it makes a ton of sense to go to wachtell if you have the grades for it.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6352412)

I agree that the things you list make a huge difference. Huge. But hours matter somewhat too, and 5-8 more a week really can matter (especially if they're placed at a bad time, which extra ones usually are).

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6352469)

i mean, i thought the firm i would like to end up in has better hours than places like cravath or skadden, but attorneys who lateraled from there have told me otherwise. they say the difference is not so much in hours but rather respect for vacation time or flexibility to work from home, etc. i'm still pretty sure i will work on average less than an associate at cravath, but i think the the actual hours differences btwn large ny firms are not consistent.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6352580)

I totally forgot about the vacation time thing. That's so huge. There's nothing that makes people surlier than having their vacations cancelled. I think it also makes a big difference whether you work at a place where someone is willing to cover for you so you can sneak out for your anniversary or your friend's wedding, and one where no one cares enough to trade off. I think it's hard to tell that one ahead of time too - same with attitudes towards vacations.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6352606)

People can certainly lateral, but that's hard to do lightly, especially if you're going to another biglaw firm. You can only switch so much, so you need to be pretty sure it's an improvement before you do.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6353127)

holy shit; i had no idea

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6353034)

But it's certainly true that working in a place you tolerate makes things easier.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6352368)

and from what i hear, the culture at wachtell is truly different than at other places -- i'd much rather work 80 hour weeks at a place where people like each other than where everyone is miserable -- that makes the hours soooo much worse.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6352503)

I'd agree that a tolerable workplace (more in terms of not too much nitpicking and having coworkers with similar mindsets than everyone actually liking each other) is also a big factor. But I don't think that even that necessarily tips in favor of any one firm - Wachtell has a pretty distinct culture, and I think that not everyone is going to find it an appealing one. Same with the firms you dislike - the kind of people they're populated with probably do better there than they would elsewhere.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6352551)

HTFH

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#8415882)

it's cool to be a greedy kike. but no so good to be a house nigger.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#9841653)

Where do you get these ideas about DPW? At my school that's where all the laid back people with top grades went when they hated the S&C/CSM/Wacthell culture but still wanted to go to a top firm. Doesn't sound like a terrible crowd.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6352376)

my roomie summered at wachtell and loved it, and this is after working until midnight most nights. it's certainly an intense place, but hardly stuffy -- she says the place runs so efficiently with the admin support and people aren't unhappy at all b/c her sense is that the associates are treated with respect. the personalities that they attract are the type that want to be the most challenging, high level work, and that's not the sense i get from my friend at s&c who is complaining that he is slammed b/c there are no mid-levels to do any work and the partners suck.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6352452)

Yes, this is a fair point - it could be just as bad. I really don't think it could be any worse, and I do gather from the midlevels / first years who I talk to that they do actually enjoy working there.

I'm pretty douchey too - i'm ok with douchebags. I just think S&C is depressing and suffocating. I'm not saying going to DPW is going to be a ride in the park, I just think its an improvement over S&C.

"that's not the sense i get from my friend at s&c who is complaining that he is slammed b/c there are no mid-levels to do any work and the partners suck"

Don't know anything about wachtell - they dinged me - but what you say about S&C is certainly true. They are all complaining ALL THE FUCKING TIME and it is really tiring. I have to put up with this shit 4 hours a day every day and I'm a fucking summer.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6352641)

Yea, ok, but I didn't get an offer from Wachtell.

Davis might be cheap as far as cookies and sodas and dinners, but I can deal with that as long as the people aren't whining 24/7 and telling me how horribly depressed they are. I can deal with the occasional bitching - but thsi place is out of control. I'd prefer passive agressiveness to straight forward shittyness.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6352621)

The hours are bad, but probably not much worse than other top M&A departments.

Like S&C, there are no mid-levels at Wachtell either. This is bad for junior associates because they work all the time, but good because they mostly do work that would be done by mid-levels at other firms. Lots of first-years will be the only associate on most of their deals.

The pantry and exit opportunities are excellent. Wachtell doesn't have infantilizing webmail or in-office policies, and is very respectful of its associates.

But don't kid yourself that everyone at Wachtell loves it. The firm is very respectful of associates' work, yes, but not of their time. The unpredictability, the hours, the opacity of partnership prospects and pay, and the shortage of associates all cause a lot of grumbling.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6359845)

how does a firm that promotes to the partnership almost entirely from within have "no midlevels"?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6364753)

BIGLAWPWN3D

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6352330)

in all seriousness, my experience as a summer at one wasn't bad. all the associates except for the newbie seemed not overly unhappy, though they did complain about the hours.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6352453)

You think you'll get to be in your 20s some time later on or something?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6353015)

But are there really biglaw firms out there that won't kill your 20s? (Serious Q, not flaming.)

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6353104)

My biglaw friends definitely don't make it out 3-6 nights a week, but maybe they just picked the wrong firms. Likewise on the canceled vacations.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6353173)

Though from my observation, the idea that hours go down once you're partner seems to be a myth.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6353125)

The point is that you only get to be twenty once, while I imagine your 30s and 40s are more boring no matter what you're doing, and money can help alleviate this inevitable boredom.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6353183)

But that's not everybody, I realize.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6353206)

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6353229)

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6353265)

2-3 hours with your friends or SO is very doable, especially if they stay up late, but kids don't stay up until 1 am. If you get home at 11, they'll probably be in bed. If you work in a market where people get out a little earlier and are very efficient, you might get an hour in the evening after you commute home and sometimes the weekends.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6353250)

You could make an effort to be home by 9 pm regularly, and that's at least an hour for young kids. As they get older they'll stay up later and later. Also, you could spend an hour in the morning with them as you get ready for work. That would be a wicked way to start the day, especially if "Maria" is feeding them.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6353319)

An hour or two in the morning probably would be your best time, although people gave a female partner described in one of those Vault Day-in-the-Life thingies hell for hanging out with her kid in the morning and not seeing it at night.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6353375)

Entering at 30-33 seems like it might be an even better schedule.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6353074)

Spend a lot of time with your summers??

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6353337)

part of it is that you really can't get a real sense about a firm until you work there.

But looking back on it now, I can definately see the warning signs that I blatantly ignored. I didn't want to go to Cravath because the people were crazy. but I think of myself as a tough guy, and I didn't want to go to davis because everyone says its "passive agreesive." so i was like, why not go to the place that is honest and says that it sucks hardcore?

Then I realized when i got here that there is no reason that you ahve to be that depressed about it. You can enjoy your work and not be gunning every five minutes at some other firms. Partners and associates don't have to be cold to you all the time and treat you like tech support. And, most importantly, your co-workers don't have to be so freaking depressed all the time, whining continuously about how shitty their lives are. its like a firm full of XOXO whiners.

Should I have seen the warning signs? Yea, probably - all the other quality people at my law school did and went to either Cravath or Davis or Simpson. I was naaive and made a mistake, fortunately it isn't a big deal because I am brave enough to admit it and go to a different firm.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6353673)

are there key questions one should ask, or key phrases one should look for, to try to locate those warning signs that a firm might have an awful atmosphere, or is it nothing more than observing the faces of people throughout the office during callbacks and when you ask your interviewers what their day is like and how they like the firm they frankly tell you how they feel?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6354637)

1) DON'T WORK AT THE V3.

2) DRAG OUT YOUR OFFERS AS LONG AS POSSIBLE. ASK TO SPEAK TO MORE ASSOCIATES AS YOU TRY TO MAKE A DECISION, CONTACT CURRENT ATTORNEYS THERE WHO ARE ALUMS OF YOUR LAW SCHOOL TO ASK THEM ABOUT THE FIRM, TALK TO RISING 3LS, ETC.

3) IF YOU CAN, DON'T WORK IN NYC.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6354654)

After you get an offer, I highly recommend visiting the firm again for another round of meetings, preferably with 4th/5th/6th years. The callbacks you are just trying to sell yourself so you can't ask any real questions. I did this, and if I had been a rational human being I would have gone to davis because it was the best fit for me, even with the passive agressive and cheapness (both of which are true to a certain extent).

Go with your instincts, don't over think it. And most importantly, don't be afraid to re-recruit 3l year.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6354684)

today, I asked about vacation. Apparently, we get 4 weeks. but, no one ever takes it all. I'm not sure why - maybe these are just gunners. But then I asked, does it carry over if you dont' use it? Yes, until may of the next year. What if you just can't use it because you are too busy? You lose it forever unless you get a partner to sign off. do people lose it a lot like this? Yes, it happens all the time.

WTF? Why even give out vacation if they aren't going to use it?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6354855)

this is always a possibility - but I've met enough people to suggest that this isn't just one particular clique.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6354960)

What I'd really be curious to find out down the line (though I imagine you won't be posting here any more) is if you really do find it to be better anywhere else.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6354972)

I know many people at the firm who take all of their vacation days. And when I was interviewing at firms, the partner I met with at a V30 firm kept talking about his former firm, so I finally asked him where he began his career. Turns out he lateraled as an associate straight to partnership from S&C.

No one will deny that the firm is all business. The work, the client, and the product come first before anything else. That's not for everyone, but the fact is, the work is exciting, even if it's super intense. But don't make blanket statements about a firm just because you and the firm aren't the right fit. Corporate law is tough and you have to make sacrifices. I can be so bold as to say that the vast majority of NY associates at all firms who take at least a morsel of pride in their work/career have gone through unfathomable hours at the office.

You only have yourself to blame. For you, the prospect of working at a high-caliber firm was too good to pass up, and you failed to recognize the fact that in any industry, if you're at the top of the food chain, it is because there is very hard work involved.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6355518)

"No one will deny that the firm is all business. The work, the client, and the product come first before anything else. That's not for everyone, but the fact is, the work is exciting, even if it's super intense"

Good job reading out of the catalogue. Same is true at Davis Polk, except people seem to actually like working there, within obvious limits.

"But don't make blanket statements about a firm just because you and the firm aren't the right fit."

Nope. I'm making blanket statements about how this isn't the right fit for ANYONE. That is one of the reasons why so many people have left over the years - though the other is that it is a very good market. Still, people for the most part hate it here, unless they are have a gunner stiff personality.

"Corporate law is tough and you have to make sacrifices. I can be so bold as to say that the vast majority of NY associates at all firms who take at least a morsel of pride in their work/career have gone through unfathomable hours at the office."

You misread my assertions in this thread as lazyness. They aren't, this has nothing to do with hours - as i've noted several times. I am willing to work from 9am to 3am on deals - no problem. I've done it before and will do it again. I just don't like the shitty, stiff, cold culture at S&C.

"You only have yourself to blame. For you, the prospect of working at a high-caliber firm was too good to pass up, and you failed to recognize the fact that in any industry, if you're at the top of the food chain, it is because there is very hard work involved. "

Uhhh since when was Davis Polk not a "high caliber firm"? I mean, you seriously have to get over yourself. In fact, an offer from there is significantly tougher to get than an offer from S&C, and they have a better securities practice than S&C. S&C has got a great M&A department, but so does davis polk. I'm going to be working hard at davis polk, but the culture, while CERTAINLY NOT PERFECT BY ANY MEANS is lightyears ahead of S&C.

You are one of the typical S&C lot - you rationalize the shittyness of your existance by saying "all the other firms are the same" and "I can lateral down an make partner in 5 year!" Bottom line is - some firms have better cultures than S&C with the same exit opportunities. There is no reason to work if you can get a job at davis or simpson or debevoise unless you want to be unhappy or are socially defunct.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6357951)

Link? Seriously.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6358032)

I think if you are a gunner douche, though, you'd like S&C, assuming you were committed to being a cometitive gunner for your whole career.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6358091)

Listen, the exit options out of S&C are great. But so are the exit options out of DPW, STB, Shearman, Debevoise.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6358102)

So make a reservation several months ahead, tell everyone you're going, and then GO.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6355630)

Like I said, if you guys want to write this off as a "fit" issue and, therefore, my problem, go right ahead. But I don't get why you guys think you are going to be happy when the vast majority of people at S&C aren't. DPW isn't perfect, but I think if one gets an offer there they should take if over S&C as a general matter. The older associates i've spoken to there generally seem a little more satisfied and a little happier. Its not atlantis, but it isn't a burning hell either.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6358166)

I have decided to ignore everything you have said and will say.

Goodnight.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6358179)

I'm honestly trying to spread the word because I think I wasted my time this summer and would have much rather been at another firm. Listen, do your own research if you don't believe me. I'm happy with the decision i've made.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6358226)

I still have to get into LS, then I'll be lucky if I even get an interview at S&C.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6358231)

How is this relevant at all? How would going to LS help me gauge whether this guy is trying too hard or not? I didn't make one claim about the substance of his posts, just his motivation for posting. I even mentioned that I'd be lucky to even get an interview at S&C.

http://www.xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&mc=156&forum_id=2#6358231

Fucking stupid much?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6362769)

Why not just admit you're an idiot? You only look dumber when you come back with shit-ass rebuttals.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6363972)

Fondly,

Former S&CTroll

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6358290)

http://www.sandclawyers.com/attorney.html

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=465648&forum_id=2#6364414)