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anyone here ever finish infinite jest

i did 400 pages
twinkling psychic cruise ship
  07/15/20
I did 40
hateful sanctuary
  07/15/20
nice
twinkling psychic cruise ship
  07/15/20
Never tried.
tan territorial crackhouse macaca
  07/15/20
poast moniker synergy
twinkling psychic cruise ship
  07/15/20
yeah
Cheese-eating supple pit tattoo
  07/15/20
should i read the other 600 pages
twinkling psychic cruise ship
  07/15/20
eh... did you LIKE the first 400 pages? imo in some sense t...
Cheese-eating supple pit tattoo
  07/15/20
agree with this. if you don't want to put in that much time ...
180 clown
  07/15/20
...
hateful sanctuary
  07/15/20
yeah i thought it was great but then i started reading anoth...
twinkling psychic cruise ship
  07/15/20
Yeah.
curious step-uncle's house personal credit line
  07/15/20
yeah
180 clown
  07/15/20
by the time i got it i didn't have a ton of time to devote t...
well-lubricated thriller area
  07/15/20
I did finish, after like a month and a half. I regret it.
odious house pistol
  07/15/20
faggot
Emerald spectacular love of her life associate
  07/15/20
whok probably did
Drunken grizzly public bath prole
  07/15/20
shit, pure shit
Flushed Preventive Strike Incel
  07/15/20
It is shocking how dated and frivolous that book seems now. ...
Embarrassed to the bone cerebral potus dysfunction
  07/15/20
titcr
Flushed Preventive Strike Incel
  07/15/20
That's always the vibe I got of this book
Dashing blood rage
  07/15/20
...
twinkling psychic cruise ship
  07/15/20
You must not have understood it. It's more relevant than ev...
boyish property filthpig
  07/15/20
i wonder why he thought cartridges would be the next medium ...
twinkling psychic cruise ship
  07/15/20
The specific technology (which feels dated as fuck) is much ...
Emerald spectacular love of her life associate
  07/15/20
yeah im not a fucking retard okay? i read 400 pages of infin...
twinkling psychic cruise ship
  07/15/20
interesting
Dashing blood rage
  07/15/20
agree and disagree. it did not predict today's social and po...
180 clown
  07/15/20
i think the fixation on addiction and substance abuse is sor...
twinkling psychic cruise ship
  07/15/20
some would even consider xo the Ultimate Entertainment
Emerald spectacular love of her life associate
  07/15/20
...
twinkling psychic cruise ship
  07/15/20
some?
180 clown
  07/15/20
...
boyish property filthpig
  07/15/20
...
Doobsian Haunting University
  07/15/20
lol fuck no i threw it in the trash after ~40% of it or so ...
clear degenerate pocket flask
  07/15/20
I got like 120 pages in and then I was like "Why the fu...
Excitant National Corn Cake
  07/15/20
yes. 30% of it is interesting, in a conventional way. the re...
Doobsian Haunting University
  07/15/20
Yes, it becomes a real page-turner around page 203. By page...
boyish property filthpig
  07/15/20
cr
twinkling psychic cruise ship
  07/15/20
...
Emerald spectacular love of her life associate
  07/15/20
Nope. Still sitting on the shelf and will probably never be ...
Cream Exhilarant Queen Of The Night
  07/15/20
Yes. It's my favorite novel and I don't just use that line t...
Emerald spectacular love of her life associate
  07/15/20
okay dave
twinkling psychic cruise ship
  07/15/20
...
Cream Exhilarant Queen Of The Night
  07/15/20
Cr. It's 1100 pages long on large pages with small type and...
boyish property filthpig
  07/15/20
the prose is godawful
Doobsian Haunting University
  07/15/20
Huge spritezero fan here. Big poaster. Full respect. You...
Emerald spectacular love of her life associate
  07/15/20
disagree
Doobsian Haunting University
  07/15/20
what books do you like
Dashing blood rage
  07/15/20
authors i like: pynchon, joyce, fitzgerald, flaubert
Doobsian Haunting University
  07/15/20
Nabokov? what do you like by Joyce?
Dashing blood rage
  07/15/20
i dig nabakov. i like everything abt joyce. have not read fi...
Doobsian Haunting University
  07/15/20
nobody has ever read finnegan's wake
twinkling psychic cruise ship
  07/15/20
No apostrophe come on man
Onyx juggernaut
  07/15/20
Harold Bloom: Asked about novelist David Foster Wallace,...
Doobsian Haunting University
  07/15/20
ins't he famous for penning a screed about western canon or ...
Emerald spectacular love of her life associate
  07/15/20
yeah
twinkling psychic cruise ship
  07/15/20
good man, but. Jewish. can't escape that
Emerald spectacular love of her life associate
  07/15/20
fair
Doobsian Haunting University
  07/15/20
I'd agree that DFW's prose style works against him at least ...
180 clown
  07/15/20
i agree--my copy of IJ has a few paragraphs and sentences m...
Doobsian Haunting University
  07/15/20
Lmao “But Stephen King is Cervantes compared with Dav...
Onyx juggernaut
  07/15/20
this critique seems pretty accurate: [T]he novel's Pynchones...
Doobsian Haunting University
  07/15/20
It is the Great American Novel
peach ticket booth faggot firefighter
  07/15/20
I became extremely annoyed with it after about 50 pages and ...
Impertinent at-the-ready round eye station
  07/15/20
That's crazy. If you're not enjoying a book you should quit...
boyish property filthpig
  07/15/20
Sometimes you gotta keep going though to make sure, e.g. Rab...
Onyx juggernaut
  07/15/20
I read it when I was unemployed, which helped a lot I think....
House-broken indian lodge
  07/15/20
it's up there w moby dick for best written work by an americ...
Balding appetizing pervert
  07/16/20
I could never get through IJ. Really enjoyed Oblivion (in p...
cruel-hearted mind-boggling mad cow disease school
  07/16/20


Poast new message in this thread



Reply Favorite

Date: July 15th, 2020 7:46 PM
Author: twinkling psychic cruise ship

i did 400 pages

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4585875&forum_id=2#40614435)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 15th, 2020 7:47 PM
Author: hateful sanctuary

I did 40

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4585875&forum_id=2#40614443)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 15th, 2020 7:49 PM
Author: twinkling psychic cruise ship

nice

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4585875&forum_id=2#40614458)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 15th, 2020 7:50 PM
Author: tan territorial crackhouse macaca

Never tried.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4585875&forum_id=2#40614474)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 15th, 2020 7:51 PM
Author: twinkling psychic cruise ship

poast moniker synergy

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4585875&forum_id=2#40614481)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 15th, 2020 7:53 PM
Author: Cheese-eating supple pit tattoo

yeah

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4585875&forum_id=2#40614492)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 15th, 2020 7:54 PM
Author: twinkling psychic cruise ship

should i read the other 600 pages

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4585875&forum_id=2#40614495)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 15th, 2020 7:58 PM
Author: Cheese-eating supple pit tattoo

eh... did you LIKE the first 400 pages? imo in some sense the rest is going to be 'kind of what you expect' in many ways, even though that sounds paradoxical for a novel that is very original, unusual and defies categorization like probably no book has since early Pynchon

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4585875&forum_id=2#40614510)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 15th, 2020 8:03 PM
Author: 180 clown

agree with this. if you don't want to put in that much time and you haven't read Oblivion, just read that instead

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4585875&forum_id=2#40614532)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 15th, 2020 8:05 PM
Author: hateful sanctuary



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4585875&forum_id=2#40614545)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 15th, 2020 8:34 PM
Author: twinkling psychic cruise ship

yeah i thought it was great but then i started reading another book or something

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4585875&forum_id=2#40614691)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 15th, 2020 7:59 PM
Author: curious step-uncle's house personal credit line

Yeah.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4585875&forum_id=2#40614516)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 15th, 2020 8:00 PM
Author: 180 clown

yeah

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4585875&forum_id=2#40614517)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 15th, 2020 8:00 PM
Author: well-lubricated thriller area

by the time i got it i didn't have a ton of time to devote to books, especially ones that long. so no.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4585875&forum_id=2#40614523)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 15th, 2020 8:05 PM
Author: odious house pistol

I did finish, after like a month and a half. I regret it.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4585875&forum_id=2#40614544)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 15th, 2020 8:44 PM
Author: Emerald spectacular love of her life associate

faggot

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4585875&forum_id=2#40614745)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 15th, 2020 8:06 PM
Author: Drunken grizzly public bath prole

whok probably did

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4585875&forum_id=2#40614553)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 15th, 2020 8:36 PM
Author: Flushed Preventive Strike Incel

shit, pure shit

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4585875&forum_id=2#40614700)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 15th, 2020 8:37 PM
Author: Embarrassed to the bone cerebral potus dysfunction

It is shocking how dated and frivolous that book seems now. We were so silly in the 90s. It was nice.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4585875&forum_id=2#40614705)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 15th, 2020 8:41 PM
Author: Flushed Preventive Strike Incel

titcr

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4585875&forum_id=2#40614726)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 15th, 2020 8:41 PM
Author: Dashing blood rage

That's always the vibe I got of this book

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4585875&forum_id=2#40614728)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 15th, 2020 8:43 PM
Author: twinkling psychic cruise ship



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4585875&forum_id=2#40614741)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 15th, 2020 8:49 PM
Author: boyish property filthpig

You must not have understood it. It's more relevant than ever.

Just this year companies have started releasing software that makes your face look better on video chats.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4585875&forum_id=2#40614774)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 15th, 2020 8:51 PM
Author: twinkling psychic cruise ship

i wonder why he thought cartridges would be the next medium for storing entertainment bullshit

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4585875&forum_id=2#40614784)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 15th, 2020 8:52 PM
Author: Emerald spectacular love of her life associate

The specific technology (which feels dated as fuck) is much less relevant than the general feelings of dread and ennui that a world of meaningless striving evokes

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4585875&forum_id=2#40614794)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 15th, 2020 8:53 PM
Author: twinkling psychic cruise ship

yeah im not a fucking retard okay? i read 400 pages of infinite jest. i know things.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4585875&forum_id=2#40614796)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 15th, 2020 9:04 PM
Author: Dashing blood rage

interesting

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4585875&forum_id=2#40614875)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 15th, 2020 8:51 PM
Author: 180 clown

agree and disagree. it did not predict today's social and political strife, but the concept of non-stop "entertainment" weaponized against us certainly resonates

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4585875&forum_id=2#40614786)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 15th, 2020 8:54 PM
Author: twinkling psychic cruise ship

i think the fixation on addiction and substance abuse is sort of prescient

lots of people living in despair with some dying

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4585875&forum_id=2#40614801)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 15th, 2020 8:55 PM
Author: Emerald spectacular love of her life associate

some would even consider xo the Ultimate Entertainment

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4585875&forum_id=2#40614805)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 15th, 2020 8:55 PM
Author: twinkling psychic cruise ship



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4585875&forum_id=2#40614809)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 15th, 2020 8:57 PM
Author: 180 clown

some?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4585875&forum_id=2#40614824)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 15th, 2020 11:38 PM
Author: boyish property filthpig



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4585875&forum_id=2#40615643)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 15th, 2020 8:59 PM
Author: Doobsian Haunting University



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4585875&forum_id=2#40614840)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 15th, 2020 8:37 PM
Author: clear degenerate pocket flask

lol fuck no i threw it in the trash after ~40% of it or so

swordmo keeps telling me its a work of art but what does he know

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4585875&forum_id=2#40614706)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 15th, 2020 8:37 PM
Author: Excitant National Corn Cake

I got like 120 pages in and then I was like "Why the fuck am i reading this?" and then stopped.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4585875&forum_id=2#40614707)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 15th, 2020 8:37 PM
Author: Doobsian Haunting University

yes. 30% of it is interesting, in a conventional way. the rest is garbage

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4585875&forum_id=2#40614710)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 15th, 2020 8:39 PM
Author: boyish property filthpig

Yes, it becomes a real page-turner around page 203. By page 400 you kind of understand what's going on.

I mean that sincerely. I have really strong visual memories from that book. It's really really good.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4585875&forum_id=2#40614719)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 15th, 2020 8:40 PM
Author: twinkling psychic cruise ship

cr

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4585875&forum_id=2#40614724)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 15th, 2020 8:44 PM
Author: Emerald spectacular love of her life associate



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4585875&forum_id=2#40614753)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 15th, 2020 8:45 PM
Author: Cream Exhilarant Queen Of The Night

Nope. Still sitting on the shelf and will probably never be read

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4585875&forum_id=2#40614756)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 15th, 2020 8:47 PM
Author: Emerald spectacular love of her life associate

Yes. It's my favorite novel and I don't just use that line to get laid (but it has worked)

DFW has a rare command over the written word, and it's a joy to experience. It's a book that makes you FEEL and THINK but lets you decide how much energy you'll put into these charges. And the reward is great, if the effort is there.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4585875&forum_id=2#40614761)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 15th, 2020 8:47 PM
Author: twinkling psychic cruise ship

okay dave

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4585875&forum_id=2#40614765)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 15th, 2020 8:48 PM
Author: Cream Exhilarant Queen Of The Night



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4585875&forum_id=2#40614769)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 15th, 2020 8:48 PM
Author: boyish property filthpig

Cr. It's 1100 pages long on large pages with small type and every sentence is perfectly crafted.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4585875&forum_id=2#40614772)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 15th, 2020 8:50 PM
Author: Doobsian Haunting University

the prose is godawful

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4585875&forum_id=2#40614776)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 15th, 2020 8:51 PM
Author: Emerald spectacular love of her life associate

Huge spritezero fan here. Big poaster. Full respect.

You're wrong.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4585875&forum_id=2#40614785)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 15th, 2020 8:53 PM
Author: Doobsian Haunting University

disagree

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4585875&forum_id=2#40614795)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 15th, 2020 9:03 PM
Author: Dashing blood rage

what books do you like

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4585875&forum_id=2#40614871)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 15th, 2020 9:07 PM
Author: Doobsian Haunting University

authors i like: pynchon, joyce, fitzgerald, flaubert

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4585875&forum_id=2#40614898)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 15th, 2020 9:08 PM
Author: Dashing blood rage

Nabokov?

what do you like by Joyce?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4585875&forum_id=2#40614906)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 15th, 2020 9:10 PM
Author: Doobsian Haunting University

i dig nabakov. i like everything abt joyce. have not read finnegan's wake tho

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4585875&forum_id=2#40614916)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 15th, 2020 9:30 PM
Author: twinkling psychic cruise ship

nobody has ever read finnegan's wake

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4585875&forum_id=2#40615029)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 15th, 2020 11:46 PM
Author: Onyx juggernaut

No apostrophe come on man

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4585875&forum_id=2#40615657)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 15th, 2020 8:56 PM
Author: Doobsian Haunting University

Harold Bloom:

Asked about novelist David Foster Wallace, who took his own life in 2008, but who has a new book out, “The Pale King: An Unfinished Novel,” put together from manuscript chapters and files found in his computer, Bloom says, “You know, I don’t want to be offensive. But ‘Infinite Jest’ [regarded by many as Wallace’s masterpiece] is just awful. It seems ridiculous to have to say it. He can’t think, he can’t write. There’s no discernible talent.”

It’s all a clear indication, Bloom notes, of the decline of literary standards. He was upset in 2003 when the National Book Award gave a special award to Stephen King. “But Stephen King is Cervantes compared with David Foster Wallace. We have no standards left. [Wallace] seems to have been a very sincere and troubled person, but that doesn’t mean I have to endure reading him. I even resented the use of the term from Shakespeare, when Hamlet calls the king’s jester Yorick, ‘a fellow of infinite jest.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4585875&forum_id=2#40614814)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 15th, 2020 8:57 PM
Author: Emerald spectacular love of her life associate

ins't he famous for penning a screed about western canon or something

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4585875&forum_id=2#40614829)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 15th, 2020 8:59 PM
Author: twinkling psychic cruise ship

yeah

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4585875&forum_id=2#40614848)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 15th, 2020 9:00 PM
Author: Emerald spectacular love of her life associate

good man, but. Jewish. can't escape that

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4585875&forum_id=2#40614854)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 15th, 2020 9:03 PM
Author: Doobsian Haunting University

fair

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4585875&forum_id=2#40614870)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 15th, 2020 8:59 PM
Author: 180 clown

I'd agree that DFW's prose style works against him at least as often as it works for him. I think he had solid ideas and insight though

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4585875&forum_id=2#40614841)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 15th, 2020 9:02 PM
Author: Doobsian Haunting University

i agree--my copy of IJ has a few paragraphs and sentences marked up. but IJ didn't have a big, unifying idea interesting enuff to carry a book of that size. dfw's shorter, nonfiction stuff is pretty good.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4585875&forum_id=2#40614866)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 15th, 2020 11:47 PM
Author: Onyx juggernaut

Lmao

“But Stephen King is Cervantes compared with David Foster Wallace."

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4585875&forum_id=2#40615661)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 15th, 2020 8:58 PM
Author: Doobsian Haunting University

this critique seems pretty accurate: [T]he novel's Pynchonesque elements...feel rather willed and secondhand. They are impressive in the manner of a precocious child's performance at a dinner party, and, in the same way, ultimately irritating: they seem motivated, mostly, by a desire to show off."

dfw was a gen-x/poor man's pynchon

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4585875&forum_id=2#40614834)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 15th, 2020 8:58 PM
Author: peach ticket booth faggot firefighter

It is the Great American Novel

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4585875&forum_id=2#40614836)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 15th, 2020 9:13 PM
Author: Impertinent at-the-ready round eye station

I became extremely annoyed with it after about 50 pages and decided to cut my losses. This may be the only book I started and never finished. Just found it exhausting to read and not enjoyable at all.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4585875&forum_id=2#40614932)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 15th, 2020 11:40 PM
Author: boyish property filthpig

That's crazy. If you're not enjoying a book you should quit reading it and start another one. You'll never run out of good books and you might be wasting time on bad ones.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4585875&forum_id=2#40615648)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 15th, 2020 11:49 PM
Author: Onyx juggernaut

Sometimes you gotta keep going though to make sure, e.g. Rabbit tetralogy

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4585875&forum_id=2#40615664)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 15th, 2020 11:47 PM
Author: House-broken indian lodge

I read it when I was unemployed, which helped a lot I think. It's so much to absorb, and it really comes together at the end in a more rewarding way if you don't read it over, say, 3 months. The good passages in IJ are as good as anything I've ever read, like the suicide attempt, or the eschaton game, or the Mt. Dilaudid part.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4585875&forum_id=2#40615659)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 16th, 2020 9:15 AM
Author: Balding appetizing pervert

it's up there w moby dick for best written work by an america. I have read it twice. the chapter on eschatology is the best thing anyone has ever written

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4585875&forum_id=2#40616595)



Reply Favorite

Date: July 16th, 2020 11:11 AM
Author: cruel-hearted mind-boggling mad cow disease school

I could never get through IJ. Really enjoyed Oblivion (in particular commentary on GC, eg a food company naming an indulgent candy bar "Felony!" to commoditize transgression in a profitable way). And the NYT sports "Federer as religious experience" is great. Collected essays on descriptivism vs prescriptivism, consider the lobster, etc were all interesting. But he's a little self indulgent for 1100 pages? I'm sure there are passages I would enjoy.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4585875&forum_id=2#40617178)