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Trade up firms as a 3L?
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Date: September 5th, 2010 2:31 PM Author: Arousing stead Subject: Scenario: I'm a 3L with an offer from a regional NLJ250 (non-Vault). I received a callback at a V10 (NYC). Obviously the odds are that I won't get an offer at the V10 but I want to have more or less made my decision before the callback because both firms will likely be pressuring me for a quick decision. The V10 is only hiring for corp. I requested lit at my exit interviews for my SA, but so did everyone else so who knows where I'll end up if I go there. FWIW neither firm defers and AFAIK my summer class offer rate was 100%. While my summer firm pays over 120K, it's not at market and there's significant salary compression--I think I'd be a 4th year before even hitting 160K. Loans aren't an issue.
Oh, also, I really don't like NYC much at all, otherwise there would be no question. I like my current secondary market alright and it's got low COL. However, I would really like to end up permanently in another competitive secondary market (think San Fran/Boston) to which my only tie is my SO. I struck out there during OCI last year.
I'm most concerned with, in this order: Hours/QOL, money (in terms of building net worth, not salary), job security, long-term career prospects.
I guess I'm asking if turning down the V10 for my summer firm would be total career suicide. |
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Date: September 5th, 2010 2:33 PM Author: cerise thriller theater free trip go dipshit (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1415036&forum_id=2#15970343) |
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Date: September 5th, 2010 2:35 PM Author: Arousing stead Oh I'm going either way for the free food. Like I said, I just want to have more or less made a decision beforehand because the interview is scheduled pretty late and my summer firm is already pressuring me for a decision. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1415036&forum_id=2#15970360) |
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Date: September 5th, 2010 2:37 PM Author: cerise thriller theater Feel free to backstab and trade up. They would do the same to you. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1415036&forum_id=2#15970366) |
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Date: September 5th, 2010 2:48 PM Author: Arousing stead Loyalty won't keep me from picking the V10 but fear of being miserable might. I don't want to keep them waiting for a decision either way because it's just rude. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1415036&forum_id=2#15970440) |
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Date: September 5th, 2010 2:53 PM Author: cerise thriller theater You can always trade down if you can't handle it. You can never go up. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1415036&forum_id=2#15970475) |
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Date: September 5th, 2010 2:44 PM Author: trip dog poop what state is the NLJ250 firm in? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1415036&forum_id=2#15970411) |
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Date: September 5th, 2010 2:46 PM Author: Arousing stead I'm a little uncomfortable saying, I don't want to out myself. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1415036&forum_id=2#15970420) |
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Date: September 5th, 2010 2:47 PM Author: trip dog poop sorry, but that's the only way we can make this assessment. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1415036&forum_id=2#15970431) |
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Date: September 5th, 2010 2:49 PM Author: Arousing stead Why? I will say that this particular legal market has had trouble and that xoxo thinks it's a shitty place to live. I liked living here though.
ETA: The reason I'm concerned is because there aren't that many regional firms here and if you figure out the firm that as good as outs me because we had a pretty small class. |
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Date: September 5th, 2010 2:50 PM Author: trip dog poop just poast it and edit quickly. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1415036&forum_id=2#15970458) |
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Date: September 5th, 2010 2:50 PM Author: Arousing stead . (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1415036&forum_id=2#15970460) |
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Date: September 5th, 2010 2:51 PM Author: trip dog poop definitely go v10 bro (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1415036&forum_id=2#15970462) |
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Date: September 5th, 2010 2:52 PM Author: Arousing stead Reasoning? I mean, are firms here in that much trouble? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1415036&forum_id=2#15970474) |
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Date: September 5th, 2010 2:53 PM Author: trip dog poop i know nothing about the firms there, but that shithole down isn't much better than nyc as far as QOL. NYC exit options will be FAR better. how is this even a question? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1415036&forum_id=2#15970482) |
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Date: September 5th, 2010 2:58 PM Author: Arousing stead "that shithole down isn't much better than nyc as far as QOL"
This is how it's a question. The hours here seemed reasonable for Biglaw despite people at the firm having work. My impression of NYC corporate is that you have absolutely zero free time, but of course I haven't ever worked there so I could be wrong. My SO is quite skeptical of NYC and is really pressuring me to take any reduction in hours no matter how small.
Also despite xoxo's opinion I think NYC QOL generally is horrible--for instance I realized yesterday that my apartment here is larger than anything I could ever hope to afford in NYC. I checked out Craigslist for NYC prices a couple days ago and nearly had a stroke.
ETA: I think what I'm getting at is that this is the classic "the devil you know is better than the one you don't" dilemma. |
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Date: September 8th, 2010 5:37 PM Author: Cheese-eating Trailer Park Describe V10's exit option advantage. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1415036&forum_id=2#15996812) |
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Date: September 5th, 2010 2:51 PM Author: Swashbuckling costumed goyim so, philly? (this is a guess, i didn't see what you posted) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1415036&forum_id=2#15970466) |
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Date: September 8th, 2010 7:28 PM Author: Blue Mother I love how so many of you are completely malleable and don't really give a shit what type of work you do. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1415036&forum_id=2#15997715) |
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Date: September 9th, 2010 1:19 AM Author: Arousing stead Well I went into my summer thinking I absolutely wanted lit (past experiences that I won't list). Did a lot of lit work and was sick of research/briefs by the end of the first one, did a couple of corporate assignments and actually liked them better. So now I feel like it's sort of a wash--I didn't do enough corp to really be sure about my feelings towards it, and I've done enough lit to know I could tolerate it but will eventually get sick of it. Also since I told my summer firm I'd be willing to do corporate I may end up there anyway, I know people have been placed in their second choice groups before.
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Date: September 5th, 2010 3:12 PM Author: Burgundy hairy legs degenerate I think at least some of the NYC QOL issues can be ameliorated if you're open to living in Brooklyn, Queens, Jersey, Westchester, etc. People on this board will give me shit for saying this, but at my firm plenty of junior associates live in those places and they seem happy.
Anyway, I think the main issue is the "career suicide" question. If you get an offer from the v10 firm, I see no reason why you can't have a heart to heart with some partners at your summer firm, and put the question to them point blank- how will my career trajectory be different at [the summer firm]? And likewise, try to find friends/family or other trusted people at some of the elite firms in NYC.
I tend to think that the best route to go is to get training at the "top of the bar," and move elsewhere later on. But I've never been in quite your situation |
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Date: September 5th, 2010 3:28 PM Author: Arousing stead I will almost definitely be living in Brooklyn if I go to NYC although it won't be all that convenient.
Are you in NYC corporate? Do you find having a relationship/family/friends totally incompatible with your hours? I have to wonder if reports of NYC hours are exaggerated.
Sadly most of my legal contacts with anything beyond first-year associate experience are in DC, and weirdly most of them are totally opposed to my going to NYC. I think maybe approaching someone from my summer firm that I trust about exit options is tcr though. Some people left over my summer and they seemed to be doing reasonable stuff, although mostly in the same market. |
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Date: September 5th, 2010 3:36 PM Author: Burgundy hairy legs degenerate Sorry, I can't be that helpful- I'm an incoming associate at an NYC firm (and I haven't been assigned a practice group yet). Over the summer it looked like most people had pretty reasonable hours, but I summered in 2009, which was definitely a slow period for the corporate attys. But even if your worst fears are correct, it would probably be worth sticking out for a couple of years if, in fact, the exit opps are that much better. |
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Date: September 5th, 2010 3:57 PM Author: Arousing stead Bummer, yeah 2009 probably isn't an accurate data point. Thanks for the input though.
I would be willing to stick it out in a horrible work environment for a couple of years, but maybe not for long enough to take advantage of the famed exit options of the V10 as I thought you needed to make it through at least three or four years to be marketable. My SO has very different feelings on work, though, and has basically threatened to leave me if my work obligations are horrible enough. After two miserable years of law school the SO's patience is wearing thin. This is of course a personal problem. |
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Date: September 5th, 2010 4:01 PM Author: Burgundy hairy legs degenerate well, i have my own worries in that regard- got married shortly before law school, so the past three years have been no picnic. A bit worried about the toll that NYC BigLaw will take on my relationship, but it's the best (well, only) opportunity I have, so I'd like to make the best of it. good luck |
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Date: September 6th, 2010 1:21 PM Author: Arousing stead (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1415036&forum_id=2#15978142) |
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Date: September 8th, 2010 4:27 PM Author: Big Ticket Booth Foreskin Meh (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1415036&forum_id=2#15996297) |
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Date: September 8th, 2010 4:47 PM Author: wonderful university My instinct says stick with the firm you're in. The extra money won't go that far in NYC with higher COL, you'll probably have worse hours, and it sounds like you want to do lit rather than corp. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1415036&forum_id=2#15996413) |
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Date: September 9th, 2010 1:22 AM Author: Arousing stead See above, I am ambivalent about practice groups. The rest is what my instincts are telling me but there are obviously factors weighing in the other direction. I'm also increasingly worried about an impending double dip and where will be "safe." (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1415036&forum_id=2#16001161) |
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Date: September 9th, 2010 1:38 AM Author: wonderful university Safety can probably only be answered with very specific knowledge about the individual firms. There's nothing safer about a generic V10 vs a generic mid-size. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1415036&forum_id=2#16001298) |
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Date: September 9th, 2010 1:55 AM Author: Arousing stead Yeah I know, I don't want to give specific info though for obvious reasons. What I do know is that my summer firm had a few rounds of public layoffs and no-offers for 2009, and I know that some practice groups there were still a bit slow this summer. Based on this info I'm a little hesitant about my 2L firm. It sucks that there really isn't any real transparency about this stuff, and as a law student I only have the slightest idea of what metrics I should look to anyway to determine firm health. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1415036&forum_id=2#16001416) |
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Date: September 8th, 2010 5:04 PM Author: sexy very tactful gaming laptop hey, i'll take your v10 cb for corporate. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1415036&forum_id=2#15996543) |
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Date: September 9th, 2010 1:25 AM Author: Arousing stead I am aware that I am an asshole :/ (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1415036&forum_id=2#16001186) |
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Date: September 9th, 2010 1:59 AM Author: sexy very tactful gaming laptop i'd love to trade up ofs. i applied to the v10 corporate but i realize that it's only for the lulz - you must have sweet stats or sweet flame (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1415036&forum_id=2#16001440) |
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Date: September 9th, 2010 10:13 AM Author: Arousing stead Not flame, pretty good stats. I had a lot of callbacks last year but only got one offer, like I said I made the mistake of interviewing in a super small competitive market.
And I thought this interview was for lulz, but apparently not. |