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NY biglaw summer placement - some results
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Date: April 17th, 2006 9:26 PM Author: adventurous copper giraffe fortuitous meteor So I started putting some of the summer class thread into Excel, and here's some early results.
So far I put in a group I'll call "Vault 7" which consists of Wachtell, Cravath, S&C, Skadden, DPW, STB, and Cleary, NY offices only. Yes, this is rather arbitrary but whatever.
Vault 7 NY summer class composition: Columbia (15.6%), Harvard (14.5%), NYU (12.8%), Yale (8.4%), Penn (5.6%), Stanford (3.6%), Cornell (3.6%), Duke (3.3%), Chicago (3.1%), GULC (3%), UVA (2.8%), Fordham (2.7%), Michigan (2.7%), Boalt (1.9%), Northwestern (1.6%), Texas (1.4%), Brooklyn (1.25%), etc.
Vault 7 placement as % of 1L class size: Yale (27.1%), Columbia (26.5%), NYU (18.3%), Harvard (16.7%), Penn (14.8%), Stanford (13.3%), Cornell (11.9%), Duke (10.6%), Chicago (10.4%), Fordham (5.26%), UVA (4.8%), Michigan (4.6%), Boalt (4.5%), GULC (4.2%), Northwestern (4.1%), Texas (2%), etc.
One interesting thing might be to adjust for this as a % of the class working in NY (or "mid-Atlantic region"), since I know school websites often have this info. Maybe (much) later.
Also note that there's some unknowns in the data (not too many, thanks to everybody for their help) -- 9 missing for S&C, 9 for DPW, and 1 for Skadden. Some people have said a lot of these might be Fordham, but otherwise I don't think it'll change the numbers too much. |
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Date: April 17th, 2006 9:33 PM Author: Translucent stag film police squad very interesting. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=401381&forum_id=2#5600943) |
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Date: April 17th, 2006 9:34 PM Author: chocolate base Good work. Columbia is awesome. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=401381&forum_id=2#5600947) |
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Date: April 17th, 2006 9:37 PM Author: adventurous copper giraffe fortuitous meteor I was surprised Yale wasn't much lower, but I guess its class is even smaller than I thought. However I'm pretty sure that if I widen this to include Latham, Paul Weiss, Shearman, Kirkland, etc. then Yale would drop significantly. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=401381&forum_id=2#5600964) |
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Date: April 18th, 2006 9:15 AM Author: Soul-stirring Pale Address Voyeur Yes, and if you widened it to include the Jersey City office of Danza, Stallone, & Digiorno it would probably drop even lower. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=401381&forum_id=2#5603346) |
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Date: April 17th, 2006 10:08 PM Author: Know-it-all vigorous becky twinkling uncleanness Subject: I guess we knew it all along Cornell is a T7 (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=401381&forum_id=2#5601170) |
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Date: April 18th, 2006 10:05 AM Author: yellow sex offender I used numbers from princeton review. Here are the results. (I took the percentage of the 1L class at V7s and divided it by the percentage heading to that region. If this is wrong, let me know.)
Yale sends 27.1% of its 1L class to V7; 31% end up in the mid-altantic region. Approx. 87% are at V7s. Stanford sends 13.3% of its 1L class to V7; 16% end up in the mid-altantic region. Approx. 83% are at V7s. Chicago sends 10.4% of its 1L class to V7; 15% end up in the mid-altantic region. Approx. 69% are at V7s. Texas sends 2% of its 1L class to V7; 3% end up in the mid-altantic region. Approx. 67% are at V7s. Boalt sends 4.5% of its 1L class to V7; 7% end up in the mid-altantic region. Approx. 64% are at V7s. Harvard sends 16.7% of its 1L class to V7; 30% end up in the mid-altantic region. Approx. 56% are at V7s. Columbia sends 26.5% of its 1L class to V7; 70% end up in the mid-altantic region. Approx. 38% are at V7s. NYU sends 18.3% of its 1L class to V7; 69% end up in the mid-altantic region. Approx. 27% are at V7s. Northwestern sends 4.1% of its 1L class to V7; 17% end up in the mid-altantic region. Approx. 24% are at V7s. GULC sends 4.2% of its 1L class to V7; 21% end up in the mid-altantic region. Approx. 20% are at V7s. Michigan sends 4.6% of its 1L class to V7; 23% end up in the mid-altantic region. Approx. 20% are at V7s. Fordham sends 4.8% of its 1L class to V7; 92% end up in the mid-altantic region. Approx. 5% are at V7s.
* Princeton Review data is likely a few years out of date. It did not have data for Penn, Cornell, and Duke. |
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Date: April 18th, 2006 11:39 AM Author: Wonderful at-the-ready sanctuary Where's your messiah now, Columbia? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=401381&forum_id=2#5603997) |
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Date: April 18th, 2006 3:58 PM Author: adventurous copper giraffe fortuitous meteor Good work, this is interesting. Obviously there will be variations in preferences from year to year, so comparing preferences from one year with actual placements from another year can only tell you so much.
The other point is what nutella and I were discussing below, which is just how inflexible these preferences are. Another way of reading this would be, 67% of Texas grads would not work in NY unless they were at a Vault 7 firm. Yes, there's a lot of assumptions that go into making that statement, but if you think about it, it is quite possibly understating it. |
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Date: April 18th, 2006 4:05 PM Author: yellow sex offender Yes, it's a little sloppy.
It's tough to separate the locational bias. If you're in NYC already you might take a job offer with a particular firm from NYC, instead of incurring the costs to take a similiar offer elsewhere. This'll play out for all the local markets. |
Date: April 17th, 2006 9:41 PM Author: anal pit What are the advantages of going to a Vault 7 for career placement ten years out? Do they tend to have larger salaries ten years out compared to someone at a firm ranked around 50? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=401381&forum_id=2#5600984) |
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Date: April 17th, 2006 9:49 PM Author: Bistre 180 resort boltzmann Your odds of making partner at a top firm or a ~50 firm are minimal, but the top firms generally have much larger PPPs. The better your firm, the more exit options you'll have. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=401381&forum_id=2#5601042) |
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Date: April 17th, 2006 9:54 PM Author: provocative gaming laptop there really aren't any (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=401381&forum_id=2#5601076) |
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Date: April 17th, 2006 10:15 PM Author: adventurous copper giraffe fortuitous meteor I should mention that while I said "Vault 7" is rather arbitrary, I might've meant that more as a disclaimer to avoid arguments. Actually there are some reasons why you might clump this group together based on clientele, PPP, etc.
Here's a source I regard fairly highly, who names some of these firms "bulge bracket" firms, including specifically STB, DPW, Cleary, and Cravath (and Cahill). "Unbeatable prestige, making them law-firm-land's equivalent of "bulge bracket" investment banks."
http://www.bmacewen.com/blog/archives/2005/11/the_optimal_par.html http://www.bmacewen.com/blog/archives/2006/01/26_of_your_prof_1.html |
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Date: January 31st, 2007 11:09 PM Author: flickering sick center It's silly trying to match up investment banks and law firms w/r/t prestige. The business models are simply too different to account for, e.g., Munger, Susman, Keker, W&C, etc.
And you can't differentiate by saying some stupid shit like "well those are like hedge funds." No, they're not. |
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Date: April 17th, 2006 9:50 PM Author: olive bateful parlour i always appreciate stuff like this but self-selection is such a large factor here that it almost makes the info useless. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=401381&forum_id=2#5601046) |
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Date: April 17th, 2006 9:55 PM Author: adventurous copper giraffe fortuitous meteor Yeah, if we adjusted for % working in the region, that should be much more useful. Actually now I remember that GTO's study had this info (which I think was from US News), so it should be easy to adjust.
EDIT: Actually, if somebody could give me this info, I'd really appreciate it. If it's online, I'm guessing you can copy/paste from the site or something? |
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Date: April 17th, 2006 11:55 PM Author: Territorial Mind-boggling Tanning Salon Background Story i did something similar for chicago. i'll email it to you... i havent double checked, but oh well (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=401381&forum_id=2#5601833) |
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Date: April 18th, 2006 12:06 AM Author: adventurous copper giraffe fortuitous meteor Got it, thanks. I picked NY because the info seemed pretty complete. I don't know Chicago firms too well but looks like Winston and McDermott might be pretty significant. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=401381&forum_id=2#5601873) |
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Date: April 18th, 2006 12:29 AM Author: Jet locus quadroon around 30-35 2Ls from stanford are working in ny this summer outta around 180 in the class. i imagine there are some 1Ls too, but chances are they are not in the top 7 firms. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=401381&forum_id=2#5601980) |
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Date: April 18th, 2006 12:34 AM Author: adventurous copper giraffe fortuitous meteor Thanks. I counted 23 from Stanford in my "Vault 7" list, so that's a pretty high percentage. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=401381&forum_id=2#5601996) |
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Date: April 18th, 2006 12:58 AM Author: Jet locus quadroon that seems about right.
i know you used vault 7 cutoff, but if you included debevoise (2), paul weiss (4-5, not sure) and weil (2), that's basically everyone going to ny. |
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Date: April 18th, 2006 1:03 AM Author: adventurous copper giraffe fortuitous meteor Yeah, see below. Pretty impressive.
Still we're sort of assuming (and GTO made this assumption as well) that people are inflexible about their regional preferences. I have to wonder to what extent that's true. For example at CLS those of us interested in the West Coast will often interview at NY firms as well. If somebody doesn't get the Cali offers they wanted, they may well decide that they'd rather be at e.g. Simpson or Cleary in NY than Pillsbury in LA. |
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Date: April 18th, 2006 1:14 AM Author: Jet locus quadroon from what i know, people are not inflexible about their preferences. a large number of people are splitting west/east coast, including about 1/3 of the ny people. i would say a large percentage of the class interviewed in multiple cities and were open to a bunch of markets and decided after seeing what offers they got and where they fit in. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=401381&forum_id=2#5602154) |
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Date: April 18th, 2006 1:29 AM Author: adventurous copper giraffe fortuitous meteor Yes, that makes sense. Stanford's class is small and I can imagine their 2Ls would be in demand in NY. I was personally rather inflexible -- I took an LA office over an arguably "better" NY firm -- but many of my classmates interviewing in Cali were open to staying in NY if the perceived discrepancy was big enough. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=401381&forum_id=2#5602221) |
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Date: April 18th, 2006 12:42 AM Author: Gold native faggotry Great work. Is there enough data on that monstrous thread to draw any conclusions about LA or CA markets? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=401381&forum_id=2#5602031) |
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Date: April 18th, 2006 12:49 AM Author: adventurous copper giraffe fortuitous meteor Can't do LA without OMM and GDC, although otherwise the data that's there is pretty good.
SF and Silicon Valley are missing a lot. |
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Date: April 18th, 2006 12:56 AM Author: adventurous copper giraffe fortuitous meteor I ran another set of firms, which now includes the V7 from above plus Latham, Paul Weiss, Shearman, Kirkland, Debevoise, and Weil (13 firms).
A whopping 43.7% of Columbia's class is at these 13 firms, followed by Yale (33.7%), NYU (31%), Harvard (26.8%), Penn (21.4%), Cornell (19.7%), Stanford (19.7%), Chicago (18.2%), Duke (16.6%), and Georgetown (11.43%).
Incidentally, this includes 34 Stanford 2Ls, so if nutella is correct then almost every Stanford 2L working in NY will be at one of these 13 firms.
EDIT: I'm not sure it's worth it to add any more NY summer classes, since it seems after this Harvard, Yale, and Stanford basically taper off and the list becomes more like the NLJ total biglaw placement list posted below. |
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Date: April 18th, 2006 1:02 AM Author: Navy Site That number for Columbia is stunning. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=401381&forum_id=2#5602097) |
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Date: April 18th, 2006 1:04 AM Author: Thriller buff national haunted graveyard Wow, that's nuts. Columbia may be a biglaw factory, but they're pretty fucking good at it. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=401381&forum_id=2#5602108) |
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Date: April 18th, 2006 1:09 AM Author: adventurous copper giraffe fortuitous meteor I might be a bit off on the %, since I'm using the ABA's 1L class size data, which obviously changes a bit when you throw transfers in/out of the mix.
Since I'm actually at CLS I can call up the exact number of 2Ls, which is 422, or 44 more than the ABA's 1L class size number. This drops the % down to 39.1%, but it's still a lot higher than the others.
Anyway unless I can get every school's actual 2L class size (source anywhere?), I figure I might as well just be consistent with the data. |
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Date: April 18th, 2006 1:12 AM Author: Hilarious bronze patrolman hospital Do you know how many (total) CLS people work in NYC by any chance?
I know that information may be hard to get for other schools but I think that figure would be more informative - % of people working in "V13" NYC firms/office out of total number of people working in NYC. |
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Date: April 18th, 2006 1:15 AM Author: adventurous copper giraffe fortuitous meteor No idea. I mentioned getting the data from US News which has regional placement % (this is what GTO used in his study) but that would be for a "mid-Atlantic region" and not NYC, and also preferences will obviously change from class to class.
Also see my comment above about how inflexible these regional preferences are. Probably doesn't matter in Columbia or Stanford's case, but might be a bigger deal at a school not located in a major market. |
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Date: April 18th, 2006 1:11 AM Author: anal pit This is not surprising. It beats every school in biglaw placement according to this list.
http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNLJ.jsp?id=1126256708738 |
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Date: April 18th, 2006 1:25 AM Author: adventurous copper giraffe fortuitous meteor Yeah, but since that survey is based on top firms by size, it's interesting to note the difference between Columbia and Northwestern when you look at just a specific grouping of top firms. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=401381&forum_id=2#5602198) |
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Date: April 18th, 2006 1:22 AM Author: adventurous copper giraffe fortuitous meteor Here's another way to look at these numbers.
FOUR schools -- Columbia, Harvard, NYU, and Yale -- make up over 50% (51.4%) of my "NY Vault 7" summer classes. These same four schools make up 48% of the 13 firms in my second list (adding Penn puts it over 50%).
There are NINE schools with over 10% of their class in this Vault 7: Yale, Columbia, NYU, Harvard, Penn, Stanford, Cornell, Duke, Chicago. The next one is Fordham at 5.3%.
When you widen it to my 13 firms, you can also add Georgetown with over 10% in top NY firms, with Fordham at 9.3%. |
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Date: April 18th, 2006 1:24 AM Author: swollen chad small correction - NINE schools, not EIGHT? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=401381&forum_id=2#5602194) |
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Date: April 18th, 2006 1:26 AM Author: adventurous copper giraffe fortuitous meteor You're right, I'll fix that. (I didn't have it sorted right in the spreadsheet.) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=401381&forum_id=2#5602201) |
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Date: April 18th, 2006 2:04 AM Author: Flushed menage degenerate unbelievable post. i wonder how factoring in regional practice by school would affect the likes of Mich, Boalt, Stanford, Duke, Northwestern, Chicago etc.
EDIT: In other words, we know H, C, N all send boat loads in absolute numbers, and Y, Ch, S have so much presTTTige their grads can do anything they want, BUT for:
Georgetown Duke Cornell UVA Northwestern Boalt Michigan
where do you have the best SHOT at getting into a Vault T7/13 in NYC (read: how far down the curve can you be)? |
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Date: April 18th, 2006 5:19 AM Author: adventurous copper giraffe fortuitous meteor Well it's interesting to note that for both my 7 and 13 firms, Fordham has more of its class in top NY biglaw than UVA, Michigan, Boalt, and Northwestern. (Fordham has more than GULC in the Vault 7, but add on those other 6 firms and GULC shoots up.) Regional preference is almost certainly a factor, but I can't really tell at a glance whether there might be a bunch of Michigan 2Ls at lower-ranked NY firms. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=401381&forum_id=2#5603077) |
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Date: April 18th, 2006 7:22 AM Author: Histrionic halford indian lodge Hazelrah, you are a god among men. Killer work, seriously.
Now, we just need one of these spreadsheets for the elite LA firms (LW, OMM, PH, GDC, MTO, and Irell...maybe Skadden & SulCrom too)
You are really doing one helluva job keeping this site a legitimate sourse of information, and not letting it spiral into degredation. I applaud you. |
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Date: April 18th, 2006 9:46 AM Author: glittery insane location Paul Hastings is not "elite" by any definition of the word of which I'm aware. SulCrom? Are you AT ALL familiar with the LA market? |
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Date: April 18th, 2006 4:04 PM Author: Histrionic halford indian lodge PH is one of the biggest firms in LA. Perhaps it should be at the bottom of that elite list, but can you name any that should be above it?
SulCrom...not a major LA player...but just try getting a job there.
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Date: April 18th, 2006 5:54 PM Author: glittery insane location Paul Hastings has fewer than 200 lawyers in LA. Sheppard Mullin is the same size. Are they elite too? I turned down my S&C callback. |
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Date: April 18th, 2006 7:37 AM Author: multi-colored area mental disorder (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=401381&forum_id=2#5603185) |
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Date: April 18th, 2006 7:49 AM Author: Histrionic halford indian lodge Believe it or not, there's a fairly substantial number of people who frequent this site that often are forced to decide between attending several elite law schools. Thus, "studies" like this do serve a purpose.
For example, seeing the raw numbers like this may confirm, among other things, that taking a scholarship at Columbia is a better choice than paying full price as HYS if you plan to practice in NYC. |
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Date: April 18th, 2006 7:51 AM Author: multi-colored area mental disorder (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=401381&forum_id=2#5603200) |
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Date: April 18th, 2006 10:21 AM Author: Territorial Mind-boggling Tanning Salon Background Story the elephant in the room is that everyone should know that if you are certain about where you want to be post-law school, then most likely you ought to go to a school in that area. i put together the numbers for chicago bc i work in the chicago market, and have always been interested in going to/staying in it. And those numbers are mostly what you would expect... but thats not to say there is no value in compiling the data. UChicago and NU dominate with approx 25% of their classes placed in the top firms, with that percent inching closing to 33% when Winston and McDermott are accounted for. What was surprising is that Michigan, Harvard and Illinois were next, but only with between 5-10% with Michigan close to 5%. I expect it to be closer to 10% with the last two firms accounted for. Either way this is probably not to say that Michigan cannot place well there - it is actually 4th, but its a far 4th and it means that when i was deciding back in the day between schools like Michigan, Columbia, Chicago, Northwestern and Virginia, with my interest in only going to Chicago to work, this is a factor that weighs against Michigan relative to UChicago and NU - In My Opinion. But if the data continues to come in, what would bear out is that Michigan probably falls to the middle of that group in other markets. Better than NU and Virginia in NYC, DC and CA, but lower than Columbia and Chicago. Also, I might be able to learn if NU's placement is prohibitively lower in these other markets to justify writing it off if I had perceived a slight chance of going to another market. If so, the decision falls to Chicago v Michigan for all markets. If not, then Chicago v NU for the Chicago market. Then I account for factors like QoL going in Michigan/NU's favor v clerkship/academic placement in Chicago's favor. But seeing the numbers helps flesh out the details. I think this is important because it goes against the grain in thinking that there is no reason (absent $$$) to choose Michigan or Northwestern over Chicago - which is what lot of people think. Having gone to UChicago and ended up with clerkships and jobs where i've worked alongside grads from both Michigan and Northwestern, I often wonder if I made the wrong decision because I found UChicago less than fun and have few fond memories - not because the people sucked (they dont, despite the common misconception), but because the school generally sucked (hyde park, competitive atmosphere, awful student population outside the law school, etc). And then i meet all these people from Michigan and Northwestern who loved their experience and they have the same jobs as me (and I graduated top 10%). |
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Date: April 18th, 2006 11:48 AM Author: Wonderful at-the-ready sanctuary "the elephant in the room is that everyone should know that if you are certain about where you want to be post-law school, then most likely you ought to go to a school in that area"
Why do you think this? GTO's study (and the #s in this thread, when corrected for geographic preferences) indicate just the opposite. |
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Date: April 18th, 2006 11:49 AM Author: Fishy razzle scourge upon the earth filthpig you're all suckers for practicing biglaw. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=401381&forum_id=2#5604046) |
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Date: April 18th, 2006 11:50 AM Author: Wonderful at-the-ready sanctuary Is real estate law at a "prestigious Chicago firm" not BIGLAW? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=401381&forum_id=2#5604053) |
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Date: April 18th, 2006 11:51 AM Author: Fishy razzle scourge upon the earth filthpig it is and I am a sucker (for now). (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=401381&forum_id=2#5604060) |
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Date: April 18th, 2006 7:57 AM Author: Buck-toothed Fluffy Parlor Subject: % in Vault 25 Rank School Hires Class % 1 Yale 100 183 54.6 2 CLS 208 410 50.7 3 Harvard 276 553 49.9 4 Chicago 84 194 43.3 5 NYU 188 437 43.0 6 SLS 63 176 35.8 7 NU 74 221 33.5 8 UPenn 79 252 31.3 9 Cornell 57 190 30.0 10 Duke 53 237 22.4 11 UMich 69 381 18.1 12 Boalt 48 320 15.0 13 GULC 99 687 14.4 14 UVA 50 355 14.1 15 UCLA 32 327 9.8 16 UT 13 466 2.8
These are the numbers I have. I might have missed a few people here and there, but here it is. The class size what the ABA listed as those graduating what ever year the most current data is for.
I should add that this data is from the summer associates thread and there isn't data from every Vault 25.
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Date: April 18th, 2006 8:59 AM Author: nudist painfully honest locale I'd love to hear Leiter's explanation for why UT places less than 3% of its students in Vault25 firms. I would think Vanderbilt and USC (and perhaps even Fordham and George Washington) could do better than that. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=401381&forum_id=2#5603302) |
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Date: April 18th, 2006 9:11 AM Author: misunderstood forum old irish cottage None of the big Texas firms, where many, many UT students go (either by self-selection or necessity -- certainly some sort of combination of both) show up until V40-50 if I recall correctly. If you looked at V25 plus, say, Baker Botts, Vinson & Elkins, and Fulbright, UT's showing would probably improve considerably. But obviously you could craft favorable data slices to make any school look better. Still, I'll bet self-selection plays a fairly strong role here. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=401381&forum_id=2#5603339) |
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Date: April 18th, 2006 9:33 AM Author: nudist painfully honest locale Ideally, it would be great to have the stats for the entire Vault 100, or perhaps even the AmLaw 200. Those two lists seem to be the proxy for what most people here consider to be "Biglaw". With info from all those firms, we could fairly accurately predict "Biglaw" placement across all top tier schools, and would have a better picture than is currently provided by the Career Services offices that fudge their placement stats to ridiculous extents. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=401381&forum_id=2#5603381) |
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Date: April 18th, 2006 11:49 AM Author: Wonderful at-the-ready sanctuary titcr (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=401381&forum_id=2#5604048) |
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Date: April 18th, 2006 9:05 AM Author: anal pit Your methodology is flawed. Everyone knows that Texas is in the top 5. Maybe you should not focus on NYC-centric law firms. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=401381&forum_id=2#5603321) |
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Date: April 18th, 2006 9:37 AM Author: Exhilarant irate box office You are on Leiter's shitlist now. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=401381&forum_id=2#5603386) |
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Date: April 18th, 2006 11:51 AM Author: Fishy razzle scourge upon the earth filthpig NU pwns Michigan, as usual. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=401381&forum_id=2#5604057) |
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Date: April 18th, 2006 4:23 PM Author: cordovan shaky bbw stage Thanks for the work Hazelrah. This thread seems to confirm the notion that if you want NYC Biglaw take Fordham over any non-T14, and the numbers are close when it comes to Georgetown V. Fordham (and some of the other T14 that dont send a lot of people to NY). Of course class size and self selection play a big role but i think this study is a good starting point for comparing schools and NYC placement. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=401381&forum_id=2#5605404) |
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Date: April 18th, 2006 4:44 PM Author: Wonderful at-the-ready sanctuary "This thread seems to confirm the notion that if you want NYC Biglaw take Fordham over any non-T14"
Uh...no. |
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Date: March 26th, 2007 1:11 PM Author: Marvelous abnormal brethren If you want to be a partner at NYC Biglaw Fordham is most likely not the way to go. I don't believe that Fordham has a equal % of partners as 1-3 year Associates we have in those firms. Also, the partners from Fordham aren't on par with those from other top schools. "On par" defined as money and influence within the firm. All partners are not created equal.
Most top firms only come to Fordham to use the students as suped up paralegals for the first few years with little or no chance at partner.
I still don't know why anyone would ever want to work at a NYC Biglaw firm. Way too many hours, no chance at a social life, and have to work with mal adjusted personalities. Unless of course, they really need the money. |
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Date: April 18th, 2006 4:45 PM Author: rose ladyboy Can someone in the know please make me feel better about UVa's placement (I'm a 0L). Excuses are welcome. Thank you. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=401381&forum_id=2#5605506) |
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Date: April 18th, 2006 4:49 PM Author: yellow sex offender UVa students are too cool for NYC. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=401381&forum_id=2#5605540) |
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Date: April 18th, 2006 5:16 PM Author: rose ladyboy ty (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=401381&forum_id=2#5605684) |
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Date: April 18th, 2006 5:15 PM Author: adventurous copper giraffe fortuitous meteor This is a response to the post above about what firms to include in a similar study on LA. I've been thinking about this (since I'm working in Cali after all) but I think it raises some interesting issues that probably applies to other markets.
There's two considerations here in picking firms. First is that I want relatively "prestigious" firms, and this is because people aren't so interested in overall biglaw placement (you can just look at school's salary info, etc for that), but getting the "top" jobs.
The other consideration is that I want firms with relatively big summer classes. This is to balance out insignificant variations and also see how big the gap is between top schools and lower schools. So for example, in the NY data, Cleary has 20 from CLS and 22 from NYU -- not a big difference -- but 1 from St Johns out of something like 80 total.
Now take Kirkland LA, with 19 summers, and the top schools are UCLA (3) and Pepperdine (3). What if Kirkland tripled its summer class size to 60? I think you might see 10 UCLA summers, but you might still see the same 3 Pepperdine summers -- but that's not the conclusion you can make when the sample size is this small.
Notice that when you do get a bigger LA summer class -- like Latham (51) and Paul Hastings (31) -- the difference between UCLA/USC and Loyola/Pepperdine is a lot more clear.
Anyway, my point is that these considerations were easy to deal with for NY firms, because the firms that have high prestige also happen to have fairly big summer classes. In LA, aside from Latham, I think most summer classes are going to be in the 15-35 range. Plus there will be a lot more debate over relative prestige. I personally think S&C and STB are as prestigious as Gibson in LA, but how about Kirkland or Sidley? Milbank vs MoFo vs. Paul Hastings? Dewey, Akin Gump, Jones Day, etc? And Quinn is always a wildcard.
I guess my short list would be Munger, Irell, Quinn, LW, GDC, OMM, S&C, STB, and Skadden. I don't know which firms I would add (or not add) after that. |
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Date: April 18th, 2006 5:19 PM Author: yellow sex offender Good discussion topics for your biglaw blog.
I have no idea what to think of L.A. |
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Date: April 18th, 2006 5:27 PM Author: maize bawdyhouse electric furnace S&C is full of Loyola and USC grads. Very few good schools. Kirkland also has three summers from Stanford. Last year there were 4 HLS, and 7 the summer before. I have no idea about STB, but I would guess it's similar to S&C in that it's mostly local. |
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Date: April 18th, 2006 5:41 PM Author: yellow sex offender For S&C, among the associate ranks, I see two from Loyola and three from USC. Doesn't sound like they're "full of them". Other schools: 0 Yale, 2 Stanford, 3 Harvard, 1 Columbia, 0 NYU, 1 Fordham; 1 New York Law School; 2 Boalt; 2 UCLA.
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Date: April 18th, 2006 5:45 PM Author: maize bawdyhouse electric furnace Yes, 6 total from HYSCCN, while 7 from Loyola, USC, and UCLA. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=401381&forum_id=2#5605861) |
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Date: April 18th, 2006 5:51 PM Author: yellow sex offender How does "S&C is full of Loyola and USC grads." become "Loyola, USC, and UCLA"? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=401381&forum_id=2#5605899) |
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Date: April 18th, 2006 5:56 PM Author: maize bawdyhouse electric furnace Um, because I was going from my recollection, not directly from their website? The point stands, which was that SulCrom hires primarily from local schools, not top schools. |
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Date: April 18th, 2006 5:45 PM Author: chocolate base "New York Law School"
What the fuck? They can't find a closer TTT to recruit from? |
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Date: April 18th, 2006 5:33 PM Author: chocolate base I'd be very interested to see the numbers plugged for LA. The list of firms looks good, except isn't S&C a very small office?
One way to balance significant variations is to combine data from the past 2 or 3 summer classes. But I don't know if we have access to that information. |
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Date: April 18th, 2006 6:19 PM Author: onyx ratface Statistically speaking, I wouldnt worry about the small number thing so much, it should even out over a group of 10 firms. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=401381&forum_id=2#5606073) |
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Date: April 18th, 2006 7:00 PM Author: glittery insane location "Now take Kirkland LA, with 19 summers, and the top schools are UCLA (3) and Pepperdine (3). What if Kirkland tripled its summer class size to 60? I think you might see 10 UCLA summers, but you might still see the same 3 Pepperdine summers -- but that's not the conclusion you can make when the sample size is this small." The info for the previous two years of classes is online. When aggregated, you have 50 data points: Harvard (12) UCLA (7) Stanford (4) Arizona (4) USC (3) NYU (3) Pepperdine (3) Columbia (2) Boalt (1) Duke (1) GULC (1) Chicago (1) Michigan (1) Minnesota (1) Emory (1) William & Mary (1) Indiana (1) DePaul (1) Loyola (1) BYU (1)
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Date: April 18th, 2006 7:21 PM Author: adventurous copper giraffe fortuitous meteor Good point, I forgot Kirkland keeps its summer class lists on its website. The patterns do become more pronounced when you aggregate them like that, but this is basically what makes me cautious about using just one year's data.
But stanlee's post above might be correct that the differences will even out once we add up a bunch of firms. The NY V7 firms totaled 640 summers, and LA would only be like a third or fourth of that, but that might be enough. |
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Date: April 18th, 2006 6:23 PM Author: Doobsian coiffed spot Perhaps it's time for the Fordham haters to STFU - especially given that there are a number of Fordham students still not accounted for in the V7. How'd ya like them apples!!!!! (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=401381&forum_id=2#5606108) |
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Date: April 24th, 2006 3:54 AM Author: brindle people who are hurt no one hates fordham (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=401381&forum_id=2#5640620) |
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Date: August 28th, 2006 9:37 PM Author: adventurous copper giraffe fortuitous meteor I liked this old thread, and I was showing it to a 1L recently so a bump for those interested. Sadly, never got the summer class data for Gibson and O'Melveny LA to figure out some LA stats. If anybody wants to help out now that the summer's over and you all have your offers, I'd still be interested in doing it. Just put them up on lawfirmaddict's page: http://lawfirmaddict.blogspot.com/ and give me heads up. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=401381&forum_id=2#6516458) |
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Date: August 29th, 2006 12:23 AM Author: yellow sex offender LFA should add a link to this thread on his blog. (And any other thread where this type of stuff is compiled.) This stuff is too useless to be permanently lost (unless someone remembers the thread titles).
Maybe you could tell him Superman... I mean, Clark Kent. ;) |
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Date: August 29th, 2006 12:28 AM Author: aromatic church associate It won't be permanently lost. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=401381&forum_id=2#6517701) |
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Date: August 29th, 2006 8:48 AM Author: yellow sex offender Maybe "difficult to find" is a better phrase. It'll be in the database, but unless we have someone recall the thread name it's buried. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=401381&forum_id=2#6518751) |
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Date: August 29th, 2006 12:34 AM Author: Irradiated state wagecucks You rang? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=401381&forum_id=2#6517754) |
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Date: August 29th, 2006 8:49 AM Author: yellow sex offender Could you add a section to your blog that contains links to useful threads like this? Thanks.
... And why don't we see you and Hazelrah in the same place at the same time? |
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Date: August 29th, 2006 8:52 AM Author: Irradiated state wagecucks I can do the first. This thread, any others? Give me some time and I'll be happy to do it.
I can't answer the second. But I don't wear eyeglasses, if that helps. |
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Date: August 29th, 2006 8:59 AM Author: yellow sex offender I'll search through the archives later, and start a thread with some links for you. Thanks.
No, glasses, eh? I think Hazelrah does... |
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Date: January 31st, 2007 7:20 PM Author: violent half-breed are clerkships accounted for in this? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=401381&forum_id=2#7520446) |
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Date: January 31st, 2007 10:50 PM Author: adventurous copper giraffe fortuitous meteor This was for summer classes (mostly 2Ls), not new associates. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=401381&forum_id=2#7521871) |