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Biglaw salary over time
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Date: May 20th, 2025 4:00 PM Author: Glittery Abusive University Jew 2007 to 2015: 160k
2016 to 2017: 180k
2018 to 2020: 190k
2021: 205k
2022 to 2023: 215k
2024 to 2025: 225k
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Date: May 20th, 2025 4:02 PM Author: 180 azn range Pre-2007 $125k (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5727948&forum_id=2#48948225) |
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Date: May 20th, 2025 4:02 PM Author: arousing mint liquid oxygen CR (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5727948&forum_id=2#48948227) |
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Date: May 20th, 2025 4:17 PM Author: Exhilarant Stag Film NCR. It was $145 for a time. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5727948&forum_id=2#48948284) |
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Date: May 20th, 2025 7:17 PM Author: Passionate telephone station (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5727948&forum_id=2#48948793) |
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Date: May 22nd, 2025 2:08 PM Author: Judas Jones (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5727948&forum_id=2#48954030) |
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Date: May 20th, 2025 4:57 PM Author: anal roast beef 97-2005 was 125k, Irell and Quinn went to 135 in 2005, big salary war was 2007 that culminated in NY to 160. The crazy thing is the WSGR led jump to 125k in 97. Before that white shoe NYC firms were under 100k. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5727948&forum_id=2#48948399) |
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Date: May 20th, 2025 5:18 PM Author: sienna unholy office dog poop lol @ Gen X (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5727948&forum_id=2#48948464) |
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Date: May 20th, 2025 5:23 PM Author: anal roast beef *leans into mic*
While they eventually had to develop/attach to a large book in the 2010s, Gen Xers in biglaw got a much easier path to partnership and got to be wizards of efficiency as juniors and mid levels as long as they could operate basic word processing software. I worked at two v10s in the 00s and both were lousy with Gen Xers in their late 30s/early 40s who never would’ve been recruited as associates by the standards the firm had in the 00s, were generally at best mediocre lawyers, and who have carved out comfy little spots as protected service partners for big swinging dick boomers. They were about the only lawyers at the firms being paid in rough proportion to their market value and productivity. |
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Date: May 21st, 2025 7:15 AM Author: fear-inspiring shimmering base i am a late GenXer (1978) and this sounds right. i made partner at a lower end biglaw firm (baker hostetler) in 2017. i made it because a big swinging dick rainmaker backed me. i apparently JUST made it. and the year after i made it, he tried to put another guy up and the firm dinged him bc he had no business.
a guy 6-7 years older than me (great lawyer, but no business) got put up there as nonequity after 7 years and promoted to equity after 2 years like clockwork, even though he had zero business and has zero business today (he could have a big book but he's a chill stoner breh).
i got in just before the door closed on me. and a year after i left i tried to go back to the biglaw firm. the rainmaker pushed hard for it, but i got dinged because i didn't have more than $2 mil in business. as it turns out, i have about that much now. glad i didn't make it back though bc i'll make almost $900k at my non-biglol boutique firm if my book does that well this year, but i digress. |
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Date: May 21st, 2025 11:32 AM Author: .....;;,,.........;.;.;.;.,;,;,;.;.;,; You’re my age roughly, ie late Gen X. We were still in the zone of danger for ITE, though if you stayed at one place and became a profitable midlevel you were largely fine (as opposed to eg lateraling in 2007). But imagine the career path of a dude born in 1972. Graduates law school just as the WSGR salary war starts, spend the 7-8 years to partnership literally working for partners who insist on printing every email and who have secretaries that still use typewriters. Being able to do simple word processing tasks is like magic to the people who decide the fate of your career, and that’s just Word. If you actually developed any kind of facility with the idiotic dinosaur software that was on its way out like Word Perfect and Lotus Notes you were indispensable to these old fuckers. I had an elder Gen X partner tell me a story about the first time he showed Deltaview to the partner who sent him all his work and he said it was like old bro had a 5 minute long orgasm, just gasping and moaning incoherently while he poured over the document line by line and kept asking what each color meant. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5727948&forum_id=2#48950656) |
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Date: May 20th, 2025 4:02 PM Author: arousing mint liquid oxygen what's the takeaway? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5727948&forum_id=2#48948226) |
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Date: May 20th, 2025 5:37 PM Author: razzmatazz peach multi-billionaire casino https://imgur.com/a/Z7LqCQR (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5727948&forum_id=2#48948532) |
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Date: May 20th, 2025 8:41 PM Author: Exhilarant Stag Film 180 (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5727948&forum_id=2#48949192) |
Date: May 20th, 2025 4:03 PM Author: fear-inspiring shimmering base poop on my penis
not flame |
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Date: May 20th, 2025 4:10 PM Author: Burgundy submissive international law enforcement agency point (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5727948&forum_id=2#48948246) |
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Date: May 20th, 2025 4:10 PM Author: Burgundy submissive international law enforcement agency point Now do V50, V25, V10 PPP and RPL over the same period and get ready to laugh your ass off. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5727948&forum_id=2#48948245) |
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Date: May 20th, 2025 4:25 PM Author: mahogany stage faggotry (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5727948&forum_id=2#48948315) |
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Date: May 20th, 2025 4:21 PM Author: Exhilarant Stag Film $160 in 2007 is $250 in 2025, adjusting for inflation. So, current big law salaries are well below what they were, inflation adjusted, in the past. That's on top of a worse working environment, the partnership ladder getting pulled up, and wild revenue per lawyer and profit per partner figures. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5727948&forum_id=2#48948293) |
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Date: May 20th, 2025 5:00 PM Author: brass property Nobody going into one of these firms had a reasonable shot of getting partner since about the class of 1993 (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5727948&forum_id=2#48948417) |
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Date: May 20th, 2025 5:18 PM Author: anal roast beef I don’t have hard data to back this up, but my clear memory is that by 2007 they knew they were overhiring and were blatantly looking at half of each class of juniors as expendable and likely to be gone in three years, and then ITE happened and pulled that timeline in significantly. The other consequence of ITE is that the firms realized 1) that they paid no penalty with clients or schools/students for the layoffs, and 2) partners with large books were all that mattered to maintaining overall firm health/financials. So the last 15 years has effectively been a war among firms for books at least as large as the 30th largest book they currently have, and every other expense including other partners’ draws should be subservient to the goal of poaching as many big books as possible. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5727948&forum_id=2#48948463) |
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Date: May 20th, 2025 5:24 PM Author: Crawly abode Only the top 1% in biglaw makes more money on an inflation adjusted basis, and they make way, way more. The bottom 99% makes less. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5727948&forum_id=2#48948479) |
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Date: May 20th, 2025 5:24 PM Author: sienna unholy office dog poop Inflation is nuts imo. And the pay doesn’t go up as fast bc “number seems too high imo.” This forces Losers to job hop constantly in order to pay rent (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5727948&forum_id=2#48948480) |
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Date: May 20th, 2025 5:25 PM Author: Idiotic ungodly center mediation $26K in MFH when I started. $17-18K in Boston. $15K +/- in midwest. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5727948&forum_id=2#48948483) |
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Date: May 20th, 2025 5:28 PM Author: brass property Where did it all go? What was rent back then? $400? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5727948&forum_id=2#48948496) |
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Date: May 20th, 2025 5:31 PM Author: Idiotic ungodly center mediation Not sure about NYC. I was paying $230/mo during law school for 2 br/1 bath half of two family. A starter house in a nice Boston suburb was $50-60K. This house was $60K. I made an offer for $57K which was rejected.https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/84-Jason-St-Arlington-MA-02476/56401754_zpid/
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Date: May 20th, 2025 5:40 PM Author: brass property So 3 years’ salary. Still expensive relative to pay. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5727948&forum_id=2#48948548) |
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Date: May 20th, 2025 7:53 PM Author: motley flirting fortuitous meteor institution Makes sense. Boston was surprisingly affordable in the 70s. A gritty city with nice suburbs. My parents are the same age as you and bought a similar house in a similar upmarket Baltimore neighborhood for just about $57k. Sold it a few years back for 850k. The same house in Boston is probably $1.8M
The *real* real estate story is how the country went from having uniform housing prices across almost all comparable metro areas nationally to a sharply divided two tier American real estate market with some metros being substantially more expensive than others. I do know for a fact you could buy a pleasant house with sea view in coastal Orange County CA for 50-70k in the 1970s and those are all starting at $1.8M now and going up. |
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Date: May 20th, 2025 8:22 PM Author: Idiotic ungodly center mediation Yes, in the mid 70s a modest home in a no-name Boston suburb was $35K. We ended up buying a tiny house in Lexington for $50K. $1M now. Some metro areas are insanely expensive. Our old undistinguished Palo Alto house is $5.8M according to Zillow. I remember being recruited in 1969 by a company in San Diego. One of their selling points was that San Diego housing prices were below the national average. Argh! (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5727948&forum_id=2#48949057) |
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Date: May 21st, 2025 7:43 AM Author: Nofapping carnelian water buffalo lol (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5727948&forum_id=2#48950173) |
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Date: May 20th, 2025 5:27 PM Author: razzmatazz peach multi-billionaire casino Now do in real dollars (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5727948&forum_id=2#48948494) |
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Date: May 20th, 2025 5:35 PM Author: razzmatazz peach multi-billionaire casino LMFAO, HOLY SHIT:
https://imgur.com/a/Z7LqCQR |
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Date: May 20th, 2025 7:56 PM Author: contagious mustard dingle berry sound barrier i'm gay (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5727948&forum_id=2#48948942) |
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Date: May 20th, 2025 5:36 PM Author: House-broken Coral Location Gaming Laptop Most people in biglaw last 3-5 years, pay off their $300k in school debt, and leave.
The small proportion who stay beyond year 5 will never make equity partner. Life can still be objectively “good” for them while it lasts but as long as they lack a book it is always precarious—they’re always at risk of being pushed out even with the rise of permanent nonequity positions.
Biglaw in the last 20 years has become a giant pyramid scheme, that’s it. As someone else noted above, the top 1% (I’ll be generous and say 5-10%) of biglaw is getting very, very rich. For everyone else, it’s materially worse now vs 20 years ago. |
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Date: May 20th, 2025 5:37 PM Author: razzmatazz peach multi-billionaire casino https://imgur.com/a/Z7LqCQR (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5727948&forum_id=2#48948534) |
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Date: May 20th, 2025 5:39 PM Author: House-broken Coral Location Gaming Laptop Right. Which corresponds with biglaw equity partnerships no longer seeing associates as the future equity partners of the firm. They’re billing units to squeeze as much profit from as possible until they quit. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5727948&forum_id=2#48948543) |
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Date: May 20th, 2025 5:42 PM Author: razzmatazz peach multi-billionaire casino I dunno, most of the people I know who made it five years at an V50 and wanted to be partners made partner or at least counsel, even if they had to lateral once or twice. None of them are rainmakers. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5727948&forum_id=2#48948552) |
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Date: May 20th, 2025 5:45 PM Author: House-broken Coral Location Gaming Laptop Counsel is very different from partner so I’d separate the one outcome from the other immediately. If you start in a V25 (I’m not even sure I’d say V50 these days) you’ll likely make “partner” somewhere but you can end up making less than you did as an associate and living a pretty shitty existence. People don’t realize how rough it gets in the lower ranks of amlaw or in the regional firm milieu. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5727948&forum_id=2#48948562) |
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Date: May 20th, 2025 5:59 PM Author: Crawly abode You can make $2mm+ with no book and middling intelligence if you're willing to grind it out (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5727948&forum_id=2#48948592) |
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Date: May 20th, 2025 8:11 PM Author: Lilac Chest-beating New Version Hell and yet, for every actually unconnected one that does, 1000 115+ IQ, type-A strivers that feed solely of materialism, social status and external validation choose not to
wonder why |
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Date: May 20th, 2025 8:14 PM Author: Crawly abode Not in it to win it imo (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5727948&forum_id=2#48949025) |
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Date: May 20th, 2025 8:31 PM Author: House-broken Coral Location Gaming Laptop This is a very rare outcome though good for him. Firms aren't paying people $2m with no book, even in the V10, unless they've otherwise done something significant in their life that can generate business (in which case they'll eventually build a book). (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5727948&forum_id=2#48949098) |
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Date: May 20th, 2025 8:49 PM Author: Crawly abode On what are you basing that assertion (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5727948&forum_id=2#48949273) |
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Date: May 20th, 2025 8:50 PM Author: House-broken Coral Location Gaming Laptop Deep and extensive experience and market knowledge. And common sense. Again, I'm not saying it's impossible, you can, on rare occasion, if the stars align and you're well liked and the politics work out, grind your way into equity and technically be a "service" partner still (although in those cases they're usually servicing institutional clients of the firm a/o they're viewed as the heir apparent for when the rainmaker retires to take over the book). But it's very rare. And like a nonequity partner it's precarious. Book is the only thing that gives you stability. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5727948&forum_id=2#48949286) |
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Date: May 20th, 2025 9:09 PM Author: Crawly abode I don't think you know what you're talking about (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5727948&forum_id=2#48949432) |
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Date: May 20th, 2025 9:21 PM Author: House-broken Coral Location Gaming Laptop I definitely do. If there's something you'd like to talk more about I'm happy to. I can't imagine you're genuinely claiming it's common or typical to get to be a $2m equity (or senior non-equity) partner with no book. Or if you're just looking to be a fag in a subthread then we can stop and go our ways whatever you want. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5727948&forum_id=2#48949476) |
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Date: May 20th, 2025 9:46 PM Author: Crawly abode Maybe if you said $3mm, but there are lots of service partners making $2mm (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5727948&forum_id=2#48949571) |
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Date: May 20th, 2025 9:49 PM Author: Lemon crusty internal respiration In V50, how many? 2-3 per firm? 150 in the entire country? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5727948&forum_id=2#48949578) |
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Date: May 20th, 2025 9:57 PM Author: House-broken Coral Location Gaming Laptop There are not lots of those people. Those days are over. There were more equity service partners like you're describing (maybe they were making $1m instead of $2m) 10 years ago than there are now. Firms rely on permanent non-equity / of counsel to act as service partners in that capacity. If you get equity, especially with where PPP is now and given how most firms are on some version of eat what you kill, you are expected to generate business, constantly, not just service existing clients.
Like I said there are exceptions. If you're some super skilled superstar who does long-term good work for major institutional clients, even if you don't have a book, you can sometimes grind your way into equity especially if you threaten to leave. Even then part of your promotion will be your perceived capacity in the future to generate business even as you maintain the institutional relationships. I've also seen it happen where the person is a lieutenant for a BSD rainmaker who goes to bat for them. But these are atypical situations bro. Partnerships are cheap as fuck and they do not want to pay $2m a year simply to service matters when they can get that same work done for $500k a year. |
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Date: May 20th, 2025 10:09 PM Author: Crawly abode That has not been my experience, either the stinginess with equity or the ability to find someone to do the work for $500k. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5727948&forum_id=2#48949616) |
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Date: May 20th, 2025 10:11 PM Author: House-broken Coral Location Gaming Laptop Your experience is uncommon. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5727948&forum_id=2#48949626) |
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Date: May 20th, 2025 11:19 PM Author: Crawly abode Are you a recruiter or what (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5727948&forum_id=2#48949792) |
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Date: May 20th, 2025 10:10 PM Author: razzmatazz peach multi-billionaire casino But it can happen if one of your firms client’s is like, JNJ or XOM. Those clients can feed a dozen partners. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5727948&forum_id=2#48949619) |
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Date: May 20th, 2025 10:13 PM Author: House-broken Coral Location Gaming Laptop Yeah for sure and that was the typical path for it to happen e.g., Apollo is your institutional client, "hell, someone has to make equity, let's make it Nick, he works for Apollo a lot." But the attitude has changed significantly over the past decade because of the factors I outline above--primarily the availability of permanent non-equity who will happily take 700k to do the same work day in day out and the insane rise in profitability which has increased the equity floor so much that partnerships are reticent to give it out especially to people who aren't going to generate their own organic business to feed the partnership. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5727948&forum_id=2#48949631) |
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Date: May 21st, 2025 6:57 AM Author: honey-headed feces church "People don’t realize how rough it gets in the lower ranks of amlaw or in the regional firm milieu"
Don't have to work as much so seems chill |
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Date: May 20th, 2025 6:44 PM Author: mahogany stage faggotry i was totally with you until the last sentence - why is it worse now? seems like salaries are a lot higher? just easier to get pushed out, and maybe it's not that much higher after inflation? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5727948&forum_id=2#48948695) |
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Date: May 20th, 2025 8:30 PM Author: House-broken Coral Location Gaming Laptop I could have phrased that point better. If you are in the "I'm here for 3-5 years to get the notch on my resume, pay my loans, then get the fuck out" crowd, then there is arguably no better time than now to be in biglaw. But if you're coming into biglaw with the idea of making a lifelong career of it, especially by becoming a partner, I'd argue it's much worse now than it was 20 years ago. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5727948&forum_id=2#48949095) |
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Date: May 21st, 2025 10:25 AM Author: mahogany stage faggotry ah, cr, i totally hear you there ty (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5727948&forum_id=2#48950472) |
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Date: May 20th, 2025 7:33 PM Author: tripping private investor field what do these people do after they're pushed out?
teach high school latin? |
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Date: May 20th, 2025 7:36 PM Author: gold seedy stage get raped (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5727948&forum_id=2#48948860) |
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Date: May 20th, 2025 8:28 PM Author: House-broken Coral Location Gaming Laptop (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5727948&forum_id=2#48949086) |
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Date: May 20th, 2025 8:33 PM Author: contagious mustard dingle berry sound barrier (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5727948&forum_id=2#48949106) |
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Date: May 21st, 2025 4:35 PM Author: CapTTTainFalcon "I read a LinkedIn post today about an Asian American woman—a lawyer—who died by suicide in her mid-30s.
She had an Ivy League education, and worked at top law firms. But after less than a decade, she found herself unemployed. It sounded like she had been searching for a couple of years—for something that matched her expertise and experience. She didn’t find it.
I didn’t know her personally, but I cried. Because I see parts of her story in my own.
For anyone who's struggled after leaving a prestigious path—or was asked to leave—I want to speak to you." |
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Date: May 20th, 2025 9:47 PM Author: Lemon crusty internal respiration So assuming the wash outs are there for 3-5 years, they must be clearing at least $350k at say 30. What do they do then? $350k isn’t enough to live on in a tier 1 city. Assume they take a pay cut to move in house, F500 or mid-law? What’s the outcome? Seems like a waste. Not like you enjoyed your time in big law? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5727948&forum_id=2#48949573) |
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Date: May 20th, 2025 10:07 PM Author: razzmatazz peach multi-billionaire casino You marry someone making $100k+ and you live in the suburbs. You rarely work weekends and you raise kids. I coach little league.
If I’m ever tight on money my big law partner friends will buy me lunch (after rescheduling four times). |
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Date: May 20th, 2025 10:17 PM Author: House-broken Coral Location Gaming Laptop The business-oriented ones go in-house or they go way down vault / amlaw and try to become partner / of counsel at a firm with more sane hours and expectations. You'll get a few gunners who go the PI / start their own firm route. The public interest fags will leverage the biglaw time to go to government or their favorite save the whales NGO. Lots of Mrs. degrees for the female associates who just exit the workforce. You'll get a few burnouts who do something entirely different, open a cake shop or become a car dealer, some crazy shit like that. That's the typical span. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5727948&forum_id=2#48949640) |
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Date: May 20th, 2025 10:17 PM Author: House-broken Coral Location Gaming Laptop Also kickboxing underworld. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5727948&forum_id=2#48949643) |
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Date: May 20th, 2025 10:55 PM Author: Bright marvelous ape state I’m making it on 400k in a tier 1 city, what’s up
Supporting a family of 4 by myself right now. |
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Date: May 20th, 2025 10:09 PM Author: Insecure Sandwich kickboxing underworld (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5727948&forum_id=2#48949615) |
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Date: May 20th, 2025 7:19 PM Author: Appetizing public bath My buddy works at Emanuel something in NYC. He’s making like half a milli moving commas. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5727948&forum_id=2#48948800) |
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Date: May 20th, 2025 8:11 PM Author: fear-inspiring shimmering base is he in their divorce law group? our very own Are Reptile is an alum of that practice group.
most biglaw firms have a family law practice but Quinn Emanuel's is unparalleled. it's up there with Skadden's asbestos defense practice. |
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Date: May 20th, 2025 8:34 PM Author: House-broken Coral Location Gaming Laptop https://www.skadden.com/professionals/r/rakoczy-mark-e (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5727948&forum_id=2#48949112) |
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Date: May 20th, 2025 10:08 PM Author: razzmatazz peach multi-billionaire casino That’s about as Alpha Chicago lawyer as it gets (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5727948&forum_id=2#48949612) |
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Date: May 21st, 2025 7:03 PM Author: Kenneth Play cr you don't end up where that guy is, with that CV, looking like that, without getting some shit done (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5727948&forum_id=2#48952013) |
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Date: May 21st, 2025 12:01 AM Author: brass property Dude is mid-70s, looks great, but probably psychopathic and has 4 ex wives. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5727948&forum_id=2#48949866) |
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Date: May 20th, 2025 10:17 PM Author: Appetizing public bath He works on the Elon side of things (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5727948&forum_id=2#48949641) |
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Date: May 20th, 2025 10:52 PM Author: Bright marvelous ape state I worked on a 200 million dollar divorce estate dispute not flame (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5727948&forum_id=2#48949745) |
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Date: May 21st, 2025 6:33 AM Author: razzmatazz peach multi-billionaire casino I worked on the Anna Nicole Smith case. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5727948&forum_id=2#48950130) |
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Date: May 21st, 2025 4:38 PM Author: Covid was a Hoax isnt it all women now (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5727948&forum_id=2#48951683) |
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Date: May 22nd, 2025 12:24 PM Author: ~~(> ' ' )> (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5727948&forum_id=2#48953583) |