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lawfirmaddict presents the first wave of SA stats
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Date: May 20th, 2006 6:15 PM Author: supple federal persian dysfunction Without more numbers on 1L associates or the unknowns, it's impossible to be entirely accurate. But those should theoretically be diffuse enough to cancel each other out and affect real numbers only at the margins.
With a real shortage of some geographic regions, especially in California, the California schools are probably under-represented. *** The raw numbers, which include 1167 2L summer associates at Vault 25 firms. *** Harvard 285 Columbia 205 NYU 181 Yale 129 Georgetown 104 Chicago 92 Michigan 79 Penn 79 Northwestern 77 Stanford 65 Virginia 58 Cornell 57 Duke 52 Unknown 46 Boalt 45 Fordham 42 UCLA 34 GWU 31 Boston College 22 Boston U 22 Texas 22 Vanderbilt 18 Notre Dame 15 Illinois 14 Brooklyn 13 USC 13 WUSTL 13 Toronto 11 Cardozo 10 Howard 10 NY Law 10 American 8 BYU 8 Hastings 8 Indiana 8 St. Johns 8 Ohio State 7 Wisconsin 7 Albany 6 Loyola 6 McGill 6 Rutgers 6 Hofstra 5 Pepperdine 5 Tulane 5 Arizona 4 Davis 4 DePaul 4 Emory 4 Iowa 4 North Carolina 4 Pace 4 Seton Hall 4 Suffolk 4 Syracuse 4 UConn 4 W&M 4 Buffalo 3 Case Western 3 Missouri 3 Washington 3 York 3 Cleveland State 2 Houston 2 Kent 2 Northeastern 2 Villanova 2 Wake Forest 2 Akron 1 Alabama 1 Amsterdam 1 Denver 1 Dickinson 1 Florida 1 George Mason 1 Kansas 1 Kentucky 1 Kingston 1 Loyola LA 1 Maryland 1 Minnesota 1 New Mexico 1 Pittsburgh 1 San Diego 1 SMU 1 Southwestern 1 Temple 1 Touro 1 Utah 1 W&L 1 Weidner 1 Western Ontario 1 *** The percentages of American schools, based on FT+PT first years as the estimate of the class size, with USNWR rank in front of the school *** 1 Yale 64.8% 4 Columbia 54.2% 3 Harvard 51.2% 6 Chicago 47.9% 4 NYU 40.4% 2 Stanford 37.6% 7 Penn 32.5% 12 Northwestern 31.7% 13 Cornell 29.5% 11 Duke 26.1% 8 Michigan 21.6% 14 Georgetown 17.8% 8 Boalt 17.0% 8 Virginia 15.5% 15 UCLA 10.7% 19 WUSTL 9.6% 17 Vanderbilt 9.0% 32 Fordham 8.7% 22 Notre Dame 8.6% 27 Boston College 8.0% 22 Boston U 7.5% 27 Illinois 7.4% TTT Howard 6.3% 17 USC 6.3% 19 GWU 5.8% 34 BYU 5.2% 16 Texas 5.0% 37 Indiana 3.5% 39 Ohio State 3.2% 53 Cardozo 2.7% 43 Arizona 2.6% 58 Brooklyn 2.6% 32 Wisconsin 2.6% 80 St. Johns 2.5% TTT Albany 2.4% 65 Rutgers 2.4% 70 Loyola 2.3% 34 Davis 2.1% 87 Pepperdine 2.1% 50 UConn 2.0% 60 Missouri 2.0% 27 W&M 2.0% 43 Hastings 1.9% TTT NY Law 1.9% 22 Iowa 1.8% 27 North Carolina 1.7% 43 American 1.7% 26 Emory 1.7% 43 Tulane 1.7% 27 Washington 1.7% TTT Pace 1.5% TTT Syracuse 1.5% 51 Case Western 1.3% 39 Wake Forest 1.3% TTT Hofstra 1.3% 80 Buffalo 1.2% 80 DePaul 1.2% 70 Seton Hall 1.1% 87 Northeastern 0.9% TTT Cleveland State 0.8% 77 New Mexico 0.8% 60 Villanova 0.8% 57 Utah 0.8% 22 W&L 0.7% FTT Suffolk 0.7% 43 Alabama 0.6% 70 Kansas 0.6% 70 Houston 0.6% 60 Kent 0.6% 65 Kentucky 0.6% TTT Akron 0.5% 87 Dickinson 0.5% 37 George Mason 0.5% 60 Pittsburgh 0.4% 42 Maryland 0.4% 19 Minnesota 0.4% 43 SMU 0.3% FTT Touro 0.3% 58 Temple 0.3% TTT Southwestern 0.3% 70 Denver 0.3% 65 San Diego 0.3% 65 Loyola CA 0.2% 41 Florida 0.2% FTT Weidner 0.2%
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Date: May 20th, 2006 6:24 PM Author: umber wagecucks Washington and Lee's suckiness is only exceeded by MinnesoTTTa. Are these both seriously right? If so, that's EMBARRASSING. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=419935&forum_id=2#5822968) |
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Date: May 20th, 2006 6:30 PM Author: Vivacious national knife what is your source/how did you collect this data? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=419935&forum_id=2#5823007) |
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Date: May 20th, 2006 6:31 PM Author: supple federal persian dysfunction see the sticky (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=419935&forum_id=2#5823013) |
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Date: May 20th, 2006 6:44 PM Author: glittery free-loading sound barrier public bath "But those should theoretically be diffuse enough to cancel each other out and affect real numbers only at the margins."
This information, especially the percentages, is almost entirely useless. Looking at your site, you are missing many, many offices and firms. Do you really think that only 50% of Harvard students or 30% of Stanford students go to these firms? It probably exceeds 90%. You really need to include all offices before posting this stuff. |
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Date: May 20th, 2006 6:47 PM Author: supple federal persian dysfunction Some of the firms have been added, but I didn't put them on the site yet. There's some gaping holes, but I thought this would be an interesting start (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=419935&forum_id=2#5823085) |
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Date: May 20th, 2006 7:11 PM Author: Beady-eyed chest-beating trust fund i disagree with the notion that these stats are useless. incomplete, yes, but useless, no. instead, they might be more valuable broken up by region. i know because i did this for the chicago market and sent them to lawfirmaddict. you should host it on your site and link to it. even without winston strawn, which still isnt out anywhere that i see, thats very useful for people considering schools. its not useful for people looking to take pride in their school because of the large self-selection bias, but its useful to see where most lawyers in the chicago market are coming from for people on the margins. maybe nick could provide insight into the california market and then you can gather data similarly on those regions. in the aggregate though without taking regions into account, its hardly good to look at the nyc biased V25. For example, take the V26 instead and because Mayer Brown is 26, UChicago, Northwestern and UMichigan all improve. My 2 cents... |
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Date: May 20th, 2006 7:21 PM Author: supple federal persian dysfunction I plan on going market-by-market and getting to the V50, eventually V100. These things take time. I don't want to go market-by-market, though, until I get more stats, or it's a waste of time (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=419935&forum_id=2#5823216) |
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Date: May 20th, 2006 7:25 PM Author: Beady-eyed chest-beating trust fund well, i think your plan is good. my only note to that though is that chicago's top 7 or 8 firms are done already. anyway, good luck. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=419935&forum_id=2#5823235) |
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Date: May 20th, 2006 8:43 PM Author: Aggressive Underhanded Indian Lodge OMG CHICAGO PWNZZZZZZ STANFORRD LOL!!!!!!!!!!!11111111 (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=419935&forum_id=2#5823489) |
Date: May 20th, 2006 6:57 PM Author: pontificating resort These stats are useless, grossly inaccurate, and a waste of time for you to compile and for us to read. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=419935&forum_id=2#5823126) |
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Date: May 20th, 2006 7:00 PM Author: supple federal persian dysfunction what's inaccurate? they may be misleading if you think that some schools are underrepresented because of some of the missing firms, but that doesn't make them inaccurate. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=419935&forum_id=2#5823139) |
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Date: May 20th, 2006 7:02 PM Author: pontificating resort the "stats" are idiotic (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=419935&forum_id=2#5823145) |
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Date: May 20th, 2006 7:05 PM Author: supple federal persian dysfunction your school didn't come out as well as you'd hoped? Sorry (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=419935&forum_id=2#5823158) |
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Date: May 20th, 2006 7:09 PM Author: Olive Adventurous Ladyboy School You're just mad about USC's position. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=419935&forum_id=2#5823168) |
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Date: May 20th, 2006 7:12 PM Author: supple federal persian dysfunction I even included a disclaimer that CA firms were under-represented. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=419935&forum_id=2#5823181) |
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Date: May 20th, 2006 7:19 PM Author: rose property Well, many of these lists were compiled from emails simply going by the addresses. There is talk that many of the ccs were to non law school addresses. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=419935&forum_id=2#5823210) |
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Date: May 20th, 2006 7:20 PM Author: Olive Adventurous Ladyboy School That's why there are 46 "unknowns". (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=419935&forum_id=2#5823213) |
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Date: May 20th, 2006 7:23 PM Author: rose property And you don't think having a large number of unknowns impacts accuracy? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=419935&forum_id=2#5823223) |
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Date: May 20th, 2006 7:25 PM Author: Olive Adventurous Ladyboy School Only at the margins. There are 1167 total and only 46 unknowns. The relative positions of schools should not be impacted very much. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=419935&forum_id=2#5823236) |
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Date: May 20th, 2006 7:28 PM Author: supple federal persian dysfunction relative being the important point. So the 67% or whatever is too low. But it's still for the most part accurate relative to the others around it. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=419935&forum_id=2#5823244) |
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Date: May 20th, 2006 7:32 PM Author: Olive Adventurous Ladyboy School Plus there are some firms left out, no? So the percentages aren't terribly useful except as a metric to compare schools. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=419935&forum_id=2#5823259) |
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Date: May 20th, 2006 7:34 PM Author: rose property "Plus there are some firms left out, no? So the percentages aren't terribly useful except as a metric to compare schools." Wow.
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Date: May 20th, 2006 7:41 PM Author: Olive Adventurous Ladyboy School C'mon, you don't think having 80-90% of the SA data is useful? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=419935&forum_id=2#5823279) |
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Date: May 20th, 2006 7:59 PM Author: rose property It's nowhere close to 90%. There are hundreds of SAs missing from Covington, Gibson, OMM, Jones Day, A&P, etc. from regions outside of NYC. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=419935&forum_id=2#5823339) |
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Date: May 20th, 2006 7:29 PM Author: rose property You're being entirely speculative. If 30 of those 46 were from one school it certainly would. I'm not sure exactly how you can argue that this is an accurate representation of anything other than the lists posted on xoxo. What relevance that has to anything is entirely unclear to me. |
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Date: May 20th, 2006 7:31 PM Author: Olive Adventurous Ladyboy School Which is more likely, that the remaining 4% will be similar to the other 96%, or that it will be wildly skewed toward one school? I think you are being more speculative than I. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=419935&forum_id=2#5823254) |
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Date: May 20th, 2006 7:33 PM Author: rose property What do you think a likely cause for a person not giving his school address? Random chance, or perhaps advice from a particular career services officer? What do think is more likely, that a firm like OMM will be like the 96% of the NYC firms, or skewed toward CA schools? |
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Date: May 20th, 2006 7:39 PM Author: Olive Adventurous Ladyboy School 1) I have no idea. 2) He's already conceded that this is biased against CA schools. So yes, Stanford and Boalt would move up if more CA were included, but it's a good overall picture. |
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Date: May 20th, 2006 8:05 PM Author: supple federal persian dysfunction well this was a failure. All the discussion's about the methodology and not the results
I updated the blog http://lawfirmaddict.blogspot.com Take a look and post new info if you have it. |
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Date: May 20th, 2006 9:10 PM Author: ivory splenetic travel guidebook The thread is a failure and the discussion is about the methodology because the methodology is horrible. The results are worthless, so there's not much to discuss.
Obviously Harvard is better for biglaw than Texas. You don't need some "study" by a guy on a message board named "lawfirmaddict" to tell you that. The interesting problem is comparing the schools that are similarly-ranked. And the flaws in your methodology (which both you and others have identified) do little to solve the problem. |
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Date: May 20th, 2006 8:33 PM Author: Razzmatazz Church northwestern pwnage (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=419935&forum_id=2#5823461) |
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Date: May 20th, 2006 8:35 PM Author: umber wagecucks Do you think NU does well because employers prefer students with some real work experience? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=419935&forum_id=2#5823471) |
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Date: May 20th, 2006 8:40 PM Author: Razzmatazz Church i think it's partly that and also the fact that nu interviews students and filters out the douchey tools (for the most part). (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=419935&forum_id=2#5823484) |
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Date: May 20th, 2006 9:42 PM Author: thriller rigpig "nu . . . filters out the douchey tools"
180 (unless you're being serious) |
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Date: May 20th, 2006 9:44 PM Author: fluffy wonderful gay wizard SUFFOLK!!!!!!!!!! (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=419935&forum_id=2#5823698) |
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Date: May 22nd, 2006 9:05 PM Author: supple federal persian dysfunction anyone? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=419935&forum_id=2#5834377) |