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Fun Legal Hypo (From Talmud Law Class) - Dingfagged From Jerb
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Date: October 12th, 2018 4:53 PM Author: Shimmering mewling affirmative action The spiritual heights of the holidays were over, but they had left their imprint. Benny decided to work on weekends as a counselor for handicapped children. He applied to the Special Neshamos organization run by Mr. Hauser. After an initial interview and return of the application form, he was called back.
“It is likely that we will have a position for you,” Mr. Hauser said. “We need you to fill out additional forms before confirmation. Also, do you have CPR certification?”
“No,” replied Benny. “Do I need it?”
“We require that all our staff have First Aid/CPR/AED certification,” answered Mr. Hauser. “We arrange courses with the Red Cross for our prospective staff.”
“Do you cover the cost?” asked Benny.
“No, each person pays for himself directly to the Red Cross,” replied Mr. Hauser. “It’s $100. There is one starting in a week, if you’d like.”
Benny registered, took the course and received certification.
Two weeks later, Mr. Hauser called Benny. “We’ve had a very large number of excellent applicants,” he said. “We are not able to accommodate them all. We appreciate your qualifications and willingness to work but unfortunately cannot offer you a position.”
Benny was very disappointed. “I was looking forward to working with the children,” he said. “I was also counting on the additional income for the year.”
“I understand,” Mr. Hauser comforted him, “but the situation is that we cannot accept you.”
“You also made me spend $100 for the CPR course,” Benny complained. “It turned out to be a needless expense! At the least, you should compensate me for the cost of the course.”
“First of all, we never promised you a position,” replied Mr. Hauser. “Second, you gained the knowledge of the course.”
“But I would not have taken the course had you not told me that I needed it,” argued Benny. “Can I raise the issue with Rabbi Dayan?”
“Certainly,” said Mr. Hauser. “Let me know what he says.” |
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Date: October 12th, 2018 4:55 PM Author: red well-lubricated really tough guy (faggot) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4104441&forum_id=2#37010140) |
Date: October 12th, 2018 4:58 PM Author: aquamarine mildly autistic corner the org should pay the cost. Benny took the course under the assumption he was getting the job. the org should have either said CLEARLY that there was no guaranty he was getting the job even if he took the course, or it should have told him not to take the course until he got the job. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4104441&forum_id=2#37010164) |
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Date: October 12th, 2018 5:06 PM Author: Shimmering mewling affirmative action my take is below, and it's almost the same as yours but slightly different. i don't think the burden is on the employer to CLEARLY say there is no guarantee otherwise they're responsible. rather, i think the employer isn't responsible unless they take some affirmative step or say something to make the prospective employee think he's getting the job and induce him to take the course. here, them ARRANGING the course meets my test. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4104441&forum_id=2#37010238) |
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Date: October 12th, 2018 5:07 PM Author: red well-lubricated really tough guy (cock sucking faggot) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4104441&forum_id=2#37010242) |
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Date: October 12th, 2018 5:07 PM Author: aquamarine mildly autistic corner makes sense, your logic is superior here (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4104441&forum_id=2#37010247) |
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Date: October 12th, 2018 5:10 PM Author: Shimmering mewling affirmative action what about the bit at the end that he has the knowledge from the class and gains the certification? on one hand, it's worthless if he doesn't intend to get another job that requires CPR certification.
on the other hand, CPR certification is such a common and useful skill that you could argue that even if there the employer is liable at equity, the damages are less than $100 -- or even $0.
i'm really not sure how the talmud is going to come out, but i tend to think that it's worthless. |
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Date: October 12th, 2018 5:11 PM Author: red well-lubricated really tough guy what about the bit where your wife cucks you with smelly turdskins (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4104441&forum_id=2#37010277) |
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Date: October 12th, 2018 5:15 PM Author: exhilarant saffron shitlib wrinkle He’s never previously needed it for anything so it’s probably worthless to HIM. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4104441&forum_id=2#37010304) |
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Date: October 12th, 2018 5:17 PM Author: Shimmering mewling affirmative action does it matter whether it's worthless to him? or whether it's objectively worthless?
if he were required to take $100 for to learn some software program that ONLY this employer uses, then we can all agree that the knowledge/certification is totally useless.
a CPR certification is obviously distinguishable from the previous example. it's arguably useful to many people and a good life skill to have -- even if benny says it's worthless to him.
i'm really not sure. i need to think about it more. |
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Date: October 12th, 2018 5:20 PM Author: red well-lubricated really tough guy does it matter if your slut wife gets assfucked by a dozen turdskins? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4104441&forum_id=2#37010345) |
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Date: October 12th, 2018 5:22 PM Author: exhilarant saffron shitlib wrinkle we’re talking equity —> restitution —> restoring HIS position —> HIS position is that the certification has no value to him (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4104441&forum_id=2#37010357) |
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Date: October 12th, 2018 5:25 PM Author: Shimmering mewling affirmative action does the certification have no value to him even if he says it does? even if he doesn't intend to use it for employment, he can use it to possibly save the life of a family member. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4104441&forum_id=2#37010369) |
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Date: October 12th, 2018 5:34 PM Author: exhilarant saffron shitlib wrinkle If it’s improved his position, then that’s different and the answer likely changes. But the hypo doesn’t say anything like that. Would he have spent the $100 but for the quasi job offer? Doesn’t look that way. Therefore full $100 restitution is needed to restore him. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4104441&forum_id=2#37010426) |
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Date: October 12th, 2018 5:38 PM Author: Shimmering mewling affirmative action nope, he wouldn't have taken the course except for the quasi job offer.
however, remember the fun legal hypo where the cabbie's booking stands him up and the rabbi ruled that he doesn't get compensated for his entire profit because he got the day off and didnt have to work, so he gets maybe 1/2 of his profit? these cases seem to have wacky results about benefits that you don't really want but are considered ways in which you benefit. |
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Date: October 12th, 2018 5:41 PM Author: exhilarant saffron shitlib wrinkle Don’t recall that hypo but yeah sure So yes the question is has he benefitted from this at all, I would argue he hasn’t |
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Date: October 12th, 2018 5:46 PM Author: Shimmering mewling affirmative action yeah, this has come up in multiple hypos actually. it's a very jewy way of looking at damages, and i argued with the rabbi about it.
the concept is that you're hired to do a job and the other side screws you over, you dont get your full expectation interest if you get to sit on your ass instead of doing the job. the talmud ascribes some value to sitting on your ass and not having to do the job.
i argued with the rabbi, and i said what if someone really needed the money and wanted to do the job so he can make his entire profit... not sit on his ass and get a portion of the profit.
his response is that there's always some price that someone would do something or not do something for. |
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Date: October 12th, 2018 5:51 PM Author: exhilarant saffron shitlib wrinkle I can see the rabbi’s logic but I think it’s a bit harsh. They would have made the choice to work, not to sit on their ass. It effectively forces them to take a vacation day at half pay. If they would not have done this of their own free will, then they are left worse off by having been forced to do it. So I’m with you on this point.
What’s the rabbi’s solution to this hypo here? |
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Date: October 12th, 2018 5:52 PM Author: Shimmering mewling affirmative action we haven't discussed it yet. i dont know the answer yet! (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4104441&forum_id=2#37010524) |
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Date: October 12th, 2018 5:53 PM Author: exhilarant saffron shitlib wrinkle Post when you do, I’m sufficiently invested now! (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4104441&forum_id=2#37010528) |
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Date: October 12th, 2018 5:03 PM Author: Shimmering mewling affirmative action i think it's pretty clear that there's no recovery at law. but i think there are enough facts to create an implied contract at equity that the employer would be given the job if he completed the course, and by not getting the job, he's owed restitution of $100 for the course.
i think the lynchpin is that the employer ARRANGED the course for benny. they didnt just tell him to go out and find a course on his own. why would they arrange a course for someone they don't want to hire? |
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Date: October 12th, 2018 5:05 PM Author: red well-lubricated really tough guy (faggot) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4104441&forum_id=2#37010232) |
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Date: October 12th, 2018 5:12 PM Author: exhilarant saffron shitlib wrinkle The estoppel aspect is borderline (“likely that we will”, not “if you do this we will”) but yes them organizing the course probably swings it in that direction. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4104441&forum_id=2#37010284) |
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Date: October 12th, 2018 5:20 PM Author: Shimmering mewling affirmative action to me, “likely that we will” isn't even borderline. it's nowhere near estoppel. if some company says it's likely that we hire you, any reasonable person knows that the company may full of shit and "likely" means absolutely nothing.
i think them arranging the course basically turns it into a "if you do this we will” |
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Date: October 12th, 2018 5:21 PM Author: red well-lubricated really tough guy no one cares faggot (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4104441&forum_id=2#37010349) |
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Date: October 12th, 2018 5:24 PM Author: exhilarant saffron shitlib wrinkle yes agreeing with you that this swings it towards creating the estoppel (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4104441&forum_id=2#37010365) |
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Date: October 12th, 2018 5:26 PM Author: Shimmering mewling affirmative action if they said "it's likely that we will hire you, just so you know, you need a CPR cert for this job, FYI. btw, here's a list of some CPR courses in the area we recommend." and there's nothing mentioned one way or another that you take the course at your own risk or that you might want to wait until you have the job.
... on this fact pattern, i think there's fairly clearly no estoppel. agreed? |
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Date: October 12th, 2018 5:39 PM Author: exhilarant saffron shitlib wrinkle I think it’s closer than you say. The whole point of promissory estoppel in a situation like this is to trigger equitable restitution even where there is no contract at law. If he’s changed his position in reliance on a promise, then he gets it (at least in some jurisdictions). The only open question is if there has been a promise. I agree that “likely” falls just short, but short enough that arranging the coursd flips it into being a promise —> estoppel. So I agree, but say it’s a closer thing than you think it is. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4104441&forum_id=2#37010452) |
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Date: October 12th, 2018 5:42 PM Author: Shimmering mewling affirmative action fair enough. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4104441&forum_id=2#37010476) |
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Date: October 12th, 2018 5:18 PM Author: Chartreuse big-titted library (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4104441&forum_id=2#37010326) |
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Date: October 12th, 2018 5:23 PM Author: bipolar ape sneaky criminal (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4104441&forum_id=2#37010360) |
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Date: October 12th, 2018 5:51 PM Author: metal box office Benny still benefits from the CPR class/certification.
The only equitable solution is to refund the $100, but also have a rabbi (from the *employer's* temple) hit Benny in the head with a hammer until he forgets everything he learned in the CPR class. |
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Date: October 12th, 2018 5:52 PM Author: exhilarant saffron shitlib wrinkle Winner. Everything is put back to where it was. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4104441&forum_id=2#37010525) |
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Date: October 12th, 2018 5:53 PM Author: Shimmering mewling affirmative action ljl does a rabbi even know how to lift a hammer? have to hire the prole goy mr fix it shabbos goy for that (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4104441&forum_id=2#37010529) |
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Date: October 12th, 2018 5:53 PM Author: metal box office who pays for the Shabbos goy? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4104441&forum_id=2#37010532) |
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Date: October 12th, 2018 5:55 PM Author: Shimmering mewling affirmative action employer's temple makes the goy do it as part of his regular duties (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4104441&forum_id=2#37010541) |
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Date: October 12th, 2018 5:56 PM Author: metal box office trick question. The three jews conspire to trick the dumb goy into doing it for free. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4104441&forum_id=2#37010543) |
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Date: October 12th, 2018 6:06 PM Author: Shimmering mewling affirmative action (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4104441&forum_id=2#37010617) |
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Date: October 12th, 2018 6:11 PM Author: metal box office That's actually the answer to every Talmud law hypo (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4104441&forum_id=2#37010655) |
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Date: October 12th, 2018 6:13 PM Author: Shimmering mewling affirmative action (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4104441&forum_id=2#37010664) |
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Date: October 12th, 2018 10:50 PM Author: vengeful philosopher-king hell Never change Jews (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4104441&forum_id=2#37011936) |
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Date: October 12th, 2018 7:00 PM Author: Cerise roommate sound barrier "We need you to fill out additional forms before confirmation" "“We arrange courses with the Red Cross for our prospective staff.” " Either is suggestive enough to warrant Benny's reasonable belief. There is certainly far more neutral language here that could have been used.
Employer atleast pays the class. |
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Date: October 12th, 2018 7:05 PM Author: Shimmering mewling affirmative action this gets me thinking --- does the employer owe benny wages the time he took the course? farfetched, but perhaps he was hired for 1 day and performed work by attending the class for the employer's benefit. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4104441&forum_id=2#37010897) |
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Date: October 12th, 2018 8:00 PM Author: Cerise roommate sound barrier seems cr performing what seemed to be "require[d] of staff" |
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Date: October 13th, 2018 10:15 PM Author: Shimmering mewling affirmative action (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4104441&forum_id=2#37017014) |
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Date: October 13th, 2018 10:27 PM Author: stirring sadistic twinkling uncleanness Is it implied that the question is who goes in the oven first? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4104441&forum_id=2#37017085) |
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Date: October 15th, 2018 8:55 PM Author: Shimmering mewling affirmative action last chance before i poast the answer... (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4104441&forum_id=2#37030848) |
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Date: October 16th, 2018 9:58 AM Author: metal box office poast it (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4104441&forum_id=2#37033912) |
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Date: October 16th, 2018 11:57 AM Author: Cerise roommate sound barrier (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4104441&forum_id=2#37034681) |
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Date: October 16th, 2018 11:10 AM Author: exhilarant saffron shitlib wrinkle I’m sticking with my answer (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4104441&forum_id=2#37034361) |
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Date: October 16th, 2018 11:58 AM Author: Shimmering mewling affirmative action RULING:
“When you incur expenses based upon an arrangement with or the instructions of another, sometimes you are entitled to compensation if he does not follow through,” replied Rabbi Dayan. “For example, if two people arranged a court date in a distant city and one did not appear, he is liable for the travel expenses of his opponent. According to many authorities this is considered garmi, directly caused damage” (Rema, C.M. 14:5).
“Chavos Yair (#168) extrapolates from this to families from distant places who planned a wedding, but the chassan did not arrive at the appointed time,” continued Rabbi Dayan. “He is liable for the unnecessary wedding expenses that the kallah incurred, unless there was sufficient cause for his delay or absence” (Pischei Teshuvah, C.M. 14:15).
“Would this apply in our case?” asked Benny.
“Here, the organization is exempt for a few reasons,” answered Rabbi Dayan. “First, CPR training is of value for any person. Although most people take the course in the context of job requirements, many people take it for their edification and personal knowledge. At some point you may now be able to save a life! Thus, even had the organization misled you intentionally and instructed you to take the course unnecessarily, they would only be liable for partial compensation. The amount that the average person would spend for this knowledge is not a loss, and would be deducted” (see Sma 333:30).
“Moreover, Mr. Hauser never promised you a position or demanded that you take the course then,” concluded Rabbi Dayan. “You knew that you needed confirmation and should have considered the possibility that you might not be accepted; you could have waited to take the course.
“Additionally, perhaps there was sincere intent to hire you, but due to the large number of candidates it was not possible, which could be considered sufficient cause. Therefore, they are exempt.” |
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Date: October 16th, 2018 11:58 AM Author: Shimmering mewling affirmative action the ruling is gay as fuck. i hate it (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4104441&forum_id=2#37034698) |
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Date: October 16th, 2018 12:13 PM Author: metal box office this is why my response was cr. He didn't want the CPR knowledge in the first place. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4104441&forum_id=2#37034809) |
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Date: October 16th, 2018 12:02 PM Author: Galvanic institution if being CPR certified is a requirement to be considered for the jerb then it's on the guy to get it.
there are literally thousands of different CYA certifications that ppl pay out of pocket for in order to get jobs. it's a stupid racket in many cases but it's how it is. |
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Date: October 16th, 2018 12:04 PM Author: Shimmering mewling affirmative action (low iq goy simpleton) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4104441&forum_id=2#37034726) |