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Coke's CEO makes roughly the same as a wachtell partner
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Date: November 18th, 2005 6:30 PM Author: lime glittery office yet he is pretty much the head guy of coke and wachtell has like what, 100 partners? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=301384&forum_id=2#4326371) |
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Date: November 18th, 2005 6:32 PM Author: big internal respiration kitty cat i'm sure the guy has stock worth $100 mil. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=301384&forum_id=2#4326381) |
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Date: November 18th, 2005 6:51 PM Author: Pink racy goal in life school actually, about 12 million. he owns about 300k shares, according to this filing linked below, and they trade around 42.
http://finance.yahoo.com/q/ir?s=KO |
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Date: November 18th, 2005 7:03 PM Author: Self-centered Preventive Strike Shrine yes. executive salary isn't the reason why you want to be a top guy (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=301384&forum_id=2#4326690) |
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Date: November 18th, 2005 7:07 PM Author: Cocky Narrow-minded Pisswyrm Potus Yeah, and he probably has options to buy 1M more. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=301384&forum_id=2#4326737) |
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Date: November 18th, 2005 6:32 PM Author: Startled National how many employees does coke actually have? they just license their shit out to bottlers who actually produce it. add up all the presidents of the various bottlers, and maybe you'll get to 200. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=301384&forum_id=2#4326389) |
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Date: November 18th, 2005 6:35 PM Author: lime glittery office I seriously doubt any of the presidents of the bottling companies make 7 figures. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=301384&forum_id=2#4326410) |
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Date: November 18th, 2005 6:41 PM Author: Startled National i seriously doubt you know what the fuck you are talking about. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=301384&forum_id=2#4326482) |
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Date: November 18th, 2005 6:42 PM Author: High-end parlor He does this all the time.
He talks out of his ass when he doesn't know shit from shitola.
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Date: June 11th, 2006 7:55 AM Author: comical infuriating scourge upon the earth How much do owners of bottlers (as opposed to "presidents") make? I bet they do ok. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=301384&forum_id=2#5958111) |
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Date: June 11th, 2006 10:13 AM Author: blue pit I'm pretty sure they do very well. Some of the bottling companies must essentially be mid-sized corporations. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=301384&forum_id=2#5958192) |
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Date: June 11th, 2006 12:01 PM Author: Brindle Coldplay Fan University Are you 12 years old? You are a friggin moron. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=301384&forum_id=2#5958470) |
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Date: June 11th, 2006 12:04 PM Author: Charismatic Dopamine Dude, I know a bottling company middle manager that makes 80. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=301384&forum_id=2#5958481) |
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Date: June 24th, 2006 4:34 PM Author: Bull headed submissive center Whoa. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=301384&forum_id=2#6061573) |
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Date: March 18th, 2007 10:58 PM Author: vibrant pontificating locale LMFAO (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=301384&forum_id=2#7776979) |
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Date: November 18th, 2005 6:33 PM Author: thriller violet garrison party of the first part Wachtell has ~190 lawyers, total, and obviously partners have no stock options. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=301384&forum_id=2#4326397) |
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Date: November 18th, 2005 6:39 PM Author: High-end parlor This is Nasc, right?
Yeah, you're a fucking moron, dude. |
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Date: November 18th, 2005 6:40 PM Author: lime glittery office coke's ceo = 3.7 million
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Date: November 18th, 2005 7:04 PM Author: Self-centered Preventive Strike Shrine stock options are nice, and often not included as compensation until they are exercised (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=301384&forum_id=2#4326700) |
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Date: June 11th, 2006 3:39 PM Author: vermilion naked laser beams giraffe Nasc is coke's CEO? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=301384&forum_id=2#5959500) |
Date: November 18th, 2005 6:38 PM Author: painfully honest peach ratface principal's office You're an idiot. As others have mentioned, most executives make most of their compensation through stock otpions. How many times do you hear of executives do the $1 dollar a year salary or $100,000............then they walk away with $40 million in sales of company stock. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=301384&forum_id=2#4326445) |
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Date: November 18th, 2005 6:41 PM Author: lime glittery office I'm aware that they get stock options. That wasn't the point. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=301384&forum_id=2#4326475) |
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Date: November 18th, 2005 6:41 PM Author: High-end parlor The "point" was a fucking dumb one. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=301384&forum_id=2#4326479) |
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Date: November 18th, 2005 6:48 PM Author: lime glittery office the point is that one of the most powerful CEO's in the country makes about the same in base salary + bonus as a wachtell partner and even when you consider stock options he makes double.
He's the only CEO of coke, while Wachtell has 80 or so partners. |
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Date: November 18th, 2005 6:49 PM Author: Startled National Coke is a powerful brand. that doesn't make it a powerful company. stupid fuck. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=301384&forum_id=2#4326539) |
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Date: November 18th, 2005 6:50 PM Author: lime glittery office you think coke isn't a powerful company? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=301384&forum_id=2#4326546) |
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Date: November 18th, 2005 6:54 PM Author: Startled National how do you define power? they are basically a nonexistent force in washington. powerful companies are commodity companies that supply your food, energy companies that supply your energy, wal-mart companies that supply your cheap shit from china, and bank "companies" that provide the capital. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=301384&forum_id=2#4326580) |
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Date: November 18th, 2005 6:56 PM Author: lime glittery office then I'm confused why you brought this definition of power into this discussion. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=301384&forum_id=2#4326606) |
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Date: November 18th, 2005 6:57 PM Author: Startled National what's your definition of power??????????????????????
(I can't wait for you to PWN yourself - in terms of size isn't Coke basically a non-player? are they even fortune 50? i could be wrong, but i'm sure you must have the answer)
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Date: November 18th, 2005 7:00 PM Author: lime glittery office in terms of the discussion above I was using the money = power definition, which should have been clear from context. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=301384&forum_id=2#4326653) |
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Date: November 18th, 2005 7:02 PM Author: Startled National AGAIN - does coke make that much money compared to most big businesses with that level of brand recognition? it has a powerful brand, i admit that. what is their fortune ranking?
you are positively retarded. |
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Date: November 18th, 2005 7:08 PM Author: lime glittery office I'm not sure what you mean by "does coke make that much money compared to most big businesses with that level of brand recognition?"
But they are one of the 100 largest businesses (in terms of worth) in the united states. |
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Date: November 18th, 2005 7:08 PM Author: Startled National NO THEY ARE NOT. Fortune only ranks public companies dumbfuck. you need to add in the list of largest private companies. that pushes coke outside the top 100. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=301384&forum_id=2#4326755) |
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Date: November 18th, 2005 7:11 PM Author: lime glittery office so how many private companies are worth more than coke? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=301384&forum_id=2#4326789) |
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Date: November 18th, 2005 7:12 PM Author: Startled National easily 10. oooops. there goes coke. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=301384&forum_id=2#4326796) |
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Date: November 18th, 2005 7:13 PM Author: lime glittery office okay then they are one of the 200 largest companies. That's not a very important point. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=301384&forum_id=2#4326813) |
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Date: November 18th, 2005 7:15 PM Author: Startled National sure it is. choose a better example. that's just fucking random, choosing some company which has one of the top brands in the world, to rank against some law firm. why don't you compare the CEO or partner of one of the big consulting firms to a partner at Wachtell. Then you're talking.
damn you're stupid. |
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Date: November 18th, 2005 7:18 PM Author: lime glittery office That's all the thread was supposed to be. Comparing a random CEO to a law partner.
It was also supposed to get a rise out of joires. |
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Date: June 11th, 2006 3:38 PM Author: bearded very tactful mood generalized bond Subject: misguided janitor (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=301384&forum_id=2#5959494) |
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Date: June 11th, 2006 8:04 AM Author: Scarlet Vivacious Senate I would love to see 50 American companies with market caps greater than Coke's $103B. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=301384&forum_id=2#5958115) |
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Date: June 24th, 2006 4:38 PM Author: Bull headed submissive center IT'S OFFICIAL. Under Cover Gunner is an idiot.
"you need to add in the list of largest private companies. that pushes coke outside the top 100."
The biggest private companies are f'in accounting firms. Are you seriously that stupid?
I mean, seriously.
Sigh. |
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Date: November 18th, 2005 7:05 PM Author: gay diverse kitchen They are Fortune 100 as of a few years ago. (91 specifically)
http://www.usatoday.com/money/companies/2004-03-22-fortune-500-list_x.htm |
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Date: November 18th, 2005 7:06 PM Author: Startled National whoopedido. that means they're a fraction of the size of even the top 20 PRIVATE companies. which means in terms of actual size they are well below top 100 (fortune lists only public companies).
GEE, COKE IS A GREAT BENCHMARK! |
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Date: June 11th, 2006 8:06 AM Author: Scarlet Vivacious Senate Revenue is among the dumbest ways to rank company sizes. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=301384&forum_id=2#5958117) |
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Date: June 11th, 2006 5:27 PM Author: Bearded Avocado Fanboi Umm...Coke basically built Atlanta the same way that Carnegie's steel built Pittsburgh.
Being largely responsible for a major U.S. city's existence = power. |
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Date: June 11th, 2006 11:43 AM Author: multi-colored shimmering box office telephone They also have very lucrative defined benefit pension plans. The formula is based on years of service plus an average of the exec's highest salary years. These plans can pay executives upwards of 7 figures a year FOR LIFE after they retire. Not bad....and they don't have to contribute a dime of their own cash to the plans. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=301384&forum_id=2#5958383) |
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Date: November 18th, 2005 6:39 PM Author: big internal respiration kitty cat looking it up i see in 2003 he got a "restricted stock award" in the amount of $47,880,000. not much since.
i'm not sure what that is but sounds like a lot of it. |
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Date: November 18th, 2005 6:40 PM Author: Brass trip degenerate Forget that, Jeff Bezos doesn't even make as much a first year associate.
http://www.forbes.com/finance/mktguideapps/personinfo/FromPersonIdPersonTearsheet.jhtml?passedPersonId=221428 |
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Date: November 18th, 2005 6:41 PM Author: High-end parlor LOL he's so poor OMG LOL |
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Date: November 18th, 2005 6:41 PM Author: painfully honest peach ratface principal's office From Forbes......
The CEO of Coke got $4,000,000 in compensation. And he owns $14 million worth of stock.
http://www.forbes.com/static/execpay2005/company_101.html?passListId=12&passYear=2005&passListType=Person&searchParameter1=unset&searchParameter2=unset&resultsHowMany=25&resultsSortProperties=%252Bstringfield10%252C%252Bnumberfield1&resultsSortCategoryName=Company&fromColumnClick=&bktDisplayField=stringfield2&bktDisplayFieldLength=2&category1=category&category2=category&passKeyword=&resultsStart=101 |
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Date: November 18th, 2005 6:45 PM Author: lime glittery office yeah, according to that article on him, he makes 5.8 million per year INCLUDING stock uptions. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=301384&forum_id=2#4326510) |
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Date: November 18th, 2005 6:50 PM Author: painfully honest peach ratface principal's office The CEO of Pepsi made a whopping $53 million!!!!!!!!!!!
http://www.forbes.com/static/execpay2005/company_351.html?passListId=12&passYear=2005&passListType=Person&searchParameter1=unset&searchParameter2=unset&resultsHowMany=25&resultsSortProperties=%252Bstringfield10%252C%252Bnumberfield1&resultsSortCategoryName=Company&fromColumnClick=&bktDisplayField=stringfield2&bktDisplayFieldLength=2&category1=category&category2=category&passKeyword=&resultsStart=351 |
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Date: November 18th, 2005 6:50 PM Author: lime glittery office and? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=301384&forum_id=2#4326549) |
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Date: November 18th, 2005 6:52 PM Author: lime glittery office actually you don't know how to read. He made 13.8 mill. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=301384&forum_id=2#4326568) |
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Date: November 18th, 2005 6:51 PM Author: gay diverse kitchen He'll probably get an enormous compensation package and pension when he retires. Face it, CEOs of Fortune 50 companies make 3-20 times what highly compensated corporate law partners make. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=301384&forum_id=2#4326554) |
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Date: November 18th, 2005 6:55 PM Author: lime glittery office I'm not denying that fact.
But I think the difference often gets exaggerated on here.
Also its easier to make partner than it is CEO of a fortune 50 company and you are a partner for a lot longer.
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Date: November 18th, 2005 7:00 PM Author: High-end parlor Okay, but that's for places like Wachtell.
You hvae no shot whatsoever of working there.
HTH. |
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Date: November 18th, 2005 7:01 PM Author: lime glittery office The thing is that I don't really care. You will slit your wrists when you realize you'll never make over 5 figures. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=301384&forum_id=2#4326662) |
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Date: November 18th, 2005 7:02 PM Author: High-end parlor Then why are you posting on this stupid fucking topic then, retard? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=301384&forum_id=2#4326684) |
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Date: November 18th, 2005 7:09 PM Author: lime glittery office because of the constant MBA > JD flame that gets posted. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=301384&forum_id=2#4326765) |
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Date: November 18th, 2005 7:11 PM Author: Startled National In that case you should look for TTT grads doing personal injury who rake in millions and millions on class actions. show how some cooley grad is PWNIng harvard MBAs (even so, i'm not sure what that proves? you clearly aren't much of a critical thinker). (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=301384&forum_id=2#4326787) |
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Date: November 18th, 2005 7:12 PM Author: lime glittery office those types of lawyers are more comparable to somebody like a money manager. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=301384&forum_id=2#4326805) |
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Date: November 18th, 2005 7:13 PM Author: Startled National nothing like conclusionary statements. say, why don't you explain your reasoning. for once. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=301384&forum_id=2#4326811) |
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Date: November 18th, 2005 7:15 PM Author: lime glittery office money managers are more based on what they do on a personal level. Like PI lawyers.
Parterns are more based on what the firm does. Like CEOs. |
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Date: November 18th, 2005 7:16 PM Author: Startled National ? why don't you compare partners at a major consulting firm to partners at wachtel. has it occurred to you THAT might be more relative. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=301384&forum_id=2#4326839) |
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Date: November 18th, 2005 7:19 PM Author: lime glittery office I was reading an article about Coke's CEO, that was what made me decide to make this thread. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=301384&forum_id=2#4326863) |
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Date: November 18th, 2005 7:02 PM Author: gay diverse kitchen Obviously it's easier to become a partner, but the alternatives for someone climbing the corporate ladder, who fails to become a CEO, aren't that bad either. Any large corporation has a large number of corporate officers and many divisions, each witha vice president who makes decent money but probably a bit short of corporate law partner income. I think it's much easier to rise high in a big corporation than it is to to become a partner so you could make your argument the other way too. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=301384&forum_id=2#4326669) |
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Date: November 18th, 2005 6:53 PM Author: Pink racy goal in life school speaking of employee numbers, did you guys know that Berkshire Hathaway, whose market value is 140 billion or so, way higher than Coke, has only about 17 employees???!!! amazing. WSJ reported this.
obviously, this does NOT include employees at the subsidiaries, like Geico, Dairy Queen, or Gen Re. i am talking about actual employees of the holding company. |
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Date: November 18th, 2005 6:58 PM Author: electric sticky prole hominid yeah bh is a fascinating company. i read warren buffet's biography at like 10 and i want to be a sick businessman like him. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=301384&forum_id=2#4326629) |
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Date: November 18th, 2005 7:05 PM Author: Cocky Narrow-minded Pisswyrm Potus What's so fucking amazing about this? A holding company is just a shell. The eployees are probably all directors. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=301384&forum_id=2#4326716) |
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Date: November 18th, 2005 7:08 PM Author: Umber deep jew halford I think they're the people who carry Warren around in one of those thrones with handles. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=301384&forum_id=2#4326751) |
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Date: November 18th, 2005 7:22 PM Author: Razzle-dazzle dead area THATS SO AMAZING.
Idiot. |
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Date: June 24th, 2006 4:43 PM Author: Fragrant community account idiot 17, or almost 200,000, depending on how you look at it (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=301384&forum_id=2#6061654) |
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Date: November 18th, 2005 7:03 PM Author: Cocky Narrow-minded Pisswyrm Potus I can assure you that the CEO of Coca-Cola corp. makes at least 4-5x times what a Wachtell partner makes, if not more. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=301384&forum_id=2#4326692) |
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Date: November 18th, 2005 7:16 PM Author: lime glittery office then do so.
Even counting his stock options he only made 5.8 million. |
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Date: November 18th, 2005 7:53 PM Author: drab dashing selfie http://www2.coca-cola.com/investors/2005_coca-cola_proxy.pdf
Page 28. Can you say PwN3d? |
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Date: November 18th, 2005 7:56 PM Author: Lascivious legal warrant shitlib I wish I had gotten in on the ground floor of being surprised that Coke's CEO's accountant is a lot better than the ones the Wachtell guys use. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=301384&forum_id=2#4327167) |
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Date: June 11th, 2006 11:23 AM Author: Chest-beating domesticated juggernaut toilet seat nice (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=301384&forum_id=2#5958313) |
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Date: November 18th, 2005 7:57 PM Author: Milky Misunderstood Base In Soviet Russia, coke drinks you! (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=301384&forum_id=2#4327170) |
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Date: June 11th, 2006 9:47 AM Author: Bateful marketing idea gas station I'm relatively sure that most Wachtell partners would take an offer to be CEO of Coke in a heartbeat. The difference in overall compensation is simply too large, and to cite compensation numbers that don't include stock options and exit/retirement package is ridiculous. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=301384&forum_id=2#5958172) |
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Date: June 11th, 2006 3:38 PM Author: alcoholic jade incel You do realize that stock options only have value if the stock increases in value over the exercise price, right? Otherwise they have no value whatsoever. This is especially relevant for a stock like Coke that has been relatively flat in recent history--I don't think stock options mean much for a company like this, unless they were issued many, many years ago. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=301384&forum_id=2#5959496) |
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Date: June 12th, 2006 1:11 AM Author: Bateful marketing idea gas station Yes, I know how stock options work and they're not quite as simple as you think. It's not uncommon for companies to use discounted stock options as a vehicle for executive compensation (there's a built-in profit for the exec so long as the price doesn't fall below the discounted price). Plus some of the compensation written into the exit contracts is for outright shares.
Stock options and share grants do give an executive a positive incentive to see the share price increase, but don't think for a second that a CEO is walking away empty handed, even if the stock doesn't rise. Coke actually provides a great example, with the hiring and firing of Doug Ivester a few years ago. He was ousted barely two years into the job and walked away with around $100 million, despite the fact that Coke shares fell during his tenure.
There are certainly valid reasons why one might find being a V1 partner preferable to being a Fortune 100 CEO, but compensation simply isn't one of them. |
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Date: June 11th, 2006 9:56 AM Author: blue pit Besides teh fact he gets considerable stock options, I think most CEOs get huge compensation packages when they leave the company or retire. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=301384&forum_id=2#5958180) |
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Date: June 11th, 2006 10:53 AM Author: lime glittery office it was kind of strange to bump a random thread where I was flame baiting joires. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=301384&forum_id=2#5958257) |
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Date: June 11th, 2006 10:54 AM Author: comical infuriating scourge upon the earth You're welcome. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=301384&forum_id=2#5958259) |
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Date: June 11th, 2006 11:00 AM Author: Know-it-all beady-eyed headpube hissy fit this ceo of coke is relatively new... like a second year partner. let's take a look at what the guy before him was getting.
http://www.responsiblewealth.org/shareholder/2003/Coca-Cola.html |
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Date: June 11th, 2006 12:11 PM Author: Fantasy-prone federal stag film place of business Even if a CEO does make more, so what? Law partners generate every dollar they make. CEO's salaries are set by their friends on the board, and are often far greater than their contribution to the company.
You're comparing the salary of honest people to that of a drug kingpin. |
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Date: June 11th, 2006 5:54 PM Author: flesh electric furnace house stfu (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=301384&forum_id=2#5960128) |
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Date: June 11th, 2006 6:06 PM Author: Fantasy-prone federal stag film place of business you stfu douche (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=301384&forum_id=2#5960186) |
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Date: June 11th, 2006 6:08 PM Author: Boyish pearly death wish old irish cottage No, he's right. You were doing fine until: "You're comparing the salary of honest people to that of a drug kingpin."
STFU. |
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Date: June 11th, 2006 11:15 PM Author: mint church "and are often far greater than their contribution to the company."
getting a salary far greater than your contribution to the company = SWEET
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Date: June 11th, 2006 11:29 PM Author: coiffed native gaping And Google CEOs have a salary of 1 dollar per year (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=301384&forum_id=2#5962990) |
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Date: March 18th, 2007 10:57 PM Author: poppy yapping public bath roommate How did this thread even get going? Anyone who doesn't know enough to know that a Coke CEO job is better than a Wachtell partner job shouldn't be posting (given, of course, that a WLRK partner position is amazing, but really, you can't even compare it with a Fortune 100 CEO position). Seriously. Recent Coke CEOs have become billionaires from nothing (literally...CEO Goizueta came to the U.S. as a broke immigrant and became a billionaire exclusively through Coke compensation). Other CEOs at Coke and at other big companies have similar stories. Not to mention the perks of corporate jets, company-provided security, MASSIVE bonuses (regularly totaling tens of millions of dollars), and being the head of an international corporation (as opposed to one of many partners at a firm). Someone also mentioned stock options, without realizing that restricted stock (which has value even when the stock goes down) is often a crucial component of their compensation packages. Anyway this thread is amusing but it seems that at least a lot of other people who posted are more aware of reality.
One more thing: the reason Coke isn't in Fortune's top 10 is because it is SO large and powerful (in contrast with what some above people said) that it is broken up into the normal company (KO) and the bottling company (CCE), BOTH of which are Fortune 200 companies. So yeah...do your research (and in case you were wondering, the CCE CEO also makes a shitload more than a Wachtell partner). |
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Date: March 18th, 2007 11:00 PM Author: vibrant pontificating locale Not to mention the golden parachutes, the SWeetest part of the deal. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=301384&forum_id=2#7776989) |
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Date: March 18th, 2007 11:16 PM Author: Burgundy soul-stirring travel guidebook FAGGOT ALERT (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=301384&forum_id=2#7777069) |