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Date: July 20th, 2004 4:30 PM Author: Puce filthy headpube plaza How much harder/more time did you study than the average student in your class? Would you say your success was more a product of this effort, natural ability, or something else? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=62140&forum_id=2#1010876) |
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Date: July 20th, 2004 6:43 PM Author: costumed floppy associate property Subject: Less. I think I studied less than the average student at my school, but I never took a poll. I did nothing after 6 (except the day before a paper due date), nothing on weekends, and missed classes like it was my job second semester. On average, I'd say I studied 1-1.5 hrs for each class session. This is far more than I have ever studied in my life, by the way.
I did eventually get most of the reading done and did work like crazy right before finals (12 hours a day for 2-3 days before each final), if that counts. I'd say natural ability and some other intangibles (like being naturally good at writing law school exams) helped more than anything else in my case. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone, but it works for me.
More relevant to what you want to know, I think many law students stress themselves out, belabor trivial issues, and otherwise waste 95% of the additional work they subject themselves to.
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Date: July 20th, 2004 6:47 PM Author: Dull Nudist Indian Lodge Feces Photographic memory, innate genius, efficient study habits, good psychology and being able to interpret professors. One thing I'm not is a hard working grunt. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=62140&forum_id=2#1012244) |
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Date: July 20th, 2004 6:47 PM Author: galvanic citrine stage brethren lol (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=62140&forum_id=2#1012246) |
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Date: July 20th, 2004 6:54 PM Author: Dull Nudist Indian Lodge Feces I'm laughing my way to the Supreme Court. HTH (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=62140&forum_id=2#1012296) |
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Date: July 20th, 2004 7:05 PM Author: galvanic citrine stage brethren We'll see. At least you aren't lacking in confidence. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=62140&forum_id=2#1012361) |
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Date: July 20th, 2004 7:09 PM Author: spruce locale regret Don't overturn Roe v. Wade, okay? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=62140&forum_id=2#1012385) |
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Date: July 20th, 2004 7:10 PM Author: Dull Nudist Indian Lodge Feces I'll be sure to do so. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=62140&forum_id=2#1012394) |
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Date: July 20th, 2004 7:11 PM Author: spruce locale regret Don't be in the majority, okay? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=62140&forum_id=2#1012400) |
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Date: July 20th, 2004 7:12 PM Author: Dull Nudist Indian Lodge Feces I'll bang Sandy to get her to vote with me, Antonin, Bill, and Clarence. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=62140&forum_id=2#1012409) |
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Date: July 20th, 2004 7:13 PM Author: spruce locale regret You'd bang Sandy?! That's conviction.
They'll all be dead by then. |
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Date: July 20th, 2004 7:15 PM Author: Dull Nudist Indian Lodge Feces Me, Sandy, and Ruthie can have a three-some. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=62140&forum_id=2#1012436) |
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Date: July 20th, 2004 7:16 PM Author: spruce locale regret I'll report you for corpse-sex fetish. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=62140&forum_id=2#1012442) |
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Date: July 20th, 2004 7:18 PM Author: Dull Nudist Indian Lodge Feces There are penumbras for my corpse-sex fetish! (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=62140&forum_id=2#1012460) |
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Date: July 20th, 2004 7:20 PM Author: spruce locale regret That was .... cute and... true. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=62140&forum_id=2#1012475) |
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Date: July 20th, 2004 7:21 PM Author: Dull Nudist Indian Lodge Feces There are also penumbras for me to say that Wild Bill Douglas should burn in hell. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=62140&forum_id=2#1012489) |
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Date: July 20th, 2004 7:25 PM Author: spruce locale regret Who the hell is Wild Bill Douglas? Penumbras kick ass. They give the SC the authority the Constitution forgot to give it.
Anyway, my mom is off the cell and wants me to take a walk with her. Bye bye, Justice Asshole (can I call you that). |
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Date: July 20th, 2004 7:26 PM Author: Dull Nudist Indian Lodge Feces Wild Bill invented penumbras. See Griswold v. Conn. They merely give the SC the authority to do whatever they fuck they feel like. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=62140&forum_id=2#1012523) |
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Date: July 21st, 2004 10:11 PM Author: Stimulating Confused Theatre Coffee Pot (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=62140&forum_id=2#1022442) |
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Date: July 21st, 2004 10:14 PM Author: Dull Nudist Indian Lodge Feces The courts could have struck down the statute without ever going into some bullshit penumbra crap that doesn't exist. HTH (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=62140&forum_id=2#1022467) |
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Date: July 22nd, 2004 9:51 AM Author: spruce locale regret I agree that the penumbra stuff is too much. If anything, it would have made more sense to call those rights "fundamental rights." I think they should have done the whole Roe analysis using equal protection. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=62140&forum_id=2#1024350) |
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Date: July 22nd, 2004 10:26 AM Author: Crimson idiot Um, the "penumbras emantating" from the amendments was a pretty much one shot deal in Constitutional law. That mode of analysis was an attempt to avoid a Lochner-style judicial activism by not reading the 14th amendment's "liberty" due process clause as granting the right of privacy. The current consensus is that it is the 14th amendment, not emanations from various unnamed amendments, that protect fundamental rights. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=62140&forum_id=2#1024595) |
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Date: July 23rd, 2004 2:04 PM Author: Dull Nudist Indian Lodge Feces Lochner was everything but judicial activism, dipshit. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=62140&forum_id=2#1036223) |
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Date: July 23rd, 2004 2:07 PM Author: Crimson idiot You don't really understand Constitutional law, do you? Deciding that freedom of contract is a fundamental right that states can't interfere with is the height of judicial acitivism. You have exposed your idiocy, crawl back into the wood work. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=62140&forum_id=2#1036250) |
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Date: July 23rd, 2004 2:19 PM Author: Dull Nudist Indian Lodge Feces It would be judicial activism for COURTS to interfere with the freedom of contract. HTH (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=62140&forum_id=2#1036365) |
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Date: July 23rd, 2004 2:24 PM Author: Crimson idiot That is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. So the Mass Supreme court that has decided not to interfere with the freedom to marry whomever you choose, that's not acitivism either? Fool. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=62140&forum_id=2#1036414) |
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Date: August 2nd, 2004 9:28 AM Author: Aqua fanboi halford If that ever happens I'm moving my ass away from this country forever. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=62140&forum_id=2#1100043) |
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Date: July 20th, 2004 6:55 PM Author: Stimulating Confused Theatre Coffee Pot (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=62140&forum_id=2#1012305) |
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Date: July 20th, 2004 7:03 PM Author: Dull Nudist Indian Lodge Feces I disagree with your gunner approach. My learning style isn't that way -- I'm a sit in the back and get A's kind of guy. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=62140&forum_id=2#1012348) |
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Date: July 21st, 2004 10:12 PM Author: Stimulating Confused Theatre Coffee Pot (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=62140&forum_id=2#1022455) |
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Date: July 21st, 2004 10:15 PM Author: Dull Nudist Indian Lodge Feces I'm not popular in my section. Most people don't really know who I am. I just blend in. Who cares. Whatever it takes to do well. You'd be an idiot douche if you gunned and did shitty.
Where are you trying to xfer to? |
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Date: July 21st, 2004 10:20 PM Author: Stimulating Confused Theatre Coffee Pot (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=62140&forum_id=2#1022494) |
Date: July 20th, 2004 5:54 PM Author: orchid stag film degenerate I am not in top 5%, but I closely observed one such speciemen. She basically has an OCD. She obsesses about every single minute thing. She prepares lists of 20+ questions for each professor almost every week (needless to say those questions are probably not relevant to the exam). She constantly worries even if it is a pass fail class. She cried one time when the professor called on her and she did not know the answer. She studies a lot, but I don't think it is more than most other non top 5% people. I think she is just more into it because she is too obsessed about not getting an A+.
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Date: July 20th, 2004 6:08 PM Author: Exciting garrison I know top 5% that are totally the opposite of that. Of course they study a ton, but not necessarily more than any other student.
I think different people have different aptitudes and ways of approaching things. You never know, so don't assume. Sure, some are OCD, but others are stoners who are just good at taking law exams. |
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Date: July 20th, 2004 6:45 PM Author: spruce locale regret All the top 5% people I know match the stereotype of the OCD worrywart. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=62140&forum_id=2#1012232) |
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Date: July 22nd, 2004 12:22 PM Author: Twinkling godawful box office blood rage I had one in my section who admitted to spending every shred of free time on law school. He's damn smart and has an amazing GPA, but I wouldn't want that life. I don't think I ever saw him at a party. But he's happy with the results and the opportunities they will afford him, so good for him I guess. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=62140&forum_id=2#1025507) |
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Date: July 20th, 2004 6:48 PM Author: Stimulating Confused Theatre Coffee Pot (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=62140&forum_id=2#1012254) |
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Date: July 25th, 2004 12:23 PM Author: Autistic space Sit in the front, speak in every class, and make friends with professors in lieu of parties with your classmates. Sounds like a truly satisfying life. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=62140&forum_id=2#1046888) |
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Date: July 20th, 2004 6:51 PM Author: multi-colored canary den Top 5%: Did you use commercial outlines and if so, did you use them as your primary study tool? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=62140&forum_id=2#1012269) |
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Date: July 20th, 2004 6:54 PM Author: Stimulating Confused Theatre Coffee Pot (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=62140&forum_id=2#1012289) |
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Date: July 20th, 2004 8:29 PM Author: costumed floppy associate property Commercial outlines will not be your primary study tool and get you A's, in my opinion. They might be good for polar opposite students: the one who knows nothing and has no time whatsoever to learn the class, and the one who has done everything else and has such a complex about studying that they just need to do even more of it.
That said, 2 specific ones helped me without being a primary tool:
1. West's High Court Case summaries are a gem when they are keyed to your casebook and you don't want to read for class. Read a 1 page brief and don't worry about the prof calling on you for stupid case recitation.
2. E&E's to get a feel for how to approach law school questions and analyze issues. If I were studying harder, I'd use E&E's alongside class to apply what I'm learning as I learn it. But even when you did your outline 2 days before the exam, E&E's (along with the prof's old exams) are a great way to use the extra day. |
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Date: July 21st, 2004 2:57 PM Author: Puce filthy headpube plaza Subject: Long Duck Duck,
To put your abilities in perspective. Did you come into law school with the one of the highest LSATS and summa cum laude? Not that I am trying to take anything away from all that hard work, just curious. I am willing to work hard also and based on my schools numbers I should have some of the highest stats. I tend to think it will mean little once classes start and work ethic will mean 20x more, but maybe I can boost my confidence ;-)
Congrats on finishing third in you class. Quite and accomplishment. |
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Date: July 21st, 2004 8:42 PM Author: costumed floppy associate property Subject: Since he has not answered, I will. In my opinion, individual ability can be very important, but so can studying efficiently and intelligently. Since you seem interested in stats, I am at the top of my class and my lsat is 16 pts above the 75th percentile for the school. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=62140&forum_id=2#1021933) |
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Date: July 21st, 2004 8:52 PM Author: galvanic citrine stage brethren 16 pts above the 75th percentile? Wow. You must feel like you are surrounded by idiots. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=62140&forum_id=2#1021957) |
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Date: July 21st, 2004 8:55 PM Author: costumed floppy associate property Subject: Not at all. Many of my classmates are extremely intelligent and thoughtful, and I feel privileged to go to school with them. I just happened to naturally be very good at the LSAT! (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=62140&forum_id=2#1021973) |
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Date: July 21st, 2004 8:56 PM Author: galvanic citrine stage brethren And humble too. :) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=62140&forum_id=2#1021977) |
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Date: July 21st, 2004 8:59 PM Author: costumed floppy associate property Subject: Ha! Tonight I am. I seem to convince myself I'm a moron who doesn't even belong in law school one day, but then decide I'm one step above Oliver Wendell Holmes the very next. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=62140&forum_id=2#1021993) |
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Date: July 21st, 2004 9:07 PM Author: Red angry temple good god, inferiority comlpex any where. you afraid of a little competition, schalorships alone can't account for your choice. you would have to be mentally handicaped to not be in the top 5%, but good on ya for doing exactly what was expected of you at your LS.
side note: i was in the fifth grade and aced a third grade math exam |
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Date: July 21st, 2004 9:11 PM Author: galvanic citrine stage brethren May I introduce you to my friend the Shift key? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=62140&forum_id=2#1022063) |
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Date: July 21st, 2004 9:18 PM Author: costumed floppy associate property Subject: Thanks for your support! Your analogy is horrible; I hope it doesn't reflect how you did on the LSAT. (See, I too can make bad analogies!) I did not choose my current school because of "schalorships," and I am not mentally "handicaped." I did turn down some higher-ranked schools, but cost had nothing to do with my decision.
Also, my UGPA (3.1) did not match my LSAT (179), thanks to all of the interesting things I did in lieu of showing up for things like classes and final exams many years ago. So HYS were out for me, although I do hope to transfer. Not that it matters, but I am quite sure I can do more than just compete at any law school. |
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Date: July 21st, 2004 11:36 PM Author: Red angry temple i apologize for my analogy, it was written in pure haste. maybe you can understand this a little better.
i took a test that was intended to measure my ability to preform X, from this test my ablity was measured to be far superior to those who took the same test whom i would be preforming X with. i preformed X better than those i preformed with. this was to be expected.
a man of your abilty should also be able to discover, even without the shift key, that i did not say you were mentally handicaped, but the exact opposite. you are mentally capable to preform the task you set out to do.
rah rah to you once again |
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Date: July 21st, 2004 8:56 PM Author: Flatulent Pocket Flask Cruise Ship If I am not mistaken, I believe Long Duck had a very mediocre LSAT/GPA...he went to a TTT first year and transferred, I think... (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=62140&forum_id=2#1021980) |
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Date: July 21st, 2004 10:09 PM Author: Stimulating Confused Theatre Coffee Pot (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=62140&forum_id=2#1022434) |
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Date: July 21st, 2004 10:15 PM Author: Stimulating Confused Theatre Coffee Pot (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=62140&forum_id=2#1022473) |
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Date: July 21st, 2004 11:15 PM Author: Red angry temple right you are, every high scorers worst nightmare is a hard nosed under achiever with excellent work habits and an ax to grind. they are ones you can't account for.
sorry about the shift button it sticks a little, my tears of joy for sbtbLoser and his achievements seem to have hindered its function |
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Date: July 22nd, 2004 7:35 AM Author: Thirsty Gaming Laptop Gas Station I pulled top 5% last semester, or at least something close to it (they don't give us anything other than the median grade for 1Ls)
What I did:
1) Read every case carefully. I'd book brief by using different colored highlighters, and made some margin notes as well. I would rarely actually refer back to the cases when studying for exams, the highlighting and margin notes are more to make sure I understand as I go along.
2) Make sure you understand the reasoning behind the holding. You won't be able apply to the law to an exam hypo if you don't understand the rationale behind it.
3) Go to most of your classes. It's not absolutely critical you attend every single one, but I wouldn't miss more than one every two or three weeks. You can learn the law and pull a B+ w/out going to class much, but it's tough to get an A.
4) When taking notes in class, just write down the important stuff the professor says. don't waste time and concentration writing down student comments, the court's reasoning, etc.
5) Start outlining a month to three weeks before exams start. some people outline throughout the semester, but i think outlining is mostly useful as a review tool. but you'll want to leave yourself enough time to finish. outlining is the time to combine the cases, your class notes, and commercial outlines/hornbooks. outlining is good because you have to be able to understand the material to synthesize it.
6) This was the key to doing well for me--while outlining, make sure you totally understand every aspect of what you're writing. if you don't, spend more time on it until you do. or make a note of it and ask the professor to clarify. but don't think, "this isn't important" or "it won't be on the exam".
7) if your legal practice course is pass/fail, don't waste a lot of time on it.
8) don't kill yourself. i probably studied 6-8 hours a day during reading period (which is a lot more than it sounds), and averaged 3-4 hours of reading/studying during the semester.
9) some of it is just inherent ability. i'm a very good writer and have a knack for writing exam essays. if you're a crummy writer it's going to be difficult to pull top 5% regardless of how much you study. |
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Date: July 22nd, 2004 9:07 AM Author: Massive razzle-dazzle ape digit ratio Subject: Much of this is sound advice... I am close to top-5% at a top-20 (admittedly, not Michigan) and I believe that much of what this poster says is true.
My additions:
Get outlines from 2L's who had the same professor the year before and did well (A's, preferably). This doesn't mean you shouldn't make your own... you should, as a method of review - but if someone has done it better than you in the end, scrap yours and use theirs. I am not anal retentive, but I prefer the outlines of those who are.
Use old outlines as your primary reference source before consulting study guides. Supplements are useful to understand various topics which are troubling you, but they are useless for most law school exams, as exams tend to be very professor-specific.
I didn't book brief - I made briefs of each of my cases, similar to this posters "read each case carefully." I read each case once, at a standard attention level, and used my brief more as an opportunity to review the relevant law. Either way is probably appropriate. Just don't waste too much time on briefs. 4-8 lines should do, less as you get further into the semester.
Go to class. Exams are professor specific... much of it is a psychological guessing game. There's no way to know what the professor is interested in or what slant their exam will take unless you spend as much time in class with them as possible. And that means going. Half the people in my torts class didn't realize that our prof was a law and econ guy... thus, when exam time came and they had their Gilberts Torts out, ready to go... they were f***ed. His questions came straight from his lectures, and hardly represented your typical torts syllabus.
Sadly, a lot of it is innate. Hard work can make up for some of it, but not all of it... and a combo of hard work and talent, like most things, will win everytime. Unlike college, you cannot will your way to top-5%. Some people have "it" (despite what LEEWS says) and others don't. But there are varying degrees, and acumen has a lot to do with it. Good luck to all. |
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Date: July 22nd, 2004 9:29 AM Author: Stimulating Confused Theatre Coffee Pot (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=62140&forum_id=2#1024260) |
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Date: July 22nd, 2004 10:25 AM Author: Thirsty Gaming Laptop Gas Station I'd like to note that some classes are made prof specific much easier than other courses are.
Torts and Property--these classes can be very prof specific, because these are areas where law & econ can really come into play.
Crim Law--Can be prof specific, depending on how theoretical he/she is.
Civ Pro--Some profs might emphasize different areas, but this is a pretty standard class. The FRCP are the FRCP.
Con Law--This can be prof specific just because the field is vast and they can emphasize different areas. You could have one who's big into constitutional theory, otherwise Chemerensky's hornbook will serve you well.
Contracts--This is a pretty standardized class, but you could run into somebody who's very UCC heavy, and you'll focus on that instead of the caselaw.
Re: commercial outlines. I purchased an outline and/or hornbook for every class, and found them very useful. Even if you don't want to buy them it's worth checking the hornbooks at the library when you're not clear on something.
Outlining--Different people do different things, so I'd say whatever works for you. For me it is all about the process, not the finished product. I agree that it's easier to wait in the 2nd semester when you're better at reading cases, but I think you're better off starting a month before exams and working intensely then you are starting in September, doing it for a few weeks, and then putting them aside until December. Older student outlines are useful to have, but remember that they might not be 100% accurate. They're nice for filling in gaps in your notes though. |
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Date: July 22nd, 2004 10:10 AM Author: out-of-control offensive prole cuck Good job on your grades.
I'm a 2L also. I am not close to you in terms of my GPA, but I agree with a lot of what you said. Student comments are usually useless to write down. I took good notes and tried to understand them 100% before I went in to take the exam. That method only worked for me some of the time, though. My grades range all the way from a straight A to a straight B and everwhere in between. Yet I feel like I did the exact same thing for every single class.
Maybe I need to start using different colored markers. :) |
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Date: July 22nd, 2004 10:36 AM Author: Thirsty Gaming Laptop Gas Station We're probably closer GPA-wise then you think, because it was the second semester that I really aced (3.8+ in my three 1L courses). First semester I was a solid B+ student, so I've also gotten a range of grades.
Are you doing OCI? |
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Date: July 22nd, 2004 10:43 AM Author: out-of-control offensive prole cuck Yes, I'm doing OCI. I'm aiming for Boston and DC. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=62140&forum_id=2#1024730) |
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Date: July 22nd, 2004 12:12 PM Author: Thirsty Gaming Laptop Gas Station I'm doing almost all D.C. I'd love to get into Covington or W & C, but more likely I'll end up at a firm like Hogan or a branch office. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=62140&forum_id=2#1025397) |
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Date: July 22nd, 2004 12:25 PM Author: Twinkling godawful box office blood rage Just so you know, I hear it is *extremely* difficult to get a summer associateship at W&C. However, they're trying to expand, and gtting a job with them after you have a year or two under your belt is supposedly pretty attainable if you went somewhere at least respectable. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=62140&forum_id=2#1025541) |
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Date: July 25th, 2004 7:34 PM Author: Thirsty Gaming Laptop Gas Station Yeah, after reading some postings here it sounds as though you have to have Wachtell-esque qualifications, which I definitely don't. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=62140&forum_id=2#1048368) |
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Date: July 22nd, 2004 12:30 PM Author: out-of-control offensive prole cuck No... competition... aaack.. cough... :)
Seriously, good luck with those firms. Of the ones you mentioned, I think I am applying only to Hogan. I would be happy to get in there. Their median GPA of offers is above mine, but I think it's still in my range. I'm not going much higher though.
At least you know you'll make a decent amount of money, and if you go to a firm that is less "prestigious," you probably won't be working as hard. |
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Date: July 25th, 2004 7:35 PM Author: Thirsty Gaming Laptop Gas Station Right, you'll make the same 125k at Crowell & Moring that you'll make at W & C. And you'll work fewer hours doing it. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=62140&forum_id=2#1048372) |
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Date: July 22nd, 2004 10:16 AM Author: Ultramarine school yarmulke Serious question...
You said said that you should only worry about writing down the important stuff in class notes, and then listed examples of unimportant stuff, including what the court's reasoning was. Wouldn't this be an important piece of info when applying or extending a case as precedent or making a policy argument? I am under the impression that it's not just about understanding what the rule is, but understanding why the rule is what it is (the grey areas surrounding the rule). |
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Date: July 22nd, 2004 10:28 AM Author: Thirsty Gaming Laptop Gas Station Sorry I wasn't clear -- the court's reasoning is extremely important. I'm just saying you shouldn't type it into your notes during class. Do it while you're doing your reading the night before, or after class. Whatever works for you.
Your last sentence is the key to law school. If you truly understand the rationale behind the holding you are all set. |
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Date: July 25th, 2004 10:15 AM Author: orchid stag film degenerate I did exactly the same thing as this person did at the same law school. Never missed a class, always read ahead, always stayed on top of things, participated moderately (maybe spoke once a week), outlined throughout the semester. I did not finish in the top 5%. Probably in the top 30%.
I know a lot of people who did the same thing and finished worse. So I think #9 makes a whole lot of difference. |
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Date: August 30th, 2004 11:32 PM Author: spectacular zombie-like water buffalo Bump now that it means something to many of us lil' ones. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=62140&forum_id=2#1264111) |
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Date: July 22nd, 2004 8:59 AM Author: Ultramarine school yarmulke So, to summarize this thread...
Outlining: Start right away, but don't start until a month before exams.
Hard work: Hard work is important, and all you need is inate intelligence.
Participating in class: Don't be a gunner, but speak up enough so that everyone hates you.
Study Techniques: Don't worry about the less important stuff, and it is good if you obsess over every little thing.
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Date: July 22nd, 2004 9:24 AM Author: Sexy underhanded principal's office Subject: ... (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=62140&forum_id=2#1024236) |
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Date: July 22nd, 2004 9:39 AM Author: Massive razzle-dazzle ape digit ratio Subject: it depends.... I took the one-day LEEWS after taking my midterms... I took the exams and freaked out and thought that I was in deep trouble. I ended up doing really well in spite of my feelings after the test. To do it over again, no, I would not have bothered. LEEWS is useful if you have NO idea what to expect from a law school exam. Part of their (well, really, it is just one guy) selling point is that there is no "right stuff." That it can be learned. I don't buy that. There is "right stuff" and some people have it and others have less of it and can make up for it with hard work. Regardless, I think he tries to put a framework around what is a very diverse, varied process and in the end oversimplifies things. I also don't like his "matched pairings" which is applicable in only a handful of exam situations. I prefer Kenny Hegland's Nutshell book, which was recommended to me prior to law school and which gives a very good overview of a law school exam. I also recommend Glannon's "Peeling Back the Onion" chapter from his torts Examples and Explanations. Both will serve you far better than LEEWS.
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Date: July 22nd, 2004 9:51 AM Author: Stimulating Confused Theatre Coffee Pot (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=62140&forum_id=2#1024348) |
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Date: July 22nd, 2004 9:42 AM Author: Puce filthy headpube plaza Subject: rico Threads on LEEWS come up with regularity on here. The general consensus has been it is rather worthless, and can actually give you a too narrow-minded view of law school exams. It's like a $125 cheerleader that personally seems like a waste. Unless your friend gives it to you for free in which case maybe it is worth glancing through. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=62140&forum_id=2#1024294) |
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Date: July 22nd, 2004 9:45 AM Author: Stimulating Confused Theatre Coffee Pot (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=62140&forum_id=2#1024313) |
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Date: July 22nd, 2004 9:42 AM Author: Stimulating Confused Theatre Coffee Pot (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=62140&forum_id=2#1024295) |
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Date: July 22nd, 2004 10:59 AM Author: Ultramarine school yarmulke How do you find out who is an "A" student? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=62140&forum_id=2#1024844) |
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Date: July 23rd, 2004 9:34 AM Author: Stimulating Confused Theatre Coffee Pot (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=62140&forum_id=2#1034072) |
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Date: July 23rd, 2004 9:36 AM Author: Buff high-end trump supporter wet nurse in a war zone? hello? anybody home? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=62140&forum_id=2#1034078) |
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Date: July 23rd, 2004 9:42 AM Author: Stimulating Confused Theatre Coffee Pot (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=62140&forum_id=2#1034101) |
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Date: July 22nd, 2004 9:45 AM Author: dead razzle school cafeteria I don't quite qualify, since I am somewhere between top 5% and top 10% (as a rising 3L at a CCN). But I was dead on the median as of the middle of 1L, and barely scraped into the top 20% as of the beginning of 2L, so I was getting top 5% grades consistently as a 2L, and hope to keep doing so as a 3L. For me, I'd say it is 10% staying on top of the reading and going to class consistently (things that drop off notably for many people after 1L year, by the way), 20% having somewhat of a knack for legal reasoning, and 70% smart course selection.
Smart course selection in my case is not so much a matter of content as a matter of the format of the graded assignments (term paper, reaction papers, essay exam with/without limits, multiple choice exam, inclass/take-home exam, and so forth). That is because I am not so great at writing exams, particularly inclass exams without a word limit where the goal is to get down something plausible on both sides of as many issues as possible (hence my struggles in 1L before my grades in LRW and an elective course kicked in). But give me a paper class, and I am pretty confident that I can write my way to at least a very good grade. And I will take as many multiple choice exam classes as I can find, but they are rare--probably for good reason.
All this is background for the following claim: there is more than one way to solve this law school puzzle. Most people who grade really well will do it the standard way, namely taking the usual courses and doing consistently well on the exams. But there are alternatives for those of us who cannot take that path, although in my case that means prioritizing format when making course selections--but I seem to have no ability to predict which classes I will find interesting or not, so that does not really bother me. |
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Date: July 22nd, 2004 9:48 AM Author: Stimulating Confused Theatre Coffee Pot (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=62140&forum_id=2#1024330) |
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Date: July 22nd, 2004 9:50 AM Author: Puce filthy headpube plaza Subject: Long Duck You mentioned in another thread I could email you. If you don't mind posting your email on here I would def. like to keep in contact. Your advice on here is the best I have seen. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=62140&forum_id=2#1024347) |
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Date: July 22nd, 2004 9:54 AM Author: Stimulating Confused Theatre Coffee Pot By the way, the above person was right -- the MPC is only persuasive authority, and not law, unless adopted by statute, such as in Kentucky. But still -- act with purpose, the highest mental state out there!
Yeah, I'm thinking of how to post an email address, without outing myself too much. You don't have a criminal record, do you? :)
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Date: July 22nd, 2004 10:00 AM Author: Puce filthy headpube plaza Nah promise. Well one minor felony
Post it and edit after like 2 min |
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Date: July 23rd, 2004 1:57 AM Author: Cerise Sick Base dude, no shit.......I am an upcoming 1L, and I am going to print out this entire thread. What a great collection of advice!! I am definitely going to follow a lot of it- and a lot of it sounds like what I read in "Law School Confidential." (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=62140&forum_id=2#1032763) |
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Date: July 23rd, 2004 2:44 PM Author: Massive razzle-dazzle ape digit ratio Subject: one more piece of advice... DO NOT be impressed by college pedigree. Most of the HYP students at my law school ended up with very average GPAs. As for me... I was considered a very borderline admit - the bottom 10% for my incoming UG GPA (though roughly the 75% for my LSAT) So don't be intimidated when others have crazy GPAs or LSATs, or passed up better law schools for scholarship money. That means s**t.
I finally decided to start working... I had never applied myself before. I am very pleased with the result. |
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Date: July 25th, 2004 12:14 PM Author: Mint chapel gunner Would you mind sharing your stats and school?
I think I am in a similar situation and plan to start applying myself. |
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Date: July 27th, 2004 11:02 AM Author: Massive razzle-dazzle ape digit ratio Subject: It is a school ranked #20... If you look at the stats for those schools, you can safely assume that my GPA was .6 or so below the median and my LSAT was 4 or 5 points higher. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=62140&forum_id=2#1059450) |
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Date: July 25th, 2004 7:37 PM Author: Thirsty Gaming Laptop Gas Station I totally agree with this. I had a good GPA for UMich but an LSAT a couple points below the 25%, and I had multiple HYP people in my section. I was just hoping to end up in the top half of the class, but if you stay focused and work hard you can beat the crap out of the snot that went to Princeton. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=62140&forum_id=2#1048387) |
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Date: July 25th, 2004 12:19 AM Author: bateful opaque brunch national security agency i didn't study very much at all. during the semester i was typically two weeks behind on all my reading, but i'd cram like a mofo for the last 3-4 weeks. i drank a lot and was really involved in student groups too. also had relationship drama.
i always think i failed after every class, but for some reason, for two consecutive semesters now, the magic has just happened. i don't know.
i go to one of the T14s, although i should mention that i don't think most of my classmates are remarkably intelligent. so, and i don't mean this in at all a snotty way, maybe i'm just plain smarter than the people here. i had a tough college major and a relatively low gpa that probably limited my options law school-wise. |
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Date: July 27th, 2004 10:12 AM Author: Irradiated market private investor Subject: top 5% It's easy to be at the top. Just attend a school for which you are over-qualified. Frankly, to maintain a position two standard deviations beyond the mean, you must be that much better than everyone around you. If you are already at a top flight school, you either have that innate ability or you don't. Otherwise, stay below your proper station and rake in the A's. Personally, I think it's better to scrape your way into the top school, and then coast from there. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=62140&forum_id=2#1059196) |
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Date: July 27th, 2004 10:31 AM Author: Ultramarine school yarmulke I don't so much care about being in top 5%. Top 25% is really all I need/want. I'd like law review too, but I'm not too hung up on that idea. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=62140&forum_id=2#1059290) |
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Date: August 1st, 2004 1:49 PM Author: Transparent Haunted Graveyard Partner I know many people for whom that didn't work. Nice try though. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=62140&forum_id=2#1094715) |
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Date: July 31st, 2004 12:20 AM Author: Painfully honest scourge upon the earth I am top 3% (#6 of 177) at a lower Tier 1. I started outlines from Day 1. I missed two days of class the entire year. I wasn't a gunner and I didn't frequent the professor's offices, but I did pick out a couple that I really liked and got to know them.
The important thing is knowing how to write a legal exam. I didn't buy a single commercial outline and did not use other people's outlines. I read a small book on taking a law school exam. I printed off old exams (on the internet) and took them under the same time conditions. I practiced spotting issues in class. When we would read cases, I would try and decide the case before I read what the judges actually decided.
I spent every Saturday of the year doing outlines for 12-14 hours a day and every Sunday for 6-8 hours. It was brutal, but I had a goal: top 5%.
By the way, I did this with four children and a husband in the military, so if I can do it, you can do it. It takes focus, commitment and a love of the law. Good luck!!! |
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Date: July 31st, 2004 12:22 AM Author: Orange narrow-minded corner philosopher-king did you apply to transfer? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=62140&forum_id=2#1087845) |
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Date: July 31st, 2004 11:12 AM Author: Painfully honest scourge upon the earth Hi!
Yes, I have applied to transfer to Harvard and University of Texas. I would have had a great shot at a lot of the Top 14's, but my husband is stationed at Fort Hood so we need to stay in the area. As for Harvard, that has always been a dream and if I happened to get in, well, we would do something drastic to make it happen.
The 12-14 hours a day was not a typo. I would get up at 7am and set myself up at the kitchen table downstairs. I would not stop outlines until later that night. NOW, granted, there were many interruptions (mom, my roller blades won't work; mom, there's no clean underwear), but for the most part, my husband took over on Saturdays and would make that his day with the kids--taking them places, fishing, etc. You also have to understand that I had ZERO time during the week to do any outlines. I would come home (an hour commute from school), make dinner, help the kids with their homework and get them into bed at 8pm. Then, I'd do my reading for the next day until midnight or 1am--it was brutal.
I waited 15 years to go to law school. I was ready to do what it takes. My kids have heard my dream for years and they were just as excited as me when I got my acceptance, so they don't begrudge me the time. This Summer, I did not even interview for a job as I knew I needed to give them some extra time as their dad is now in Iraq (he left earlier this year). I try to keep my priorities straight.
If you are not in my situation (and most people aren't), I doubt you will need the same amount of hours on the weekend as I did. However, as the poster said, it worked for me. Baylor is actually on a quarter system, so the Fall starters are ranked with the Spring starters and Summer starters. In reality, I was likely #2 out of my first year class (86 students)--kind of makes the hours worth it. :-)
It's all about a goal and what you're willing to do to reach it. Can you imagine if I actually got into Harvard? Believe me, you'll hear me screaming all the way from Texas. |
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Date: July 31st, 2004 12:24 AM Author: appetizing milky lay Holy shit.
12-14 hours a day on outlines every single Sat? Dude, this seems a bit much. Either you are super crazy anal or you are doing something unecessary. I have yet to read on teh board someone consistently spending this much time outlining every Sat.
Is this right? |
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Date: July 31st, 2004 12:27 AM Author: Orange narrow-minded corner philosopher-king she's not a dude. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=62140&forum_id=2#1087869) |
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Date: July 31st, 2004 12:28 AM Author: appetizing milky lay I call everyone dude. Is this a problem? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=62140&forum_id=2#1087873) |
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Date: July 31st, 2004 12:30 AM Author: Orange narrow-minded corner philosopher-king not particularly. I agree her hours seem a bit much, but everybody needs to study different amounts to feel comfortable. |
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Date: July 31st, 2004 12:31 AM Author: appetizing milky lay I agree but that seems like a ridiculous amount of time and with 4 kids no less.
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Date: July 31st, 2004 12:33 AM Author: Orange narrow-minded corner philosopher-king well, it seems to have paid off for her. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=62140&forum_id=2#1087894) |
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Date: July 31st, 2004 9:55 AM Author: mind-boggling lodge This has been a great thread, but one thing that has been left out is pre-writing exam answers. There are some questions on exams that you know you are going to get. If it's an open book exam, type out the introductory rules for that section so you don't have to worry about forgetting one in the exam, how you want to organize them on the exam, etc.
For my civ pro exa, the teacher wanted "magic language" lifted directly from the cases for personal jurisdiction, subject matter jurisdiction, notice, etc. I typed up about 1/3 to 1/2 page "answers" for these questions and just typed them in during the exam. I Calied that class so I think it was a good approach. Of course you can only pre-write the rules, not the application of the rules to the facts, as you don't know the facts yet. Not only do you get the mental relief that you've got all the relevant rules, but your brain gets a 5 minute break as you simply copy them into the exam. Plus, you save time because you don't have to stop and think, you just copy.
Not all exams lend themselves to this--just plucking the rules from an outline is sometimes more appropriate, but for exams that did every top student that I know prewrote answers. |
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Date: August 2nd, 2004 9:25 AM Author: Ultramarine school yarmulke Whether because I'm not in law school or because I'm stupid, I don't understand exactly what you mean when you say to "pre-write" answers. Are you pre-writing your analysis of a rule or idea? What does this analysis entail? How can you do this without incorporating the facts? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=62140&forum_id=2#1100034) |
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Date: August 2nd, 2004 10:56 AM Author: Crimson idiot The only "prewriting" that helps is doing practice exams. While it can't hurt to think up hypos and draft an answer to them, but from my own eperience what I thought would be on the exam was waaay off. Those LS profs can really toss you a curveball. Also, I've never heard "calied a class," it's always "booked a class." (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=62140&forum_id=2#1100336) |
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Date: August 2nd, 2004 12:37 PM Author: Transparent Haunted Graveyard Partner Wrong.
I pre-wrote probably over 60% of my Crim Law final because I knew what kind of questions the prof was going to ask (and it was open book).
So, regardless of the particular fact situation, if you know you'll have to write "Issue: whether Larry's decision to knock down the bees' nest is manslaughter or murder, Rule: murder requires malice aforethought...etc." you can pre write a lot of stuff, mainly rules, and make sure you get them absolutely correct. |
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Date: August 2nd, 2004 12:51 PM Author: Ultramarine school yarmulke So, basically you are spotting general hypos that you can expect to see (e.g. manslaughter vs. murder). This makes sense, because that may be a common or big issue in your class. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=62140&forum_id=2#1101116) |
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Date: August 2nd, 2004 12:58 PM Author: Puce filthy headpube plaza Subject: This seems like an excellent suggestion With all the general rules you can focus your time on issue spotting. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=62140&forum_id=2#1101161) |
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Date: August 2nd, 2004 1:02 PM Author: Ultramarine school yarmulke Yeah, it's a great suggestion. I doubt it would even take that much extra time, considering you are already typing outlines with most of the subject matter needed for this pre-writing. Getting To Maybe recommends this as well, although they describe it differently. Basically, if you notice grey areas or conflicts that often arise or that are brought up by your professor, you should have those ideas well thought out before exam time. Writing them out is just going one step further. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=62140&forum_id=2#1101195) |
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Date: August 2nd, 2004 1:06 PM Author: Puce filthy headpube plaza Subject: The pitfall would be to go into an exam under-prepared because you have the rules as a crutch. Nevertheless I will try to use it. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=62140&forum_id=2#1101228) |
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Date: August 2nd, 2004 1:10 PM Author: Ultramarine school yarmulke Pre-writing the exam is preparing for the exam. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=62140&forum_id=2#1101257) |
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Date: August 3rd, 2004 9:47 PM Author: Crimson idiot Take what you hear on this board with a huge grain of salt. Prewriting is a waste of time. Profs provide practice exams for a reason, use those hypos to draft answers, not making shit up yourself and answering your own questions. If there is a general gray area, the prof will have it in their practice exams, you won't need to think up hypos on the mailbox rule or nondelagable duties or bona fide purchasers. LS is all about seperating the wheat from the chaff, and while other students are running around buying every supplement, prewriting answers, and amassing 100+ page outlines, you should conserved your energy for more productive uses. I did it and finished top 1%. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=62140&forum_id=2#1112941) |
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Date: August 4th, 2004 8:34 AM Author: Ultramarine school yarmulke So what do you consider the productive types of studying in law school? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=62140&forum_id=2#1114865) |
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Date: August 4th, 2004 8:44 AM Author: Crimson idiot Reading the cases and going to class. I can't stress the latter enough since some people will claim that going to class is a waste, but it isn't. The Socratic method works by forcing you to question your own assumptions, and the profs are highly skilled at helping you with this process. Then when you read the cases, think beyond the facts and reasoning--why did this decision happen, what is the policy behind it, etc.? This will prepare you for when the profs write a fact pattern on the final completely different from what you've ever encountered before--they want to see how you can apply the logic and reasoning used in previous cases to solve a completely novel question. LS is not memorizing black letter law, though that is foundational for some classes like crim, but the profs already figure that everyone knows the black letter law and ask questions beyond it. Remember--it's thinking, not memorizing, that earns you that A. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=62140&forum_id=2#1114882) |
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Date: August 4th, 2004 8:52 AM Author: Ultramarine school yarmulke Cool. That's pretty much what I've read. Regarding getting to know your professor's wants, obviously going to class and practicing old exams helps a lot, but is there anything else you would suggest? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=62140&forum_id=2#1114897) |
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Date: August 4th, 2004 10:51 AM Author: Crimson idiot Have fun. LS is a great experience that will fly by (though at times neither above statements will seem true.) Like boot camp, when you reach the other side of 1L you will be a changed person. But along the way make time to hang out with friends, go to football games (if your school has a good team), go to the social events early on, and don't stress about school in the beginning of the semester--you have three and a half months until finals. LS is an endurance test, and as long as you keep up all semester long, everything will work out for the best. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=62140&forum_id=2#1115449) |
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Date: August 4th, 2004 10:55 AM Author: Ultramarine school yarmulke At UVA, we play softball! (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=62140&forum_id=2#1115479) |
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Date: August 30th, 2004 11:45 PM Author: Violet piazza It depends on the professor, but i agree with this. Some profs what you to analyze every element of every doctrine/issue that comes up on an exam, whereas others just want to say what's important. If you have a professer that wants you to cover every detail, then prewriting templates for various doctrines can save you valuable time (i.e. having the elements of claim preclusion and issue preclusion already written out and neatly formatted so you can just pop in your analysis of the facts will save you time) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=62140&forum_id=2#1264178) |
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Date: August 1st, 2004 1:47 PM Author: Transparent Haunted Graveyard Partner I don't think I studied more than average. I think, for many exams, I studied better than average, though. I agree with Godot (whom I think I know, if I remember correctly), about prewriting answers. Basically, you've got to know the material, but the key to consistent success is studying for the test. You have to practice writing down your answer to the point where you know the structure you plan on using and which rules you will be applying where.
This makes test-taking more comfortable and rote, and cuts down on the chances you'll accidently leave out some important detail, rather than a stressful experience.
I hardly even used commercial study aids; only to shore up my own lacking notes when I couldn't get good notes from classmates. |