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Question about European feudalism.
| Stirring Milky Home | 06/14/13 |
| Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat | 05/29/25 |
| Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat | 05/29/25 |
| Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat | 06/03/25 |
| Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat | 06/08/25 |
| Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat | 07/01/25 |
| Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat | 07/03/25 |
| Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat | 07/06/25 |
| Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat | 07/08/25 |
| Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat | 07/13/25 |
| Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat | 07/14/25 |
| Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat | 07/16/25 |
| Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat | 07/20/25 |
| Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat | 07/24/25 |
| Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat | 07/29/25 |
| Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat | 07/30/25 |
| Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat | 08/04/25 |
| Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat | 08/10/25 |
| Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat | 11/11/25 |
| Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat | 11/11/25 |
| Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat | 11/11/25 |
| Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat | 11/11/25 |
| Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat | 11/12/25 |
| Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat | 11/12/25 |
| Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat | 11/13/25 |
| Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat | 11/13/25 |
| Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat | 11/16/25 |
| Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat | 11/16/25 |
| Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat | 11/17/25 |
| Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat | 11/18/25 |
| Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat | 11/23/25 |
| Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat | 11/24/25 |
| Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat | 11/24/25 |
| Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat | 11/24/25 |
| Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat | 11/26/25 |
| Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat | 11/26/25 |
| Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat | 11/26/25 |
| Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat | 11/27/25 |
| Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat | 11/28/25 |
| Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat | 12/02/25 |
| Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat | 12/04/25 |
| Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat | 12/04/25 |
| Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat | 12/07/25 |
| Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat | 12/08/25 |
| Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat | 12/08/25 |
| Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat | 12/09/25 |
| Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat | 12/10/25 |
| Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat | 12/16/25 |
| Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat | 12/18/25 |
| Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat | 12/21/25 |
| Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat | 12/22/25 |
| Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat | 12/24/25 |
| Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat | 12/28/25 |
| Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat | 12/28/25 |
| Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat | 12/29/25 |
| Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat | 01/04/26 |
| Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat | 01/06/26 |
| Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat | 01/12/26 |
| Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat | 01/14/26 |
| Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat | 01/20/26 |
| Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat | 04/23/26 |
| Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat | 04/23/26 |
| Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat | 05/13/26 |
| Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat | 05/19/26 |
| Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat | 05/21/26 |
| Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat | 05/25/26 |
| Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat | 05/26/26 |
| nyuug | 05/28/26 |
| nyuug | 06/03/26 |
| Nubile alpha temple | 05/29/25 |
| Exhilarant party of the first part | 05/29/25 |
| Nubile alpha temple | 05/29/25 |
| Exhilarant party of the first part | 05/29/25 |
| Nubile alpha temple | 05/29/25 |
| Aphrodisiac twinkling uncleanness | 07/01/25 |
| emerald house-broken university philosopher-king | 07/13/25 |
| swollen son of senegal | 07/13/25 |
| floppy startling travel guidebook | 05/29/25 |
| irate henna nibblets | 05/29/25 |
| adventurous azure senate | 06/03/25 |
| Aphrodisiac twinkling uncleanness | 07/02/25 |
| Contagious hominid | 12/18/25 |
| Swashbuckling juggernaut | 06/08/25 |
| Dashing Greedy Messiness | 07/01/25 |
| Outnumbered Charismatic Double Fault Base | 07/16/25 |
| Deranged Field | 11/11/25 |
| cruel-hearted maize trump supporter sanctuary | 11/24/25 |
| Deranged Field | 12/08/25 |
| Outnumbered Charismatic Double Fault Base | 12/18/25 |
| grizzly meetinghouse persian | 04/23/26 |
| grizzly meetinghouse persian | 04/23/26 |
Poast new message in this thread
Date: June 14th, 2013 10:27 AM Author: Stirring Milky Home Was this system as singularly shitty as it sounds, or have most societies historically been based on similar systems? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#23393887) |
Date: May 29th, 2025 4:29 AM Author: Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat just walk outside bro (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#48969812) |
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Date: May 29th, 2025 4:30 AM Author: Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat (and yes, OP's country has a third world gini coefficient) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#48969813) |
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Date: June 3rd, 2025 9:24 PM Author: Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#48985020) |
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Date: June 8th, 2025 5:55 PM Author: Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#48997575) |
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Date: July 1st, 2025 9:14 PM Author: Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49064860) |
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Date: July 3rd, 2025 8:14 PM Author: Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49070377) |
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Date: July 6th, 2025 8:32 PM Author: Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49077411) |
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Date: July 8th, 2025 10:20 PM Author: Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49084518) |
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Date: July 13th, 2025 6:52 PM Author: Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49098591) |
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Date: July 14th, 2025 5:12 PM Author: Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49101058) |
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Date: July 16th, 2025 3:43 AM Author: Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49105012) |
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Date: July 20th, 2025 8:00 PM Author: Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49117359) |
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Date: July 24th, 2025 5:37 PM Author: Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49128622) |
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Date: July 29th, 2025 11:50 PM Author: Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49141968) |
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Date: July 30th, 2025 6:59 PM Author: Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49143857) |
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Date: August 4th, 2025 6:52 PM Author: Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49156580) |
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Date: August 10th, 2025 8:35 PM Author: Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49172980) |
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Date: November 11th, 2025 8:33 PM Author: Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49421817) |
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Date: November 11th, 2025 8:48 PM Author: Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49421862) |
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Date: November 11th, 2025 8:57 PM Author: Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49421881) |
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Date: November 11th, 2025 11:28 PM Author: Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49422254) |
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Date: November 12th, 2025 7:15 PM Author: Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49424474) |
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Date: November 12th, 2025 9:29 PM Author: Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49425035) |
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Date: November 13th, 2025 1:21 AM Author: Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49425543) |
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Date: November 13th, 2025 4:52 PM Author: Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49427654) |
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Date: November 16th, 2025 8:27 PM Author: Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49436681) |
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Date: November 16th, 2025 9:03 PM Author: Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49436785) |
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Date: November 17th, 2025 6:11 PM Author: Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49439167) |
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Date: November 18th, 2025 7:01 PM Author: Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49441985) |
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Date: November 23rd, 2025 8:51 PM Author: Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49454945) |
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Date: November 24th, 2025 12:36 AM Author: Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49455274) |
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Date: November 24th, 2025 6:55 PM Author: Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49457596) |
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Date: November 24th, 2025 9:29 PM Author: Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49458108) |
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Date: November 26th, 2025 12:15 AM Author: Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49461550) |
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Date: November 26th, 2025 4:27 PM Author: Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49463581) |
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Date: November 26th, 2025 10:41 PM Author: Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49464738) |
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Date: November 27th, 2025 5:48 PM Author: Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49466319) |
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Date: November 28th, 2025 12:55 AM Author: Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49467160) |
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Date: December 2nd, 2025 6:52 PM Author: Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49478445) |
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Date: December 4th, 2025 5:54 PM Author: Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49484240) |
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Date: December 4th, 2025 9:25 PM Author: Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49484832) |
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Date: December 7th, 2025 7:20 PM Author: Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49492316) |
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Date: December 8th, 2025 12:55 AM Author: Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49493000) |
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Date: December 8th, 2025 8:23 PM Author: Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49495268) |
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Date: December 9th, 2025 3:57 PM Author: Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49497250) |
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Date: December 10th, 2025 9:55 PM Author: Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49500993) |
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Date: December 16th, 2025 9:07 PM Author: Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49515504) |
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Date: December 18th, 2025 1:04 AM Author: Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49518561) |
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Date: December 21st, 2025 8:59 PM Author: Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49529071) |
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Date: December 22nd, 2025 8:47 PM Author: Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49532458) |
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Date: December 24th, 2025 12:00 AM Author: Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49536032) |
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Date: December 28th, 2025 6:54 PM Author: Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49545634) |
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Date: December 28th, 2025 7:05 PM Author: Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49545665) |
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Date: December 29th, 2025 9:19 PM Author: Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49548639) |
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Date: January 4th, 2026 8:56 PM Author: Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49562700) |
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Date: January 6th, 2026 7:39 PM Author: Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49567730) |
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Date: January 12th, 2026 6:44 PM Author: Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49584404) |
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Date: January 14th, 2026 6:47 PM Author: Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49589879) |
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Date: January 20th, 2026 7:47 PM Author: Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49604959) |
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Date: April 23rd, 2026 7:08 PM Author: Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49838395) |
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Date: April 23rd, 2026 7:38 PM Author: Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49838453) |
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Date: May 13th, 2026 7:20 PM Author: Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49884309) |
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Date: May 19th, 2026 8:56 PM Author: Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49890852) |
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Date: May 21st, 2026 5:25 PM Author: Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49893306) |
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Date: May 25th, 2026 6:16 PM Author: Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49900593) |
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Date: May 26th, 2026 8:51 PM Author: Thirsty idiotic private investor kitty cat (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49903004) |
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Date: May 28th, 2026 5:55 PM Author: nyuug (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49905466) |
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Date: June 3rd, 2026 5:16 PM Author: nyuug (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49913565) |
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Date: May 29th, 2025 5:47 AM Author: Nubile alpha temple Have most large-scale agricultural civilizations over the last 5k years relegated the vast majority of their agricultural labor force /population to a state of semi-slavery enforced by an exploitative elite with a monopoly on violence? yes |
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Date: May 29th, 2025 5:51 AM Author: Exhilarant party of the first part Yes, it was terrible, it was the first form of mass-egalitarianism. All the old Tribal Clans were abolished & people were turned into landless serfs, the only exceptions were the Elite Warlord Clans that got to rule as Lords/Kings. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#48969860) |
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Date: May 29th, 2025 5:55 AM Author: Nubile alpha temple (ignores every other form of mass-agriculture that preceded it) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#48969863) |
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Date: May 29th, 2025 7:47 AM Author: Exhilarant party of the first part They were better because you had different tribal clans owning different regions, serfdom was a form of quasi-slavery, only the Kings/Lords had property rights. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#48969954) |
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Date: May 29th, 2025 1:37 PM Author: Nubile alpha temple read the history of the early hydrological civilizations of egypt, mesopotamia, the indus and the yellow river valleys (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#48971066) |
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Date: July 1st, 2025 11:58 PM Author: Aphrodisiac twinkling uncleanness Better to be a serf under a Warrior Clique (blessed by the Priestly Clique) than a humiliated cog of the Merchant Clique imho (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49065184) |
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Date: July 13th, 2025 6:53 PM Author: emerald house-broken university philosopher-king (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49098592) |
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Date: July 13th, 2025 7:03 PM Author: swollen son of senegal (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49098608) |
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Date: May 29th, 2025 8:52 AM Author: floppy startling travel guidebook what part of: the peasants are revolting, don't u get? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#48970037) |
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Date: May 29th, 2025 8:54 AM Author: irate henna nibblets cq (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#48970041) |
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Date: June 3rd, 2025 9:32 PM Author: adventurous azure senate I'd say that like slavery it probably depends on a lot on just where you are, so not singularly shitty just situation dependent (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#48985033) |
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Date: July 2nd, 2025 12:06 AM Author: Aphrodisiac twinkling uncleanness teen black death survivors were the original Boomers (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49065206) |
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Date: December 18th, 2025 4:10 AM Author: Contagious hominid (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49518664) |
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Date: June 8th, 2025 6:07 PM Author: Swashbuckling juggernaut i wish i could have sworn fealty to an employer like a serf to a feudal lord when i was younger. would have saved me a lot of pain cycling through shitty short-term jobs. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#48997602) |
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Date: July 1st, 2025 10:15 PM Author: Dashing Greedy Messiness Serfs had tons of time off & feast days. It wasn't as bad as most people think. They didn't have running water or electricity, but neither did the rulers. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49065026) |
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Date: July 16th, 2025 4:01 AM Author: Outnumbered Charismatic Double Fault Base really depended on the country, the region, and the lord removing technology from the equation it could range from far more harmonious than what we have today to utterly hellish. the general trend towards centralization of power from the early middle ages and on and the rise of the professional state theoretically ensures a general better standard of living for a subject on average, or at the very least a set "floor" for QoL, but ends up removing a lot to do with the nuances of power relations and enduring senses of community in the process |
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Date: November 11th, 2025 8:49 PM Author: Deranged Field It worked out really well for most folks. Asia had similar systems in place for thousands of years and they were stable societies (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49421865) |
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Date: November 24th, 2025 10:06 PM Author: cruel-hearted maize trump supporter sanctuary it was a nanny state. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49458174) |
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Date: December 8th, 2025 8:26 PM Author: Deranged Field Most societies were nomadic. Home sapiens only became a settled species during the most recent 5% of our time on earth. There's absolutely nothing normal (or even good) about anything we do today, unless your goal is simply to put more people on the earth's surface (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49495273) |
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Date: December 18th, 2025 1:07 AM Author: Outnumbered Charismatic Double Fault Base actual feudalism was probably fine and shitty in parts foursquare feudalism otoh is a lot of fun and harmless if it's not infested with faggots |
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Date: April 23rd, 2026 7:17 PM Author: grizzly meetinghouse persian 13th century English peasant: 1620 chill working hours per year with your bros, downtime all winter, zero "thank" emails
you: hiting 1620 billables in July while on your "working vacation" at the beach with your kids
https://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/users/rauch/worktime/hours_workweek.html |
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Date: April 23rd, 2026 7:17 PM Author: grizzly meetinghouse persian "Before capitalism, most people did not work very long hours at all. The tempo of life was slow, even leisurely; the pace of work relaxed. Our ancestors may not have been rich, but they had an abundance of leisure. When capitalism raised their incomes, it also took away their time." (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2281707&forum_id=2#49838410) |