The most prestigious law school admissions discussion board in the world.
|
 |
 
|
It's almost impossible to learn German
Poast new message in this thread
Date: January 26th, 2018 10:28 AM Author: exhilarant azn (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3871700&forum_id=2#35243024) |
Date: January 26th, 2018 10:28 AM Author: vivacious harsh ticket booth I took reading German in grad school and it's not very hard. But speaking? Gadzooks. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3871700&forum_id=2#35243028) |
 |
Date: January 26th, 2018 10:30 AM Author: Fear-inspiring bronze psychic crackhouse I did as well -- for Graduate Reading Knowledge. I liked it, very structured and the rules were easier to follow than Spanish, with all the exceptions etc. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3871700&forum_id=2#35243047) |
|
Date: January 26th, 2018 10:31 AM Author: Black french chef stead same. learning the grammar and whatever special vocabulary there is for a couple of academic fields is pretty easy. no idea how to learn to produce it with any speed. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3871700&forum_id=2#35243051) |
|
Date: January 26th, 2018 10:29 AM Author: Electric disrespectful field crotch Speaking it is hard. Try spelling the words - jfc. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3871700&forum_id=2#35243033) |
|
Date: January 26th, 2018 10:29 AM Author: ungodly home Verkampfterbungenlingtaufhausen (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3871700&forum_id=2#35243038) |
|
Date: January 26th, 2018 11:06 AM Author: Cream shrine cumskin (anti-semite) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3871700&forum_id=2#35243407) |
|
Date: January 26th, 2018 10:32 AM Author: Khaki public bath nibblets Spelling isn't hard. It's a pretty phonetic language. Even the grammar isn't hard, it's pretty mathematical (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3871700&forum_id=2#35243058) |
|
Date: January 26th, 2018 10:33 AM Author: Wonderful native (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3871700&forum_id=2#35243068) |
|
Date: January 26th, 2018 10:55 AM Author: Coiffed church The grammar is hard (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3871700&forum_id=2#35243282) |
|
Date: January 26th, 2018 11:05 AM Author: Khaki public bath nibblets The grammar rules are complicated but can be mastered and memorized like a multiplication table (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3871700&forum_id=2#35243398) |
|
Date: January 26th, 2018 2:19 PM Author: Lake boyish site true but ljl at trying to do table lookups in real time (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3871700&forum_id=2#35245598) |
|
Date: July 6th, 2025 5:44 PM Author: Laughsome house-broken boistinker rigor They write super long sentences that form an entire paragraph, forcing you to go back and reverse engineer the whole thing to understand it. A lot of English people do this too. It's one reason medieval scholars forced Germans to write in Latin. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3871700&forum_id=2#49076945) |
|
Date: January 26th, 2018 10:29 AM Author: ungodly home All the "cases" and whatnot can be confusing, but it's easier than French. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3871700&forum_id=2#35243034) |
|
Date: January 26th, 2018 10:33 AM Author: chrome water buffalo I didn't think french was bad at all. What was harder about french? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3871700&forum_id=2#35243069) |
|
Date: January 26th, 2018 10:34 AM Author: ungodly home Everything. Spelling, pronunciation etc. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3871700&forum_id=2#35243080) |
|
Date: January 26th, 2018 2:45 PM Author: Citrine half-breed whorehouse Regular-speed spoken casual french is hard as fuck to understand without years of tuning your ear due to the way words are blended together. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3871700&forum_id=2#35245895) |
|
Date: July 6th, 2025 5:41 PM Author: Irradiated Charcoal Sandwich Reading Party written French is a pleasure spoken French is an incomprehensible nightmare imo |
|
Date: January 26th, 2018 10:34 AM Author: Black french chef stead do you just mean phonetically? french grammar is ljl easy (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3871700&forum_id=2#35243076) |
|
Date: January 26th, 2018 10:36 AM Author: chrome water buffalo its like learning spanish, but with fucked up spelling/pronunciation (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3871700&forum_id=2#35243098) |
|
Date: January 26th, 2018 10:44 AM Author: blue orchestra pit French is easy as fuck. Grammar rules, etc make more sense than english (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3871700&forum_id=2#35243165) |
|
Date: January 26th, 2018 10:46 AM Author: green electric furnace (trilingual guy bagging groceries) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3871700&forum_id=2#35243195) |
|
Date: January 26th, 2018 10:49 AM Author: out-of-control dopamine area (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3871700&forum_id=2#35243214) |
|
Date: January 26th, 2018 10:50 AM Author: out-of-control dopamine area (Trilingual guy bagging groceries incapable of bagging cunnilingus) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3871700&forum_id=2#35243223) |
|
Date: January 26th, 2018 10:54 AM Author: Coiffed church He's not a bagger (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3871700&forum_id=2#35243274) |
|
Date: January 26th, 2018 11:04 AM Author: Khaki public bath nibblets Lol he's the cart gatherer? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3871700&forum_id=2#35243389) |
|
Date: January 26th, 2018 11:50 AM Author: vigorous violent house patrolman No, but the retarded kid he molests is. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3871700&forum_id=2#35243892) |
|
Date: January 26th, 2018 11:56 AM Author: ungodly home ? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3871700&forum_id=2#35243970) |
|
Date: January 26th, 2018 2:13 PM Author: Free-loading heaven (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3871700&forum_id=2#35245524) |
|
Date: January 26th, 2018 10:32 AM Author: Wonderful native edit (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3871700&forum_id=2#35243064) |
|
Date: January 26th, 2018 10:35 AM Author: Insane Dilemma Personal Credit Line I learned German as a hobby. Its not that hard. Can't speak it well because I have no one to speak it with. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3871700&forum_id=2#35243082) |
|
Date: January 26th, 2018 10:36 AM Author: thriller black woman chad What little German I've studied struck me as incredibly easy - easier than any other language I've tried to learn. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3871700&forum_id=2#35243103) |
|
Date: January 26th, 2018 10:41 AM Author: Khaki public bath nibblets That's ridiculous. I'm sure you've looked into French and Italian.
I think the hardest thing about German is the prepositions. Here the rules don't really make any fucking sense, especially in combination with the trennbar verbs. You end up repeating prepositions twice in a sentence and it feels and looks ridiculous |
|
Date: January 26th, 2018 10:44 AM Author: thriller black woman chad Italian is easy; French is fairly difficult. I speak native Spanish, a smidge of Arabic, low-intermediate French, and high-intermediate/low advanced Italian. Introductory German was easier to me than any of these. I'll grant that the pronunciation is cumbersome, but French is arguably worse. I took a few years of French, and still don't understand a fucking word of it. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3871700&forum_id=2#35243168) |
|
Date: January 26th, 2018 10:46 AM Author: Black french chef stead julia effortlessly identifying massive german compound verbs and pleasurably navigating 6 line sentences with fucked up werden constructions, blown the fuck out by "difficult" french. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3871700&forum_id=2#35243201) |
|
Date: January 26th, 2018 10:48 AM Author: thriller black woman chad I don't know what the fuck it is about French, but I've given up on that language. I'd rather dedicate my efforts where I see reasonable results - i.e.- picking up a little more Arabic and becoming more advanced in Italian. I may try Japanese in a few years. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3871700&forum_id=2#35243209) |
|
Date: January 26th, 2018 10:52 AM Author: ruby casino I don't understand why you find French so hard if you know Italian. French people visiting Italy will order in French at restaurants and be understood.
My French is pretty good, and I was able to get to a lower intermediate level in Italian in less than 2 wks of intense study. They'are lexicons have a 90% concordance rate. |
|
Date: January 26th, 2018 10:54 AM Author: Motley institution Julia picking up languages and adding them to her trophy case. Why? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3871700&forum_id=2#35243271) |
|
Date: January 26th, 2018 11:12 AM Author: thriller black woman chad Arabic: I'm half Arab and have family in the Middle East French: Learning a language was a mandatory elective in MS/HS Italian: Basically a free language when you speak Spanish, and I enjoy Italian culture & visiting Japanese: Seems a fun challenge |
|
Date: January 26th, 2018 10:47 AM Author: sick weed whacker I'm re-learning/brushing up and I 100% agree. The prepositions are really hard.
The other hard part is of course all the endings for the genders and cases. No individual one is hard obviously, but you really have to know your genders and cases for every noun, and you have to apply it quickly especially when speaking. |
|
Date: January 26th, 2018 10:51 AM Author: Insane Dilemma Personal Credit Line The prepositions are difficult because many cognate with English prepositions but used differently. Also, verbs with prepositions have altered meanings that can't be guessed from the preposition+verb. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3871700&forum_id=2#35243239) |
|
Date: January 26th, 2018 10:55 AM Author: sick weed whacker yep (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3871700&forum_id=2#35243285) |
|
Date: January 26th, 2018 10:53 AM Author: Black french chef stead 3 genders in german v. 2 in french, and a more developed case system (although not at god awful as russian, from what people tell me). i don't get this argument at all. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3871700&forum_id=2#35243261) |
|
Date: January 26th, 2018 10:56 AM Author: sick weed whacker it's really almost 4 because the plural is kind of a gender as well in certain cases, particularly the dative (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3871700&forum_id=2#35243298) |
|
Date: January 26th, 2018 11:10 AM Author: Insane Dilemma Personal Credit Line Which is still easier than Ukrainian (and I assume Russian is pretty similar) where the genders have their own plural forms (although masculine and neuter plural are very similar). So the German gender x case grid is 4x4=16 things to learn versus Ukrainian (3x2)x7 = 42 things to learn, and that's not even considering that there are multiple forms of nominative declensions.... (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3871700&forum_id=2#35243436) |
|
Date: January 26th, 2018 11:12 AM Author: sick weed whacker not saying German is the hardest language out there. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3871700&forum_id=2#35243455) |
|
Date: January 26th, 2018 11:20 AM Author: Black french chef stead this makes it a lot easier, actually. in latin all the plurals are different, for instance, although there's sometimes a gendered/neuter split. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3871700&forum_id=2#35243544) |
|
Date: January 26th, 2018 11:04 AM Author: Khaki public bath nibblets There's other shit that gets more advanced that no one bothers to tell you about early on, with weak and strong verbs and N-Nomen (why do you say Mein Name ist, but then you say ich habe keinen Namen) and some verbs must be separated and some can't, even when the preposition part is the same.
English is very nuanced with prepositions as well, so that part is hard to understand for learners, but English is goddamn stupidly easy to get started and make yourself understood. |
|
Date: January 26th, 2018 11:12 AM Author: sick weed whacker i agree, n-declension is annoying.
knowing when certain verbs are reflexive also drives me crazy. as does using sein for certain verbs in the perfekt.
i honestly wish i could just live over there for 6 months to a year. i'd come back fluent. |
|
Date: January 26th, 2018 11:16 AM Author: Insane Dilemma Personal Credit Line N-nomen is a minor, minor grammatical point that hardly matters is everyday German. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3871700&forum_id=2#35243486) |
|
Date: January 26th, 2018 11:25 AM Author: Khaki public bath nibblets The point is that there is a declination of nouns in the German language. And like the gender of a noun, there's basically no way to ascertain what applies. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3871700&forum_id=2#35243581) |
|
Date: January 26th, 2018 11:31 AM Author: Insane Dilemma Personal Credit Line No. In German there are tiny vestigial traces of nominal declension that are practically irrelevant for communication. Its not like Latin or Russian where not only are nouns fully declined, but each gender has multiple different declension schemes. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3871700&forum_id=2#35243643) |
|
Date: January 26th, 2018 11:49 AM Author: Khaki public bath nibblets How is this responsive? These things exist, and I'm not sure how the fact that they exist more frequently in other languages means they must not be learned. Now please, remove your quivering boistinker from my line of sight. I have no interest in pleasuring you |
|
Date: January 26th, 2018 12:21 PM Author: Insane Dilemma Personal Credit Line English possessive formation ('s) is technically nominal inflection for the genitive case, but no one says English is nominally inflected, and neither is German in any meaningful way, faggit. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3871700&forum_id=2#35244267) |
|
Date: June 9th, 2021 8:53 PM Author: Hairraiser disgusting ceo Very scholarly sub thread (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3871700&forum_id=2#42601416) |
|
Date: January 26th, 2018 10:55 AM Author: flesh indirect expression How do you feel about RSF having confirmed sock puppets that outed people and mocked all Asians as clitdicks? Do you still feel RSF is super chill? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3871700&forum_id=2#35243283) |
|
Date: January 26th, 2018 2:46 PM Author: Citrine half-breed whorehouse LOL at German being "incredibly easy." (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3871700&forum_id=2#35245918) |
|
Date: July 6th, 2025 5:48 PM Author: Laughsome house-broken boistinker rigor Some languages start out easy and then you fall off a cliff when you get to the grammar shit, other languages are the reverse. I'm told Tagalog has a steep initial learning curve, even though it seems like it would be easy to get started, whereas German starts off easy and then leads you in circles. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3871700&forum_id=2#49076953) |
|
Date: July 6th, 2025 5:56 PM Author: Big navy turdskin its the opposite. German starts off hard with having to know the artikeln and proper declension in akkusativ, dativ, genetiv, Konjunktive I & II, regelmassig u. unregelmassig verben, and so forth, but gets easier once you have those fundamentals down. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3871700&forum_id=2#49076968) |
|
Date: January 26th, 2018 10:43 AM Author: blue orchestra pit I took German 1 my senior year of high school. It was pretty hard. Spelling all the crap correctly is a pain (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3871700&forum_id=2#35243158) |
|
Date: January 26th, 2018 10:45 AM Author: Insane Dilemma Personal Credit Line No, its not. The orthography is highly regular and all the vowels are quite distinct (well except for u and u-umlaut) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3871700&forum_id=2#35243181) |
|
Date: January 26th, 2018 11:07 AM Author: blue orchestra pit I thought it was a pain in the ass. I took French for 3 years with the same teacher and aced it with no effort which is why I took German. Romance languages make more sense imo (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3871700&forum_id=2#35243414) |
|
Date: January 26th, 2018 10:56 AM Author: Spruce multi-colored temple it's much easier than french or english, both of which i had to learn.
the reason is because both german pronouciation and german grammar follow more regular rules. |
|
Date: January 26th, 2018 11:19 AM Author: Turquoise Old Irish Cottage Gas Station Bullshit on French. French is much easier. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3871700&forum_id=2#35243519) |
|
Date: January 26th, 2018 11:22 AM Author: Insane Dilemma Personal Credit Line Its depends on what your native language is. The weird word order in German which trips up English speakers may not be as big a deal for a non-English speakers. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3871700&forum_id=2#35243549) |
|
Date: January 26th, 2018 11:24 AM Author: Turquoise Old Irish Cottage Gas Station "La" and "le" is ways easier than die, das, der with all the tenses.
E.g.
Die Heimat is schoen. Ich wohne in der Heimat.
All kinds of that stuff in German. It's tough. |
|
Date: January 26th, 2018 11:26 AM Author: Insane Dilemma Personal Credit Line Again, if your native language is inflectional learning a 4x4 grid of inflections is not a big deal. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3871700&forum_id=2#35243589) |
|
Date: January 26th, 2018 11:59 AM Author: thirsty hissy fit corn cake now THIS is a low-iq thread if ever I've seen one (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3871700&forum_id=2#35244009) |
|
Date: January 26th, 2018 12:01 PM Author: ruby casino cr, especially after I've freely shared with the bort the 5 SECRETS of SUCCESSFUL language learners that will surprise you. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3871700&forum_id=2#35244035) |
|
Date: January 26th, 2018 12:03 PM Author: thirsty hissy fit corn cake don't recall these, but the trick is immersion. Took me 6 months to learn (up to a usable level) what's considered the hardest language using the Latin alphabet without any formal training, just full immersion. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3871700&forum_id=2#35244066) |
|
Date: January 26th, 2018 12:23 PM Author: Wonderful native which one? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3871700&forum_id=2#35244279) |
|
Date: January 26th, 2018 12:25 PM Author: thirsty hissy fit corn cake Finngolian. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3871700&forum_id=2#35244299) |
|
Date: January 26th, 2018 12:04 PM Author: Haunting Ladyboy Philosopher-king (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3871700&forum_id=2#35244082) |
|
Date: January 26th, 2018 12:08 PM Author: Haunting Ladyboy Philosopher-king I rika Germoney, but a sperring Germoney is a harda. Guta Taga! (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3871700&forum_id=2#35244120) |
|
Date: January 26th, 2018 12:22 PM Author: vigorous violent house patrolman (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3871700&forum_id=2#35244270) |
|
Date: January 26th, 2018 12:24 PM Author: spectacular crimson corner OP must be a gook.
German should be easy to pick up if you're a native English speaker. After Frisian and Dutch/Afrikaans, it's the closest language to English.
I was able to pick up basic German very quickly by just memorizing the most common 100 words and putting it to use with english grammer and from there learning the grammer from actual use. |
|
Date: January 26th, 2018 12:26 PM Author: Black french chef stead you calling mark twain a gook? https://www.cs.utah.edu/~gback/awfgrmlg.html |
|
Date: January 26th, 2018 2:16 PM Author: Iridescent Disturbing Indian Lodge Devestating (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3871700&forum_id=2#35245564) |
|
Date: January 26th, 2018 2:24 PM Author: sick weed whacker "I heard a Californian student in Heidelberg say, in one of his calmest moods, that he would rather decline two drinks than one German adjective."
lol |
|
Date: July 6th, 2025 5:33 PM Author: Big navy turdskin lol (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3871700&forum_id=2#49076916) |
|
Date: January 26th, 2018 2:49 PM Author: Citrine half-breed whorehouse this was 180 (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3871700&forum_id=2#35245946) |
|
Date: January 26th, 2018 3:17 PM Author: Black french chef stead The Germans have another kind of parenthesis, which they make by splitting a verb in two and putting half of it at the beginning of an exciting chapter and the other half at the end of it. Can any one conceive of anything more confusing than that? These things are called "separable verbs." The German grammar is blistered all over with separable verbs; and the wider the two portions of one of them are spread apart, the better the author of the crime is pleased with his performance. A favorite one is reiste ab -- which means departed. Here is an example which I culled from a novel and reduced to English: "The trunks being now ready, he DE- after kissing his mother and sisters, and once more pressing to his bosom his adored Gretchen, who, dressed in simple white muslin, with a single tuberose in the ample folds of her rich brown hair, had tottered feebly down the stairs, still pale from the terror and excitement of the past evening, but longing to lay her poor aching head yet once again upon the breast of him whom she loved more dearly than life itself, PARTED." |
|
Date: June 9th, 2021 9:07 PM Author: Seedy garrison preventive strike (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3871700&forum_id=2#42601487) |
|
Date: July 6th, 2025 5:33 PM Author: Big navy turdskin LMAO (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3871700&forum_id=2#49076914) |
|
Date: July 7th, 2025 2:02 AM Author: Irradiated Charcoal Sandwich Reading Party nothing wrong with this tbqh it's poetic |
|
Date: July 7th, 2025 2:04 AM Author: Laughsome house-broken boistinker rigor English people still write convoluted bullshit like this. It's not strictly a "german" thing. I read some study released by the UK government, and it read exactly like a translation of something written in German. You wouldn't last a day in the US Govt if you wrote like that. It made me realize I'd picked up all my bad writing habits from English authors. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3871700&forum_id=2#49078054) |
|
Date: July 7th, 2025 2:06 AM Author: odious balding trailer park new version This is basically an XO-ism (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3871700&forum_id=2#49078056) |
|
Date: January 26th, 2018 2:14 PM Author: Stimulating Pit Pocket Flask (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3871700&forum_id=2#35245540) |
|
Date: January 26th, 2018 3:16 PM Author: Coral pea-brained windowlicker locale in casual conversation you can just say "duh" instead of the proper der/das/den whatever and people will get it. once you get over the hump of feeling like a dumbass, speaking it conversationally is fun (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3871700&forum_id=2#35246158) |
|
Date: July 6th, 2025 5:54 PM Author: Laughsome house-broken boistinker rigor No one thought to write anything good or important in German until the late 19th century. There were no epic works of German literature or philosophy written in German until the late 19th century. It was always considered a total shit language even by native speakers, not appropriate for writing books on academic topics. Even Nietzsche trashed it while writing in German. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3871700&forum_id=2#49076961) |
|
Date: July 7th, 2025 2:04 AM Author: odious balding trailer park new version Lmfao German is one of the easiest languages to learn. It's almost as easy as any of the romance languages. Extremely consistent rules and syntax, and spelling once you understand the system.
Vastly easier than any of the Asian languages or anything in Cyrillic |
|
Date: July 7th, 2025 2:08 AM Author: Laughsome house-broken boistinker rigor Outed as a loser who never studied Japanese for one minute. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3871700&forum_id=2#49078057) |
|
Date: July 7th, 2025 2:20 AM Author: grizzly diverse prole (lex tp) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3871700&forum_id=2#49078076) |
|
Date: September 8th, 2025 3:26 PM Author: animeboi (.) . (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3871700&forum_id=2#49245721) |