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Too old for LS?
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Date: March 9th, 2010 2:28 AM Author: Red public bath rigor Subject: Too old for law school? I'm currently considering going into law school, but am wondering if my age would be a disadvantage down the road.
Here's my situation:
I'm currently 28. I graduated in 2005 with a 3.8 in a language degree (Japanese) from a decent state school. I've been working in Japan for the past 3 years (current job is as an in-house patent translator). My original plan was to return to the US and go for a PhD in linguistics, then go into academia. However, the state of the academic job market has made me pretty much ditch that idea. Now I'm pushing 30 with only a language bachelor's under my belt and a $36K/year job, cursing my decision not to have gone for a double major with something more practical (I didn't have much difficulty with my course work, so this would have been feasible), and trying to find a more viable career path before any more time goes by.
I'm seriously considering law school as law seems like a career that I would find interesting, and with my currrent work I'm already used to working with dry, longwinded documents all day long anyway. If I do go into law, I'd be aiming to go for biglaw, as just a few years would be enough to pay down any school debt, and I've worked 60 hour weeks in the past. If I found I enjoyed the work, I could stay on and continue making a biglaw salary (assuming the economy doesn't tank further); if not, I could make quite a comfortable, not to mention much more flexible, living for myself as a freelance translator.
My concern is this: assuming I start applying to schools from this year and get in somewhere, I'll start school in fall 2011, by which point I'll have just turned thirty. After three years in law school I'll be 33. Will my age at that point be a handicap? I know there'll be tons of fresh JDs nearly a decade younger than me, while meanwhile all my age peers will have been in their careers for years. Do firms factor age into their hiring choices? Do they prefer younger associates because they're presumably more pliable/willing to work ridiculous hours?
I have no outstanding school debt as I got a free ride for my UG, am not married, and am willing to relocate just about anywhere, though NY would be my ideal.
Would law school be potentially worth it, or should I just go for an MBA or some sort of technical degree? Would it only be worth it if I got into HYS or a T14 or something? |
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Date: March 9th, 2010 2:31 AM Author: diverse becky patrolman No, not at all. If it's what you really want to do, do it. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1245487&forum_id=2#14339665) |
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Date: March 9th, 2010 2:39 AM Author: Stubborn Parlor Don't give him bad advice to cheer yourself out of your depression. Law has sucked for you, and probably would for him to. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1245487&forum_id=2#14339719) |
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Date: March 9th, 2010 3:05 AM Author: cobalt vengeful church Only stupid Canadians say dumb shit like this.
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Date: March 9th, 2010 2:39 AM Author: Stubborn Parlor In the amount of time a PhD would have taken you you could graduate as an MD. Admittedly, you would still have a residency ahead of you, but that would be similar in crappiness to being a postdoc or an adjunct. Law kinda sucks, especially since you seem to want job security. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1245487&forum_id=2#14339716) |
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Date: March 9th, 2010 2:50 AM Author: Scarlet international law enforcement agency party of the first part im 29 bitch. go somewhere on a full ride. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1245487&forum_id=2#14339787) |
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Date: March 9th, 2010 3:57 AM Author: Red public bath rigor Thanks to everyone who answered; this has been very informative. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1245487&forum_id=2#14340107) |
Date: March 9th, 2010 2:32 AM Author: crystalline piazza Japan has such TTT salaries... but law = a more TTT salary (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1245487&forum_id=2#14339673) |
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Date: March 9th, 2010 2:34 AM Author: Heady primrose ape goddamn, why are you so old? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1245487&forum_id=2#14339682) |
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Date: March 9th, 2010 2:37 AM Author: Red public bath rigor Short version: took longer than I should have to graduate UG as I took a year off, then dicked around for a year or two after graduating. Basically, I was extremely unfocused for a lot of my youth, and just now getting bitch-slapped by the real world. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1245487&forum_id=2#14339704) |
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Date: March 9th, 2010 2:38 AM Author: Out-of-control Center People Who Are Hurt At least you get solid 9s because you are a gaijin and your nihongo chooooooooo kawaiiiiiiiiii desu. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1245487&forum_id=2#14339711) |
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Date: March 9th, 2010 2:38 AM Author: Heady primrose ape have taken an LSAT? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1245487&forum_id=2#14339715) |
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Date: March 9th, 2010 2:43 AM Author: Red public bath rigor Not yet; I'm planning on taking it here later this year. I don't know if it means jack shit, but I got 1550 back on the SAT way back when, so I feel pretty comfortable with taking standardized tests. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1245487&forum_id=2#14339753) |
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Date: March 9th, 2010 3:10 AM Author: glittery corn cake flayummmmmmm (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1245487&forum_id=2#14339911) |
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Date: March 9th, 2010 2:35 AM Author: Out-of-control Center People Who Are Hurt Why aren't you an ALT? You would be making 36k and have a much nicer living situation. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1245487&forum_id=2#14339691) |
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Date: March 9th, 2010 2:42 AM Author: Red public bath rigor I actually just finished JET, though as a CIR, so that's no longer an option. My situation now is actually a lot better than before in terms of quality of life (Japan anywhere outside of Tokyo is an insular backwater hellhole). Besides, teaching English in this country sounds like my own personal version of hell - way, WAY too boring and unsatisfying. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1245487&forum_id=2#14339736) |
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Date: March 9th, 2010 2:44 AM Author: Out-of-control Center People Who Are Hurt You weren't doing it right, good sir. Show up, teach, go home and mess around, show up again to say matane. Done by 4. Given the passivity of the culture, nobody ever confronts. QOL can be fine outside Tokyo simply by the fact that you are GAIJIN, loved no matter where you go. Just GAIJIN BASH your way through any misunderstandings. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1245487&forum_id=2#14339758) |
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Date: March 9th, 2010 2:49 AM Author: Red public bath rigor That's just it; I wasn't teaching. I was working a 9-6 office job in the prefectural capital (although for the vast majority of the time "work" consisted of browsing the internet while waiting for the occasional translation job). I basically got the suckier parts of the job with none of the ALT fringe benefits (summers off, fucking off back home after classes are done, etc.) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1245487&forum_id=2#14339783) |
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Date: March 9th, 2010 2:51 AM Author: Out-of-control Center People Who Are Hurt Post on ITIL? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1245487&forum_id=2#14339794) |
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Date: March 9th, 2010 2:56 AM Author: Red public bath rigor Actually, I'd like very much not to have to speak to any JETs again for a long time... (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1245487&forum_id=2#14339832) |
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Date: March 9th, 2010 3:00 AM Author: Out-of-control Center People Who Are Hurt hahahahahaha (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1245487&forum_id=2#14339852) |
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Date: March 9th, 2010 2:42 AM Author: obsidian address I don't think your age is a your biggest problem. Something to consider, unless you make top 30% of a T14 LS you'll probably be wishing you hadn't left your current salary... If you love the law, then who cares, go to law school. If you're going because you think you will have a better lifestyle then consider what your salary will most likely be after paying taxes in your new lawyer salary tax bracket, paying off your 100+K LS student loans for the rest of life and having the social life of social outcast who works 70 hour weeks. Seriously, no flame. I'm not trying to tell you not to go, just saying that you should consider all the pros and cons. |
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Date: March 9th, 2010 2:48 AM Author: Out-of-control Center People Who Are Hurt His situation is unique because he speaks Japanese, though. They like getting gaijin back there, and he can work at a firm, there. There is a preference for foreigners. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1245487&forum_id=2#14339779) |
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Date: March 9th, 2010 2:50 AM Author: obsidian address Everyone thinks their situation is different. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1245487&forum_id=2#14339791) |
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Date: March 9th, 2010 2:51 AM Author: crystalline piazza Ops situation is only unique insofar that he's from a country that will be defaulting on its national debt rather soon. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1245487&forum_id=2#14339800) |
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Date: March 9th, 2010 2:51 AM Author: Out-of-control Center People Who Are Hurt OK (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1245487&forum_id=2#14339801) |
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Date: March 9th, 2010 2:55 AM Author: Red public bath rigor That's another thing I've been wondering about as well. Does foreign language ability in general, or specifically Japanese ability, help at all in a legal career? I'd like to work it into any career I'd go into; that's why I'm considering studying something like M&A or securities law, as those areas seem to be where the demand for Japanese-speaking lawyers is greatest, at least to judge by the the various job-hunting sites I've used.
(I also speak German, though not as fluently, and am working on French, if that makes any difference. Could I, for instance, work in Europe as a US-trained lawyer?) |
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Date: March 9th, 2010 2:58 AM Author: crystalline piazza Sure... I mean last time I checked my Calendar it was June 19th 1971 anyway man... Japanese is highly marketable man... a lot of industry is developing there you know? and almost no native englishers live there so I mean, a law degree from WUSTL prob would land you at least $300k
I know WUSTL is kinda new and all, but it's really making steam and shit in the world of legal careers ya know? they have a great international program too |
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Date: March 9th, 2010 3:06 AM Author: Red public bath rigor I'll take it that the answer to my question is "no", then.
Believe me, I've definitely learned what Japanese ability can and can't do for you nowadays (not much by itself, unless you go into academics).
That's why I'm kicking myself now for not having studied something else, and trying to figure out some way to salvage the situation while I can.
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Date: March 9th, 2010 3:00 AM Author: Out-of-control Center People Who Are Hurt It is a plus if you want to work in Japan, yes, definitely. You will get a summer 1L gig at a firm there if you are fluent, even ITE. I got an offer even having very bad Japanese. You will not get something your 2L year there, though. You need to practice here, first, and you should try a firm that does a lot of work with Nihon or a firm that has an office there (Bakers comes to mind; MoFo, also, Linklaters, maybe Freshfields, etc.). Eventually, you can work at an American firm, there, in their Tokyo office, (but, like I said, you need to do stateside first). I have also heard of people going right to a Japanese firm after working here first.
Your Japanese has to be superb. You need to be bilingual and be able to explain difficult legal concepts to Japanese clients, if you intend to live there long-term. |
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Date: March 9th, 2010 3:02 AM Author: obsidian address Well, considering highly trained lawyers still find it challenging to make their legal arguments in court or in motions, I'll leave it up to you to answer your own question as to whether you could (or should) go up against native speaking euro-attorneys. Again, I'm not trying to discourage you - you should follow your passion, but from I've seen, speaking a different language in the law isn't all that helpful unless you're doing immigration law or PI cases in LA. |
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Date: March 9th, 2010 3:04 AM Author: crystalline piazza Not only is it not helpful, the Japanese are hands down the most bilingual country on the planet
But w/e I'm sure he'll be fine graduating from UCLA or somethin man
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Date: March 9th, 2010 3:04 AM Author: emerald wrinkle home obviously you know more than the guy who's actually in law school and has experience with the japanese legal market (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1245487&forum_id=2#14339871) |
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Date: March 9th, 2010 3:06 AM Author: crystalline piazza And who is this person? the OP hasn't even started law school yet... however, yes I probably know more about the japanese legal market than the OP http://www.optiapartners.com/en/pdf/survey.pdf
to start. |
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Date: March 9th, 2010 3:08 AM Author: obsidian address LOL @ thinking guy in LS is any sort of expert on anything, especially the real world (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1245487&forum_id=2#14339900) |
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Date: March 9th, 2010 3:11 AM Author: crystalline piazza Totally tcr as well
The survey is pretty clear though, while the wages can be higher for foreigners (they are) even directly converting you're looking at like 100k/yr by age 40
Starting out you'll make 7myen/yr if you even get a gig at all.
You'll need at least 7 years of experience before they will even take you seriously enough to pay you $90kUSD/yr+
ITE I'd almost guarantee you have to be out of the T10... or hell T6 to even have a shot ...
and those 50+ year old wages won't last past 1 generation in Japan. |
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Date: March 9th, 2010 3:12 AM Author: Out-of-control Center People Who Are Hurt He should aim for an American firm that has an office there, not a domestic Japanese firm. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1245487&forum_id=2#14339923) |
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Date: March 9th, 2010 3:14 AM Author: crystalline piazza Hint... read the survey.
gaishikei wages can be upwards of 2 times as high (much like HK at first) but unlike HK, the wages do NOT increase anywhere near as fast as you'd predict
for the first 10 or so years you're pretty much fucked. |
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Date: March 9th, 2010 3:20 AM Author: obsidian address "for the first 10 or so years you're pretty much fucked" while the next 10+ years you spend wonder how your student loans are still not paid off in full despite making $1000/month payments for the past 20 years. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1245487&forum_id=2#14339973) |
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Date: March 9th, 2010 3:22 AM Author: crystalline piazza Precisely the point... the japanese tax system is also going to make the loan thing much much harder. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1245487&forum_id=2#14339991) |
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Date: March 9th, 2010 3:24 AM Author: obsidian address exactly (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1245487&forum_id=2#14340000) |
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Date: March 9th, 2010 3:27 AM Author: obsidian address OP - at the end of the day you're gonna do what you want. Follow your passion. But if you're looking to make $$, weigh all your other possible options carefully as well prior to getting yourself in something that will cost you a $100K..even with a full ride, law school is a poor option at best for those who are not in love with the law...But I digress. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1245487&forum_id=2#14340007) |
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Date: March 9th, 2010 3:47 AM Author: Red public bath rigor Thanks a lot; that's good food for thought. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1245487&forum_id=2#14340066) |
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Date: March 9th, 2010 3:15 AM Author: Red public bath rigor Realistically that's what I would hope to do. Working as a foreigner for a Japanese employer of any sort is a sucker's game, and I'm not in any hurry to repeat the experience. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1245487&forum_id=2#14339948) |
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Date: March 9th, 2010 3:21 AM Author: crystalline piazza Describe what you know about the long term stability of Japan's economy and the stability of BIGLAW's market share in the long term internationally. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1245487&forum_id=2#14339982) |
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Date: March 9th, 2010 3:32 AM Author: Red public bath rigor Regarding Japan's economy; between the aging population and declining birth rate they're definitely got some trouble in store, but they're still the second-largest economy in the world, and barring some cataclysmic natural disaster or attack by Godzilla it's not going to go poof any time soon. They do have China to worry about, though.
As for biglaw's long-term international market share, I haven't the first idea. That's one of the other things I want to look into more before making any final decisions. |
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Date: March 9th, 2010 3:35 AM Author: crystalline piazza http://pragcap.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/JapanDebtToGDP.jpg
Japan is an interesting little fish
As an economic experiment it has a lot to offer the careful observer. I'm personally a proponent of the idea that gov debt = instability in wages and lowering of GDP growth/yr nearly regardless of private debt... but Japan has, mostly through it's own devices, lowered its private debt in the last decade quite successfully while the gov has done nothing to control its ridiculous spending practices
Anywho |
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Date: March 9th, 2010 3:37 AM Author: Out-of-control Center People Who Are Hurt There is a large population of ojisans and obasans that would be willing to work, I'd wager. It is a shame how they get shown the door when they reach 65; they would keep working, otherwise. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1245487&forum_id=2#14340041) |
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Date: March 9th, 2010 3:06 AM Author: Out-of-control Center People Who Are Hurt Japan is not bilingual, buddy. Soooooooooo far from it. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1245487&forum_id=2#14339880) |
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Date: March 9th, 2010 3:08 AM Author: crystalline piazza As a nation it's hard to come up with a country that's people spoke as much of another language as people in Japan did.
Perhaps Iceland... maybe |
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Date: March 9th, 2010 3:09 AM Author: Out-of-control Center People Who Are Hurt Ever visit the Netherlands? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1245487&forum_id=2#14339903) |
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Date: March 9th, 2010 3:11 AM Author: crystalline piazza Not yet... I still have many places to visit in my life. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1245487&forum_id=2#14339915) |
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Date: March 9th, 2010 3:13 AM Author: Out-of-control Center People Who Are Hurt Well, that's a bilingual country. If you walk around Japan, speaking English, people won't understand. If you walk around the Netherlands, speaking English, everyone understands. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1245487&forum_id=2#14339932) |
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Date: March 9th, 2010 3:14 AM Author: crystalline piazza No offense broseph, but almost everyone in Japan spoke to me just fine with my 200 word japanese vocabulary and english. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1245487&forum_id=2#14339940) |
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Date: March 9th, 2010 3:13 AM Author: obsidian address irrelevant (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1245487&forum_id=2#14339929) |
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Date: March 9th, 2010 3:13 AM Author: emerald wrinkle home http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_English-speaking_population
lol |
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Date: March 9th, 2010 3:17 AM Author: Out-of-control Center People Who Are Hurt Sort that by % (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1245487&forum_id=2#14339960) |
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Date: March 9th, 2010 3:17 AM Author: crystalline piazza Man the way they organized that (by number and not percentage) is hilarious
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Date: March 9th, 2010 3:18 AM Author: emerald wrinkle home also hilarious: japan has a lower percentage than many countries, including turkey (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1245487&forum_id=2#14339968) |
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Date: March 9th, 2010 3:20 AM Author: crystalline piazza Yeah... I mean I can imagine Sanskrit originating languages having a huge difficulty learning English much like Asian countries do with the completely different grammar/spelling/word types etc.
It's obvious why Sweden is #1 if you know anything about Swedish (almost all of their words are the same as ours in origin) |
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Date: March 9th, 2010 3:21 AM Author: Out-of-control Center People Who Are Hurt I wonder what the heck the 58 people not speaking English on the Isle of Man are speaking (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1245487&forum_id=2#14339979) |
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Date: March 9th, 2010 3:23 AM Author: crystalline piazza lol no idea (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1245487&forum_id=2#14339993) |
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Date: March 9th, 2010 3:27 AM Author: Out-of-control Center People Who Are Hurt Manx (native name Gaelg or Gailck, pronounced [ɡilk] or [ɡilɡ][5]), also known as Manx Gaelic, is a Goidelic language spoken on the Isle of Man. The last native speaker, Ned Maddrell, died in 1974, but in recent years it has been the subject of language revival efforts, and it is now the medium of education at the Bunscoill Ghaelgagh [bʊn-skolʲ ɣɪlgax], a primary school for four- to eleven-year-olds in St John's.
THE MORE YOU KNOW!
Anyone up for Isle of Man BIGLAW |
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Date: March 9th, 2010 3:05 AM Author: Out-of-control Center People Who Are Hurt Some of the firms actively seek foreigners who are fluent. There are a lot fewer foreigners who speak Japanese and English fluently than people in top law schools with something like Spanish or other Romance language. If his skills are good, he has a decent shot of getting a gig there down the road. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1245487&forum_id=2#14339873) |
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Date: March 9th, 2010 3:07 AM Author: crystalline piazza Yeah... no doubt the market for Spanish/English multilingual people is a tiny fraction the size of a foreign trained Japanese/English attorney (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1245487&forum_id=2#14339886) |
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Date: March 9th, 2010 3:08 AM Author: Out-of-control Center People Who Are Hurt You are misreading what I am posting (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1245487&forum_id=2#14339899) |
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Date: March 9th, 2010 3:04 AM Author: emerald wrinkle home why not an mba man (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1245487&forum_id=2#14339868) |
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Date: March 9th, 2010 3:59 AM Author: Red public bath rigor That's another possible option, although according to some sources I've seen an MBA isn't necessarily a sure ticket to job security either... (to the extent that anything could be, of course) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=1245487&forum_id=2#14340114) |