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Harvard vs. Michigan Darrow
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Date: March 7th, 2005 1:40 PM Author: Flatulent Hideous Legal Warrant Corner This is killing me. free ride at michigan. or big h. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=145424&forum_id=2#2276186) |
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Date: March 7th, 2005 1:41 PM Author: Iridescent Supple Rigpig Regret you should ask H if they can help you make the decision easier with a little grant $$$. i know it has been said that H doesn't give money, but asking can't hurt. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=145424&forum_id=2#2276195) |
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Date: March 7th, 2005 1:59 PM Author: Flatulent Hideous Legal Warrant Corner Subject: how what is the proper etiquette for asking financial aid committees for a couple grand brake in tuition? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=145424&forum_id=2#2276344) |
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Date: March 7th, 2005 1:41 PM Author: exciting area really? id go free ride in an instant. the darrow is more prestigious than h. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=145424&forum_id=2#2276197) |
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Date: March 7th, 2005 1:47 PM Author: hairless son of senegal property i hope you go to michigan! :)
after many horror stories from my attorneys (regarding debt, but also regarding harvard), i'd take the darrow.
edit: also depends how much aid you get. if you'll end up with less than $90K debt from harvard it could be worth it. i'm paying for all of my school with loans so i was calculating that it would cost you around $150K. |
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Date: March 7th, 2005 1:55 PM Author: Nubile Magenta Plaza What kind of stories re: debt? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=145424&forum_id=2#2276309) |
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Date: March 7th, 2005 2:41 PM Author: hairless son of senegal property i know a guy who chose H over a full-ride at NYU and wishes he had taken NYU. one of my attorneys went to boalt back when it was cheap and one went to columbia, guess which one is buying a house? i'm realizing that even small amounts of additional debt drastically change your lifestyle.
for example, most people on this board are scoffing at $15-20K over three year scholarships. that is most of your first-year christmas bonus at a big law firm. maybe it is worth it to some people to put that toward their debt, but i'd rather buy a car, put it toward a downpayment on a house, etc, if my choice is between two similar schools.
edit: assuming you think nu and duke are equal of course. ;) |
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Date: March 9th, 2005 8:08 AM Author: citrine floppy piazza "Author: adverseeffect
i know a guy who chose H over a full-ride at NYU and wishes he had taken NYU"
this is a commonly expressed sentiment, of dubious sincerity. think of it more as an opportunity to issue an i-went-to-harvard reminder. also, there is the perception that affirmatively choosing not to go to harvard is more impressive than actually going. these sorts of retrospective misgivings have the advantage of capturing some of that benefit, without actually having to forego either attending harvard or realizing the various benefits of going to harvard that it's considered bad form even to admit they exist. |
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Date: March 7th, 2005 1:58 PM Author: Magical silver orchestra pit dysfunction Choose Harvard. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. Michigan is a huge step down in prestige from Harvard. There is no other institution like Harvard; there are a dozen institutions like Michigan. A Harvard education and the Harvard brand name will last you a lifetime. Unless you are in financial straits, there is no reason for you to choose Michigan. You will be making enough money out of law school to repay your debt without a problem. When it comes to your education, don't choose the dicounted inferior product. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=145424&forum_id=2#2276329) |
Date: March 7th, 2005 1:45 PM Author: greedy self-centered rehab Easy call: Michigan. You lose nothing and become part of a priviledged caste in Ann Arbor. Remember, the school will be highly invested in your success, and they'll do all they can to help you get where you want to go. They don't dump 100 grand on someone and not want them to be successful. You also won't have to be a biglaw indentured servant on graduation, unless you want to. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=145424&forum_id=2#2276217) |
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Date: March 7th, 2005 1:59 PM Author: racy stage telephone What exactly do you think that they are going to do for Darrows that they aren't already doing for the rest of us? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=145424&forum_id=2#2276336) |
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Date: March 8th, 2005 1:53 PM Author: galvanic mauve box office trust fund Subject: Money they invested in you. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=145424&forum_id=2#2285571) |
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Date: March 9th, 2005 7:53 AM Author: Honey-headed titillating nibblets This isn't really the case. Once Darrows are in the school, they're anonymous and treated like everyone else. I suppose you could go around telling people that you have the scholarship, but I find that most people don't. A friend told me that the professors "know who we are" and keep an eye on us, but I've never really seen evidence of that. I think they give the Darrows to people they don't think they will have to push to have succeed.
It does, I think, look good on the resume especially first year when it's hard to otherwise distinguish yourself. |
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Date: March 7th, 2005 1:49 PM Author: talented primrose double fault The intelligent decision is to take the Darrow.
If I were in your shoes, I would pick Harvard.
Oh, and HLS' finaid is not going to make your decision any easier.
Look, if you REAALLLY want to go to Harvard, you should go. But regognize that you'll be taking a decent $$ hit for existential piece of mind that may not come. |
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Date: March 7th, 2005 1:53 PM Author: exciting area decent hit? 100 grand is nothing to laugh at. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=145424&forum_id=2#2276286) |
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Date: March 7th, 2005 1:51 PM Author: Vigorous indian lodge Obviously Darrow. The H mystique will wear off once you have to pay back 150K in 3 yrs. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=145424&forum_id=2#2276275) |
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Date: March 7th, 2005 1:57 PM Author: Flatulent Hideous Legal Warrant Corner Subject: This is good, folks, keep it comming, but... Could somebody - anybody - please say Harvard and give a good reason/justification? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=145424&forum_id=2#2276323) |
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Date: March 7th, 2005 1:59 PM Author: Vigorous indian lodge Of course not. People don't turn down Darrows except for Yale. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=145424&forum_id=2#2276346) |
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Date: March 7th, 2005 2:03 PM Author: greedy self-centered rehab This is really the wrong place to ask a question like this. This board is full of people with pathetic lives who seek to validate their existance with fancy diplomas. People in the real world understand that a Michigan Law degree still puts you up in the upper-most perecentiles in terms of an elite education, and don't split hairs between schools ranked #3 and #7. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=145424&forum_id=2#2276373) |
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Date: March 7th, 2005 2:22 PM Author: Magical silver orchestra pit dysfunction The board is full of people who haven't had the option of Harvard and therefore are all about choosing Michigan. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=145424&forum_id=2#2276489) |
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Date: March 7th, 2005 4:22 PM Author: Slate heaven boltzmann Can't speak for others, but I was in at Harvard and happily accepted Michigan. Can't imagine a better legal education than what I'm getting here. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=145424&forum_id=2#2277394) |
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Date: March 7th, 2005 4:28 PM Author: aquamarine lascivious point crotch Yeah, this board is full of dumbasses who couldn't get into Harvard so they had to go to Michigan. Or even, GULC, NU or PEnn! (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=145424&forum_id=2#2277438) |
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Date: March 7th, 2005 11:17 PM Author: cruel-hearted tanning salon candlestick maker All the pro-Michigan people are TTT's who are jealous of your HLS acceptance. Good reason? Harvard is Harvard and Michigan is TTT. Even if it is not yet a true TTT, it is well on its way (even Michigan trolls can't make the claim the school is moving up).
150k of debt is nothing over 10+ years. If debt is really a concern, use your 2L summer earnings to pay for 3L tuition. You also have a decent shot at HLS of landing a paying 1L job, which would allow you to pay for your 2L tuition. If you decide to be some leftist PI lawyer, there is loan repayment assistance. The bottom line is that 150k is a trivial amount giving your earning potential.
Lastly, compare the success of HLS grads to Michigan grads. Not to mention that you'll be an alumni of one of, if not the, finest institution in the world. |
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Date: March 7th, 2005 1:58 PM Author: Provocative topaz macaca I faced the EXACT same decision last year. It's possible you can find the thread on here. I'll check after I post this.
I'm at Harvard. I am 100% happy with this decision. If I would have chosen Michigan, I would probably have been 100% happy with that choice as well. I think in retrospect you'll be in the same position. I really like it here, I've had great interactions and connections with professors, and I actually got a lot of financial aid (I didn't at first, they upped it later in the semester).
I guess my outlook could change after I graduate and have debt, but I don't think so. I talked to a former Darrow who is a law prof, and a few other impartial (or bias toward U-M) people, and many of them said "Don't make money your prime consideration in this instance." Your debt won't destroy you if you go to Harvard.
If you already have 100K in debt and you have filthy rich parents who don't give you a dime (screwing you out of financial aid), then U-M may be best.
Like I said, though, I think you're going to be happy either way. I talked to a couple of Michigan darrows that were confronted with the same decision, and they seemed genuinely happy.
EDIT: http://www.xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=6310&mc=32&forum_id=2 |
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Date: March 7th, 2005 2:21 PM Author: Flatulent Hideous Legal Warrant Corner Thanks for the linky. it's good to know there are others who had the same mental anguish as what i'm going through. i've spoken to a couple people who were offered free rides at nyu. one is a 3L at nyu, and he is happy turning down harvard. one just graduated harvard and has a federal clerkship, and he is happy with his decision. i know that either way i can't really go wrong. it's just that i thought harvard would be the easy choice, cuz debt is such an abstract concept for me right now. i have no idea what being 100-150k in the hole means. now that i'm actually faced with this, all different angles are popping into my head. |
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Date: March 7th, 2005 2:24 PM Author: Magical silver orchestra pit dysfunction Debt is debt. It just means your salary will be lower after you graduate from Harvard. But your opportunities, education and diploma will be less if you graduate from Michigan. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=145424&forum_id=2#2276504) |
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Date: March 7th, 2005 2:28 PM Author: Provocative topaz macaca OK. If this decision hinges on debt, it IS an easy call. Harvard. In other words if you are thinking "I want to go to Harvard, but the $$ is stopping me," then go to Harvard. The reason I had difficulty was 1) the $$ (i had never been in debt before) and 2) the "Darrow" stamp on the resume. You won't be killed by your debt.
The average(or median, I can't remember) monthly payment for HLS students that incur debt is around $800-$900/mo. So, think of it as $12,000 a year off of your salary for the first 10 years. It stings, but it's certainly not the end of the world, especially considering the average starting out is $125k a year (and that's just for your first year).
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Date: March 7th, 2005 4:33 PM Author: Slate heaven boltzmann Though I'm pushing Michigan (not because of the Darrow, but because I think it's a fantastic law school), I agree completely with your point. The most important thing is to be satisfied with the decision. Plenty of people will (for good reason) be so attracted to Harvard that they would forever regret passing it up for any amount of money or scholarship prestige. I wanted to go to Michigan badly enough that money from Harvard wouldn't have changed my mind. And in between those extremes, it might be a simple cost-benefits analysis.
To the OP: If your heart is pulling you toward Harvard, then go. The debt *will* sting, but you only get to do this once. No matter what, ignore the people who assume that everyone who gets into Harvard chooses it. Plenty of us don't. It is (and should be) a very personal choice. |
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Date: March 7th, 2005 2:05 PM Author: Soggy hominid Take the money and run!!!!!!!!! (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=145424&forum_id=2#2276387) |
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Date: March 7th, 2005 2:07 PM Author: carnelian irradiated jewess nobodyelse: numbers? intended post-law school career track? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=145424&forum_id=2#2276399) |
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Date: March 7th, 2005 2:14 PM Author: Provocative topaz macaca have you visited yet? I mean, it's not like anyone attended both law schools or anything (unless someone is a transfer).
There are #s in USNWR. Also there is info on how many firms interview here (if you want to work in a law firm), the # of SCOTUS clerks etc... HLS gets higher marks on all points, almost invariably, but I don't think the "gap" is wide enough to negate any other factors such as cost. There is nothing that is going to make one the most obvious choice. Trust me, I've been through this. If you go to UM, you will do great. If you go to HLS you will do great.
Just go to law school where you want to go to law school. And don't make $$ the primary basis for your decision. There is no easy formula anyone can give you. There are Darrows at UM who are glad they turned down HLS, and would-be Darrows at HLS that are glad they turned down UM.
EDIT: misread the post I replied to. Thought it was OP. |
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Date: March 7th, 2005 2:15 PM Author: Flatulent Hideous Legal Warrant Corner Subject: X.X, 17x maybe patent law, perhaps academia. a clerkship would be nice. See that's the kicker. Harvard is certainly tops when it comes to clerkships and academia, but the fact is, Michigan is also up there, in better shape than its ranking would let on. Of course, I don't know for sure that's what I want to do, and it probably depends on what opportunities arise for me, but it'd be a nice option to have. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=145424&forum_id=2#2276445) |
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Date: March 7th, 2005 2:35 PM Author: Flatulent Hideous Legal Warrant Corner (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=145424&forum_id=2#2276578) |
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Date: March 7th, 2005 2:39 PM Author: carnelian irradiated jewess if you aren't sure what you want to do post-law school, then it might be smart to take the darrow so you can have more freedom when you graduate. also, if you wanted to go public interest, i would say there is no question -- you should take the darrow. lrap and lipp programs have a million clauses that can affect your potential repayment.
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Date: March 7th, 2005 2:36 PM Author: crimson liquid oxygen new version If you are thinking seriously about academia as a possibility, choose Harvard (unless you get into Yale). The name-snobbery of legal academia just can't be overstated. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=145424&forum_id=2#2276580) |
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Date: March 7th, 2005 3:13 PM Author: Bull headed becky school cafeteria I agree with this assessment. If he just plans on going into private practice, taking $150 in debt just doesn't make sense. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=145424&forum_id=2#2276845) |
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Date: March 8th, 2005 8:22 AM Author: Walnut House Old Irish Cottage I disagree with this assessment. If you're thinking seriously about academia in patent law, Rebecca Eisenberg seriously seriously rocks. Name-snobbery is more about who you know than where you're from.
OP, Feel free to e-mail me if you want to know more about this. |
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Date: March 8th, 2005 8:54 AM Author: Cracking spot selfie Publication record is more important than any of this garbage... (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=145424&forum_id=2#2283872) |
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Date: March 8th, 2005 9:01 AM Author: Bull headed becky school cafeteria Eh, maybe you're right for this area of law, but, as a general rule, Harvard tends to carry a bit more weight.
Not that Michigan is unable to produce good professors - hell, you and I both know good examples of Mich-educated profs - but Harvard is a machine. It's got the combined weight of the H-Bomb factor and connections in most major judicial markets. |
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Date: March 7th, 2005 2:42 PM Author: Duck-like at-the-ready mad cow disease tattoo It is so fucking annoying when people who havent spent an hour in a law school class say they want to be legal professors. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=145424&forum_id=2#2276621) |
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Date: March 7th, 2005 3:29 PM Author: Flatulent Hideous Legal Warrant Corner Subject: yea just like it's annoying that people who have never had surgery want to be doctors. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=145424&forum_id=2#2276933) |
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Date: March 7th, 2005 3:31 PM Author: greedy self-centered rehab 180 (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=145424&forum_id=2#2276945) |
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Date: March 7th, 2005 4:38 PM Author: blathering circlehead 150. Med schools virtually always require applicants to have spend shadowing a physician. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=145424&forum_id=2#2277514) |
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Date: March 7th, 2005 5:14 PM Author: thriller black woman Were you commenting on the post, or just posting your LSAT score? You totally missed the analogy - try a logical reasoning course. HTH (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=145424&forum_id=2#2277842) |
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Date: March 7th, 2005 4:33 PM Author: Cracking spot selfie Obvious question --
Have you heard from yale? |
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Date: March 7th, 2005 2:41 PM Author: Burgundy pocket flask Does anyone have an idea about what percentage of those asked to apply for the Darrow are given it? Has anyone been turned down or know of someone who has been turned down after being asked to apply?
Thanks. |
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Date: March 7th, 2005 2:44 PM Author: Provocative topaz macaca I think, though this is mostly speculation, you're pretty certain to get it if you're asked to apply. I e-mailed my essay in at the last minute, and it wasn't my best work (it was free of typos/grammatical errors, but I really didn't put too much work into it). Again, this is just speculation. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=145424&forum_id=2#2276643) |
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Date: March 7th, 2005 3:20 PM Author: Sickened ultramarine space that was my impression as well, although i did put a lot of work into that essay. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=145424&forum_id=2#2276891) |
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Date: March 7th, 2005 4:23 PM Author: excitant nudist nursing home incorrect. you will get some money, but it could only be half tuition. not every invite gets the full ride and stipend. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=145424&forum_id=2#2277402) |
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Date: March 7th, 2005 4:24 PM Author: excitant nudist nursing home GO TO MICHIGAN (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=145424&forum_id=2#2277409) |
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Date: March 7th, 2005 4:25 PM Author: jet mediation Michigan (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=145424&forum_id=2#2277417) |
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Date: March 7th, 2005 4:30 PM Author: Frozen death wish With zero real knowledge (as someone who hasn't even started law school) here are my thoughts:
If Academia, BigLaw are your goals then go to Harvard. For academia I think the added boost Harvard gives you not only in terms of name but in the people you meet who would be able to help you is significant enough that it outweighs the cost difference between Mich and Harvard. For BigLaw the money you'll be making is such that the added debt you will incur by going to Harvard will be relatively inconsequential in a short period of time so really shouldn't be a factor.
If your goal is to do gov't work, public interest, work at a small/med sized "lifestyle" type of firm then go to Michigan. Having significant debt with these goals could be a substantial hinderance and I don't think Harvard would open up that many more doors in these categories to make up for that.
I don't think you can really go wrong with either choice but if you want to weigh things I think this makes sense. |
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Date: March 7th, 2005 4:34 PM Author: jet mediation The OP will get a job that pays $125k whether he goes to Harvard or Michigan. Taking on $150k for the Harvard name is pretty idiotic in that situation. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=145424&forum_id=2#2277488) |
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Date: March 7th, 2005 4:36 PM Author: hairless son of senegal property agreed. $1000 a month payments can be better spent elsewhere. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=145424&forum_id=2#2277499) |
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Date: March 7th, 2005 4:37 PM Author: Vigorous indian lodge You don't make connections in LS. other students can't help you and profs aren't getting you Biglaw, it's the prestige of the LS.
I'd go to UM just so i could win arguments by saying "dude, the only reason I'm even here debating you is b/c this shithole gave me a fullride." That'd be pretty cool.
Seriously though. H over M can help for academia but the big thing is getting a top COA or Scotus clerkship and publishing some smart sounding shit.
I'd take the Darrow. |
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Date: March 7th, 2005 4:41 PM Author: Cracking spot selfie You kinda screwed some of this up.
Academia -> Harvard. Nobody except Yale places better (by a wide margin). You take the extra debt if it means you can get the job you want.
Biglaw -> Michigan. Salaries coming out are EXACTLY the same. Particular firm is dictated much more by variation in your class than by the name on the letterhead. You'll get the market you want and make bank either way.
Gov't work/Public Interest -> Harvard. Much better alumni network, brand-name value of a Harvard degree is more important if you're jumping into law-related fields, and these employers will go appreciably deeper in to the HLS class than the Michigan class for such employment. LRAP will take care of the debt burden if you go down this path.
MIDLAW/'Lifestyle' firm -> Michigan. With the lower salary, the debt burden will mean a lot more if you go to Harvard.
All of this assumes you are valuing the Darrow at $150K of principal, and you are valuing the personal satisfaction or whatever of the HLS degree at $0. If it's higher than that, and i'm guessing it is in this case, then nobody can really answer these questions except the OP. |
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Date: March 7th, 2005 4:46 PM Author: aquamarine lascivious point crotch I think you're overestimating the generosity of LRAP. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=145424&forum_id=2#2277566) |
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Date: March 7th, 2005 5:11 PM Author: Cracking spot selfie LRAP is golden if you're in the qualifying careers, which the category I outlined would obviously include. I don't feel like looking this up to prove it to you, but if you're interested it's all on the internet.
Anyhow, even if it wasn't 100%, it would lower the debt burden SIGNIFICANTLY. all LRAP money would have to be weighed against the value of the Darrow, and that would narrow the gap enough that it's not worth worrying about, IMO.
EDIT: It might be 'LIPP'... I can't keep all this proprietary garbage straight |
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Date: March 7th, 2005 5:07 PM Author: Frozen death wish Harvard v. Michigan re: Biglaw isn't because you'll be making so much more going to Harvard rather than Mich it's just that with the amount of money you'll be making the cost of law school just isn't that significant. If you get a big law job you can pay off school debt in like 2-3 years. That being the case the cost isn't really significant so why not go to the "better" school?
Gov't/Public Interest: By Gov't I was thinking DOJ/SEC/etc. As far as I know the recruiting for these branches/agencies isn't that much different whether at Harvard or Mich making me think you'd be better off at Mich because of the lower pay. Similarly with Public interest as in doing asylum law or some such. Also I think LRAP isn't particularly generous in that it requires a sub 50K salary doesn't it (which would exclude work at gov't offices where the pay is more than that but half of BigLaw salaries)?
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Date: March 7th, 2005 5:13 PM Author: Cracking spot selfie "That being the case the cost isn't really significant so why not go to the "better" school?"
BECAUSE if what you want is to be in BigLaw than there IS no 'better' school. They are the same in terms of employment prospects, etc. You get no advantage from Harvard in this scenario other than the existential value of having a Harvard degree, and this is not worth $150K. Differential career prospects might be. Bragging rights are not.
EDIT: On the public interest stuff, for strictly DOJ/SEC I think you're right and it doesn't matter. But for the broader area of government/public interest, there's an appreciable advantage from the HLS degree; esp. if you want to jump into public policy. And LRAP is graduated after 50K, i'm almost sure. Even if it doesn't wipe out all your debt it'll wipe out enough of it that Harvard is worth taking, i'd say. |
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Date: March 7th, 2005 5:29 PM Author: Frozen death wish Even if you want to go into BigLaw there IS still a better school. 1) As far as I know Harvard has a superior faculty, I doubt the quality of education is substantially different at Harvard v. Michigan but I'm willing to believe that the quality of education is nonetheless superior at Harvard than at Michigan. 2) Even if prospects for income aren't substantially different I think you likely have more flexibility with a Harvard degree than a Mich degree. On a basic level Harvard grad might get $125k and Mich grad might get $125k meaning there is no difference. But I think it's likely that a Harvard grad will have more flexibility in terms of what $125k job he/she takes over a Michigan grad. If all you want is any BigLaw job then it makes no difference but I think even within BigLaw people have preferences towards some firms over others and that being the case I think Harvard would give you more choices than Michigan. (note: I think the higher your ranking the less difference there would be between Harvard/Michigan).
Now are these differences worth the money? Since I think the debt load is trivial given the amount of money you'd be making in BigLaw I'd say yes these differences are worth the money. |
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Date: March 7th, 2005 8:33 PM Author: Slate heaven boltzmann I have great respect for Harvard, but I think you are placing undue weight on the name alone. As far as getting Biglaw jobs are concerned, Michigan's students can pretty much go wherever they want. I'm in roughly the middle of my class at Michigan and had fourteen callbacks in NYC. Out of those, eight were in the Vault top fifteen. I got offers from the first six firms I interviewed at, then cancelled the rest of my callbacks, as I already had an offer from my first-choice firm. Pretty much everyone I know had multiple offers, all in the city of their first choice. Many people got offers from the firm of their first choice as well.
I'm not arguing that this is unique to Michigan; Harvard students probably do just as well. Harvard students at the bottom of their class might do better than those at the bottom of ours (though I don't know that to be the case). The fact is that there are plenty of Biglaw jobs to go around, and students at Michigan are just as likely to get them as students from other top-ten schools.
I simply disagree with your "quality of education" argument.
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Date: March 7th, 2005 8:41 PM Author: Frisky Yellow Native Stock Car out of curiosity what gpa is middle of the pack at michigan? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=145424&forum_id=2#2279735) |
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Date: March 8th, 2005 12:40 AM Author: Slate heaven boltzmann No idea. I got in; that's really all I cared about. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=145424&forum_id=2#2282057) |
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Date: March 8th, 2005 8:45 AM Author: Cracking spot selfie I think he/she means your GPA at Michigan, not your ugrad GPA. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=145424&forum_id=2#2283853) |
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Date: March 8th, 2005 4:52 PM Author: Slate heaven boltzmann Sorry, I misunderstood. 3.3. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=145424&forum_id=2#2286776) |
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Date: March 7th, 2005 8:52 PM Author: Frozen death wish Well I'm not saying it's difficult for Michigan students to get jobs (and as someone who will probably go to Michigan I hope your analysis of the situation at Michigan is true) but of the firms that I've seen it seems that Harvard is represented above and beyond what one would simply get based on the bigger class size of Harvard and self-selection towards a particular geographic area. This makes me think that Harvard has an easier time placing people.
Well quality of education is difficult to gauge but is there any reason to think that overall Harvard isn't stronger academically than Michigan? |
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Date: March 8th, 2005 8:49 AM Author: Cracking spot selfie 'the firms that i've seen' is not a particularly persuasive argument. 'above and beyond what one would simply get based on the bigger class size' is not a quantifiable metric. You are just looking at random anecdotal data and seeing what you want to see.
"is there any reason to think that overall Harvard isn't stronger academically than Michigan?"
Yes. The faculty is basically the same, with the distinctions drawn on small differences in the prodigious publishing of Harvard over Michigan. This does not matter, since good researcher != good teacher. This is, of course, irrelevant, since as I already established, the issue of 'quality of education' is completely irrelevant to BigLaw firm hiring when talking about Harvard vs. Michigan. |
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Date: March 8th, 2005 8:43 AM Author: Cracking spot selfie 1) Faculty quality is both equivalent and irrelevant.
It's equivalent because well over 75% of everyone who teaches at the t14 schools graduated at the top of their class from about five institutions +law review +fancy clerkship; what distinguishes Harvard and Michigan faculty is minute differences in publication history which is irrelevant to the 'quality of education'.
It's irrelevant because there's no absolute 'quality of education' measure which goes into whether or not you secure a BigLaw career. Where you are in your class will determine how fancy of a firm you can go to; the biggest badasses will go deeper into the Harvard class than the Michigan class, but those distinctions are immaterial to whether or not you can secure a $125K job in the market of your choice. It's also irrelevant because what you learn in law school has limited applicability to being a lawyer, and almost zero applicability to being a BigLaw lawyer.
2) Preferences toward individual firms are governed by a lot of things beyond your control (like if you get selected to interview with the firms you are interested in at OCI). At Harvard the top firms will go deeper into a slightly stronger class. At Michigan they'll go shallower into a slightly stronger class. It's a wash. And anyway, people don't pick firms the way they pick law schools.
Also, to say the debt load is TRIVIAL is absolutely INSANE, and suggests you are a 15 year old who has never had more than $2K in expenses per year (which have been paid by your parents) or $400 in your bank account at any given time. Take $125K/year, now chop off 45K for taxes. Now subtract $20K for modest living in NYC. That's $40K/year you are left with; this is the black side of the equation.
On the red side of the equation, take $150K of debt. Now double it, because that's what you're going to lose in interest payments over the lifetime of payments. That's $300K. Now do some multiplication. You're looking at 7.5 years worth of post-tax, post-expense income that is going toward paying off your loan burden; money you could've put toward a house, invested in the market, or muni bonds, or something else which PAYS out a return instead of stemming the tide of interest on your loans.
Inflate the value of the lost capital over a 20 or 30 year lifetime, and you are talking about an absolute savings difference that could easily exceed $1M.
Now try to argue that you have 'more flexibility' with a Harvard degree than a Michigan degree for BigLaw.
The reasons you pick Harvard over a Michigan Darrow are because there are things that are more important than the bottom line financially; these include having a career with acceptable job satisfaction. For a BigLaw career, where the bottom line IS money, you are comparing apples to apples, and thus have no argument to forego $1M+ over a lifetime for whatever imaginary marginal benefit you think comes from having a 5% higher chance of getting Wilmer DC over Baker Botts.
Please. |
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Date: March 8th, 2005 8:50 AM Author: Deranged public bath Great post.
My only concern would be that for a very few, very competitive markets - say, SF biglaw, or DC appellate lit - a mediocre Michigan student would have a tougher time than a mediocre Harvard student. But I'm not even sure how big that difference is.
Bottom line, unless you're one of a few exceptions, pick Michigan + Darrow. |
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Date: March 8th, 2005 8:59 AM Author: Cracking spot selfie I could see this being the case but it's too specialized of a question for me to be able to comment intelligently.
I can see a number of reasons to go with Harvard, actually. But BigLaw is most definitely the weakest one.
Also, while i'm quick enough to do the math, I'm young and stupid enough to turn down the money. But people should make these choices with their eyes wide open. |
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Date: March 8th, 2005 9:06 AM Author: Bull headed becky school cafeteria I think your estimates might even be a little conervative. $20K for a lawyer's life in NYC is pretty low. That assumes, max, around $1200-1300 for an apartment. I'm sorry, but unless you live in Brighton Beach (extreme edge of Brooklyn), you're not going to spend that little money living in the City. Just buying groceries there is ridiculously expensive.
Good post, and I think you're dead on otherwise. |
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Date: March 8th, 2005 9:19 AM Author: Cracking spot selfie Yeah, I wanted to be conservative in case I got a flurry of angry and financially illiterate responses like 'I live like a king on $5K/year' or 'Taxes? My accountant will take care of that' or '$1M isn't $150K; they're different numbers, moron.' (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=145424&forum_id=2#2283936) |
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Date: March 8th, 2005 9:33 AM Author: Bull headed becky school cafeteria Ah, the irrefutable logic displayed so often in these conversations. Understandable that you'd want to avoid that. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=145424&forum_id=2#2283998) |
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Date: March 8th, 2005 12:25 PM Author: Frozen death wish "'the firms that i've seen' is not a particularly persuasive argument. 'above and beyond what one would simply get based on the bigger class size' is not a quantifiable metric. You are just looking at random anecdotal data and seeing what you want to see. "
Well it's not completely random anecdotal evidence. I'd say if you looked at the 5 biggest SF law firms/firms with the biggest offices in SF I think it'd be pretty clear that Harvard tends to place a lot more people than Michigan. I think the firm I work at takes a lot of Michigan folks but unless Harvard is cranking out 5 times as many lawyers who want to come to SF I'd be surprised to hear that Michigan/Harvard placement is equal. But no this isn't a scientific study. If you have some good placement statistics I'd be happy to read them, especially if they make Michigan look good.
"This is, of course, irrelevant, since as I already established, the issue of 'quality of education' is completely irrelevant to BigLaw firm hiring when talking about Harvard vs. Michigan. " This isn't irrelevant. Quality of education as a metric may be useless in terms of hiring but that doesn't make it useless in terms of something you want. Going to law school and wanting to work at a big firm doesn't mean you don't care about your education. You can actually want to learn and want to work in BigLaw at the same time.
"Also, to say the debt load is TRIVIAL is absolutely INSANE, and suggests you are a 15 year old who has never had more than $2K in expenses per year (which have been paid by your parents) or $400 in your bank account at any given time. Take $125K/year, now chop off 45K for taxes. Now subtract $20K for modest living in NYC. That's $40K/year you are left with; this is the black side of the equation." I'd prefer not to get into ad hominems but if I can live on $50K a year (pre-tax) in SF with a pretty comfortable life then yeah I think paying down $150k in debt with a $125k income (not including bonuses) should be pretty damn easy to the extent that I would view it as trivial, especially since you're starting at $125k and will be getting lockstep raises every year.
"On the red side of the equation, take $150K of debt. Now double it, because that's what you're going to lose in interest payments over the lifetime of payments. That's $300K. Now do some multiplication. You're looking at 7.5 years worth of post-tax, post-expense income that is going toward paying off your loan burden; money you could've put toward a house, invested in the market, or muni bonds, or something else which PAYS out a return instead of stemming the tide of interest on your loans." Are you not getting any raises at your law firm? What kind of BigLaw place are you working at? You'd have at least a bit less than $150k unless you didn't get any summer associate BigLaw job either 1L or 2L/blew all your money. Also yeah over the life of the loan it might be $300,000 but the life of the loan is a long-time at low interest. It's not like $150,000 on your credit card or something.
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Date: March 8th, 2005 1:43 PM Author: Cracking spot selfie "Well it's not completely random anecdotal evidence. I'd say if you looked at the 5 biggest SF law firms/firms with the biggest offices in SF I think it'd be pretty clear that Harvard tends to place a lot more people than Michigan."
Without controlling for class size, alternate career routes, and geographic distribution, this proves nothing.
"unless Harvard is cranking out 5 times as many lawyers who want to come to SF I'd be surprised to hear that Michigan/Harvard placement is equal"
Harvard might very well be cranking out 5x as many lawyers who want to go to SF. Or maybe your firm has a particular affinity for HLS lawyers. And you didn't deal with the reality that any marginal differences in the absolute percentage of grads accepted are probably balanced by the weaker competition at Michigan. Particularly in the case of the OP (I doubt there are many Darrows riding the bottom of the class). Anyway, all of this is irrelevant. If you want a BigLaw job in the market of your choice, you can go to either school. Any marginal placement advantage associated with the ephemeral 'eliteness' of the firm you get is far outweighed by the value of $1M+ over a career.
" I can live on $50K a year (pre-tax) in SF with a pretty comfortable life then yeah I think paying down $150k in debt with a $125k income (not including bonuses) should be pretty damn easy to the extent that I would view it as trivial"
You're confusing 'easy' with 'trivial'. At an average of $150K (to deal with your raises point), the debt burden is of course manageable, even perhaps 'easy'. However, living on $50K, you're talking about giving up all of your potential savings cash for 6 years (300/(100-50)), and the value of that money over a career is well in excess of $1M. And to say that a million dollars is a 'trivial' sacrifice in order to have, say, a 20% greater shot at employment at Morrison & Foerster SF in order to avoid getting 'stuck' at Orrick seems, to me, kind of ludicrous.
"Also yeah over the life of the loan it might be $300,000 but the life of the loan is a long-time at low interest."
It's not just the minimization of interest payments, it's the opportunity cost associated with paying down the debt instead of investing that money in POSITIVE growth outlets. It is the *total* cost of these which will exceed $1M.
A million dollars is not trivial, and certainly not in the face of what you're 'offering' in trade.
EDIT: Sorry for getting overexcited. I just think the idea that the monetary difference is 'trivial' is completely ludicrous, since you're overlooking the equity side of the equation (not that $300K on the debt side isn't a huge thing to give up, either!) |
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Date: March 8th, 2005 2:05 PM Author: Frozen death wish Just have to be quick here (and just as an aside I do agree with most of your initial analysis, which I certainly find reasonable)
I think you'd be starting with a debt load of less than $150k but for the sake of argument lets say you are.
1) Correct me if I'm wrong but about $54k of that debt would be very low interest Gov't subsidized loans.
2) When saying it's $300k worth of debt I don't think that's accurate. Using the Wells Fargo calculator they calculate a $150,000 loan at 6% for a 10 year term being $200,000. Also the sooner you're paying off the loan the closer it'll be to $150k than $300k in any event. Your debt calculations seem to assume a max total repayment due but your spending calculations seem to assume the fastest possible debt repayment.
3) Isn't student loan interest payments tax deductible?
4) I think $150k still underestimates potential starting income. I think by your second year you could easily meet $150k when bonuses are factored in, achieving $150k in base salary by year 3. |
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Date: March 8th, 2005 5:11 PM Author: Slate heaven boltzmann Student loan payments are not deductible unless you meet a number of conditions, one of which is adjusted gross income below $65k.
$150 does not underestamate starting income for most of Biglaw. In NYC, you'll likely hit that number with bonuses but in most other cities, the top Biglaw firms will pay just short of that with bonuses. You're definitely correct about the second year. For the third, it's worth noting that the large majority of attorneys who started in Biglaw will have voluntarily left. It's not unreasonable to assume that many of those who don't leave would but for debt obligations.
My debt will exceed $150k coming out of Michigan. It was well worth it to me (but ask again five years later). Still, I would think twice before rejecting an opportunity to get rid of it. |
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Date: March 8th, 2005 6:06 PM Author: Frozen death wish Hmm didn't know that about student loan payments. Will rethink.
I think $150k/yr average underestimates the income of a BigLaw associate for what I thought was over a 6-8 year period of time.
Right plenty of associates leave but as you not many are working only to pay off debt. The assumption I was working off of was if someone wants to work in BigLaw not to pay off debt but because that's what they want to do. I think $150k isn't really much of a factor because if you're going to want a life centered on BigLaw the $150k really isn't much of an issue and in my current, yet perhaps evolving view, trivial (in that debt really should be a real consideration at all in picking schools) considering how much you'll make with a career in BigLaw.
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Date: March 8th, 2005 6:32 PM Author: hairless son of senegal property it will definitely be a consideration when you need to buy a bmw to make you happy.
i guess my remark is a bit tongue-in-cheek, but there is definitely a certain amount of "comfort" that you need to buy when you work at a biglaw office. maybe that is an apartment that is large, close to the office and has a washer/dryer so you can do your laundry at 1 am. maybe that is a nice car which you only see twice a day: going to work and coming home.
i guess you can live on $50,000, but you might go crazy if you have to commute a heinous amount or worry about your drycleaning bill.
i'm going to try to not worry about the luxury items, but i know that there are certain things that will make my life easier when i become an attorney.
edit: i see you already work in a firm so i think you know what i am talking about. |
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Date: March 8th, 2005 6:47 PM Author: Frozen death wish Yeah I guess some people want/need a lot of stuff, nothing wrong with that but like housing for ex. I just don't see the point of having the killer place when you're going to be spending so little time there (obviously you still want an okay place and if anything like me a big ass TV), but how nice of a place do you need when you're working I'd say typical Associate hours of 9am-8-9pm M-F, 10am-7pm Sat, perhaps some time on Sun? Also some things which might be an issue in some places (relatively high dry cleaning bills) are pretty low in corp. casual SF. Commuting could be a pain but you can work during the commute time (billable) and when you're working late you would typically get a cab/car service voucher making getting home pretty painless (and free). You're working late most nights, thus free dinners, and a lot of firms have free breakfast kind of things or subsidized breakfast/lunch foods cutting down on food costs (also you're often trapped in meetings with food provided...you get sick of it but how fast is an individual thing). (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=145424&forum_id=2#2287604) |
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Date: March 8th, 2005 6:57 PM Author: hairless son of senegal property yeah, i agree with most of the stuff. i guess i'm not talking about a kickass place more like, an upgrade: no roommates if you would have to have them on $50,000, a closer place, a gym in your building or nearby.
i'm big on convenience. thats probably my big thing, and i want all other money to go straight into my bank accounts!
are you going to the first admitted students weekend for mich? |
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Date: March 8th, 2005 7:15 PM Author: Frozen death wish The gym near work is better. Sometime you need it to take a shower when you do the all-nighter (plus if typical there'll be some special deal with the firm getting you a better rate).
I'm going to the first admit weekend. Have to take some god awful 6am flight to be in Detroit around 3pm. You? |
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Date: March 8th, 2005 8:10 PM Author: hairless son of senegal property me too. i don't get in until 4 pm though and i have a connection.
wait, your firm doesn't have showers in the office? i really wish i had a cot in my cubicle. |
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Date: March 8th, 2005 8:26 PM Author: Frozen death wish Yeah I have to connect in Denver.
There are showers at my office but I'd much prefer to use the showers at my gym. A cot would be nice. Usually I don't bother sleeping though. To be honest I haven't had to do too many all-nighters, say 4-5 times over a 5 year period. |
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Date: March 7th, 2005 9:01 PM Author: Frozen death wish Yeah for the broader Gov't/Public Interest category I guess you're right re Harvard, particularly the further away you get from a lawyer type job in the Gov't/Public Interest category. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=145424&forum_id=2#2279915) |
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Date: March 7th, 2005 4:43 PM Author: Slate heaven boltzmann The vast majority of Michigan students choose to enter Biglaw. I know only one person that is going to a "small/med sized 'lifestyle' type of firm" and he's doing it for family reasons. Michigan does push public interest work (government work less so, outside of clerkships), but the people who choose it tend to be in the top half of the class and go that direction because they prefer it to Biglaw. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=145424&forum_id=2#2277548) |
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Date: March 7th, 2005 5:18 PM Author: Deranged public bath Michigan, unless (1) you are certain that you want to be a law professor or (2) you (or your family) are wealthy enough so that 150K is not a significant amount of money.
One of the most significant benefits of being debt-free is rarely mentioned on this board - the fact that you will still have the choice to enter into a career that is far less lucrative. Many third and fourth year biglaw associates currently in practice yearn for that flexibility which is taken away by that amount of debt.
adverseeffect's post near the top of this thread is on target. |
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Date: March 7th, 2005 9:38 PM Author: histrionic spruce haunted graveyard school Subject: Choose Harvard! I am in a similar situation to the one you're in. i was offered the Levy at Penn(didn't apply to Michigan) and will be turning it down to go to Harvard. The big H's name will follow you around for the rest of your life and that is certainly worth more in terms of opportunities and personal satisfaction than a measly 150k of extra debt over 3 years. Also if you want to go into public interest work Harvard's loan repayment program can't be beat.
I look forward to meeting you next year! |
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Date: March 7th, 2005 9:42 PM Author: greedy self-centered rehab The darrow is a much nicer deal than the Levy. It's full tuition and living stipend. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=145424&forum_id=2#2280270) |
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Date: March 7th, 2005 11:03 PM Author: Amber useless brakes main people I came to that conclusion as well. The Levy is a generous offer, but at 2/3 tuition it cannot compare to the Darrow--or HYS, in my mind. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=145424&forum_id=2#2281043) |
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Date: March 9th, 2005 12:30 AM Author: Slimy crackhouse Yeah, I know a guy who turned down full ride at Penn for NYU. Of course, not many would have, but he just really didn't want to be at Penn and loved NYC. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=145424&forum_id=2#2290716) |
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Date: March 7th, 2005 9:43 PM Author: clear home puppy "tough choice debated at the xo board: Harvard or full scholarship at Michigan? i certainly come down on the side of less law school debt when picking between roughly comparable law schools; you will almost certainly be more limited in your career options by a large debt load than you will by having a marginally inferior alma mater on your resume."
I can't believe this thread got a mention on jd2b |
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Date: March 7th, 2005 11:01 PM Author: Amber useless brakes main people Regardless of what people say, the decision is not an easy one. Early last year I narrowed my decision to the Darrow and SLS. I ultimately decided to take the Darrow. Michigan is a great school and the scholarship more than outweighs the nontrivial benefits of attending school at Stanford.
After making that decision, but before officially accepting with Michigan, I got into YLS and decided to go there. The grading scheme, loan repayment program (COAP) and career placement options put a heavy thumb on Yale's side of the scale that even a full ride at a top-10 could not outweigh. For what it's worth, Yale is the only option for which I would forego the Darrow. |
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Date: March 8th, 2005 2:34 AM Author: Aphrodisiac international law enforcement agency Hear, hear! (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=145424&forum_id=2#2283157) |
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Date: March 8th, 2005 10:31 AM Author: Maize menage Subject: stipend does anyone know how much money the stipend is? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=145424&forum_id=2#2284309) |
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Date: March 8th, 2005 10:50 AM Author: Flatulent Hideous Legal Warrant Corner 5k a year. that's above free tution. you get to keep that 5 grand. the money you earn over the summer: you get to keep it, not use it to pay back loans. that's why 150k is not a trivial amount because you'll have sources of income with which to pay it back. it's a difference between lowering your red vs. adding to your black. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=145424&forum_id=2#2284377) |
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Date: March 8th, 2005 10:54 AM Author: Cracking spot selfie correct (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=145424&forum_id=2#2284392) |
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Date: March 8th, 2005 12:34 PM Author: Honey-headed titillating nibblets I think you're right that people are generally happy with their decisions and don't spend time regretting either choice. I'm a Darrow, definitely made some sacrifices to come here and I certainly don't regret it at all. It also depends on your approach to law school and what you want to get out of it. You sound like you know some current Darrows to ask them questions but I'd be happy to answer any if you like. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=145424&forum_id=2#2284928) |
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Date: March 8th, 2005 12:41 PM Author: splenetic diverse trailer park internal respiration as much as michigan is a ttt in decline it's still a top 14 and you can't beat a free ride. choose michigan. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=145424&forum_id=2#2284986) |
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Date: March 8th, 2005 8:34 PM Author: Cracking spot selfie How many Darrow offers are extended every year? I thought this number was pretty small, but we seem to have a lot of current and former kids who were offered Darrows on this thread. What gives? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=145424&forum_id=2#2288464) |
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Date: March 8th, 2005 8:41 PM Author: racy stage telephone I'm not sure that they make that number public. What do you think is small? I know four Darrows in one section here. That might be an abnormal number for one section, but it's the only solid number that I know of. So assume 12 total in the 1L class. Even assuming that half of the Darrows turn it down, that's still only 24 people. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=145424&forum_id=2#2288538) |
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Date: March 8th, 2005 8:55 PM Author: Cracking spot selfie I thought the number was usually between 5-10, with maybe 10-15 offers extended. Either way, we're talking about what, 30-50 offers over two cycles? And i think there's at least five that have popped up on this thread since two days ago?
That's a pretty phat yield for XOXO, is all i'm saying, especially considering the dubious underbelly of this place should turn some people off... |
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Date: March 8th, 2005 8:59 PM Author: racy stage telephone If there are only 5-10, then there are an obscene number of summer-starter Darrows. That might be the case, but I find it surprising.
I know of two Darrows from my class who used to post regularly and one poster from my admissions cycle who turned it down for Yale. Of course, that was back in the PR days. Still, not too shabby. |
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Date: March 9th, 2005 7:50 AM Author: Honey-headed titillating nibblets A lot of people who don't read it regularly check it occasionally. :)
I get the feeling that the number of offers is closer to 50 than 30. I also think that when someone turns it down they offer it to someone else, because I'm pretty sure that the committee meets regularly. So in theory, the number of offers in a given year could depend on how many people turn it down that year. |
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Date: March 9th, 2005 9:22 AM Author: Cracking spot selfie 50 seems ridiculously high given the value of the scholarship and the size of the class.
Also, if they offer it to someone else when someone turns it down, that would mean the number of offers would NOT be dependent on how many people turn it down that year... |
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Date: March 9th, 2005 3:55 PM Author: Honey-headed titillating nibblets Maybe we're miscommunicating- this is all I mean: Say their goal # is 15 Darrows, and they offer it to 25 in the first round. If 20 accept, they wouldn't offer any more that year. Say the next year it's the same, but only 5 accept from the first round, then they'd offer 20 more (for example). Darrows the 2nd year than the first year. So the first year they offered 25 and the 2nd they offered 45, depending on how many people turned it down.
I think it's pretty high as well :). The only thing I'm basing it on is during preview weekend where they have a little event with prospectives, currents and faculty. There were at least 20 offerees, probably more, at the weekend I attended, and probably a comparable number at the other preview weekend, as well as at least a few offerees that didn't go to preview weekend. |
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Date: March 9th, 2005 5:18 PM Author: Cracking spot selfie Yeah, I get it now. I thought by offers you meant available slots; obviously i wasn't paying very much attention.
At any rate, they seem to vet the people they extend offers to, so you'd think they'd have a good idea of what the yield would be in a given year. But you're right; the absolute number of offers could easily fluctuate from year to year. |
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Date: March 9th, 2005 7:46 AM Author: Honey-headed titillating nibblets Based on how many I know (of), I'm guessing that there are about 20 in a class. Maybe more. I was surprised at how many there were based on how the scholarship had been described to me. I don't think four is an abnormal number in one section, I know of sections with more. I also think that a pretty large percentage of the people who are offered Darrow take it. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=145424&forum_id=2#2292180) |
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Date: March 8th, 2005 8:43 PM Author: Sickened ultramarine space from one source i read 10-15, from another source ~5. I am thinking 5 is likely the actual yield while 10-15 is the # of offers extended. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=145424&forum_id=2#2288564) |
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Date: March 8th, 2005 8:53 PM Author: Cracking spot selfie This is more like what I thought, though I can't actually remember why. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=145424&forum_id=2#2288677) |
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Date: March 8th, 2005 9:10 PM Author: Sickened ultramarine space i don't remember where i got the first # (some online source quoted Sarah Z). but here's the source for the second #: http://officialguide.lsac.org/OFFGUIDE/pdf/aba1839.pdf
so it's official ABA data. Look at Pg 2, number of "more than full tuition" awards. Darrows fall under this category. There are 14 "more than full" all together, which translates to about 5 each year. Assuming that they lose a few Darrows in the 2nd year due to transfers, there are about 5-7 darrows in each entering class.
EDIT: this is not counting half Darrow awards. Half Darrows are not nearly as enticing as full ones. |
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Date: March 8th, 2005 9:14 PM Author: racy stage telephone I don't think that Darrows regularly transfer. I mean, presumably they had the opportunity to get in higher ranked schools to begin with, and instead they made their decision to take the money and run. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=145424&forum_id=2#2288876) |
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Date: March 8th, 2005 9:47 PM Author: Sickened ultramarine space well... i, for one, am a prospective darrow without a YHS acceptance so far. sometimes i think Michigan might have gotten the wrong person. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=145424&forum_id=2#2289178) |
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Date: March 8th, 2005 10:14 PM Author: racy stage telephone Two of my closest Darrow friends didn't have HYS acceptances, but they were both in at Columbia. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=145424&forum_id=2#2289399) |
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Date: March 8th, 2005 10:17 PM Author: Sickened ultramarine space ok that made me feel better. :D I will visit Columbia to get their free t-shirt, but am pretty sure that i will take the darrow over it. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=145424&forum_id=2#2289413) |
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Date: March 8th, 2005 10:22 PM Author: Cerebral pale theater stage jew Definitely take the Darrow over CLS. We can hang out then.
Are you going to a Mich admit weekend? |
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Date: March 8th, 2005 10:33 PM Author: Sickened ultramarine space Yup. I am going to the one on the 17th. Really excited. I owe adverseeffect a couple beers and you are welcome to join too! Are you on the MichganLaw2005 yahoo group? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=145424&forum_id=2#2289580) |
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Date: March 8th, 2005 10:49 PM Author: Cerebral pale theater stage jew I am. Well, it's beers all around then, I'll be at the first one, too. psyched. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=145424&forum_id=2#2289693) |
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Date: March 8th, 2005 11:53 PM Author: Slate heaven boltzmann The admissions office here really seems to look at things differently from other schools--personality match (insofar as you can divine that from a collection of essays) is very important. They must have liked something about you very much, so I'd sit back and enjoy the ride! (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=145424&forum_id=2#2290313) |
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Date: March 8th, 2005 8:35 PM Author: aromatic incel marketing idea Michigan (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=145424&forum_id=2#2288470) |
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Date: March 8th, 2005 11:58 PM Author: racy stage telephone I'd probably take Harvard, but a lot of that is personal. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=145424&forum_id=2#2290375) |