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Wine Expert taking questions
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Date: April 19th, 2005 6:07 PM Author: Titillating Unhinged Pervert (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=168309&forum_id=2#2593710) |
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Date: April 19th, 2005 6:08 PM Author: Lascivious startled corner do you find that the limestone in the Macon region of france makes the macon villages chardonnay somewhat thin? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=168309&forum_id=2#2593716) |
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Date: April 19th, 2005 6:16 PM Author: Titillating Unhinged Pervert No, the thinness is due to "overcropping", where they encourage the vines to make too much fruit by overfertilizing or spraying with chemicals. Consequently, the wine tastes thin & kinda watery. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=168309&forum_id=2#2593775) |
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Date: April 19th, 2005 6:18 PM Author: Lascivious startled corner well....not really. i have concluded that you are not an expert. in fact, the limestone/hard water does not interact well with the oak barrels and makes the wine thin. you have been exposed. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=168309&forum_id=2#2593794) |
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Date: April 19th, 2005 6:41 PM Author: Titillating Unhinged Pervert Macon-Villages is cheap wine. It is notoriously overcropped, and therefore it's thin. y
In addition, aging wine in oak barrels actually adds "tannins" to the wine, making it feel thicker & heavier in your mouth. An expensive California Chardonnay (same grape as the Macon Villages) aged in oak has the consistency of a loogi (when you cough up phlegm). Pretty gross, huh?
You've been PWN3D! |
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Date: April 19th, 2005 7:09 PM Author: Lascivious startled corner shitcake, did you consider the interaction of the lime with the oak? no? you lack basic chemistry skills? and any asshole who thinks 'loogie' is an acceptable term is a douche.
you madame, have been pwned. |
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Date: April 19th, 2005 7:11 PM Author: boyish death wish mood this is the most heated I've ever seen a wine discussion get. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=168309&forum_id=2#2594041) |
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Date: April 20th, 2005 2:29 AM Author: floppy cuckoldry I've seen worse. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=168309&forum_id=2#2597231) |
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Date: April 19th, 2005 6:08 PM Author: Emerald histrionic boistinker Have you seen Sideways? I love that guy's wine descriptions. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=168309&forum_id=2#2593720) |
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Date: April 19th, 2005 6:16 PM Author: Titillating Unhinged Pervert Actually I haven't seen it, but I'm going to have to sooner or later. I hear it's pretty cool. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=168309&forum_id=2#2593780) |
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Date: April 19th, 2005 6:13 PM Author: Black bipolar famous landscape painting temple If Wal-Mart were your only option for buying wine for general consumption, which wine would you buy and why? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=168309&forum_id=2#2593759) |
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Date: April 19th, 2005 6:25 PM Author: Titillating Unhinged Pervert I've honestly only been to Wal-Mart once in my life. My jokes about being elite like 174 aren't entirely flame.
The biggest divide in flavor that you'll find is between the "Old" and "New" World wines. The "Old" World wines are from Europe and tend to be a little more complex and severe, and the "New" World wines are from America and Australia and tend to be somewhat richer and simpler.
I would probably buy something like "Red Bicyclette" if they have that - it's cheap but not bad. Wines from South America also tend to be good value for under $10. |
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Date: April 19th, 2005 6:14 PM Author: Jade pisswyrm Any good recs for proseco or cava? I need to buy lots of it so reasonably priced ones would be helpful . (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=168309&forum_id=2#2593765) |
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Date: April 19th, 2005 6:17 PM Author: Brindle cruise ship wine party? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=168309&forum_id=2#2593783) |
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Date: April 19th, 2005 6:18 PM Author: Jade pisswyrm kinda a general celebration party, a few people got engaged, a few birthdays etc. So I figured something bubbly was in order, but I can't afford a case of champagne so ... (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=168309&forum_id=2#2593797) |
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Date: April 19th, 2005 6:21 PM Author: boyish death wish mood if you are only thinking of making kir royales and other champagne cocktails, isn't the quality of the sparkling wine kind of secondary? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=168309&forum_id=2#2593805) |
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Date: April 19th, 2005 6:21 PM Author: Jade pisswyrm well I want to be able to serve it plain too, there will be guys here as well. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=168309&forum_id=2#2593809) |
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Date: April 19th, 2005 6:21 PM Author: Brindle cruise ship ask the hemingway guys. maybe they'll get you a deal through their connections (although their stuff is kinda upscale). (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=168309&forum_id=2#2593808) |
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Date: April 19th, 2005 6:22 PM Author: Jade pisswyrm yeah that's a good idea ... I was thinking about going to binny's too, the manager there is very helpful. But I wanted to have a few ideas before I went in. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=168309&forum_id=2#2593813) |
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Date: April 19th, 2005 6:23 PM Author: Brindle cruise ship why cava? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=168309&forum_id=2#2593817) |
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Date: April 19th, 2005 6:25 PM Author: Jade pisswyrm it has bubbles and is cheap. God I really want a glass on wine btween this thread, that dinner thread and the fact I haven't had one since that last Hemingway tasting. |
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Date: April 19th, 2005 6:27 PM Author: Brindle cruise ship no kidding. grocery list amended. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=168309&forum_id=2#2593837) |
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Date: April 19th, 2005 6:27 PM Author: Jade pisswyrm ha ha I have some, I'm just not allowed. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=168309&forum_id=2#2593839) |
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Date: April 19th, 2005 6:29 PM Author: Brindle cruise ship because of bigelow? in vino veritas... (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=168309&forum_id=2#2593845) |
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Date: April 19th, 2005 6:31 PM Author: Jade pisswyrm yes because of bigelow. maybe in one glass, but if I open the bottle I'm pretty sure I'll drink it all. (I hate to waste money after all!) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=168309&forum_id=2#2593855) |
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Date: April 19th, 2005 6:29 PM Author: Titillating Unhinged Pervert There's this sparkling wine that's widely available in the US called "Gruet". It's kind of unusual in that it's made in New Mexico! I think this ($12/btl) is pretty close to a decent Champagne (meaning the real stuff from France).
A good Prosecco is "Zardetto", maybe $10.
Another fun wine is "Moscato d'Asti" which is sparkly and kinda sweet. It only has 5% alcohol. Sure, maybe not for every day (unless you drive a pink Beetle or something), but it's fun stuff. Good with a hangover, for instance. |
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Date: April 19th, 2005 6:30 PM Author: Brindle cruise ship i think asti tastes like soda. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=168309&forum_id=2#2593851) |
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Date: April 19th, 2005 6:32 PM Author: Jade pisswyrm yeah too sweet for me too. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=168309&forum_id=2#2593864) |
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Date: April 19th, 2005 6:36 PM Author: Titillating Unhinged Pervert You're sure you don't mean Asti Spumante? That's sort of like TTT Prosecco. Either way, your taste knows best.
Cheers. |
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Date: April 19th, 2005 6:37 PM Author: Jade pisswyrm that is what I meant. Not the same stuff you're recomending, I've never had that. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=168309&forum_id=2#2593895) |
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Date: April 19th, 2005 6:32 PM Author: Jade pisswyrm thanks for the suggestions! (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=168309&forum_id=2#2593865) |
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Date: April 19th, 2005 6:59 PM Author: Titillating Unhinged Pervert No problem. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=168309&forum_id=2#2593983) |
Date: April 19th, 2005 6:35 PM Author: Stirring Alcoholic Round Eye Faggotry What do you think of South African Pinotage? I'm having some tonight and it's excellent. Very funky! (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=168309&forum_id=2#2593880) |
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Date: April 19th, 2005 6:47 PM Author: Titillating Unhinged Pervert Yeah, Pinotage is pretty funky. But, it can be good. Maybe the best thing about it is that even people who are really into wine don't know what to make of it, so prices are reasonable - around $10-12. Even a really great one is only $20 or so.
It was developed especially to grow in South Africa's climate. It's a cross of Pinot Noir & Syrah/Shiraz. Back when the plant breeders or whoever did the crossbreeding, Syrah was called "Hermitage" because it's grown on this famous hill called Hermitage in the Rhone valley (S. France). So Pinot+Hermitage = Pinot-age. |
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Date: April 19th, 2005 6:51 PM Author: Stirring Alcoholic Round Eye Faggotry The gal at the store told me it was pinot noir and cinsault. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=168309&forum_id=2#2593956) |
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Date: April 19th, 2005 6:56 PM Author: boyish death wish mood you are correct. Plus Hermitage is also an AOC region, producing wines that are predominantly Syrah. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=168309&forum_id=2#2593973) |
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Date: April 19th, 2005 7:01 PM Author: Titillating Unhinged Pervert I see that you are also an "expert"! What do you drink over there at Havahd? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=168309&forum_id=2#2593994) |
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Date: April 19th, 2005 7:07 PM Author: boyish death wish mood whatever I can get my hands on, b/c I am poor. The last non-cheap wines I've had have been Pol Roger, Bollinger, and Billecart-Salmon champagnes, and a Chateau La Nerthe Chateauneuf-du-Pape.
But I'm not really an expert anyway, just a harvard douchebag. |
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Date: April 19th, 2005 9:32 PM Author: Titillating Unhinged Pervert Cool stuff. I haven't had the Billecart-Salmon. Any recollection of how good it was compared to the other 2?
I'm somewhat poor myself right now, since I'll be starting law school - with the attendant loans - in the fall. Still, I try to have a couple of decent wines like the ones you mention every month. My most recent "quality" wines have been Rieussec (thankfully, 1/2 bottles are 1/2 the price! and Clos du Caillou Cotes du Rhone.
If you're just douching around, you might enjoy this site: http://www.thewinedoctor.com/ which consists of a doctor's personal musings on wine. The notes and explanations are pretty extensive. It's one of the best on the web and is recommended by Parker, etc. |
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Date: April 19th, 2005 7:01 PM Author: Stirring Alcoholic Round Eye Faggotry AOC? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=168309&forum_id=2#2593998) |
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Date: April 19th, 2005 7:09 PM Author: boyish death wish mood Appellation d'Origine Controlee
and, yes, I had to look that up before I spelled it out.
Edit: more to the point, it's France's system of classifying certain wine regions (or I guess the highest level of the classification) - they impose restrictions on yield, viticulture methods, grapes planted, etc. I was just saying that Hermitage is actually an AOC wine-producing region, not just a hill. |
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Date: April 19th, 2005 7:11 PM Author: Lascivious startled corner Gambetti has no more knowledge of wine than google can provide her.
HTH. |
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Date: April 19th, 2005 7:15 PM Author: boyish death wish mood your description also applies to all my knowledge of anything. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=168309&forum_id=2#2594063) |
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Date: April 19th, 2005 9:49 PM Author: irradiated awkward old irish cottage I am an independent maker of "gonzo" style pornography. I am currently making an enema-fetish film, the theme being "Enemas of the States". I've got a milk enema for the wisconsin chick, budweiser for the missouri chick, orange juice for the florida chick, jack daniels for the kentucky chick and maple syrup for the vermont model. I've got two california girls so I figure a red wine for the one and some kind of sparkling wine for other, as white wine will not show up well on camera. Can you recommend wines that are particularly emblematic of california for this purpose?
PS if anyone knows of something that will get maple syrup off of drapes that would be helpful |
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Date: April 20th, 2005 2:03 AM Author: Titillating Unhinged Pervert No, actually I don't really want to support your work. I think pornography has an unsalutary effect on both its consumers and producers.
For anyone interested in getting a glimpse into the actual effects of the pornography business on peoples' lives, I highly recommend the Swedish film "ETT HÅL I MITT HJÄRTA" (A HOLE IN MY HEART), directed by Lukas Moodysson, who also did another great film about the industry, "Lilya 4 Ever". |
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Date: April 20th, 2005 3:29 AM Author: Claret balding toaster lodge http://www.xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=168577&mc=8&forum_id=2 (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=168309&forum_id=2#2597415) |
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Date: April 20th, 2005 2:07 AM Author: Greedy psychic blood rage Best wines from the following countries?:
Israel
Russia
Mexico
England
Denmark |
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Date: April 20th, 2005 2:28 AM Author: floppy cuckoldry On Russian wines, I suggest you try Kindzmarauli. It was Stalin's favorite wine. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=168309&forum_id=2#2597218) |
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Date: April 20th, 2005 3:20 AM Author: Deep Galvanic Menage Background Story The best Israeli wines are produced by the Golan Heights Winery. The best brand being the Yarden series, especially the Cabernet.
For a wine comparable to a top French wine, try the Yarden Katzrin. There are also a few very good small producers in the Judean Hills region. Check out the Domaine du Castel Grand Vin. |
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Date: April 20th, 2005 3:22 PM Author: Titillating Unhinged Pervert Israel - another poster has already mentioned the Yarden wines, which are the best I've had. Unfortunately they're also the most expensive ones ($20+). Unless you're involved in some kind of boycott, I would highly recommend a Lebanese wine "Chateau Musar" made by Gaston Hochar. It's probably the best wine made in this part of the world. Plus it's been made since at least the 70's in the midst of wars, etc., which is a real testament to the owner's dedication.
Russia - you would need a more "expert" person to tell you this. There are supposed to be some great sweet wines made in the Ukraine, but in general the quality of Russian & Soviet successor-state winemaking is TTT and aims for massive production of insipid stuff. However, this is beginning to improve as outside investment enters, and local winemakers travel abroad to study the latest techniques.
Mexico - again, I don't know. They're growing some good Petit Sirah, but the general verdict that I've heard is that it's simply too hot to produce "truly great" wines. Still, they should make some good $10-20 wines.
England - the best is Nyetimber, a sparkling wine. It has won some rave reviews in blind tastings, and the Brits are going to be serving it *instead* of "real" French Champagne when they hold the EU presidency this year. We'll see what happens.
Denmark - I don't know either. I did read that global warming should, if it progresses as expected, turn DK into a sWeeT winegrowing spot. But as far as I know, not yet. |
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Date: April 20th, 2005 5:26 PM Author: Greedy psychic blood rage Thanks, and nice work. I have two further questions -
-What's the best red wine from Oregon? Seems like Oregon growers have been getting better at their craft, and prices are going up.
-What's the best wine you know of from a non-traditional state for wine production? Or from a very non-traditional country? |
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Date: April 21st, 2005 1:16 AM Author: Titillating Unhinged Pervert Best Red from Oregon: producers here seem to have settled on Pinot Noir as the red grape that performs best. Two of the best producers (among many "rising stars", as you mention) are Archery Summit and Domaine Drouhin. Drouhin is kinda cool b/c it's owned by a French family who also make wine in their native Burgundy (same grape - Pinot Noir).
Best Wine from a Non-traditional State: Honestly, I've had some wines from VA. and MD. and they were almost TTT. Not quite, but close. For this category, I'd have to go back to the "Chateau Musar" from Lebanon which I mentioned a little earlier in this thread. A predominantly Muslim country in the middle of Syrian-Israeli conflict, and there's this winery right there. Pretty wacky.
Another wine from a somewhat obscure country is Tokaji, or Tokay. It's not well-known nowadays, but it was the coolest stuff available in the 1600's, when aristocrats like the king of Sweden would drink NOTHING ELSE! It's produced in Hungary and is expensive ($25-500, depending on quality level)and sweet. |
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Date: April 20th, 2005 3:27 AM Author: chestnut exciting shitlib institution What's the best wine that comes in a box? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=168309&forum_id=2#2597405) |
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Date: April 20th, 2005 3:27 PM Author: Titillating Unhinged Pervert Hmm... I don't actually drink much myself, but I would go for something from Australia. The cheap stuff from there is usually considerably better than cheap French wine, which can taste like "barnyard", meaning cow dung.
If you're simply interested in an inexpensive wine, I think that the Charles Shaw Cabernet Sauvignon (aka "2 Buck Chuck") which Trader Joe's sells for $2.99 is a good bet. It is made from excess grapes that couldn't be used by other wineries in CA. and compares favorably to $6-10 Cabs like "Clos du Bois" and "Lindeman's". Certainly not brilliant, but it tastes like it cost $10. Not bad for $3. |
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Date: April 20th, 2005 5:01 PM Author: Beady-eyed pistol Name 3 Super Tuscans that make you drool
Name 1 wine for under $30 that is nearly yummy as Ch. Latour
Name Best bordeaux for under $50 that does not taste hell a young oh and if you could name one for under $30 that would be cool. I guess nearly the same question as #2
( |
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Date: April 20th, 2005 6:53 PM Author: Titillating Unhinged Pervert 3 Super Tuscans: Villa Cafaggio "San Martino"; Antinori "Tignanello"; Livio Sasseti "Fili di Seta".
I have never had Latour. (What kind of an expert am I?!) But seriously, I decided at some point to set $50/btl. as a kind of price limit until I was finished with school. Really good wine is fairly addictive. Since I'm an 0L right now, I probably will stick to this until graduation. Of course, I pop over $50 now and then, but not up to $130 or so that you'd have to spend for a bargain Latour.
Best Bordeaux under $50 that doesn't taste too young:
You can avoid the "too young" harshness (and save some serious $$$) by buying Bordeaux from *good* but not *GREAT* vintages to drink right away. So skip the 2000's and go for 1998's, 1999's, 2001 & 2002's. There are many wines like this. Some of my favorites:
Poujeaux (Moulis-en-Medoc cru bourgeois) $18-24/btl Vieille Cure (Fronsac) $20-25/btl Gloria (St. Julien cru bourgeois) $24-28/btl Branaire-Ducru (St. Julien 4th growth) $27-33/btl Leoville Poyferre (St. Julien 2nd growth) $28-33/btl Grand Puy Lacoste (Pauillac 5th growth) $28-35/btl Sociando Mallet (Haut Medoc cru bourgeois) $27-35/btl Malescot St. Exupery (Margaux 3rd growth) $30-40/btl Pichon Baron (Pauillac 2nd growth) $35-45/btl
Among these, if your taste leans to the supple richness of the Super Tuscans, I would especially recommend Leoville Poyferre, Sociando Mallet and Pichon Baron. |
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Date: April 20th, 2005 5:28 PM Author: chestnut exciting shitlib institution Which fortified wine has the most convenient screw on cap? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=168309&forum_id=2#2600222) |
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Date: April 21st, 2005 1:20 AM Author: Titillating Unhinged Pervert Most of the non-vintage fortifieds have a little plastic cap with a cork stuck to it. I guess you'd call it a "plug". This is actually even more convenient than a screwcap, since you can just pull it out, take a swig, and then pop it back in, rather than laboriously turning a screwcap.
Again, if you're aiming for convenience, I'd go for a Port, since they're usually the highest in alcohol - 19-20%. |
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Date: April 20th, 2005 7:35 PM Author: mustard misanthropic school sound barrier Subject: easy question A nice Riesling for around $30, please? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=168309&forum_id=2#2600903) |
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Date: April 21st, 2005 1:42 AM Author: Titillating Unhinged Pervert I lived in Germany for a year, so I do love Riesling. Sadly, the prices are really jacked up by the importers, so a nice 15 euro one costs $30 here. Still, many real Experts say that Riesling is still, for the quality, a huge bargain. For a time in the 1800's the best German Rieslings actually sold for more than the best Bordeaux!
FYI, in Germany they tend to be sweeter; in Alsace drier.
Anyway, a couple of recommendations:
Alsatians - Barmes-Buecher "Hengst", Domaine Weinbach "Schlossberg" and "Theo". If you want to blow some money, Weinbach's "Cuvee Ste. Catherine L'Inedit!" is harvested late in November and is amazing. Since its picked so late, the wine is sweetish but very agile - more like a German Riesling.
Germans - Pauly Bergweiler (all the wines have a recognizable yellow label) "Wehlener Sonnenuhr", J.J. Prum "Wehlener Sonnenuhr", Dr. Thanisch "Bernkasteler Lay", Geheimrat Basserman-Jordan ""Deidesheimer Kieselberg".
The main thing with the Germans is to buy wine made by a good producer. As you can see, some of the vineyards are repeated, like "Wehlener Sonnenuhr". This is b/c it's one of the finest in Germany, and several producers own a part of it.
In addition to the vineyard, the Germans designate the ripeness of the grapes on their labels (they're organizationally obsessed). So if you see two wines that look the same - same producer, same vineyard, same year - then the more expensive one will inevitably be made from riper, better grapes. It will also be sweeter.
Sweetness:
Kabinett<Spätlese<Auslese<Beerenauslese<Trockenbeerenauslese |
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Date: April 21st, 2005 6:30 AM Author: avocado chest-beating half-breed Someone gave me a bottle from the "Premiere Napa Valley" auction (not very familiar with it) as a gift recently. Beaulieu Vineyard, 2002 Cabernet Sauvignon (Clone 6). Is this a good one? How long should I let it age? (The giver suggested 10 years.)
Also, do you know anything about Paso Robles wines? |
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Date: April 21st, 2005 8:08 PM Author: Titillating Unhinged Pervert Yes, this is a really good wine. It's worth at least $100-125, but the really cool thing about this wine is that it looks like only 5 cases are made each year! That means there are just 60 bottles in existence. I don't know about the quality of the 2002 in particular, but this wine is normally well-reviewed by the critics and should improve for at least 10-15 years. 2002 was a more "hit-or-miss" vintage than the generally excellent 2001, but nevertheless, it's a safe bet that this top of the line bottling is one of the "hits" of the 2002. If you are going to drink it in the next year or two, I'd decant it for an hour or two before serving.
The "Clone 6" refers to the fact that the wine is made from grapes grown from a single clone of Cabernet Sauvignon. Wine grapevines are always clones - that is, they're reproduced by taking cuttings and grafting them on to the roots of a hardier plant of the same family. This is the standard way of multiplying most fruit plants, though there are others. So they are all clones.
Now, how we get to clone "#6" is a little more interesting. As plants grow, sometimes they naturally mutate, for better or worse. In fruit plants, these mutations often occur only on a single branch. For instance, red Anjou pears come from such a mutation. For hundreds of years we had the standard green Anjou pear, and then there was a mutation - a branch appeared on one of the Anjou trees with red pears on it, while the rest of the tree kept merrily cranking out green ones. Since a red Anjou pear was a pretty novel thing, someone took a cutting from the "special" branch, and grafted it to another tree or rootstock. And after that was done many times, large-scale production of the red Anjou pears got under way. So likewise, the "Clone #6" is a unique mutation of Cabernet Sauvignon with characteristics that the winemaker must find particularly attractive. Maybe it has a thicker skin, which will produce a denser, longer-aging wine. Or maybe it ripens faster, or is less suceptible to drought, or maybe all of these things.
Paso Robles - I do know a guy who owns a vineyard there (I don't know him well), but that's about it.
Enjoy your wine! |
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Date: April 23rd, 2005 12:46 AM Author: avocado chest-beating half-breed Cool, thanks for the info. My uncle is a pretty well-regarded winemaker in Paso Robles. I'd love to learn everything he knows, but it's a long ways away (I'm in Michigan). (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=168309&forum_id=2#2615579) |
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Date: April 21st, 2005 12:38 PM Author: avocado chest-beating half-breed bump for the expert (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=168309&forum_id=2#2605446) |
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Date: April 23rd, 2005 12:46 AM Author: Twisted Stock Car What goes best with roofies? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=168309&forum_id=2#2615585) |