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Theaetetus: tried y'all's fucking neanderthalish wiping method

Where shall I begin? 1. Sat way forward on the seat. My...
scarlet hissy fit
  05/05/04
you wipe from the front? who even does that?
Provocative deer antler
  05/05/04
Apparently I'm the only person on this board. Who's willing...
scarlet hissy fit
  05/05/04
ok so
Provocative deer antler
  05/05/04
Both. Which is to say, I don't just wipe one way. I wipe f...
scarlet hissy fit
  05/05/04
do you ever
Provocative deer antler
  05/05/04
Only very rarely. Usually the head's hanging off to the opp...
scarlet hissy fit
  05/05/04
he has a small penis so cute
talented business firm yarmulke
  05/05/04
You should have applied for URM-status.
navy preventive strike mad-dog skullcap
  05/05/04
Let me get this straight, you shit with your junk outside th...
orchid school sound barrier
  05/05/04
No, they're not outside the toilet bowl.
scarlet hissy fit
  05/05/04
How the hell can you wipe like a woman if your junk is insid...
orchid school sound barrier
  05/05/04
Women aren't supposed to wipe from the front, due to the pos...
Dark Halford
  05/05/04
Correct. I'm confusing #1 wiping with #2 wiping. Even my...
orchid school sound barrier
  05/05/04
Okay, just checking. I didn't want the "women's way" to be ...
Dark Halford
  05/05/04
you ruin the pun by drawing attention to it.
Alcoholic church philosopher-king
  04/17/05
jnk is smal
talented business firm yarmulke
  05/05/04
A. How the hell could my junk be outside the toilet in any e...
scarlet hissy fit
  05/05/04
wow. I wouldn't be able to do it without lifting the packag...
orchid school sound barrier
  05/05/04
This sounds like a hell of a lot of work, why not just tuck ...
honey-headed glittery base goyim
  05/06/04
It's a hell of a lot less work than contorting my arm to go ...
scarlet hissy fit
  05/06/04
Please let this subject die. Thanks.
bisexual big fortuitous meteor
  05/05/04
On the contrary. It's a whole new category in the Hall of F...
scarlet hissy fit
  05/05/04
Oddly enough, its not.
bisexual big fortuitous meteor
  05/05/04
STFU. I hope your wife got pregnant, you dropped out of W...
irradiated crackhouse
  07/22/07
your just sad because you have a small ball and wiener, or w...
talented business firm yarmulke
  05/05/04
No way. This subject has been the highlight of my week.
excitant juggernaut hell
  05/06/04
good Lord.
drunken fragrant theater stage ape
  05/05/04
"JackDaniels and ice cream" Freudian, my dear Watson! ...
unhinged hospital
  05/05/04
>1. Sat way forward on the seat. My jewels felt very cramped...
Arousing kitchen
  05/05/04
this is just disgusting. When you stand up, the cheeks co...
orchid school sound barrier
  05/05/04
this is hilarious! hahaha
Spectacular garrison jap
  09/12/04
That is just absolutely the most disgusting thing ever to co...
scarlet hissy fit
  05/05/04
i dont have tremendous assflab. things work out swimingly fo...
Arousing kitchen
  05/05/04
Nor do I.
scarlet hissy fit
  05/05/04
Apparently you do.
multi-colored bearded gaping stead
  10/13/06
If you're fit, your asscheeks don't rub together. and if yo...
multi-colored bearded gaping stead
  10/13/06
TC, stand the fuck up like a man.
multi-colored bearded gaping stead
  10/13/06
Bump for the day crowd. And because I know Stabby doesn't w...
scarlet hissy fit
  05/06/04
Thea, do you pull your balls to the side with your left hand...
Cowardly background story
  05/06/04
If I need to, which isn't that often. Cf. yesterday's discu...
scarlet hissy fit
  05/06/04
Am I to understand that most guys wipe from the back? I d...
Topaz Lettuce
  05/06/04
No, most guys wipe from the back. That's how my mother taug...
Cowardly background story
  05/06/04
And do you pull your tp from the top or bottom? Perhaps the...
Topaz Lettuce
  05/06/04
I start off pulling up. (that's a bit of an aggressive way ...
Cowardly background story
  05/06/04
:) Thanks for the detail, but I was referring to the ...
Topaz Lettuce
  05/06/04
I actually usually say grundle or choade, but taint seems to...
Cowardly background story
  05/06/04
Never heard grundle. Choad was more common in grade school ...
Topaz Lettuce
  05/06/04
Are you talking about the gouche?
azure dopamine death wish
  04/21/05
Back by popular demand
Vibrant Brunch
  09/12/04
This could very well be one of the top-10 posts in pr/xoxo h...
puce titillating orchestra pit boistinker
  09/12/04
It sure is.
puce titillating orchestra pit boistinker
  04/17/05
*chuckle*
Lime Water Buffalo Giraffe
  02/11/05
bump
excitant juggernaut hell
  06/03/05
good bump
180 fluffy jewess
  06/03/05
bump for a classic
Exciting aqua range reading party
  07/18/06
10. And you know what? Maybe I do have a small cock. But giv...
motley onyx space
  07/21/06
Amen.
Exciting aqua range reading party
  10/13/06
comparison bump
Hairless razzle-dazzle tanning salon regret
  01/25/07
tyty for your compassion. this is indeed awesome
swashbuckling chocolate stage nibblets
  01/26/07
Vic stands up.
Adventurous Cuckoldry Cuck
  01/25/07
not been bumped in 6 months??
Supple Patrolman
  07/22/07
I stand up and exclusively use Huggies Natural Care wipes, a...
Misanthropic light piazza dog poop
  07/22/07
where have all the cowboys gone?
Supple Patrolman
  11/25/07
...
Ruddy Soul-stirring Lay Electric Furnace
  11/25/07
<3
dun cerebral locale haunted graveyard
  09/11/08


Poast new message in this thread





Date: May 5th, 2004 11:03 PM
Author: scarlet hissy fit

Where shall I begin?

1. Sat way forward on the seat. My jewels felt very cramped and uncomfortable. All you people who were whining about my method cuz your cock and balls got in the way are full of shit (no pun intended). No way you can have that problem with my method but not have them get in the way when you sit far enough forward to reach behind. Fucking liars.

2. Speaking of sitting far enough forward -- as noted above I was crowding the package, AND I have an elongated toilet seat (oval shaped instead of round), and I *still* didn't have enough room in the back to both get underneat *and* turn the angle to get to my asshole.

3. And once I did this, my arm was effectively trapped between the seat and a cheek. I had no freedom of movement whatsoever.

4. I will say this as a revision to my earlier criticism -- my asshole wasn't nearly as "far away" going this route as I thought it would be. I'll give you all that point. However ...

5. Because of the awkward angle and very small space to squeeze through, I still ended up having a harder time reaching it.

6. The wiping motion working from behind without being able to involve my whole arm in the process was very ineffective. I just knew I wasn't getting clean. And I wasn't. (See below.)

7. Given how little room for error there was going under with a clean set of paper, there was no fucking way I was bringing the soiled sheets back out for inspection. I had no choice but to drop them unseen into the bowl.

8. I tried twice more with no success and then finally gave up, scooted back, and went to work the CORRECT way. And guess what I found? Shit smeared all over the place, where I normally have none. Obviously, my wiping from behind did nothing but create a bigger mess.

9. Again, you people with the cock-and-ball objection have to be bullshitting. Sure, I'm not the most well-endowed guy on the planet, but I had absolutely no trouble at all accomodating my forearm to one side and getting all the work done that I had to do, with complete freedom of movement the entire time.

10. And you know what? Maybe I do have a small cock. But given that I'm married and plan to stay that way, I'd rather have a small cock and know my asshole is pristine, than a cock so big I have to live with a shit-encrusted asshole for all of my days. And I think any lady who'd choose the latter over the former is not the kind of lady I'd want to be fucking in the first place.



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=23417&forum_id=2#388260)





Date: May 5th, 2004 11:06 PM
Author: Provocative deer antler

you wipe from the front? who even does that?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=23417&forum_id=2#388290)





Date: May 5th, 2004 11:07 PM
Author: scarlet hissy fit

Apparently I'm the only person on this board. Who's willing to share, anyway.

And having tried the other way, I am more convinced than ever that I am right.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=23417&forum_id=2#388298)





Date: May 5th, 2004 11:08 PM
Author: Provocative deer antler
Subject: ok so

when you wipe with an arm from the front, do you start at the far end of the asshole or the near? that is to say do you start on the cockside or the backside?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=23417&forum_id=2#388310)





Date: May 5th, 2004 11:10 PM
Author: scarlet hissy fit

Both. Which is to say, I don't just wipe one way. I wipe forward, back, around, whatever. But all rather narrowly confined to the actual asshole area. No chance of contaminating either the balls, taint, or upper crack.

Of course, if there's been some splatter or splash, I'll venture out as necessary.



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=23417&forum_id=2#388326)





Date: May 5th, 2004 11:11 PM
Author: Provocative deer antler
Subject: do you ever

get a little post-pee on your forearm then?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=23417&forum_id=2#388337)





Date: May 5th, 2004 11:14 PM
Author: scarlet hissy fit

Only very rarely. Usually the head's hanging off to the opposite side.



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=23417&forum_id=2#388387)





Date: May 5th, 2004 11:12 PM
Author: talented business firm yarmulke

he has a small penis

so cute

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=23417&forum_id=2#388348)





Date: May 5th, 2004 11:11 PM
Author: navy preventive strike mad-dog skullcap

You should have applied for URM-status.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=23417&forum_id=2#388334)





Date: May 5th, 2004 11:08 PM
Author: orchid school sound barrier

Let me get this straight, you shit with your junk outside the toilet bowl and then wipe from the front?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=23417&forum_id=2#388302)





Date: May 5th, 2004 11:08 PM
Author: scarlet hissy fit

No, they're not outside the toilet bowl.



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=23417&forum_id=2#388311)





Date: May 5th, 2004 11:09 PM
Author: orchid school sound barrier

How the hell can you wipe like a woman if your junk is inside the toilet?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=23417&forum_id=2#388322)





Date: May 5th, 2004 11:12 PM
Author: Dark Halford

Women aren't supposed to wipe from the front, due to the possibility of... contamination, shall we say. One of the more awkward moments of sex ed is when my 7th grade science teacher articulated this for the class.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=23417&forum_id=2#388352)





Date: May 5th, 2004 11:13 PM
Author: orchid school sound barrier

Correct. I'm confusing #1 wiping with #2 wiping.

Even my wife wipes from the rear when shitting. And she's the most anal (why can't I stop with the bad puns)-retentive person in the world.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=23417&forum_id=2#388369)





Date: May 5th, 2004 11:15 PM
Author: Dark Halford

Okay, just checking. I didn't want the "women's way" to be unsanitary and have us all get a bad rap.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=23417&forum_id=2#388396)





Date: April 17th, 2005 9:28 PM
Author: Alcoholic church philosopher-king

you ruin the pun by drawing attention to it.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=23417&forum_id=2#2580780)





Date: May 5th, 2004 11:12 PM
Author: talented business firm yarmulke

jnk is smal

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=23417&forum_id=2#388358)





Date: May 5th, 2004 11:13 PM
Author: scarlet hissy fit

A. How the hell could my junk be outside the toilet in any event?

B. Apparently most women (who've been willing to share on this board) don't wipe this way either, unless it's just to dry off the vag after a tinkle.

C. As I've acknowledged in this thread and elsewhere, my junk does not take up the entire space from thigh to thigh when I'm sitting in the shitting position. (I spread my knees fairly widely -- in your basic public stall each knee is on the side wall.) My junk is located in the center and there is sufficient room between junk and thigh for a forearm to get past.



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=23417&forum_id=2#388360)





Date: May 5th, 2004 11:14 PM
Author: orchid school sound barrier

wow. I wouldn't be able to do it without lifting the package out of the way.

If it works, more power to you.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=23417&forum_id=2#388386)





Date: May 6th, 2004 10:34 AM
Author: honey-headed glittery base goyim

This sounds like a hell of a lot of work, why not just tuck your feet behind your head while you're at it? That would make the front entry much easier I would think.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=23417&forum_id=2#391537)





Date: May 6th, 2004 10:44 AM
Author: scarlet hissy fit

It's a hell of a lot less work than contorting my arm to go behind my back, under my ass and back up.



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=23417&forum_id=2#391643)





Date: May 5th, 2004 11:04 PM
Author: bisexual big fortuitous meteor

Please let this subject die.

Thanks.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=23417&forum_id=2#388270)





Date: May 5th, 2004 11:05 PM
Author: scarlet hissy fit

On the contrary. It's a whole new category in the Hall of Fame.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=23417&forum_id=2#388275)





Date: May 5th, 2004 11:06 PM
Author: bisexual big fortuitous meteor

Oddly enough, its not.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=23417&forum_id=2#388289)





Date: July 22nd, 2007 8:49 PM
Author: irradiated crackhouse

STFU.

I hope your wife got pregnant, you dropped out of WUSTL, and you died from 3rd degree burns.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=23417&forum_id=2#8422610)





Date: May 5th, 2004 11:08 PM
Author: talented business firm yarmulke

your just sad because you have a small ball and wiener, or whiner is more like it

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=23417&forum_id=2#388305)





Date: May 6th, 2004 10:18 AM
Author: excitant juggernaut hell

No way. This subject has been the highlight of my week.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=23417&forum_id=2#391415)





Date: May 5th, 2004 11:04 PM
Author: drunken fragrant theater stage ape

good Lord.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=23417&forum_id=2#388273)





Date: May 5th, 2004 11:05 PM
Author: unhinged hospital

"JackDaniels and ice cream"

Freudian, my dear Watson!

**PS: I will pray for your wife.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=23417&forum_id=2#388281)





Date: May 5th, 2004 11:14 PM
Author: Arousing kitchen

>1. Sat way forward on the seat. My jewels felt very cramped and uncomfortable.

this is where things fall apart for you. you dont wipe sitting down. you STAND UP.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=23417&forum_id=2#388377)





Date: May 5th, 2004 11:15 PM
Author: orchid school sound barrier

this is just disgusting.

When you stand up, the cheeks come together and it smears all over the place.

You grab the paper, lift ass slightly and wipe.

Personally, I like to follow up the paper wiping with a gentle, refreshing baby wipe.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=23417&forum_id=2#388394)





Date: September 12th, 2004 9:53 PM
Author: Spectacular garrison jap

this is hilarious! hahaha

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=23417&forum_id=2#1328505)





Date: May 5th, 2004 11:16 PM
Author: scarlet hissy fit

That is just absolutely the most disgusting thing ever to contemplate. The only thing worse than having a dirty asshole is having an entire dirty ass crack because you stood up and let your cheeks rub together and smear it everywhere.

Check out the day threads on this -- standers are the next minority group after me.



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=23417&forum_id=2#388403)





Date: May 5th, 2004 11:26 PM
Author: Arousing kitchen

i dont have tremendous assflab. things work out swimingly for me.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=23417&forum_id=2#388523)





Date: May 5th, 2004 11:33 PM
Author: scarlet hissy fit

Nor do I.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=23417&forum_id=2#388594)





Date: October 13th, 2006 8:16 AM
Author: multi-colored bearded gaping stead

Apparently you do.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=23417&forum_id=2#6780461)





Date: October 13th, 2006 8:15 AM
Author: multi-colored bearded gaping stead

If you're fit, your asscheeks don't rub together. and if you wipe properly, you end up completely clean either way.

Bottom line, you can't really hit it all well sitting down like a little girl, and why would you want to?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=23417&forum_id=2#6780460)





Date: October 13th, 2006 8:13 AM
Author: multi-colored bearded gaping stead

TC, stand the fuck up like a man.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=23417&forum_id=2#6780456)





Date: May 6th, 2004 10:07 AM
Author: scarlet hissy fit

Bump for the day crowd. And because I know Stabby doesn't want it to fade away just yet.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=23417&forum_id=2#391347)





Date: May 6th, 2004 10:08 AM
Author: Cowardly background story

Thea, do you pull your balls to the side with your left hand? Assuming you're a righty?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=23417&forum_id=2#391361)





Date: May 6th, 2004 10:12 AM
Author: scarlet hissy fit

If I need to, which isn't that often. Cf. yesterday's discussion of ball retraction for temperature control.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=23417&forum_id=2#391382)





Date: May 6th, 2004 10:36 AM
Author: Topaz Lettuce

Am I to understand that most guys wipe from the back?

I doubt this since most guys learn to wipe from there mothers.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=23417&forum_id=2#391569)





Date: May 6th, 2004 10:48 AM
Author: Cowardly background story

No, most guys wipe from the back. That's how my mother taught me. Women shit, you know. They don't just piss. The front wipe is only to dry off the muffslot. They wipe from behind when shitting.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=23417&forum_id=2#391682)





Date: May 6th, 2004 10:52 AM
Author: Topaz Lettuce

And do you pull your tp from the top or bottom? Perhaps there's a correlation here in the teaching of mom's.

I've always enjoyed the feeling of running my forearm along my hog while preparing to wipe.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=23417&forum_id=2#391738)





Date: May 6th, 2004 10:54 AM
Author: Cowardly background story

I start off pulling up. (that's a bit of an aggressive way to describe it, but it's the easiest).

After a few ups, and when I feel clean, I'll push down, then it depends on the situation. Sometimes another few ups are needed, followed by a few down... just depends. But I'd say I'm typically a puller upper... taint to tailbone.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=23417&forum_id=2#391757)





Date: May 6th, 2004 10:56 AM
Author: Topaz Lettuce

:)

Thanks for the detail, but I was referring to the tp off the roll.

'Taint? Where I live, Banus and Nacho are the more prevalent terms.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=23417&forum_id=2#391777)





Date: May 6th, 2004 10:56 AM
Author: Cowardly background story

I actually usually say grundle or choade, but taint seems to get tossed around on the board.

as for the roll, the tp hangs over the front of the roll. so I guess i pull from the top?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=23417&forum_id=2#391784)





Date: May 6th, 2004 10:59 AM
Author: Topaz Lettuce

Never heard grundle. Choad was more common in grade school than now. 'Taint is what my dad called it. He's pretty old school, so I know that term goes at least back to the 40s and 50s.

Just as a point of science, I grew up pulling from the bottom. I bet I could get an NSF grant to study this correlation as a sociology experiment.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=23417&forum_id=2#391812)





Date: April 21st, 2005 11:06 PM
Author: azure dopamine death wish

Are you talking about the gouche?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=23417&forum_id=2#2608832)





Date: September 12th, 2004 8:50 PM
Author: Vibrant Brunch

Back by popular demand

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=23417&forum_id=2#1328229)





Date: September 12th, 2004 9:09 PM
Author: puce titillating orchestra pit boistinker

This could very well be one of the top-10 posts in pr/xoxo history.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=23417&forum_id=2#1328345)





Date: April 17th, 2005 9:30 PM
Author: puce titillating orchestra pit boistinker

It sure is.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=23417&forum_id=2#2580791)





Date: February 11th, 2005 10:20 AM
Author: Lime Water Buffalo Giraffe

*chuckle*

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=23417&forum_id=2#2108109)





Date: June 3rd, 2005 1:23 PM
Author: excitant juggernaut hell

bump

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=23417&forum_id=2#2921447)





Date: June 3rd, 2005 1:24 PM
Author: 180 fluffy jewess

good bump

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=23417&forum_id=2#2921454)





Date: July 18th, 2006 11:28 PM
Author: Exciting aqua range reading party

bump for a classic

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=23417&forum_id=2#6245982)





Date: July 21st, 2006 4:17 PM
Author: motley onyx space

10. And you know what? Maybe I do have a small cock. But given that I'm married and plan to stay that way, I'd rather have a small cock and know my asshole is pristine, than a cock so big I have to live with a shit-encrusted asshole for all of my days. And I think any lady who'd choose the latter over the former is not the kind of lady I'd want to be fucking in the first place.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=23417&forum_id=2#6268199)





Date: October 13th, 2006 1:24 AM
Author: Exciting aqua range reading party

Amen.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=23417&forum_id=2#6779649)





Date: January 25th, 2007 11:30 PM
Author: Hairless razzle-dazzle tanning salon regret

comparison bump

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=23417&forum_id=2#7486574)





Date: January 26th, 2007 12:17 AM
Author: swashbuckling chocolate stage nibblets

tyty for your compassion.

this is indeed awesome

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=23417&forum_id=2#7486780)





Date: January 25th, 2007 11:41 PM
Author: Adventurous Cuckoldry Cuck

Vic stands up.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=23417&forum_id=2#7486630)





Date: July 22nd, 2007 7:35 PM
Author: Supple Patrolman

not been bumped in 6 months??

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=23417&forum_id=2#8422296)





Date: July 22nd, 2007 8:56 PM
Author: Misanthropic light piazza dog poop

I stand up and exclusively use Huggies Natural Care wipes, and I get my whole hole and crack immaculate. I can't imagine anyone doing this another way. There is no way I'm sticking my hand in a fucking toilet...especially if I'm at work.

That said, is carrying around a bunch of wipes at all time a bother? Yes, but it's a small price to pay for a clean ass.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=23417&forum_id=2#8422634)





Date: November 25th, 2007 8:49 PM
Author: Supple Patrolman

where have all the cowboys gone?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=23417&forum_id=2#8936384)





Date: November 25th, 2007 11:21 PM
Author: Ruddy Soul-stirring Lay Electric Furnace



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=23417&forum_id=2#8937214)





Date: September 11th, 2008 4:13 PM
Author: dun cerebral locale haunted graveyard

<3

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=23417&forum_id=2#10149737)