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Who is choosing between Sullivan, Cravath, and Davis?
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Date: October 25th, 2005 8:43 PM Author: spruce heaven death wish For the record, I don't believe mumbo jumbo about Davis being nice or whatever. Just trying to figure out which is the best fit for me.
Are there material difference in exit opportunities or training at any of these? Face time? Hours? |
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Date: October 25th, 2005 8:46 PM Author: odious crawly forum go to cravath since you're a prestige whore (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=285708&forum_id=2#4135932) |
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Date: October 25th, 2005 8:49 PM Author: Drab cerebral potus liquid oxygen whatever, just pick a firm. you say you don't believe "mumbo jumbo" about davis being nice, but somehow you do believe "mumbo jumbo" about finding the "best fit"? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=285708&forum_id=2#4135949) |
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Date: October 25th, 2005 8:53 PM Author: splenetic cuckold stain i like this reply (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=285708&forum_id=2#4135998) |
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Date: October 25th, 2005 9:24 PM Author: Carmine casino 175 (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=285708&forum_id=2#4136318) |
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Date: October 25th, 2005 11:29 PM Author: tan piazza ladyboy I disagree with this.
Sullivan is definitely more formal, a more homogenous environment, than Cravath, which is more dynamic, more heterogenous. The rotation system at Cravath isn't for everyone -- 12 months into a rotation, when you finally learn to play the game, you get dinged and go to a new group. Etc.
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Date: October 25th, 2005 11:49 PM Author: Dashing Wine Dragon Hmm, from the limited interaction I've had with people at both firms, I don't buy it. I'd wager that the enivronments are roughly the same; the Cravath people seemed more energetic and aggressive, whereas Sullivan folks seemed reserved, but in terms of heterogeneity I don't see a difference, and they both are likely very dynamic given the level of work. The formal dress code at Cravath likely makes things seem more homogenous if anything, although that is a minor quibble. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=285708&forum_id=2#4138052) |
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Date: October 25th, 2005 11:37 PM Author: Cyan godawful deer antler I'm having similar problems as OP. The problem is that the "nicer" stuff just doesn't seem legitimate. I just don't buy that its going to be any less intense. According to an associate I interviewed with, when the DPW partners chew you out, they use "nicer words" than when the CSM people chew you out.
That and $2.00 buys me a ride on the subway at 3 am after my day of due dilligence whoring. |
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Date: October 25th, 2005 8:50 PM Author: Dashing Wine Dragon If you believe AmLaw then Cravath is more like Wachtell hours (70/week) while Davis and S&C are more normal (60/week).
Exits probably roughly the same, but it depends on your clients.
Training, obviously Cravath has their own system, Davis does a less hardcore rotation like thing, S&C doesn't assign you to a group for 2 years or so.
Cravath is better for litigation, and probably has better support staff. S&C does more international work than the others it seems.
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Date: October 25th, 2005 11:40 PM Author: Cyan godawful deer antler yea, the AmLaw thing is the one thing that is making me seriously consider Davis (if I even get an offer). That seems like a legit difference.
The associates all wanted to make sure that I knew that I could "still occasionaly have drinks with your friends" at Davis. This was a big deal. Sad. |
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Date: October 26th, 2005 7:11 PM Author: startled fuchsia brunch It is a big deal, given the firms you're comparing to. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=285708&forum_id=2#4143053) |
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Date: October 26th, 2005 7:13 PM Author: Cyan godawful deer antler I like how people really want to believe this. Bottom line is when I asked the Davis people directly, they all admitted to no longer being in contact with their friends from law school. They became defensive and said that "this is because people at other firms don't have any tiem because they work more" - but I just don't buy that. There are problems with the "nicer" image - seems very passive agressive there. I certainly wouldn't go there over a superior firm because of it. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=285708&forum_id=2#4143086) |
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Date: October 26th, 2005 8:16 PM Author: Drab cerebral potus liquid oxygen How do you measure a "superior" firm? Vault 2 instead of Vault 4? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=285708&forum_id=2#4143800) |
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Date: October 27th, 2005 5:25 PM Author: Cyan godawful deer antler no idea what I mean, really, I was just saying that I don't think this difference is significant enough to give it a boost over the other two.
CSM is technically more prestigious than the others, i don't think anyone would really argue with that. |
Date: October 25th, 2005 8:54 PM Author: insane internal respiration It depends what you want to do. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=285708&forum_id=2#4136003) |
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Date: October 25th, 2005 8:55 PM Author: sick french chef macaca Wow. Deep man. Really deep. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=285708&forum_id=2#4136011) |
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Date: October 25th, 2005 9:21 PM Author: startled fuchsia brunch It also depends on what firm you want to go to. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=285708&forum_id=2#4136282) |
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Date: October 25th, 2005 9:34 PM Author: fiercely-loyal private investor scourge upon the earth It also depends on which firm has the best "fit." (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=285708&forum_id=2#4136423) |
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Date: October 25th, 2005 9:36 PM Author: Autistic prole boltzmann It also depends on which firm has the best "pro bono policies." (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=285708&forum_id=2#4136447) |
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Date: October 25th, 2005 9:39 PM Author: Mind-boggling library pro bono is a fucking joke. Every time someone tells me that a firm has a "great pro bono policy" I feel like kicking their ass. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=285708&forum_id=2#4136467) |
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Date: October 25th, 2005 11:33 PM Author: Cyan godawful deer antler yea, i've had similar feelings. At the callbacks the lawyers can tell that I'm serious about working hard, so they don't even bring it up the "pro bono opportunities".
S+C goes on and on about how they hire a "full time fellow" to just do pro bono. Obviously, my thought is - this is so the normal associates don't have to do any pro bono! |
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Date: October 26th, 2005 12:40 PM Author: bisexual nursing home keepsake machete wrong. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=285708&forum_id=2#4140572) |
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Date: October 26th, 2005 10:02 PM Author: insane internal respiration It may not be deep, but it is the right answer. All three firms are at the same level in general, but each has strengths and weakness relative to one another. If you want to do something that Davis does best, it makes no sense to go to Cravath because it's Vault ranking is trivially higher. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=285708&forum_id=2#4144638) |
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Date: October 26th, 2005 10:08 PM Author: Cyan godawful deer antler Well, the problem is that while Cravath may be "better" than Davis in certain areas, the difference is very very small and provides very little tangible difference for the typical associate who leaves after 2 or 4 years as far as exit options or training. So this is where all the "davis is nicer" and "S+C is more international" talk becomes important. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=285708&forum_id=2#4144680) |
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Date: October 26th, 2005 10:18 PM Author: insane internal respiration There are meaningful differences between different practice areas at these firms. The problem might be that you really don't know what you want to do, in which case I would cross Cravath off the list and then decide based on whether you want to work downtown or in midtown. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=285708&forum_id=2#4144760) |
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Date: October 26th, 2005 10:21 PM Author: Drab cerebral potus liquid oxygen that's actually surprisingly good advice. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=285708&forum_id=2#4144797) |
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Date: October 27th, 2005 5:30 PM Author: Cyan godawful deer antler hmm, help me with this point. Wouldn't it make more sense to go to CSM if I hadn't a clue what I wanted to do? They seem to do everything, and the rotation system means you never have to decide anything except corp or litigation.
I don't really get the differences, beyond the international stuff. Yea, S+C is marginally better at securities, and CSM is marginally better in general corporate stuff, both of which are marginally better than DPW, but i underline "marginally" with bold.
S+C guy told me that it was important that S+C gives associates their own printer. is this really the only way i can distinguish? |
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Date: October 25th, 2005 11:53 PM Author: Cyan godawful deer antler My analysis:
Sullivan - stuffy
Cravath - arrogant
Davis - fake nice.
So basically, we are choosing between stuffy, arrogant, or fake.
Good luck! |
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Date: October 25th, 2005 11:53 PM Author: Dashing Wine Dragon this is pretty much on point from what i can tell (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=285708&forum_id=2#4138107) |
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Date: October 26th, 2005 5:40 PM Author: Ultramarine gunner When you're working seven days a week with these people, stuffy > fake nice >>>>>> arrogant (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=285708&forum_id=2#4142314) |
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Date: October 26th, 2005 7:17 PM Author: Cyan godawful deer antler i think they are all irrellevant, and since C and S+C technically speaking have "more prestigious" partners than DPW, then the decision is whether or not you like C's permanent rotation system or S+C's temporary rotation system. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=285708&forum_id=2#4143118) |
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Date: October 26th, 2005 6:04 PM Author: Lake pontificating plaza among (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=285708&forum_id=2#4142461) |
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Date: October 26th, 2005 6:45 PM Author: Vibrant maize skinny woman circlehead Subject: DPW isn't fake nice They are actually, in general, very decent and interesting people. Firm culture is a very real phenomenon, and it isn't something that you can just create out of whole cloth.
Trust me on this one. |
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Date: October 26th, 2005 7:02 PM Author: Frisky Toilet Seat Boiling Water And Davis does reputedly make offers to a much lower percentage than other BIGLAW firms in New York. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=285708&forum_id=2#4142944) |
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Date: October 26th, 2005 7:20 PM Author: Cyan godawful deer antler explain to me why this matters? perhaps its more "prestigious" - but if we are going on that, CSM pwns all. I don't think it makes DPW a better place to work. I also don't think it is true that it is more selective at HLS, but that is an other matter. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=285708&forum_id=2#4143161) |
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Date: October 27th, 2005 5:09 PM Author: Puce Trip Depressive Shitlib maybe he was saying that since everyone knows it's a better place to work, they have a higher yield than seemingly more prestigious places (cravath). and maybe he was using this idea as evidence of them actually being nicer. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=285708&forum_id=2#4150906) |
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Date: October 27th, 2005 5:32 PM Author: Cyan godawful deer antler well, it doesn't have a higher yield between offers and acceptances than Cravath at HLS, so this is just wrong and useless.
Even if it were true, maybe it just means that everyone thought it was nicer. 50% still leave after 2 years, or so I'm told. |
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Date: October 26th, 2005 7:08 PM Author: Cyan godawful deer antler Except they occasionally forget to pay associates bonuses.
Pretty much condemns the "nicer" theory in my book. All firms have nice partners and asshole partners. No firm of 500 people is going to have all nice people. |
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Date: October 26th, 2005 7:09 PM Author: sienna impressive dingle berry trailer park They "remembered" in plenty of time to pay their associates market bonuses. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=285708&forum_id=2#4143035) |
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Date: October 26th, 2005 7:13 PM Author: Ruby Beady-eyed Jew Parlour after "nicer" firms like cravath and s&c decided to pay bonuses of their own accord, exposing dpw as a ttt. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=285708&forum_id=2#4143084) |
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Date: October 26th, 2005 7:15 PM Author: Cyan godawful deer antler DPW is a follower in terms of compensation. They are also notoriously cheap as far as dinners / lunchs and other expenses.
The "nicer" thing means they don't yell at you as much. This doesn't mean they actually like you more. |
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Date: October 26th, 2005 7:16 PM Author: Ruby Beady-eyed Jew Parlour nice to me is setting the market bonus at 30K. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=285708&forum_id=2#4143113) |
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Date: October 26th, 2005 8:06 PM Author: Vibrant maize skinny woman circlehead Subject: well, nothing comes for free I agree that DPW is may be somewhat tighter about expenses than other firms. For instance, during the summer you have a $70 per person limit per meal, whereas at some other firms, the limit just might be a "reasonable" amount.
Oh, and Wachtell has free sodas where at DPW you have to buy them (although you often get them free).
The point is, are the free drinks and snacks or the marginally higher meal maximums (is $70 per person "cheap"?) worth all the extra shit you have to take as a CSM/S&C associate? For me, I'd rather work in a much more pleasant place and pay for my own Cokes. And it IS more pleasant.
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Date: October 26th, 2005 8:17 PM Author: Cyan godawful deer antler It is only "more pleasant" if you like a fake nice environment. There are plenty of people who leave DPW after two years, too, and the people who stay seem to all be very fake nice. If you aren't fake nice, it may be very difficult to fit in there. I don't know wha this "extra shit" at CSM/S&C is really, you still get chewed out at all three, DPW just uses nicer words, apparently. If you are one of those people that thinks that fake nice is just a way to pay people less and give them shittier work, then this is actually a bad thing. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=285708&forum_id=2#4143806) |
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Date: October 26th, 2005 8:25 PM Author: Vibrant maize skinny woman circlehead Subject: what do you mean by "fake nice?" That they act nice, but deep down aren't really nice? And what difference does it make if its real or fake, as long as people treat you with consideration and decency, which in my experience they do? Also, of course people leave, but it's usually not because they hate the firm, but because they want to do a different kind of work. From what I've seen, most people who leave maintain a good opinion of the firm and keep a good relationship with the people who stay. In fact, they get a lot of business that way... What kind of experience do you have with DPW, anyway? I know what I'm talking about, since I've actually worked there. Have you? |
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Date: October 26th, 2005 8:43 PM Author: Drab cerebral potus liquid oxygen PrestigeWhore likes to pretend he's got it all figured out, and he doesn't even have an offer yet. He's just recycling conventional wisdom. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=285708&forum_id=2#4144049) |
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Date: October 26th, 2005 9:59 PM Author: Cyan godawful deer antler like you have a clue what offers i have or don't have.
I am recycling much of the propoganda that has been given to me by the three firms. The conventional wisdom is that davis is nicer. I'm saying I don't agree with that. So how, exactly, am I recycling conventional wisdom? |
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Date: October 26th, 2005 10:05 PM Author: Drab cerebral potus liquid oxygen you mentioned above that you don't have an offer from davis yet. that's all.
conventional wisdom #1 is that davis is "nice." conventional wisdom #2 is that davis is "fake nice." there always has to be a rebuttal to CW #1. |
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Date: October 26th, 2005 10:13 PM Author: Cyan godawful deer antler Well, ok, fine. that is the point that we are discussing - and there are only really two sides. Some say davis is nice. I'm saying, well, maybe it isn't. I'm admit i'm not adding any "new" point of view, I don't even know what that would be - that it is kinda nice sometimes?
I'm trying to choose between these three, and I'm pretty confident i'm getting an offer, and if the best that Davis trolls can come up with is that they are nicer, i'm going to the firms with the better bonus system, aren't notoriously cheap on expenses, and have more (even if slight) highly regarded work. |
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Date: October 26th, 2005 10:19 PM Author: Drab cerebral potus liquid oxygen "i'm going to the firms with the better bonus system, aren't notoriously cheap on expenses, and have more (even if slight) highly regarded work."
go to wachtell. |
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Date: October 26th, 2005 10:32 PM Author: Cyan godawful deer antler thanks for making me want to kill myself. DIIIIIIIIING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I am not bitter though. I didn't deserve that job. |
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Date: October 26th, 2005 9:57 PM Author: Cyan godawful deer antler No, I am a 2L with offers from S+C and CSM, and am fairly confident after my callback that I will get an offer at davis, and am trying to distinguish between those three. Some associates definitely believe, as you do, that davis is "nicer" than other firms, but there are others I have spoken to who said it wasn't any different from any other firm. So, I guess my feel is that you either buy it or you don't buy it, because there are very few people that end up working at more than one of these firms, so they have no means of comparison and their view is based purely on the fact that they liked their job. There are a lot of people at S+C and CSM that like their jobs, too, and think that they have a much better QOL than davis people. So the value of someone say "I worked there and it was great" is fairly low to me at this point. You talk about all the "Extra shit" that CSM and S+C associates have to deal with, and this makes up for the fact that Davis is cheap on bonuses. What are you basing this on? personal experience? Did you work at both those firms before DPW? If not, than by your own theory, you have no idea what you are talking about.
You obviously hold a high value on the culture aspects. I respect that. I just don't think it makes that big of a difference to me whether partners use nice words or not so nice words when they chew out my work, which is how one 6-year associate described the difference. For some people that is immensely important, for me, not so much.
Also, I don't believe that the lawyers at DPW are more "decent" than those at S+C or CSM, which is what you suggested in your OP. I just haven't seen that in my callbacks, and that is all I have to go on. |
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Date: October 27th, 2005 4:50 PM Author: Vibrant maize skinny woman circlehead Subject: Actually, I did work at S&C before going to DPW... albeit as a paralegal, and only for a few weeks. Nevertheless, I got a sense, from that experience alone, what a few of the associates were like, and they were absolute cocks. One guy, after asking me where I went to undergrad (a Midwestern state school) made some snotty, ignorant comment about "Oh, didn't they just outlaw teaching evolution there?" One thing about DPW is, they generally treat everyone with respect there, not just people higher up than you. And if they hear that someone has been treating the paralegals/staff like shit, they will not take that well. Also, the person who interviewed me for S&C came off as really fratty-arrogant and pretentious. He basically talked about baseball almost the whole time, and pronounced S&C with a Thurston Howell-ish "Long Island lockjaw." Not the type of guy I'd want to work with. As for CSM, you're right, I don't know that much about it.
But, my opinion about "taking more shit" just comes from conventional wisdom about the firms + common sense. Everyone knows that there's no such thing as a free lunch. In terms of law firms, that means that if CSM or S&C give you more free shit (or in other words are less "cheap") or bigger bonuses (which DPW has always matched, if not taken the lead on), they are not doing it out of the kindness of their hearts. They are doing it bc they are making, say, 10X as much money off you as they are giving you. So for every $20 of free Cokes, you are doing another late-night $200 billable hour that you wouldn't have done if you bought it from a vending machine at DPW. I'm totally pulling this example out of my ass, but the point is, in general, law firms are money-making enterprises and (at least within the same market/size/prestige level) no firm is going to give you more money/perks without taking something in return. My sense is, that at DPW, you get marginally less compensation in the form of "perks" in return for a lot less ass-raping during your actual working hours (not just chewing you out in "nicer words," but an actual consideration for your life outside of work). That trade-off is definitely worth it for me.
As far as bonuses go, DPW pays lock-step bonuses, and apparently always matches the market. So if you are an "eat-what-you-kill" type, I can see how this would be less attractive, but for most people, it's nice not to have to be worrying about competing with the gunners for the rest of your career. That's why I feel DPW has a more cooperative culture and people actually have lives outside of work.
That said, DPW is not for everyone, and they tend to choose people who they think will fit in to the culture. If you don't really value what they would offer you as an associate, who knows, maybe you won't get an offer anyway...
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Date: October 27th, 2005 4:56 PM Author: hyperactive organic girlfriend blood rage Cravath and S&C play purely lockstep bonuses as well. Cravath's partnership is also lockstep, don't remember if S&C is. Point being, none of these firms are eat what you kill, all have the same firm culture advantages that come with that (i.e., not competitive with your fellow associates). (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=285708&forum_id=2#4150821) |
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Date: October 27th, 2005 4:56 PM Author: Cyan godawful deer antler got the offer today, so obviously your last point is total utter bullshit elitist nonsense. They are grade/school whores like every other fucking firm.
The other points are valid, though. Thanks for taking the time to write a real response to my flames. Right now, I have no idea which place I will choose. |
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Date: October 27th, 2005 5:03 PM Author: Vibrant maize skinny woman circlehead Look, I wasn't saying that stuff about you getting an offer to be mean. I really meant it. From all I heard, DPW puts an extraordinary amount of effort into their selection process. If you came off in your interview like "Well, it seems like a great place to work and all, but isn't this niceness all an act? And I'm worried about the summer associate lunch maximum...", then I really don't think they'd want you. All firms, not just DPW, try to make offers to people who are going to come and who will be happy there. I think S&C and DPW each appeal to very different kinds of people, so I'd be willing to bet that there's a significant # of people who get offers at one and not the other.
That being said, seriously, congrats on your offer. |
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Date: October 27th, 2005 5:14 PM Author: Cyan godawful deer antler yea, sorry, i'm just frustrated with the whole process, and I come to XOXO to take it out on posters. Its just - this whole thing is so gamable. Yea, if i explicitly say "I don't buy the culture bullshit propoganda you are putting out" at DPW or I go to CSM and say "you know, I don't think associates have to work 6 days a week in order to become the best lawyers they can be" - obviously I am going to get the DING. But if I show up and tell them what they want to here, I get rewarded. It isn't really about who "fits" better - its about who can game the system.
I admit, though, that some applicants are totally unable to fake it at these interviews, but the irony is that for them the process leads them in the right direction because they get DINGed from the firms they wouldn't fit in at.
sigh. |
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Date: October 27th, 2005 5:22 PM Author: Walnut spectacular menage community account Good observation. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=285708&forum_id=2#4151013) |
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Date: October 27th, 2005 12:19 AM Author: Maroon dilemma party of the first part i feel lame pointing this out, but it's a pet peeve of mine... when there are two choices, you use the word "between"; when there are three or more choices, you have to use the word "among." so you are choosing among the three firms, not between three firms. as for my opinion, i'd go with s&c, davis, and cravath, in that order. |
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Date: October 27th, 2005 12:21 AM Author: Cyan godawful deer antler given how annoying i find this post, I guess i'm going to be terrible with criticism when some 6 year who is like you starts critiquing my TTT work. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=285708&forum_id=2#4146349) |