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Why is it T14
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Date: January 24th, 2006 2:15 AM Author: Contagious temple messiness I am sure this has been discussed many times, but I'm too lazy to do a thread search.
Why those 14 schools? IS there that discernable of a difference between G'Town and UT or UCLA?
I've also seen rankings divided within the T14, what's that all about? Like T6, T10, etc. |
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Date: January 24th, 2006 2:16 AM Author: out-of-control jet lodge because nothing in texas has ever been prestigious (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=345352&forum_id=2#4898644) |
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Date: January 24th, 2006 2:17 AM Author: Motley weed whacker that, and no one wants to recognize ucla's superiority to boalt despite better lsat and bar passage #s. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=345352&forum_id=2#4898652) |
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Date: January 24th, 2006 2:16 AM Author: peach sexy home potus All of the T14 schools, and only the T14 schools, have been in the USNEWS T10 at least once. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=345352&forum_id=2#4898647) |
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Date: January 24th, 2006 2:17 AM Author: Contagious temple messiness You serious? I thought G'Town had been entrenched in that 14th spot since the dawning of time (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=345352&forum_id=2#4898659) |
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Date: January 24th, 2006 2:18 AM Author: peach sexy home potus apparently not (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=345352&forum_id=2#4898666) |
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Date: January 24th, 2006 12:36 PM Author: Chestnut cracking set See: http://www.pichut.org/up/USNews%20(1987-2006).JPG (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=345352&forum_id=2#4900379) |
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Date: January 24th, 2006 2:17 AM Author: appetizing institution codepig there is a gigantic gap in career placement between gulc and texas. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=345352&forum_id=2#4898662) |
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Date: January 24th, 2006 2:19 AM Author: Contagious temple messiness This may be dumb, but we are talking national scale, right? Like GULC will place better nationally? Texas would still have the edge in their market? Or is the merit of T14 (including GULC) that it will place just as well in the respective markets of any non T-14? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=345352&forum_id=2#4898681) |
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Date: January 24th, 2006 2:33 AM Author: appetizing institution codepig yes, gulc would place better in texas than UT. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=345352&forum_id=2#4898777) |
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Date: January 24th, 2006 2:56 AM Author: vigorous dragon stock car you are clearly an idiot. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=345352&forum_id=2#4898902) |
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Date: January 24th, 2006 11:23 AM Author: flushed boiling water windowlicker dood, he's right. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=345352&forum_id=2#4899907) |
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Date: January 24th, 2006 11:24 AM Author: translucent sex offender private investor it is b/c they are state schools, and not on the east coast. east coast bias. HTH (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=345352&forum_id=2#4899914) |
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Date: January 24th, 2006 4:16 PM Author: maniacal idea he suggested "I am sure this has been discussed many times, but I'm too lazy to do a thread search."
See the links I posted below. |
Date: January 24th, 2006 2:18 AM Author: Contagious temple messiness Would you say there is a bigger difference from a T10 school like Penn (that's T10, right) and G'Town, or G'Town and Texas? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=345352&forum_id=2#4898670) |
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Date: January 24th, 2006 2:19 AM Author: Motley weed whacker penn and texas are both regional state schools, hence more similar than g'town and another one. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=345352&forum_id=2#4898679) |
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Date: January 24th, 2006 10:30 AM Author: 180 sienna circlehead Jo Pa PWN3D! (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=345352&forum_id=2#4899626) |
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Date: January 24th, 2006 2:33 AM Author: appetizing institution codepig gtown and texas (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=345352&forum_id=2#4898779) |
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Date: January 24th, 2006 2:59 AM Author: glittery parlour wrong
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Date: January 24th, 2006 2:27 AM Author: glittery parlour I think it's a bad classification. I think the schools are prestigiously continuous up til Minnesota (not that it's a bad school). (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=345352&forum_id=2#4898733) |
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Date: January 24th, 2006 2:29 AM Author: Contagious temple messiness meaning in your opinion, there is a bigger difference from Harvard to GULC than say, GULC to USC (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=345352&forum_id=2#4898744) |
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Date: January 24th, 2006 2:33 AM Author: glittery parlour Meaning what I said, but, yes, I think that's the case. It's an artifact of various things that Boalt >> GULC >> USC/UCLA. From what I understand, placement in firms reflects that artifact, and so it's perfectly appropriate for law students and prospective law students to follow along, but the 14 doesn't reflect a real qualitative demarcation, imo. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=345352&forum_id=2#4898773) |
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Date: January 24th, 2006 2:29 AM Author: smoky irradiated indirect expression laser beams check nalpdirectory.org, and compare how many firms come to OCI. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=345352&forum_id=2#4898745) |
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Date: January 24th, 2006 8:08 AM Author: twinkling coiffed national I don't buy the arguments for a t14. I think T5, T10, T15, T20, T25 all distinguish different ranges of quality, but even these lines are somewhat flexible. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=345352&forum_id=2#4899261) |
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Date: January 24th, 2006 10:28 AM Author: Laughsome fanboi travel guidebook t14 is a myth. if duke does any better in california than texas (highly debatable), its bc its ranked a few spots higher. not bc its in the 14. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=345352&forum_id=2#4899620) |
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Date: January 24th, 2006 10:31 AM Author: twinkling coiffed national I agree, I think this board perpetuates its own myths about schools, placement and "prestige". Obviously there are differences between Columbia and Michigan and Georgetown and USC, but the differences are exagerrated within the groups of 1-5, 6-10, 11-15 etc. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=345352&forum_id=2#4899630) |
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Date: January 24th, 2006 12:06 PM Author: Deranged Zombie-like Location Corn Cake Subject: THIS is why it's T14 (1) All T14 schools have a valid claim at being a "Top 10" school, since they have all been ranked there at least once. No other schools can say the same.
(2) Since USNWR changed its methodology back in 1990, the schools in the T14 have remained exactly the same, only changing their order slightly among each other over the last 15 years.
(3) Historically, the T14 schools have almost always had 25/75 private practice salary ranges of $125,000 or greater.
(4) Historically, the T14 schools have always had Academic Reputation scores and Professional/Judge Reputation scores above 4.0 in USNWR.
(5) Historically, the T14 schools are unanimously regarded as the "national" law schools, while schools ranked #15 and below were viewed as "regional" schools. This dichotomy appears to be changing, however, as schools like UCLA, Texas, Vanderbilt, George Washington and Notre Dame are slowly beginning to improve their placement in regions outside of their school's. Regardless, these few "semi-national" schools will never have the same national name recognition as the more respected and entrenched T14, except maybe in their school's own region.
(6) The "T14" is not a "myth". Ther term "T14" may have began as a construct of the PR board (before xoxo), but the term has been used outside of this board (read: in publications, lectures, etc) on numerous occasions by professors, career counselors, headhunters, and current associates/partners at major law firms. Maybe someone can post all of the old links to " 'T14' in-the-news". Today, "T14" is a fairly well-established delineation among law schools.
(7) Because T14 is a term of prestige and exclusivity among law schools, it would never be expanded to include a "Sweet 16" or a "T20". If anything, it would simply shrink to "T6" or "the Trinity". The rest of the law schools would simply have to fight out the status of upper-echelon mediocrity among themselves. |
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Date: January 24th, 2006 1:17 PM Author: twinkling coiffed national You are trying way too hard. Georgetown is not that much better than UCLA and Texas. Just relax dude. In the grand scope of things, what does it matter if it is T15, T16, T20 or T14? I think it is much more reasonable to acknowledge the Top 30 or so schools as the upper echelon of law schools, but of course there are differences in reputation and placement. You can say that personally you wouldn't go to a school below a certain cutoff point, but trying to force that same point upon others is just pathetic. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=345352&forum_id=2#4900656) |
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Date: January 24th, 2006 4:21 PM Author: Deranged Zombie-like Location Corn Cake "I think it is much more reasonable to acknowledge the Top 30 or so schools as the upper echelon of law schools, but of course there are differences in reputation and placement."
I doubt there's a major difference in the teaching style or education received at a school ranked #14 and a school ranked #30, but as you concede, the biggest difference is "Reputation" and "Placement". In the superficial occupation that is the law, these two things are arguably the most important factors when choosing a law school. Your life as a lawyer can be made infinitely easier or more difficult based on where you went to school, and how many doors are open to you when you begin practice.
"You can say that personally you wouldn't go to a school below a certain cutoff point, but trying to force that same point upon others is just pathetic."
No one's forcing anything here. What I've stated is simply the truth. The T14 is a real animal. It exists in the world outside this message board. Being a "T14" grad comes with more currency in the world of law than being a grad of a lesser school. Fact. |
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Date: January 24th, 2006 1:50 PM Author: Laughsome fanboi travel guidebook "(3) Historically, the T14 schools are unanimously regarded as the "national" law schools, while schools ranked #15 and below were viewed as "regional" schools. This dichotomy appears to be changing, however, as schools like UCLA, Texas, Vanderbilt, George Washington and Notre Dame are slowly beginning to improve their placement in regions outside of their school's. Regardless, these few "semi-national" schools will never have the same national name recognition as the more respected and entrenched T14, except maybe in their school's own region"
This is simply not true. theres a regionality to many schools in the t14. Duke, GT, even UVA will carry to the west coast but wont have some supreme edge over Texas. Their advantage (if any) is due to being ranked higher, in the same way that Texas will have an edge over Minnesota. Its not bc theyre in the t14. Likewise, schools like ND and Vandy are not suddenly on the rise. theyve had 'national' reputations for quite some time. |
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Date: January 24th, 2006 1:55 PM Author: Contagious temple messiness Would you say ND and Vandy are national? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=345352&forum_id=2#4900923) |
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Date: January 24th, 2006 2:01 PM Author: Laughsome fanboi travel guidebook somewhat. i would say the true 'national' (i.e., go anywhere and get a top job) distinction is much higher than 14. however, schools below 14 can still carry a national presence. thus making t14 a line in the sand in terms of 'nationality.' i dont think someone has a very good case saying the difference b/w Duke and Texas is greater than the difference b/c Texas and Minnesota or BU
"Regardless, these few "semi-national" schools will never have the same national name recognition as the more respected and entrenched T14, except maybe in their school's own region"
Again, absurd. Theres no way in hell a firm in LA or Austin wants a Duke or GT grad more than UCLA/USC or UT |
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Date: January 24th, 2006 4:10 PM Author: Deranged Zombie-like Location Corn Cake Everything you've posted on this thread is pure speculation and conjecture. Please post a single study, statistic, or any source at all that proves that a Duke/Georgetown grad will have less of a shot at a job in LA than a UCLA/USC grad, or in Texas over a UT grad, all class ranks being equal. Whether you use GTO's study, Leiter's study, or NALP Employment Stats...all the facts show that you are wrong.
Every job placement statistic in cyberspace illustrates that being a "T14" student gives you a distinct edge in the job market that being a "T20" or "T30" student does not. The Reputation Scores as recorded by US News suggest that scholars and employers have a very high regard for the T14, and this is reflected by the amount of firms who interview there during on-campus interviewing (just search NALP to see the gross disparities between the firms recruiting at a T14 and a school ranked #30, for instance).
LA and Texas firms recruit at T14 schools if for no other reason than to brag to their clients about what bright associates they have from the nation's top law schools. Many firm publish the names of students (and their law schools) in summer associate classes in major magazines like National Lawyer, AmLaw, New York Lawyer, California Lawyer, etc. It's about bragging rights. Getting any T14 student is a badge of honor, since any firm in LA or Houston could quite easily scoop up graduates from the local law schools like USC/UCLA.
Do you really think that, all GPA's/class ranks being equal, an employer would take a Notre Dame grad over a Cornell or Boalt grad in any middle-market midwestern law firm (even though that's ND's "region")?
I know all you TTT's out there would like to believe that the T14 is fictitious, and a product of this board. But we'll see in a couple years when you're struggling to find a job with your TTT Law Review status, and the Bottom 25% of a T14 is commanding a $125,000 salary, and had no problem finding employment. |
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Date: January 24th, 2006 10:39 PM Author: Laughsome fanboi travel guidebook "Everything you've posted on this thread is pure speculation and conjecture. Please post a single study, statistic, or any source at all that proves that a Duke/Georgetown grad will have less of a shot at a job in LA than a UCLA/USC grad, or in Texas over a UT grad, all class ranks being equal. Whether you use GTO's study, Leiter's study, or NALP Employment Stats...all the facts show that you are wrong."
You need to check your 'evidence.' Leiter's study says the most national schools ARE NOT the t14: http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/index.shtml
Likewise the GTO study refutes the t14 by placing Vandy > GULC
"Do you really think that, all GPA's/class ranks being equal, an employer would take a Notre Dame grad over a Cornell or Boalt grad in any middle-market midwestern law firm (even though that's ND's "region")?"
That doesnt address the issue of t14 whatsoever. Boalt may very well place better, but ND may very well place better in the midatlantic than George mason. Each is ranked much higher, nothing to do w/ the line being drawn at 14.
Nobody is saying there isnt a hierarchy, just that there isnt a life changing line drawn at 14.
A better question would be whether GT places better in the midwest than Texas and if so, is there a difference bc its t14 or simply bc its ranked higher? (ie, moreso than Texas placing better than USC). Your evidence indicates it doesnt even satisfy the first condition.
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Date: January 24th, 2006 4:15 PM Author: maniacal idea he suggested http://www.xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=284778&mc=1&forum_id=2 (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=345352&forum_id=2#4901915) |
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Date: January 24th, 2006 4:15 PM Author: maniacal idea he suggested http://www.xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=19306&mc=29&forum_id=2
http://www.xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=84744&mc=64&forum_id=2
http://www.xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=345352&mc=31&forum_id=2 |
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Date: January 24th, 2006 4:25 PM Author: twinkling coiffed national T14 troll! LOL (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=345352&forum_id=2#4902018) |