“It is likely that we will have a position for you,” Mr. Hauser said. “We need you to fill out additional forms before confirmation. Also, do you have CPR certification?”

“No,” replied Benny. “Do I need it?”

“We require that all our staff have First Aid/CPR/AED certification,” answered Mr. Hauser. “We arrange courses with the Red Cross for our prospective staff.”

“Do you cover the cost?” asked Benny.

“No, each person pays for himself directly to the Red Cross,” replied Mr. Hauser. “It’s $100. There is one starting in a week, if you’d like.”

Benny registered, took the course and received certification.

Two weeks later, Mr. Hauser called Benny. “We’ve had a very large number of excellent applicants,” he said. “We are not able to accommodate them all. We appreciate your qualifications and willingness to work but unfortunately cannot offer you a position.”

Benny was very disappointed. “I was looking forward to working with the children,” he said. “I was also counting on the additional income for the year.”

“I understand,” Mr. Hauser comforted him, “but the situation is that we cannot accept you.”

“You also made me spend $100 for the CPR course,” Benny complained. “It turned out to be a needless expense! At the least, you should compensate me for the cost of the course.”

“First of all, we never promised you a position,” replied Mr. Hauser. “Second, you gained the knowledge of the course.”

“But I would not have taken the course had you not told me that I needed it,” argued Benny. “Can I raise the issue with Rabbi Dayan?”

“Certainly,” said Mr. Hauser. “Let me know what he says.”

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4104441&forum_id=2#37010126)

on the other hand, CPR certification is such a common and useful skill that you could argue that even if there the employer is liable at equity, the damages are less than $100 -- or even $0.

i'm really not sure how the talmud is going to come out, but i tend to think that it's worthless.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4104441&forum_id=2#37010268)

if he were required to take $100 for to learn some software program that ONLY this employer uses, then we can all agree that the knowledge/certification is totally useless.

a CPR certification is obviously distinguishable from the previous example. it's arguably useful to many people and a good life skill to have -- even if benny says it's worthless to him.

i'm really not sure. i need to think about it more.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4104441&forum_id=2#37010321)

however, remember the fun legal hypo where the cabbie's booking stands him up and the rabbi ruled that he doesn't get compensated for his entire profit because he got the day off and didnt have to work, so he gets maybe 1/2 of his profit? these cases seem to have wacky results about benefits that you don't really want but are considered ways in which you benefit.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4104441&forum_id=2#37010444)

So yes the question is has he benefitted from this at all, I would argue he hasn’t

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4104441&forum_id=2#37010469)

the concept is that you're hired to do a job and the other side screws you over, you dont get your full expectation interest if you get to sit on your ass instead of doing the job. the talmud ascribes some value to sitting on your ass and not having to do the job.

i argued with the rabbi, and i said what if someone really needed the money and wanted to do the job so he can make his entire profit... not sit on his ass and get a portion of the profit.

his response is that there's always some price that someone would do something or not do something for.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4104441&forum_id=2#37010495)

What’s the rabbi’s solution to this hypo here?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4104441&forum_id=2#37010520)

i think the lynchpin is that the employer ARRANGED the course for benny. they didnt just tell him to go out and find a course on his own. why would they arrange a course for someone they don't want to hire?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4104441&forum_id=2#37010216)

i think them arranging the course basically turns it into a "if you do this we will”

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4104441&forum_id=2#37010341)

... on this fact pattern, i think there's fairly clearly no estoppel. agreed?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4104441&forum_id=2#37010378)

The only equitable solution is to refund the $100, but also have a rabbi (from the *employer's* temple) hit Benny in the head with a hammer until he forgets everything he learned in the CPR class.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4104441&forum_id=2#37010518)

"“We arrange courses with the Red Cross for our prospective staff.” "

Either is suggestive enough to warrant Benny's reasonable belief. There is certainly far more neutral language here that could have been used.

Employer atleast pays the class.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4104441&forum_id=2#37010874)

performing what seemed to be "require[d] of staff"

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4104441&forum_id=2#37011151)

“When you incur expenses based upon an arrangement with or the instructions of another, sometimes you are entitled to compensation if he does not follow through,” replied Rabbi Dayan. “For example, if two people arranged a court date in a distant city and one did not appear, he is liable for the travel expenses of his opponent. According to many authorities this is considered garmi, directly caused damage” (Rema, C.M. 14:5).

“Chavos Yair (#168) extrapolates from this to families from distant places who planned a wedding, but the chassan did not arrive at the appointed time,” continued Rabbi Dayan. “He is liable for the unnecessary wedding expenses that the kallah incurred, unless there was sufficient cause for his delay or absence” (Pischei Teshuvah, C.M. 14:15).

“Would this apply in our case?” asked Benny.

“Here, the organization is exempt for a few reasons,” answered Rabbi Dayan. “First, CPR training is of value for any person. Although most people take the course in the context of job requirements, many people take it for their edification and personal knowledge. At some point you may now be able to save a life! Thus, even had the organization misled you intentionally and instructed you to take the course unnecessarily, they would only be liable for partial compensation. The amount that the average person would spend for this knowledge is not a loss, and would be deducted” (see Sma 333:30).

“Moreover, Mr. Hauser never promised you a position or demanded that you take the course then,” concluded Rabbi Dayan. “You knew that you needed confirmation and should have considered the possibility that you might not be accepted; you could have waited to take the course.

“Additionally, perhaps there was sincere intent to hire you, but due to the large number of candidates it was not possible, which could be considered sufficient cause. Therefore, they are exempt.”

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4104441&forum_id=2#37034695)

there are literally thousands of different CYA certifications that ppl pay out of pocket for in order to get jobs. it's a stupid racket in many cases but it's how it is.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4104441&forum_id=2#37034718)