Marta, Manhatta, etc

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4372272&forum_id=2#39041986)

But thats also a result of Japanese pride in their work.

Compare your average NYC subway worker to a Tokyo subway worker.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4372272&forum_id=2#39042008)

$18?

$24?

$32?

$42?

$54?

$68?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4372272&forum_id=2#39042344)

minimum wage is a political issue that can be resolved through the usual methods but special treatment for restauranteurs to pass costs along to customers is bullshit

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4372272&forum_id=2#39042351)

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4372272&forum_id=2#39042476)

Worse service from overextended waiters getting fewer tables

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4372272&forum_id=2#39041972)

[21% | 25% | 29% | 34%]

[Solve the captcha to not leave a tip.]

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4372272&forum_id=2#39042197)

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-15-minimum-wage-was-supposed-to-hurt-new-york-city-restaurants-but-both-revenue-and-employment-are-up-2019-10-28

Huh.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4372272&forum_id=2#39042139)

What about a couple decades ago when there was an even higher portion?

Those are hardly counterfactuals, they prove my point, and they're even more restrictive than your immigration-based claim.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4372272&forum_id=2#39045941)

overall networth: $-200,000

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4372272&forum_id=2#39042254)

also, ask any lib about the benefits of immigration and legit 100% of them will mention ethnic restaurants. it's insane.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4372272&forum_id=2#39042379)

Anyone who says something like "good! It's about time the owners paid their workers" is legit dumb re: business and doesn't understand the first thing about variable cost or how important cash flow is for these places. Most restaurants are perpetually 3 months from closing bc of the average total cost.

I understand the critique about tipping and dining out and no minds will be be changed discussing it

and p.s. discontinuing the peg between min wage and inflation in '03 or whatever was fucking criminal and stop acting like you're a populist if you disagree with that

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4372272&forum_id=2#39043551)

restaurantauring in NYC is also one of the most competitive, cutthroat industries. Even good ones go under

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4372272&forum_id=2#39043629)

why does ever place who tries the no-tip model fail miserably

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4372272&forum_id=2#39045212)

if prices were the same (ie you ban tips and raise menu prices), customers would prefer the tipping model bc it gives them more power and there is an implicit agreement between the server and guest. If you prefer an iPad at your table I get it. Most people don't and this has been proven time and time again

The major business conflict here is scheduling and staffing. It's rent >>> staffing >>>>>>>>>> yelp reviews and everything else

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4372272&forum_id=2#39045298)

If you ask people in non typing countries, they absolutely do not want to switch to a tipping system and they get furious at foreigners who come in and try to bring in tipping norms

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4372272&forum_id=2#39045307)

nowhere in your argument are you presenting evidence as to why one system is better for the consumer or cheaper or whatever.

you don't seem to get tipping for service and think the service at Denny's and the The Mark is the same because they are both bringing you a plate

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4372272&forum_id=2#39045342)

'tipping for service' is an outdated concept, in reality tipping is a cold hard expectation and no one will be 'understanding' if you dock your tip below the accepted standards because of your perception of 'service'. the amount of the tip depends more on the type of person being served than on the actual service provided. the only real difference is a sort of overzealousness in american servers in trying to sell you more product to up their pay. some people find this off putting, but perhaps this is your point about 'different tastes'.

i dont really think ive said anywhere that service at denny's and an upscale place is the same. but along the same lines, service at a three michelin star restaurant in singapore or sydney is not worse than the similar restaurant in nyc, even though tipping expectations are wildly different. there are ways to ensure good service outside of enforcing an expectation on the customer to tip

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4372272&forum_id=2#39045721)

Again, I don't see a single point about how no-tipping is better, besides that it's a cultural norm in places abroad (and service is worse, as people ITT have mentioned). I've listed quite a few to defend tipping

You don't like tipping because you feel compelled to leave a tip when you eat, despite the quality of service. This offends you, I get it. But believe me, lots of people leave "substandard" tips when waiters (or cooks) fuck up. Some people also tip generously if they feel the service went above and beyond the norm. And most people tip the same everytime they go out an accept it as part of dining out. They go to nice restaurants and expect nice service and they compensate the server accordingly. Just like why they are okay paying more for the same piece of chicken

Your criticism is closer to a rant on Curb Your Enthusiasm than a takedown of the restaurant industry. Its autistic and the fact you feel tension with the server speaks to that

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4372272&forum_id=2#39045812)

Price transparency is useful. Yes, people understand there is tax and tip when they go out, but psychologically it is different when you see a $10 item on the menu even if you think it through the real cost will be more like $14. It has an effect on customer behavior and restauranteurs know this. You're just brushing this aside, but I think in almost every context consumers are better off seeing the price they have to pay up front rather than having to do calculations to find the 'true price'.

The so-called benefit to the tipping system does not outweigh this. Service isn't always worse in other places where tipping is not the norm. In Japan, tipping is considered an insult and the service is almost universally better than in the US. Other countries may vary up or down, but this is more due to cultural considerations than tipping of the lack thereof. You even agree that most people just tip what they believe to be the customary amount and accept it as part of eating out. That suggests to me that tipping is mostly not linked to service quality and provides little incentive to improve service. In many non-tipping countries, people do provide a little extra (though nowhere close to 20%) for exceptional service, though it is not an expectation. I don't see how this is any different in terms of motivating factors for service.

My intention is not to "takedown the restaurant industry", but rather to argue that the employer-employee relationship should be where compensation is discussed and agreed. You claim it's 'autistic' to claim there is tension in the server-customer relationship, but servers are notorious for ranting about inadequate tips and shitting on customers for this reason. On the other hand, extremely frugal customers may keep a running note of errors and deduct tips based on perceived slights. That seems like real tension to me. It would be better off for servers to have certainty in what they will be paid and customers to be presented with the all-in cost for the items they are ordering so everyone is on the same page.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4372272&forum_id=2#39045870)

The price transparency argument is complete horseshit and I won't even entertain it. We aren't talking about and AirBnB cleaning fee or TicketMaster service charge.

In any discussion we have about the benefits of the tipping system, you will pivot to how in other places they do things differently, without any explanation as to why one way is better than the other.

The only point you're making is you dislike the tipping system out of concern for the employee. I find that hard to believe, when you literally debating this with an ex-employee and I am telling you that employees prefer this system -- and I'm pretty confident you know this too. I am also going out of my way to mention why owners and customers prefer it as well.

You are literally internalizing the Facebook posts of some Chili's waiter in Boise to the point where you feel uncomfortable talking to some 24-year-old server in Brooklyn when ordering a hamburger. This comes down to your distaste for cultural norms in the US, interacting with other humans, and implicit societal expectations. Its autistic.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4372272&forum_id=2#39045883)

No one is surprised that the price on a menu doesn't include the tip.

Servers and restaurants benefit, and prefer, the tipping system.

People in America also prefer the tipping system.

What do you want to argue? You aren't making a point besides that Japan has a better business culture than the US.

I would actually love to argue about why I think tipping in restaurants makes sense, why it's better for both owners and employees, why Americans like to dissociate the product and labor costs, but you aren't arguing any of that.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4372272&forum_id=2#39045893)

People have tried the no-tip model in the US and all have failed miserably, because the customers hate it.

The GUILT shit is autistic.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4372272&forum_id=2#39045902)

Servers prefer the tipping system because they make more money and can evade taxes. Restaurants prefer tipping because they have lower expenses and can reflect lower prices on the menu, which has a psychological impact on consumers as mentioned above.However, it seems consumer do not prefer tipping. A plurality would prefer servers to be paid higher wages instead of tips based on one poll, which seems more convincing than your anecdotal evidence.

https://today.yougov.com/topics/food/articles-reports/2017/09/05/more-americans-favor-higher-wages-than-tipping

I am arguing the tipping system sucks and workers should be paid fairly by employers rather than passing the decision to consumers. I think I've been clear about this. Japan is only one example. I point to other non-tipping cultures to counter your belief that service is demonstrably worse without tipping. This has not been my experience, and it is illustrative that people who have grown up with a non-tipping norm aren't clamoring to introduce tipping in their own countries after experiencing the american system. You're free to disagree, but I'm not clear why you are throwing around insults because I don't agree with your take on this.

I don't think Americans "like" to dissociate product and labor costs, its just the way it is, and change is difficult because if a restaurant tries to fight it alone, it just appears to have higher prices based on the menu, which is difficult in a competitive environment. So it's inertia, not tipping being "better" that perpetrates the system.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4372272&forum_id=2#39045910)

I don't care about one survey (of course people will answer that way), if it was so popular, then the 300 restaurants who have tried no-tipping wouldn't be closed right now. And that's probably the biggest indictment of your argument. This comes down to Americans having different preferences, and you not being on board with them.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4372272&forum_id=2#39045916)

I've already addressed the problems with implementing no-tipping policies in a society where every competitor uses tipping. The main problem is that menu prices matter, regardless if one includes service and the other doesn't. It actually cuts against your argument that "people don't care if the prices in the menu reflect actual cost". It's actually a big deal.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4372272&forum_id=2#39045918)

This really comes down to american customers wanting to feel like a boss when they go out to eat and some random tax laws

I really don't buy the menu shock argument, nor do I buy your concern for employee-employer relations. You aren't even arguing that no-tipping is better because there would be lower prices for customers. Your just arguing about who's job it is to cut the money pie

We seem to both be coming to the conclusion that people in other places have their own system, and it works for them

Good sparring tho

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4372272&forum_id=2#39045927)

"Lynn says that a customer who routinely tips fifteen per cent will see a gratuity-included restaurant as more expensive than a traditional restaurant with menu prices fifteen per cent lower. “In fact, a customer who routinely tips twenty per cent”—making her total bill higher than the gratuity-included alternative—“will still view the no-tipping restaurant as more expensive,” Lynn told me."

https://www.newyorker.com/culture/annals-of-gastronomy/the-limitations-of-american-restaurants-no-tipping-experiment

To me, this is clearly the reason why no tipping fails in the US. You need to burn the whole system down or nothing will change. I don't particularly want to feel like a server's boss when I'm at a restaurant, and I doubt I'm alone in this.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4372272&forum_id=2#39045935)

It would have to start from the top imo. Everyone copies the the top restaurants. Then you would have to go do a PSA to tell every Becky that they don't need to feel sorry for that Vietnamesse server at the local Chinese restaurant and leave them extra money.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4372272&forum_id=2#39045942)

You’re basically arguing waiters should take a yuge pay cut (nobody pays taxes on their cash tips) and will provide equivalent service when their incentive is stripped.

And no, service in foreign countries is hit or miss. Ireland just automatically charges you a 15% tip and the service is garbage.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4372272&forum_id=2#39046091)

you're right that there is less overzealousness than in the us, but i dont think thats a bad thing

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4372272&forum_id=2#39045728)

When people take an Uber, they don't want the driver to talk to them. When people eat out, they want the server to enthusiatically answer questions, recommend items, appear at the perfect time, get their wife another glass of wine, say something funny, etc etc. It's a whole song and dance and at the base of it is the customer feeling like a big shot and in control. It's an experience, and how many of us have had this experience ruined by bad service? On the other hand, how many of us brag about going to their favorite bar and getting drinks comped and joking with the bartender? I can't even remember the last time I had a good Uber driver (although I can name a bad one from six months ago).

I get the argument that dining out is complete flame -- I actually don't particularly enjoy it. You could make the same meal at home, etc. But the fact of the matter is a lot of people here like dining out because of the "experience" and tipping id part of that.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4372272&forum_id=2#39045909)

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4372272&forum_id=2#39045925)

It is very true that the best service is the service you don't notice. Like reffing a game

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4372272&forum_id=2#39045936)

stuffwhitepeoplelike levels are out of control ITT right now holy shit

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4372272&forum_id=2#39045931)

wrong. water is free

service sucks

wrong again. service in the first world > your shit american third world service

they drive donkeys to work

wrong a third time.

lol@ this fucking dummy

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4372272&forum_id=2#39045920)

and I'm not 100% sure they don't ride donkeys in Korea judging by some of the girls you fuck

plz exit my subthread

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4372272&forum_id=2#39045940)

lol@ this dummy thinking there arent korean bbq joints that dont have waiters who grill your food for you (which all the high-end bbq places do, btw, you fucking moron)

oh u mad@ my mustang SUPERCAR

lets face it, youre apparently an ex-waiter yourself and super pissed that people rightly find tipping to be barbaric and completely unnecessary

cold nigga truth.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4372272&forum_id=2#39045943)

the 300 on a saturday in tip money i can understand, for fancy restaurants, not the cheap ones. cheap ones is more like 150.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4372272&forum_id=2#39045085)

Any good servers will expect to make a minimum of $150/night post-tax (and that's on the low end). If they don't, they leave. This is MFH tho

Quality of restaurant doesn't matter that much once you get to a certain threshold. Most servers actually don't like "fine dining" for a variety of reasons

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4372272&forum_id=2#39045183)

An associate at a small shitlaw NYC insurance defense or immigration firm may make $75k to billl 2,000 hours. That's $37/hour for 2,000 billables and likely $34 or $35 when you look at actual hours worked.

Why would anyone with a TTT law degree work in such a firm when they could be a waiter and never have to check work email or deal with awful law?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4372272&forum_id=2#39046118)