The most prestigious law school admissions discussion board in the world.
|
 |
 
|
typical day in the life of a corporate lawyer
Poast new message in this thread
Date: June 29th, 2006 8:33 PM Author: Glassy Native New Version well? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=444939&forum_id=2#6106574) |
 |
Date: June 29th, 2006 8:35 PM Author: bisexual round eye kitchen Fucks his secretary. goes home to his psychotic wife. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=444939&forum_id=2#6106587) |
|
Date: July 1st, 2006 3:04 PM Author: transparent center ladyboy "I could be doing that, but then I'd also have a $1000 a day coke and hooker habit and beat my wife and kids in the Hamptons on the weekends that I see them. This way, I only punish my liver, and what good is a liver if you don't abuse it?"
Tucker Max, in reference to being a corporate lawyer. |
|
Date: June 30th, 2006 3:21 PM Author: amber razzmatazz pistol forum vault.com ---> industries ---> law
They have day-in-the-life things. |
|
Date: July 2nd, 2006 4:14 AM Author: Racy erotic jewess psychic He watches the O'RLY Factor on FOX NEWS! (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=444939&forum_id=2#6122328) |
Date: June 29th, 2006 8:45 PM Author: Light place of business 10 a.m. wake up to the gentle sound of money rustling. 10:30 be served breakfast in bed by french maid 11:00 be taken by limo to office 11:15 start working 11:45 leave for lunch with client. Take easurely stroll to restaurant. 12:15 arrive at restaurant. Eat steak with client. Drink wine. 2:15 pm Leave restaurant. Take easurely stroll to office. 2:45 Arrive at office. Start working. 3:30 Time for a coffee break. 3:50 Return to your desk. Start working 4:00 Go to CLE seminar. They serve good food. 5:00 Return to desk. No more work, but stay for face time, 5:30 take limo to your private club. Relax with friends. 7:30 meet date for dinner. 9:30 Go dancing. 11:30 Return home, make passionate love 11:32 Fall asleep to the sound of interest accruing. |
|
Date: June 30th, 2006 3:20 PM Author: Maniacal sweet tailpipe property 4 a.m. Wake up to the sound of alarm clock ringing, hit snooze button.
4:15 a.m. Wake up to sound of alarm clock ringing again, drag ass out of bed and into shower.
4:45 a.m. Arrive at office, having picked up McDonald's breakfast on the way.
5:00 a.m. Start working.
12:00 p.m. Order lunch for delivery. Eat at desk.
7:00 p.m. Order dinner for delivery. Eat at desk.
8:00 p.m. Check bank balance online. Notice it is very large. Wish for time to spend it.
10:00 p.m. Go home. Wack off with aid of internet porn.
11:00 p.m. Cry self to sleep. |
|
Date: June 30th, 2006 3:22 PM Author: Balding Boiling Water Parlor Can I drink between 10 and 11? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=444939&forum_id=2#6112343) |
|
Date: June 30th, 2006 3:23 PM Author: Maniacal sweet tailpipe property Edited: Sure, alcohol burn makes the wacking off that much better. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=444939&forum_id=2#6112353) |
|
Date: June 30th, 2006 3:23 PM Author: Balding Boiling Water Parlor In the PM. I'm home then in my boxlike studio in a trendy building. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=444939&forum_id=2#6112359) |
|
Date: June 30th, 2006 3:25 PM Author: Galvanic sick theater 180 (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=444939&forum_id=2#6112371) |
|
Date: June 30th, 2006 3:47 PM Author: canary therapy lodge What a total fucking lie. As if McD's is open at 4am. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=444939&forum_id=2#6112565) |
|
Date: June 30th, 2006 3:49 PM Author: Maniacal sweet tailpipe property http://msnbc.msn.com/id/5437151/
Oak Brook, Illinois-based McDonald's, which since 2003 has curbed expansion to improve operations and build traffic at existing stores, now has about 80 percent of its 13,000 U.S. restaurants on some form of extended hours, a spokesman said. At least 12 percent operate around the clock. |
|
Date: June 30th, 2006 3:52 PM Author: canary therapy lodge Damn, moving to oak brook now. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=444939&forum_id=2#6112635) |
|
Date: June 30th, 2006 3:55 PM Author: Balding Boiling Water Parlor You don't have 24 hour McDonald's... WTF???? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=444939&forum_id=2#6112675) |
|
Date: June 30th, 2006 3:55 PM Author: chest-beating goyim newt Isn't the Times Sq. one 24 hours? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=444939&forum_id=2#6112679) |
|
Date: June 30th, 2006 3:58 PM Author: Balding Boiling Water Parlor So is one by my house on the Island. I thought a lot of them were. Unless you live in bumblefuck. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=444939&forum_id=2#6112710) |
|
Date: July 2nd, 2006 11:35 AM Author: Cowardly ruddy main people brunch Even lots of the ones in East Bumfuck are open 24 hours. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=444939&forum_id=2#6122521) |
|
Date: June 30th, 2006 3:23 PM Author: Pearly fat ankles sanctuary flame. associates have to take town cars; only partners get limos (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=444939&forum_id=2#6112357) |
|
Date: June 30th, 2006 3:24 PM Author: Pea-brained Talking Giraffe Indian Lodge this was getting a 175 until the last one brought it up to 180 (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=444939&forum_id=2#6112365) |
|
Date: June 30th, 2006 3:49 PM Author: Balding Boiling Water Parlor Agreed dood. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=444939&forum_id=2#6112604) |
|
Date: June 30th, 2006 3:49 PM Author: Beady-eyed umber national This lawyer has sex for less than 2 minutes? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=444939&forum_id=2#6112595) |
|
Date: June 30th, 2006 3:50 PM Author: Maniacal sweet tailpipe property Hookers don't care. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=444939&forum_id=2#6112608) |
|
Date: June 30th, 2006 3:55 PM Author: Beady-eyed umber national I would think they would prefer it. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=444939&forum_id=2#6112669) |
|
Date: June 30th, 2006 3:56 PM Author: Maniacal sweet tailpipe property That must be why they get along so well with lawyers. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=444939&forum_id=2#6112689) |
|
Date: June 30th, 2006 3:58 PM Author: Pearly fat ankles sanctuary here is joke (imagine it flying) . . . . . here is your head |
|
Date: July 1st, 2006 12:47 PM Author: Stirring Elastic Band Church Just beautiful. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=444939&forum_id=2#6117628) |
|
Date: July 1st, 2006 3:26 PM Author: Bull headed opaque coffee pot senate 10:15 teach immigrant the word is 'leisurely,' not 'easurely.' (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=444939&forum_id=2#6118293) |
|
Date: July 1st, 2006 7:18 PM Author: dull metal cuckoldry queen of the night and here i thought i was learning a new word. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=444939&forum_id=2#6119301) |
|
Date: July 1st, 2006 2:55 PM Author: transparent center ladyboy 9:00 am - I just got into the office. The investment bankers will be here any minute to bully us around with this billion-dollar acquisition they're advising on. I start putting on my kneepads.
10:00 am - The bankers roll in, late as usual, joking about how they make twice as much as us. I get on my knees and start sucking.
10:50 am - Finally, some directors from this prestigious buyout fund show up for the drafting session. One of them tells me to grab him some coffee.
10:54 am - As I'm handing him his mug of coffee, I just barely touch his hand. I almost climax.
11:00 am to 10:45 pm - I suck more people's dicks. Finally, I can go home.
11:05 pm - I'm about to sneak out of the office, when a senior partner leaves me a voicemail telling me that there's a whole bunch of shit to do. I was told during law school that biglawyers work a little less than junior investment bankers, but I guess I was lied to; I'll have to spend the night in the office. Again. |
|
Date: July 1st, 2006 2:59 PM Author: Galvanic sick theater i laughed at this. ty. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=444939&forum_id=2#6118211) |
|
Date: July 1st, 2006 3:11 PM Author: ultramarine menage brethren you're too stupid and unprestigious to ever become a biglawyer. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=444939&forum_id=2#6118252) |
|
Date: July 1st, 2006 3:28 PM Author: Galvanic sick theater agreed. kill self? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=444939&forum_id=2#6118306) |
|
Date: July 1st, 2006 3:58 PM Author: Concupiscible purple address partner A+++++++++ (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=444939&forum_id=2#6118448) |
|
Date: July 1st, 2006 3:56 PM Author: Stirring Elastic Band Church My days vary a lot. But as a basic template:
9:30 Come in, read newspaper. 10am-6pm Talk on phone with people about issues in documents. Eat lunch at desk. 6pm-7:30pm Revise drafts of those documents. 7:30pm-8pm Dinner 8pm-? Revise drafts of those documents.
That's what I do -- negotiate documents, and draft them. |
|
Date: July 1st, 2006 3:57 PM Author: free-loading red field riveting (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=444939&forum_id=2#6118443) |
|
Date: July 1st, 2006 3:59 PM Author: Concupiscible purple address partner How does a negotiation with a document go? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=444939&forum_id=2#6118453) |
|
Date: July 1st, 2006 4:01 PM Author: Stirring Elastic Band Church ?
I normally negotiate with people about documents. Not with documents. |
|
Date: July 1st, 2006 4:02 PM Author: Concupiscible purple address partner You don't know anything about negotiation, though. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=444939&forum_id=2#6118463) |
|
Date: July 1st, 2006 4:05 PM Author: Stirring Elastic Band Church What do you mean? If you mean that I'm not particularly trained in negotiation, I'd concede that. If you mean I don't negotiate, I would disagree. I'm not the one negotiating price or major deal terms, but the junior associates pretty regularly negotiate confidentiality agreements, agreements with various agents (i-bank engagement letters, exchange agent agreements, proxy solicitor engagements), language in securities filings, reps in merger agreements, disclosure schedules, etc. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=444939&forum_id=2#6118481) |
|
Date: July 1st, 2006 4:06 PM Author: Concupiscible purple address partner Typical they don't let you get anywhere near money. You'll always be below ibankers. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=444939&forum_id=2#6118488) |
|
Date: July 1st, 2006 4:07 PM Author: free-loading red field far below, even (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=444939&forum_id=2#6118491) |
|
Date: July 1st, 2006 4:09 PM Author: Concupiscible purple address partner In preschool on career day, a v50 partner's child was teased mercilessly. It was then I knew a career in law was a dead end. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=444939&forum_id=2#6118494) |
|
Date: July 1st, 2006 5:05 PM Author: Bull headed opaque coffee pot senate Good thing you attend TAMU then, hotbed of ibank recruiting that it is. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=444939&forum_id=2#6118730) |
|
Date: July 1st, 2006 4:20 PM Author: gay curious space "i don't do anything important, but, like the other tards, i get to 'negotiate' boilerplate clauses." (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=444939&forum_id=2#6118537) |
|
Date: July 1st, 2006 4:02 PM Author: free-loading red field Usually pretty one-sided, which is nice because we can feel like we're winning, which is much different than negotiating with the ibankers. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=444939&forum_id=2#6118466) |
|
Date: July 1st, 2006 4:02 PM Author: Balding Boiling Water Parlor This doesn't sound too bad up utnil after dinner. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=444939&forum_id=2#6118464) |
|
Date: July 1st, 2006 4:05 PM Author: Concupiscible purple address partner He could cut his day in half if his first revision of the documents weren't so shitty. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=444939&forum_id=2#6118479) |
|
Date: July 1st, 2006 4:06 PM Author: free-loading red field Corporate associates never know what they're doing. That's why they chose a career of proofreading and due diligence rather than practicing law. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=444939&forum_id=2#6118485) |
|
Date: July 1st, 2006 4:08 PM Author: Stirring Elastic Band Church You two are pretty boring. I'd love to hear how your typical day goes. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=444939&forum_id=2#6118492) |
|
Date: July 1st, 2006 4:10 PM Author: free-loading red field My day is pretty similar to yours, actually. Just giving you a hard time. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=444939&forum_id=2#6118497) |
|
Date: July 1st, 2006 4:10 PM Author: Concupiscible purple address partner 11:20 get up 11:25 smoke weed 12-2 class 2:20 smoke 3 dr phil 4:30 PTI 5 smoke 3am sleep |
|
Date: July 1st, 2006 4:12 PM Author: free-loading red field 180 (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=444939&forum_id=2#6118504) |
|
Date: July 1st, 2006 4:14 PM Author: Balding Boiling Water Parlor Dr Phil bro? GHEY (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=444939&forum_id=2#6118511) |
|
Date: July 1st, 2006 4:15 PM Author: Concupiscible purple address partner wtf bro? phil roolz (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=444939&forum_id=2#6118514) |
|
Date: July 1st, 2006 4:18 PM Author: Balding Boiling Water Parlor IF YOU WANT DIFFERENT DO DIFFERENT- this is not roolz (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=444939&forum_id=2#6118530) |
|
Date: July 1st, 2006 4:17 PM Author: ultramarine menage brethren this is the best life. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=444939&forum_id=2#6118527) |
|
Date: July 1st, 2006 4:38 PM Author: Galvanic sick theater it never ceases to amaze me how many people make PTI a crucial part of their day. that show is still good. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=444939&forum_id=2#6118620) |
|
Date: July 1st, 2006 5:24 PM Author: Thriller frisky hall good thing showers and dates don't sneak their way into your schedule. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=444939&forum_id=2#6118799) |
|
Date: July 1st, 2006 6:33 PM Author: Balding Boiling Water Parlor lmao (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=444939&forum_id=2#6119092) |
|
Date: July 1st, 2006 4:14 PM Author: chest-beating goyim newt How do you know when you have the ability to "negotiate" a particular term, and when that term should be passed to someone higher up? If the negotiate to reach an agreed upon understanding, generally, or are you really getting something more for your side?
Thanks for continuing to contribute even with so many jackasses here. |
|
Date: July 1st, 2006 4:19 PM Author: Stirring Elastic Band Church Depends. To some extent you just have a feel for what people care about. Or you'll negotiate your first ____ agreement/rep/whatever and ask the partner for advice, and by your second or third you'll know what to do on your own. In general, the more something restricts your client, creates liability, or allows the other side to do dangerous things, the less you can do on your own.
In general you negotiate to achieve more for your side, though it depends a bit. But there are a whole lot of provisions in any large contract that the principals don't have an "understanding" about -- no CEO has a clear, well-founded opinion on what his absence-of-changes rep should say -- but that are nonetheless important. |
|
Date: July 1st, 2006 5:02 PM Author: chest-beating goyim newt So it sounds like you quickly move from having no experience to someone with responsibility for at least pieces of the deal. It sounds like a job for someone who likes chatting it up on the phone.
Anyone call you a "f--king monkey scribe" yet? |
|
Date: July 2nd, 2006 1:31 PM Author: Stirring Elastic Band Church Yes. I (and most of my classmates) became responsible for parts of deals very quickly. There are deals where I'm the only associate and entirely responsible for things like confidentiality agreements, reps and warranties, disclosure schedules, proxy statement, etc. Partners will occasionally take a quick look. And I talk on the phone a lot.
No one has called me a fucking monkey scribe. |
|
Date: July 1st, 2006 4:17 PM Author: tan public bath pervert That does seem quite painful, and unless ? is like 8:15, ridiculously long. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=444939&forum_id=2#6118524) |
|
Date: July 1st, 2006 4:20 PM Author: Stirring Elastic Band Church Well I'm writing at a very general level. Replace "negotiate and draft documents" with "review emails and troll Lexis" and you have a day in the life of a litigator. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=444939&forum_id=2#6118541) |
|
Date: July 1st, 2006 4:22 PM Author: tan public bath pervert Hardly -- only an idiot would use lexis. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=444939&forum_id=2#6118552) |
|
Date: July 1st, 2006 4:24 PM Author: ultramarine menage brethren haha, i'm not clear on what "troll lexis" even means. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=444939&forum_id=2#6118560) |
|
Date: July 1st, 2006 4:58 PM Author: chest-beating goyim newt Lexis is cheaper and has a better interface. It's the choice of champions. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=444939&forum_id=2#6118693) |
|
Date: July 1st, 2006 5:02 PM Author: lascivious step-uncle's house sandwich Westlaw pwns lexis. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=444939&forum_id=2#6118714) |
|
Date: July 1st, 2006 5:11 PM Author: Bull headed opaque coffee pot senate The fact that you can get pleadings from cases handled by quality firms makes your life much easier. Gibson handled an identical, and very complicated, issue to what I was charged with researching, and I stayed late that night rewriting their work. I next "worked from home" the next two days watching espn and lounging at the pool, then turned in the assignment a full day early. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=444939&forum_id=2#6118747) |
|
Date: July 1st, 2006 5:14 PM Author: lascivious step-uncle's house sandwich wow, you're gonna be a great lawyer someday! (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=444939&forum_id=2#6118754) |
|
Date: July 1st, 2006 5:16 PM Author: Bull headed opaque coffee pot senate I think it's clear I already am. Besides, why re-create the wheel? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=444939&forum_id=2#6118762) |
|
Date: July 1st, 2006 5:14 PM Author: tan public bath pervert Do they not have pleadings on lexis? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=444939&forum_id=2#6118755) |
|
Date: July 1st, 2006 5:16 PM Author: Bull headed opaque coffee pot senate Not that I recall, but I haven't used Lexis in years. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=444939&forum_id=2#6118764) |
|
Date: July 1st, 2006 5:17 PM Author: tan public bath pervert Sucks to be them. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=444939&forum_id=2#6118768) |
|
Date: July 1st, 2006 5:17 PM Author: twinkling macaca yes, they actually do. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=444939&forum_id=2#6118767) |
|
Date: July 1st, 2006 5:06 PM Author: tan public bath pervert Cheaper? WTF? Why would I possibly care if it is cheaper? Lexis is shit. Westlaw is far superior. Nothing is worse that a lexis citation that forces me to use that crap. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=444939&forum_id=2#6118731) |
|
Date: July 1st, 2006 5:07 PM Author: lascivious step-uncle's house sandwich i hate how lexis's citation's must be perfect...if you cite "columbia law review" it will have no idea what you're doing. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=444939&forum_id=2#6118736) |
|
Date: July 1st, 2006 5:08 PM Author: free-loading red field LOL (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=444939&forum_id=2#6118738) |
|
Date: July 1st, 2006 5:09 PM Author: tan public bath pervert I just can't figure out why they would not have the useful headnotes like westlaw. The lexis headnotes are worthless. And the key number digest is great. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=444939&forum_id=2#6118741) |
|
Date: July 2nd, 2006 10:41 AM Author: Maniacal sweet tailpipe property Both interfaces are fucking hopeless. I'm praying for the day that google starts indexing caselaw. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=444939&forum_id=2#6122440) |
|
Date: July 1st, 2006 6:59 PM Author: fuchsia fortuitous meteor garrison Are you ever solely responsible for drafting whole, extensive deals (like 50 pages and up) or are they derived from other sources? (like multiple authors and existing documents). (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=444939&forum_id=2#6119225) |
|
Date: July 1st, 2006 7:14 PM Author: lascivious step-uncle's house sandwich that'd probably constitute malpractice. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=444939&forum_id=2#6119290) |
|
Date: July 2nd, 2006 1:33 PM Author: Stirring Elastic Band Church I don't think anyone has ever sat down (at least not in the last 40 years) and written a merger agreement from scratch. It would make no sense. I am often responsible for first drafts of merger agreements, but I'll stitch them together from precedents. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=444939&forum_id=2#6122953) |
|
Date: July 2nd, 2006 2:11 PM Author: fuchsia fortuitous meteor garrison Thanks for the response - so you would say that the challenge of your job lies in deciding the appropriate terms/rules/prices within somewhat standardized formats? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=444939&forum_id=2#6123191) |
|
Date: July 1st, 2006 7:14 PM Author: lascivious step-uncle's house sandwich The 7 Habits of Highly Useless Corporate Lawyers.
"Ernie from Glen Burnie", not his real name, is an unreliable but wise childhood friend of mine who likes the works of Hunter Thompson. EFGB is now a partner at a Washington, DC law firm. For years he has claimed that the following--by an unknown and long-dead lawyer, and dated 1836--was discovered during the 1980s in the ruins of an old Episcopal church in a northern Virginia town near our native DC. I would believe EFGB--except that I doubt that the word "weenie" was much in style in the antebellum American south:
1. Be risk-averse at all times. Clients have come to expect this from their lawyers. It's tradition. Honor it.
2. Tell the client only what it can't do. Business clients are run by business people who take risks. They need to be managed, guided, stopped. Don't encourage them.
3. Whatever you do, don't take a stand, and don't make a recommendation. (You don't want to be wrong, do you?)
4. Treat the client as a potential adversary at all times. Keep a distance.
5. Cover yourself. Write a lot to the client. Craft lots of confirming letters which use clauses like "it is our understanding", "our analysis is limited to..." and "we do not express an opinion as to whether..."
6. Churn up extra fees with extra letters and memoranda and tasks. Milk the engagement. (If you are going to be a weenie anyway, you might as well be a sneaky weenie.)
7. As out-house counsel, you are American royalty. Never forget that. |
|
Date: July 2nd, 2006 1:35 PM Author: Stirring Elastic Band Church There are many firms for which this is 100% accurate. Mine, fortunately, is not one of them. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=444939&forum_id=2#6122963) |
|
Date: January 12th, 2008 12:12 PM Author: Orange area scourge upon the earth (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=444939&forum_id=2#9151348) |