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Just read the CHIPS Act, not flame. AMA
Poast new message in this thread
Date: August 2nd, 2022 1:06 AM Author: Ultramarine Volcanic Crater Highlighted and commented on the relevant provisions in advance of an upcoming meeting with someone in the semiconductor industry.
EDIT: meeting is purely SOCIAL and was planned weeks before this was announced |
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Date: August 2nd, 2022 1:06 AM Author: aromatic sadistic really tough guy thats why pelosi is in taiwan isnt it? some insider trading shit (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5165528&forum_id=2#44950840) |
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Date: August 2nd, 2022 1:14 AM Author: Ultramarine Volcanic Crater The bill only allows for about $500mm to be spent on any kind of bullshit like that in the next two years and it has to go through the State Dept, USAID and two shitagencies to get cleared. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5165528&forum_id=2#44950859) |
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Date: August 2nd, 2022 1:15 AM Author: Crawly Overrated Box Office She’ll find a way. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5165528&forum_id=2#44950865) |
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Date: August 4th, 2022 10:55 PM Author: Ultramarine Volcanic Crater The news is full of these foreign firms saying they'll open fabs here but that's going to require a series of really difficult policy calls up front. If Samsung makes chips here I don't think they'll be chips for Galaxy phones unless they want to move those fabs out of Asia. Anything done here has to be oriented toward the domestic market and we're going to want them to license some of their tech to domestic firms. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5165528&forum_id=2#44965810) |
Date: August 2nd, 2022 1:11 AM Author: Ultramarine Volcanic Crater So I guess it's cr to have a MATURE. PROCESS. NODE. It's clear that unlocks special benefits. Except that the dood who decides if your process node is "mature" is the SecDef and he's given no guidance by COTUS.
Also if ur a nonprofit foundation like Raspberry Pi u can get all kinds of money to do in-house r&d and even make your own chips. Sounds like some geekboi fantasy. There's about $19bn set aside for this bullshit but there's no limit on when it must be obligated so right now it's this pot of money the Commerce Secretary can sit on for 200 years theoretically. Commerce can approve loans up to $75bn and use 2% to fund administrative costs but I don't think there's $75b there yet. |
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Date: August 2nd, 2022 1:12 AM Author: diverse piazza Can I get some of those gibs? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5165528&forum_id=2#44950857) |
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Date: August 2nd, 2022 1:17 AM Author: Ultramarine Volcanic Crater Yeah it's nutty. They are subsidizing every step of the chip fabrication process except mining the raw materials. I would look into the materials science side of things. Apparently the metallurgy required to make 10nm chips was the reason why several companies either couldn't do it or took forever to do it. This is also an area where Japan is currently dominant, but it seems like in ten years they could be done here. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5165528&forum_id=2#44950873) |
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Date: August 2nd, 2022 1:20 AM Author: diverse piazza I have a law degree and a Liberal Arts undergrand. How to cop semiconductor gibs? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5165528&forum_id=2#44950885) |
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Date: August 2nd, 2022 6:14 AM Author: Ultramarine Volcanic Crater Gain relevant government experience. If I join this company it will be to help them get in bed with the government. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5165528&forum_id=2#44951288) |
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Date: August 2nd, 2022 2:13 AM Author: Pearl curious associate pistol > Japan is currently dominant
Where do you get this from? Your info is so laughably outdated. You're probably thinking of Nikon and Canon ... back in the ***1990s***
Also youre thinking of LITHOGRAPHY, not metallurgy. ASML is by far the clear leader in this field. Japan isnt even close after losing their once-dominqnt position.
There are only a handful of companies that fab at "10nm": Intel, tsmc, samsung, and maybe smic. There's no japanese companies on this list.
Watch this before you further embarrass yourself: https://youtu.be/SB8qIO6Ti_M |
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Date: August 2nd, 2022 5:38 AM Author: Ultramarine Volcanic Crater I got this from a leaked PowerPoint slide someone sent me this year:
https://i.imgur.com/qIySzk2.jpg
Look at Japan leading the world in wafers and ATP tools and killing it in fab tools too, suck my dick. You're the one stuck in the 80s if you think made in Japan = cameras.
And I 100% meant metallurgy. Hyundai had to return ASML EUV lithography machines because it couldn't do the metallurgy.
Your focus on 10nm is way off too. I don't think you understand this bill. Anything under 28nm is game. |
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Date: August 2nd, 2022 10:41 AM Author: Pearl curious associate pistol I but dont even know where to begin on correcting all the misinformation.
> Hyundai had to return ASML EUV lithography machines
Hyundai is a car maker. Maybe they have some ultra secret 10nm fabs, but i doubt it.
Do you mean SK hynix that was previously owned by Hyundai?
Would love to see a link to whichever company had to get a refund on their EUV machine.
> Japan leading the world in wafers and ATP tools
These are commodity resources and services. ATP (assembly, test, package) can be and is done by anyone.
The reason Japan has a lead in wafer manufacturer is probably their long time history in semiconductor production. But the profits for wafers are modest vs the other steps. |
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Date: August 2nd, 2022 12:15 PM Author: Ultramarine Volcanic Crater You're not actually rebutting anything I said.
1. Yes I still call them Hyundai. You think Hyundai bros stopped talking to each other and doing deals just because the IMF said dat too many industry?
2. I don't give a fuck about ATP Tools and only mentioned them in passing. That said lol@ u downplaying what that shit actually involves. I bet u don't know what country constitutes "other" in the category but I do. You're focusing on assembly and packaging, ignoring the TESTING.
3. Yes Japan is coasting on its legacy. It doesn't want filthy semiconductor fabs on Japanese territory. That's why wafer manufacturing is ripe for picking
4. You talk about EUV like all you need to do is turn on this machine and go to town. NO. You need to have a substrate you can actually etch with the fuckin thing. ASML will sell you the lithography equipment, but if your in house r&d team can't develop an actual form of matter that provides the desired reaction to EUV lasers, what good is the equipment? There are metallurgists on these r&d teams, so I refer to this whole area of r&d generally as "metallurgy." If you come up with a better name I'll use it instead. |
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Date: August 3rd, 2022 3:19 PM Author: Pearl curious associate pistol > better name
Lithography, or photo lithography |
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Date: August 3rd, 2022 3:23 PM Author: Ultramarine Volcanic Crater I don't know how much you know about the physics of this, but it's not that simple. Manipulating matter with photons requires you have extremely precise control of photons, but it also requires you have some sort of matter that can be etched or whatever. That's why black people don't get sunburned. The people who designed the photon emitter, ASML, only design photon emitters. They don't tell you what to aim the photons at. They say "our machines emit photons with the following characteristics, would you like to buy one?" and don't ask further questions about what you intend to do with it.
So if you're buying one of these machines, you need to be pretty sure you have access to some kind of wafer you can etch. And since no one else even has access to this equipment, no one else can make those wafers except YOU. |
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Date: August 3rd, 2022 3:29 PM Author: Ultramarine Volcanic Crater PS silcon is a metalloid:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicon |
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Date: August 3rd, 2022 3:40 PM Author: Pearl curious associate pistol > no one else can make those wafers except YOU
Demonstrably false. You can buy wafers at lots of places. There's nothing particularly special about the wafers.
You can go here and order to your heart's content: https://www.universitywafer.com/silicon_wafers.html They're usable for EUV: https://www.universitywafer.com/extreme-ultraviolet-lithography-euv-silicon-wafers.html
Making the lasers (and EUV machines) is credibly difficult.
The hard part is getting lasers to emit at or close to x-ray wavelengths (extreme ultra-violet [euv] is close). The essential problem with lasers is that at high energy levels when you pump atoms with such energy levels, you start ionizing the atom rather than getting the atom electrons gain and release energy in the form of photons. |
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Date: August 3rd, 2022 3:43 PM Author: Ultramarine Volcanic Crater I read Hynix struggled to make wafers, and showing it can be done isn't showing it can be done at scale. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5165528&forum_id=2#44958376) |
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Date: August 3rd, 2022 3:47 PM Author: Pearl curious associate pistol When you read/heard about the difficulty of "making wafers," maybe it's referring to completed wafers (i.e., with the processor dies completed on the wafer)?
There's no way making the raw wafer is "hard" (as the link above demonstrates). |
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Date: August 3rd, 2022 3:50 PM Author: Ultramarine Volcanic Crater It could have been a cover story for all I know. The deal looked awful. All it could do was accelerate movement of this technology to China's hands. Even if Hynix didn't have the balls to build the factory in China, it is still not a company we should be in bed with. We shouldn't be working with any korean firms if we can help it. We shouldn't even need TSMC.
Filthy Dutch tried to sell us out on that Hynix deal too. Fuck them. |
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Date: August 3rd, 2022 4:54 PM Author: Pearl curious associate pistol The way out of dependence on either Samsung or TSMC is financing Intel. But Intel is so big that we might need to split them up like AT&T/Ma Bell. It's too much to expect new entrants to acquire all the knowhow and tech to build at the leading edge nodes. Also, there needs to be mandatory "minority" hiring (i.e., hiring white guys because there are way too many Indians in middle management).
China's SMIC allegedly has a process using the older DUV machines that's close to "7nm". It's probably not as power efficient or economically competitive with actual EUV fabs because the older DUV machines are essentially like drawing with large and fat brushes while EUV lets your draw with finer lines. |
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Date: August 3rd, 2022 5:08 PM Author: Ultramarine Volcanic Crater I think everything you're saying is widely understood to be the case. I'm only saying the money is there for people who know how to reach out and grab it. This is money that wasn't previously available before.
Here's one thing I'm thinking about: circuit board recycling. We offshore that because it's filthy. How do we fix that? We have a fuckton of precious metals we are throwing in LANDFILLS in this country because it's too expensive to export them to Vietnam or the Jones Act or I don't even know. |
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Date: August 3rd, 2022 5:13 PM Author: Ultramarine Volcanic Crater Here's something to think about: suppose Apple decides to build a fab to make Bionic processors. Antitrust issue?
Hypo: Govt asks Apple "what are u gonna do with these chips?" Apple says "we're gonna sell them to the whole world, for money." |
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Date: August 3rd, 2022 3:48 PM Author: Ultramarine Volcanic Crater bro that web site doesn't say they sell wafers for EUV lithography. They sell wafers, but their page on EUV lithography specifically says only two companies are doing it. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5165528&forum_id=2#44958400) |
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Date: August 3rd, 2022 3:52 PM Author: Pearl curious associate pistol "UniversityWafer sells both the Silicon Wafers and the Quartz used to for EUV lithography."
https://www.universitywafer.com/extreme-ultraviolet-lithography-euv-silicon-wafers.html |
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Date: August 3rd, 2022 3:56 PM Author: Ultramarine Volcanic Crater I couldn't find any for sale but the menu system is shitty on my phone. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5165528&forum_id=2#44958441) |
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Date: August 3rd, 2022 3:42 PM Author: Pearl curious associate pistol Intel gets a hot of flack for failures at the "10nm" node. One of the reasons was their attempt to push DUV (not EUV) to the limits of the technology.
Once you get EUV machines, none of the fabs seem to have problems putting out chips at "7nm" and beyond. |
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Date: August 3rd, 2022 3:45 PM Author: Ultramarine Volcanic Crater Hynix was cancelling deals with ASML and they said it was because they couldn't make the wafers. If I read wrong correct me. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5165528&forum_id=2#44958384) |
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Date: August 3rd, 2022 3:50 PM Author: Pearl curious associate pistol No offense, but you might be mixing up what you read/heard.
Intel was the company having the hardest time mass producing at "10nm" (partly because they were pushing the boundaries of DUV tech). |
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Date: August 3rd, 2022 3:51 PM Author: Ultramarine Volcanic Crater I've been pretty consistent that I'm talking about EUV lithography. Hynix had big contracts with ASML it cancelled. The most recent contract was cancelled due to diplomatic pressure. The earlier one the backed out of, they claimed, because they couldn't get wafers. I don't know what the details were. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5165528&forum_id=2#44958415) |
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Date: August 3rd, 2022 4:00 PM Author: Pearl curious associate pistol SK Hynix Starts Manufacturing 1anm DRAM Using EUV Lithography https://www.tomshardware.com/news/sk-hynix-1anm-dram-euv
SK Hynix applies EUV to DRAM production https://www.zdnet.com/article/sk-hynix-applies-euv-to-dram-production/
I did find articles stating that GlobalFoundaries (fab spin off from AMD) abandoned their "7nm" process. So was it GlobalFoundaires that you're thinking of? |
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Date: August 3rd, 2022 4:03 PM Author: Ultramarine Volcanic Crater It could have been GF but this was long before November 2021. I didn't hear it from a public source, I just read it in an email from a dude who invests in this stuff. He just said it in an offhand way, like "well fuck them I guess they can't do 10nm" and didn't say anything else about it. I didn't ask him for a link. He could have be wrong. Maybe he had GF confused with Hynix. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5165528&forum_id=2#44958478) |
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Date: August 3rd, 2022 4:10 PM Author: Pearl curious associate pistol The 10nm stuff is Intel -- they had very embarrassing failures here. Their 10nm process is probably similar to others' 7nm (the numbers are just numbers and bear no relationship to the transistor elements).
The cancellation of EUV plans appears to be Global Foundaries. Development of 7nm nodes is insanely expensive. The EUV machines are insanely expensive. A company like Intel can afford to fail here because they're much bigger, much better capitalized. (They bigger than TSMC in revenue). Global Foundaries is NOT a company that can just afford to waste billions on pushing the bleeding edge. They seem to admit as much in what I'm reading. |
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Date: August 3rd, 2022 5:42 PM Author: Ultramarine Volcanic Crater I'm not even thinking of this as something that's meant to put a 5nm fab in every back yard kind of initiative. You don't have to be doing bleeding edge tech to participate. 28nm is what Valen claims Russia can do. That's your real competition here. Yes Intel has a role but there's an intelligent division of labor. We're not even necessarily interested in SoCs or CPUs. That's not what caused the car shortage. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5165528&forum_id=2#44958938) |
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Date: August 3rd, 2022 4:17 PM Author: Pearl curious associate pistol > read it in an email from a dude who invests in this stuff
🤣
Just a little better than getting tips from counterstrike.
Only rely on XO for your investing news! |
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Date: August 3rd, 2022 4:27 PM Author: Ultramarine Volcanic Crater I didn't "rely" on it because it's not even remotely relevant to my main point, which is that the range of skills that will be in demand is broad. Maybe the metallurgy isn't that "advanced" in that engineers can pick it up pretty quickly, but we're talking about a bill that says "go train engineers that can do that, there's more money coming in year x if you hit this milestone." xo is looking at tiktok sluts saying America is all fat blue haired losers and this bill is say "that's true, get a job."
Furthermore I picked this precisely because I thought "metallurgy" would be relatively easy for the average idiot to pick up. Who doesn't like melting things? If you like that shit, you can go to work in the semiconductor industry now. Don't you see how awesome that is? THAT was my point. The old advice was "go be a plumber," but now it's "go learn metallurgy." |
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Date: August 3rd, 2022 3:23 PM Author: Pearl curious associate pistol Anyone old enough to remember the memory "dumping" fiasco by the Japanese? Japan tried killing off the USA semiconductor industry by selling their memory so cheap ("dumping") that there'd be no reason to buy from USA companies. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5165528&forum_id=2#44958305) |
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Date: August 3rd, 2022 3:23 PM Author: Ultramarine Volcanic Crater All engineered by Micron, a shitfirm that just happened to be in the right place at the right time. And yes, that's the blueprint for all of this. That was our first blow against MITI. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5165528&forum_id=2#44958307) |
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Date: August 3rd, 2022 3:29 PM Author: grizzly aggressive area I’m skeptical that dumping is a real thing. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5165528&forum_id=2#44958316) |
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Date: August 3rd, 2022 3:30 PM Author: Ultramarine Volcanic Crater It's not. The fact that it was engineered by the Reagan administration in Milton Friedman's America tells you it was about something else. And Micron wasn't even the first dumping case. There were dumping allegations against Sony TVs before that. Micron made it a national security issue. They said "you can't make jets without Japanese chips!" (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5165528&forum_id=2#44958319) |
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Date: August 3rd, 2022 3:50 PM Author: grizzly aggressive area Vietnamese crawfish is a big one. Canadian lumber. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5165528&forum_id=2#44958404) |
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Date: August 3rd, 2022 3:54 PM Author: Ultramarine Volcanic Crater Oh yeah I'm down with banning anything aquatic from Vietnam, doesn't matter why it's coming in or for what purpose, not even museum specimens. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5165528&forum_id=2#44958432) |
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Date: August 3rd, 2022 4:36 PM Author: Pearl curious associate pistol WTF. How does the US not get all its mini-lobsters off the gulf of mexico? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5165528&forum_id=2#44958626) |
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Date: August 3rd, 2022 5:28 PM Author: Ultramarine Volcanic Crater Vietnamese don't give a fuck about the environment. We should offer them an exclusive metals recycling gig. Something that doesn't require a technology transfer but just further pollutes their country. Libs say it's all gonna sink anyway in 100 years. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5165528&forum_id=2#44958877) |
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Date: August 26th, 2025 7:39 PM Author: https://imgur.com/a/o2g8xYK Bump in memory of 13th and 14th gen Intel chips that died from OXIDATION right after I maed this poast (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5165528&forum_id=2#49214710) |
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Date: August 2nd, 2022 1:16 AM Author: Crawly Overrated Box Office Which states/companies benefit the most? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5165528&forum_id=2#44950867) |
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Date: August 2nd, 2022 1:20 AM Author: Ultramarine Volcanic Crater I really expected to see obvious corporate giveaways but didn't spot any. To get access to some of the money you have to describe the intended user and what markets ur targeting. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5165528&forum_id=2#44950882) |
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Date: August 3rd, 2022 3:32 PM Author: garnet talented mental disorder round eye Intel, AMD, ARM, the big ones only really (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5165528&forum_id=2#44958324) |
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Date: August 3rd, 2022 8:16 PM Author: Ultramarine Volcanic Crater Only if they want to make chips here in America. ARM is getting fucked on this AFAICT because not an American company and most ARM chips are made in Asia. We should probably be getting away from SoCs altogether and focusing on semiconductors that only perform a limited range of tasks, like the chips in the remote control on your garage door opener. Seriously. This isn't the government saying we have to get to 3nm before China gets to 7nm. The vast majority of integrated circuits don't require anything like that to perform routine tasks like monitor the wheel speed on a car and trigger the ABS. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5165528&forum_id=2#44959685) |
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Date: August 3rd, 2022 3:34 PM Author: Ultramarine Volcanic Crater Question assumes facts not in evidence (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5165528&forum_id=2#44958329) |
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Date: August 2nd, 2022 1:20 AM Author: irate point kitty cat (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5165528&forum_id=2#44950884) |
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Date: August 2nd, 2022 1:20 AM Author: appetizing navy shrine milk the spicy noodles must flow (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5165528&forum_id=2#44950886) |
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Date: August 2nd, 2022 5:40 AM Author: Insane Sepia Senate Jesus, the CHIPS Act (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5165528&forum_id=2#44951233) |
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Date: November 13th, 2024 12:20 PM Author: Dashing Buff School Roast Beef (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5165528&forum_id=2#48331473) |
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Date: August 2nd, 2022 5:42 AM Author: Wonderful cruel-hearted public bath gaming laptop please rephrase 'AMA' in you're thread title to TAKING Q'S. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5165528&forum_id=2#44951235) |
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Date: August 2nd, 2022 6:16 AM Author: bearded candlestick maker pozpig Are you a Lawgineer? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5165528&forum_id=2#44951289) |
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Date: August 2nd, 2022 6:21 AM Author: Ultramarine Volcanic Crater I'm a lawyer who knows a bit about this industry. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5165528&forum_id=2#44951291) |
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Date: August 2nd, 2022 6:36 AM Author: bearded candlestick maker pozpig What Clique are patent lawyers? Like why do these Nerds eschew Engineering? Do they just want to wear suits? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5165528&forum_id=2#44951324) |
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Date: August 2nd, 2022 9:45 AM Author: Ultramarine Volcanic Crater No idea I don't fuck around in that area. My interest is in things like corporate espionage. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5165528&forum_id=2#44951632) |
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Date: August 2nd, 2022 10:21 AM Author: honey-headed fortuitous meteor gas station Who wrote it, Estrada? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5165528&forum_id=2#44951762) |
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Date: August 3rd, 2022 3:23 PM Author: grizzly aggressive area (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5165528&forum_id=2#44958304) |
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Date: August 2nd, 2022 10:42 AM Author: stirring state digit ratio Will this actually result in a meaningful increase in domestic production? I am skeptical. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5165528&forum_id=2#44951859) |
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Date: August 3rd, 2022 4:07 PM Author: Ultramarine Volcanic Crater It's not even about "production" so much as supply chain, but at a minimum it should avoid us experiencing the supply chain crunch that occurred during COVID. That's when we realized we not only still had this bombed out shell of a semiconductor industry, but that we actually needed it really bad. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5165528&forum_id=2#44958492) |
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Date: August 2nd, 2022 11:02 AM Author: vigorous site haunted graveyard should we buy ATOM stock? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5165528&forum_id=2#44951962) |
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Date: August 2nd, 2022 12:16 PM Author: Pearly marketing idea Isn't half of it pork for climate change bs (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5165528&forum_id=2#44952307) |
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Date: August 3rd, 2022 3:25 PM Author: grizzly aggressive area No. That’s a different bill. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5165528&forum_id=2#44958310) |
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Date: August 3rd, 2022 10:02 PM Author: Ultramarine Volcanic Crater No. Education grants and job training have to prioritize certain groups, but there are ways of exploiting this I think, like hiring a bunch of people with autism and claiming them as "disabled." (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5165528&forum_id=2#44960248) |
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Date: August 2nd, 2022 12:17 PM Author: Pearly marketing idea Also don't recipients only have to have a min of 5% US workforce (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5165528&forum_id=2#44952310) |
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Date: August 3rd, 2022 5:51 PM Author: Turquoise Sex Offender Factory Reset Button ljl (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5165528&forum_id=2#44958980) |
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Date: August 3rd, 2022 7:12 PM Author: Ultramarine Volcanic Crater It's gonna take a long time and a lot of money to make this happen bro. But if it costs 100 trillion dollars we're gonna do it. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5165528&forum_id=2#44959388) |
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Date: August 3rd, 2022 3:22 PM Author: grizzly aggressive area Are grants/loans/tax breaks available to contractors who help build semiconductor facilities, but are not in the semiconductor business. For example, if a contractor needs to build its own clean room, which will be used to support semiconductor construction, can this be financed under the act.
Are benefits available for just contractors working on semiconductor projects? Like laying cement and shit. |
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Date: August 3rd, 2022 3:38 PM Author: Ultramarine Volcanic Crater Ab so fucking LUTELY. You just need to reframe your state of mind. You ARE now in the semiconductor business. You're telling your story to the government, explaining why you're in the business and why they should trust you. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5165528&forum_id=2#44958351) |
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Date: August 3rd, 2022 3:48 PM Author: grizzly aggressive area Can you link a good summary of the process and what’s available? I read the bill yesterday, but it has so many references to other laws. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5165528&forum_id=2#44958398) |
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Date: August 3rd, 2022 4:08 PM Author: Ultramarine Volcanic Crater I can't without crossing a lot of lines. I myself am only daydreaming at this point. I have not committed to any course action, discussed any employment offers, offered any sort of legal advice, etc. This isn't even my practice area. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5165528&forum_id=2#44958500) |
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Date: August 3rd, 2022 4:13 PM Author: Ultramarine Volcanic Crater Here's what I think the law is getting at from a policy perspective.
It wants to build a supply chain that serves multiple purposes:
1. ensures resiliency and insulates us from supply chain shocks
2. minimizes reliance on foreign trading partners we don't fully trust
3. creates jerbs for smart and dumb people, all kinds by funneling them through a kind of vo-tec system that lands you a spot "in the industry."
4. gets us some companies that make kickass products that can compete globally
5. doesn't give us phone apps and more gay consumer smart devices at Target
6. isn't sold in Russia or Iran
There are some other things I'm probably forgetting, but off the top of my head it's kinda set up like that.
There are also some other things I don't feel comfortable talking about. |
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Date: August 3rd, 2022 4:15 PM Author: Ultramarine Volcanic Crater Oh, and here's a neat game you can play: come up with of a mental list of companies that get jack shit out of this bill. Some of mine include:
Amazon Microsoft Apple Netflix Google |
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Date: August 3rd, 2022 7:32 PM Author: grizzly aggressive area Bro, I have more practical needs. I just want to know who to ask for money and when and what I have to show. I've traced the majority of the giveaways to Commerce. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5165528&forum_id=2#44959477) |
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Date: August 3rd, 2022 7:48 PM Author: Ultramarine Volcanic Crater I don't know shit about Commerce. I'm looking at the stuff that goes through SecDef. It looks to me like anything non-legacy that DoD supports will have guaranteed support from Commerce anyway, since it's going to hit all the wickets on intended uses and such. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5165528&forum_id=2#44959576) |
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Date: August 3rd, 2022 7:52 PM Author: grizzly aggressive area Jesus, the CHIPS Act (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5165528&forum_id=2#44959594) |
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Date: August 3rd, 2022 5:11 PM Author: Odious temple halford does it really have a stipulation that we must make a "return" mission to the moon? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5165528&forum_id=2#44958780) |
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Date: August 3rd, 2022 6:39 PM Author: Pearl curious associate pistol not flame: https://spacenews.com/nasa-authorization-included-in-chips-act/?preview_id=129736 (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5165528&forum_id=2#44959240) |
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Date: August 3rd, 2022 9:40 PM Author: Odious temple halford im glad that in our frenzied zeal to restart domestic semi fabrication we found time to give boeing more money for the worthless and already obsolete sls (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5165528&forum_id=2#44960111) |
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Date: August 3rd, 2022 9:44 PM Author: Ultramarine Volcanic Crater You have to consider the incentive structures this creates relative to any other alternative. Would you prefer all that domestic R&D instead be done in house at Apple so they could make 60% profit margins on China-made products? Should the government invest even one penny in that? Would you rather the government subsidize technology that's only ever used for internal government purposes and never spills into the consumer marketplace? This is one of the few areas of high tech r&d where the government can pay someone other than Lockheed to do some of this high tech r&d. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5165528&forum_id=2#44960129) |
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Date: August 3rd, 2022 10:52 PM Author: Odious temple halford even when the govt needs to pay someone other than lockheed to solve their problems, they still find a way to cut lockheed in. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5165528&forum_id=2#44960457) |
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Date: August 4th, 2022 12:54 AM Author: Ultramarine Volcanic Crater It's very hard to get in on the ground with DoD because the first thing they want to know is "have you contracted with us before" and "what kind of evaluations did we give you?" It's often easier to just team up with Lockheed. That's the kind of thing where I personally am seeing the most opportunity here. The govt still wants that level of trust but many of the companies best positioned to get that money don't have a reputation they can trade on. They are tasked with developing technology to protect are most sensitive secrets but they will have Chinese engineers, maybe. I noticed there's no provision for expanding H1Bs. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5165528&forum_id=2#44960956) |
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Date: August 3rd, 2022 7:21 PM Author: Elite nibblets I own 200 patents in the chip space (not flame). Older processes ~2000-2008ish tech. I do not have anything other than paper company holding these assets. Anything I can do? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5165528&forum_id=2#44959431) |
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Date: August 3rd, 2022 7:31 PM Author: Elite nibblets bump (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5165528&forum_id=2#44959470) |
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Date: August 3rd, 2022 10:09 PM Author: Pearl curious associate pistol I would bet good money you're mistaken about personally "owning" 200 patents.
Have you ever paid a patent maintenance fee? (Hint, the 4th year maintenance fees ALONE is about 200k for your 200 patents). |
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Date: August 3rd, 2022 11:36 PM Author: Elite nibblets yes. i run one of the most prolific NPEs in the world. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5165528&forum_id=2#44960623) |
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Date: August 3rd, 2022 11:59 PM Author: Pearl curious associate pistol I see, you're an npe and not just an individual.
You're a really small fish in the world of npes with 200 patents. Need to up your patent count. |
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Date: August 4th, 2022 12:03 AM Author: Snowy double fault Can I assert some of your patents (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5165528&forum_id=2#44960754) |
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Date: August 4th, 2022 12:17 AM Author: Pearl curious associate pistol All patent trolls are extremely active -- as they should be.
But the system has been trying to kill off a large majority of the litigation.
Venue has been restricted. Northern CA and Delaware are very hostile jurisdictions. They'll kill your patent if it's at all too vague. |
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Date: August 4th, 2022 12:23 AM Author: Snowy double fault Delaware isn’t too bad. Plaintiffs win there all the time. NDCAL is a death zone. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5165528&forum_id=2#44960850) |
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Date: August 4th, 2022 12:40 AM Author: Pearl curious associate pistol I remember NDCA was bad and DED was close behind... looking at more recent data, it appears ndca is still awful with ded at around 50% invalidation rate. That's kinda terrible.
They should give refunds if the court invalidates your patent. Reliance cause of action against the uspto? |
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Date: August 4th, 2022 10:51 PM Author: Snowy double fault It depends on the quality of your patent. If you don’t have 101 issues you will be fine in DE. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5165528&forum_id=2#44965789) |
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Date: August 4th, 2022 12:26 AM Author: Ultramarine Volcanic Crater There's no reason the govt can't demand you turn over certain IP rights in exchange for this financing. The way this is written it looks like DoD intends to flat out acquire some of this "legacy" tech and bring it in house like they did with Abrams tank production when costs got absurd. You may have facilities that don't produce a lot of chips but that maintain the capability to make them on a dime if necessary, all for military use. You can think of this almost as nationalization of legacy tech. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5165528&forum_id=2#44960871) |
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Date: August 4th, 2022 12:46 AM Author: Pearl curious associate pistol This is all sounding great. But the devil is in the details. Im also afraid there'll be all sorts of BS ESG crap in there. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5165528&forum_id=2#44960941) |
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Date: August 4th, 2022 1:41 AM Author: Ultramarine Volcanic Crater I think state regulators are going to be a bigger problem. If EPA is standing in the way of another Federal agency, the POTUS can always intervene and tell EPA to issue a policy exception. State governments can't directly regulate the feds due to the supremacy clause, but if you're a private org doing something that requires a state permit the feds can't help you with that.
I think the economics of this are cockeyed too. Ordinarily EPA regulations would be a barrier entry, but in this case the government will help finance compliance costs, so it may end up being a wash. |
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Date: August 3rd, 2022 10:15 PM Author: Pearl curious associate pistol The 8th year maintenance fees for the 200 patents is around 400,000.
You paid $200,000 for the 4th year, and then $400,000 for the 8th year?
And you're here asking what to do with the patents? |
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Date: August 3rd, 2022 11:56 PM Author: Elite nibblets most patents were purchased after the 14 yr payment. had to pay a few. been hefty, but i got dat CSR wit 100k limit (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5165528&forum_id=2#44960714) |
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Date: August 4th, 2022 12:03 AM Author: Pearl curious associate pistol Glad you have the csr card. You'll be racking up mega points! |
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Date: August 4th, 2022 12:08 AM Author: Pearl curious associate pistol I havent talked to that many individual patent owners, but the few that ive talked to imagine their inventions to be the most valuable patent of all time. They would literally not sell their patent for less than millions of dollars. When they're given the more reasonable 5 to 6 figure range, most balk. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5165528&forum_id=2#44960774) |
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Date: August 3rd, 2022 10:35 PM Author: Pearl curious associate pistol Not to mention the legal costs for patent procurement.
Ive seen the legal budget for approx 100 patent filings and prosecution. It's well over a million.
You've financed 200 patents to the tune of $1,000,000++, but need xo's advice on monetizing? |
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Date: August 3rd, 2022 10:38 PM Author: Pearl curious associate pistol But obviously "not flame" (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5165528&forum_id=2#44960417) |
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Date: August 3rd, 2022 7:32 PM Author: grizzly aggressive area sue (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5165528&forum_id=2#44959480) |
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Date: August 3rd, 2022 8:26 PM Author: Elite nibblets no shit thats my current model. i want to build something physical again. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5165528&forum_id=2#44959747) |
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Date: August 3rd, 2022 7:48 PM Author: vigorous site haunted graveyard xo is a wild place (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5165528&forum_id=2#44959580) |
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Date: August 3rd, 2022 8:04 PM Author: Ultramarine Volcanic Crater No. This isn't the mouse race, or the dotconomy. We are not training a new generation to enhance user experience, or to make u pay $900 for a $400 device using vertical price restraints and planned obsolescence. This is Clint Eastwood during the Superbowl saying "we used to build things in things in America." We just building this stuff because it seems like the most practical, useful thing for us to build. Don't need your designs unless you can explain how they benefit America. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5165528&forum_id=2#44959640) |
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Date: August 3rd, 2022 8:26 PM Author: Elite nibblets yeah no shit. i want to build something physical in america. im wondering if the bill helps me as a patent owner. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5165528&forum_id=2#44959745) |
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Date: August 3rd, 2022 8:41 PM Author: Ultramarine Volcanic Crater The bill can help you finance startup costs but you'll have to convince one or more federal agencies that the chip meets certain needs. An easy example would be a chip that handles encryption for a phone that will only ever be used by the US government. No commercially available device will ever have these chips. They will never be exported. The factory is in Youngstown and the lithography machines are American made. It can be up to 28nm, don't need EUV. I'm making this up but it's that kind of thing. It's not like the usual bills we get where the only metric is how many jobs created and all the money has to pass through unions. There are a lot of creative options just with the education grants that will come out of this. You should be thinking about how to leverage what you have but don't get fixated on building a fab. Think about what utility it serves within the broader goals of the act. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5165528&forum_id=2#44959821) |
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Date: September 20th, 2024 6:34 PM Author: Ultramarine Volcanic Crater OP here
https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/newsroom/news/2024-intel-news.html#gs.fh30nb |
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Date: August 3rd, 2022 10:08 PM Author: Pearl curious associate pistol If you do indeed won these patents, you could seek huge licensing fees from the big players (im very skeptical you actually own the patents because no one person would be able to afford the legal costs of this).
You sure you didnt sign an assignment agreement either for all patents or for them individually.
If you really personally own the patents, you could get a lot of money for them.
One of the most recent billion dollar patent judgments was for a cpu invention. |
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Date: August 3rd, 2022 10:09 PM Author: Ultramarine Volcanic Crater I assume the designs have to have some utility. You can just bring a chip design to fruition because someone took the time to design it. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5165528&forum_id=2#44960286) |
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Date: August 3rd, 2022 10:13 PM Author: Pearl curious associate pistol Patent litigation is bullshit. It is untethered from real life usefulness or "inventiveness" of the patents.
Edit: that is to say, it could he incredibly lucrative to sue for patent infringement. |
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Date: August 3rd, 2022 10:44 PM Author: Ultramarine Volcanic Crater Sure but you can't sell that to commerce department and they will want extensive due diligence on your designs. I really think people at missing the big picture by thinking this is about fabs making chips. It's really about all the things that happen before and after the chips are made and where the government sees value. This is a total rejection of neoliberal economics in that you're not really allowed to weigh any of the factors that usually go into planning for this kind of investment. This isn't easy money by any means. The people administering these programs at these agencies don't even know what their marching orders will be. They aren't staffed for this. Their internal guidance will be vague and will hand lots of discretion to individual officers because no one will know how to write comprehensive guidance until there's been a lot of trial and error. A lot of it will depend on the whims of the POTUS. A lot of relationship building will have to occur. A lot of borrowers will have to fuck up and be given second chances because the govt will have to admit that "even we didn't see that coming." I'm never going to be able to retire. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5165528&forum_id=2#44960431) |
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Date: August 4th, 2022 1:12 AM Author: brass masturbator You working with a lit financing firm? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5165528&forum_id=2#44961006) |
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Date: August 4th, 2022 11:01 PM Author: Ultramarine Volcanic Crater Biz idea: design a chip that can be made without hiring a single foreign worker. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5165528&forum_id=2#44965843) |
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Date: August 3rd, 2022 8:11 PM Author: Excitant Private Investor is TSMC fucked (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5165528&forum_id=2#44959665) |
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Date: August 3rd, 2022 8:17 PM Author: Ultramarine Volcanic Crater No, Taiwan just needs US statehood. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5165528&forum_id=2#44959687) |
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Date: August 3rd, 2022 11:54 PM Author: Elite nibblets no
mediatek also not fucked
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Date: August 4th, 2022 12:26 AM Author: Snowy double fault They will build in the US (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5165528&forum_id=2#44960866) |
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Date: August 4th, 2022 1:01 AM Author: Ultramarine Volcanic Crater And cut some licensing deals if they know what's good for them. The best way for asians to get us hooked on their tech is to offer cheap up front licensing for American companies to use it. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5165528&forum_id=2#44960971) |
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Date: August 4th, 2022 1:05 AM Author: Pearl curious associate pistol In Arizona no less.
Little do they know, AZ gets its water from the colorado and with a few more bad drought years means a completely dry river. Their az fab will be useless. |
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Date: August 3rd, 2022 9:44 PM Author: Odious temple halford any EPA regulatory reform? can i start dumping gallium in my backyard like SV in the 60's? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5165528&forum_id=2#44960128) |
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Date: August 3rd, 2022 9:57 PM Author: Ultramarine Volcanic Crater No and it's not just EPA that needs to be unfucked. The EPA makes it expensive to recycle circuit boards, but the Jones Act makes it hard to ship them to Asia. I'm told Hawaiians throw all their scrap metal in landfills because the govt makes them pay to dispose of it. It costs $500 to dispose of a car there, so of course every circuit board goes in a landfill. We could send this stuff to Asia but Jones Act says Chinese ships delivering goods to Hawaii can't load up with scrap metal to take back to China. They have to sail these cargo ships empty.
If we're looking to end our reliance on imports we could start recycling circuit boards, but to meet EPA regs you need cash up front, so it seems like you could apply for financing to get this started. But the US Navy is also sailing all these ships into Hawaii and dumping off jet fuel in the water table, so why can't they ferry some of that scrap metal out of Hawaiian landfills to wherever else in America it's being recycled? I don't think it hurts to think proactively like this when making pitches to DoD. |
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Date: August 3rd, 2022 11:54 PM Author: Elite nibblets "meanwhile... at globalfoundries" (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5165528&forum_id=2#44960706) |
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Date: August 4th, 2022 12:05 AM Author: hyperactive spectacular national Any diversity bullshit stealthily injected into it? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5165528&forum_id=2#44960761) |
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Date: August 4th, 2022 12:09 AM Author: Ultramarine Volcanic Crater Of course but it's easy to exploit since autism and ADHD count as disabilities. I seriously think Hawaii needs to get Hawaii natives hooked up with DoD like Alaska Native Corporations. It's a mistake to think diversity == Darnell.
But also it doesn't matter because your company doesn't actually have to be competitive in the traditional sense. You're not necessarily trying to deliver he best product at the lowest price. You might have to hire minorities to go makework, but so does everyone else trying to get that money. That's just government being a "model employer." So you have some diverse employees who don't do much but the government is subsidizing it so who cares? |
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Date: August 4th, 2022 12:20 AM Author: Ultramarine Volcanic Crater I think the real value will end up being in Hubzones. Sometimes you can shortcut the diversity bullshit by building out in these census tracts that are designated poor. Maybe you bring in a service disabled vet as a partner if you're interfacing with DoD. The agencies administering these grants already have their own internal regulations that will have to mesh with whatever implementation guidance comes out of the bill, and then every four years you get a POTUS who issues an executive order that shakes things up. I think that's the real danger since the govt can do shit like require all your workers get vaxxed. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5165528&forum_id=2#44960840) |
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Date: August 4th, 2022 12:21 AM Author: Narrow-minded up-to-no-good location wagecucks Did ponche get a new partner? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5165528&forum_id=2#44960846) |
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Date: August 4th, 2022 12:55 AM Author: Flesh becky Anything on tariffs? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5165528&forum_id=2#44960957) |
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Date: August 4th, 2022 1:03 AM Author: Ultramarine Volcanic Crater You wouldn't put that in a bill like this. You give some exec branch dood authority to determine whether company x is dumping and make them fight it out with that agency. Have a skeleton crew in the underfunded office that makes the determination so that you have an excuse for not returning calls. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5165528&forum_id=2#44960975) |
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Date: August 4th, 2022 1:15 AM Author: Flesh becky How much overlap does CHIPS have with USICA? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5165528&forum_id=2#44961017) |
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Date: August 4th, 2022 1:20 AM Author: Ultramarine Volcanic Crater I didn't really see any but they are different kinds of legislation. USICA is heavy on authorizations ("the secretary is authorized/the secretary shall...") but light on appropriations. This bill comes with a bunch of authorizations, but there's real appropriations language attached to it right up front. It's all wacky because it's being done outside the normal budget process, like how Bush would come back for "supplemental appropriations" for Iraq ever 3-4 months after the FY budget was already passed. Except at least those numbers came from Bush before they went to Congress. This time I don't know where the numbers are coming from. They say some Indiana dood wrote this but where'd he get the numbers? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5165528&forum_id=2#44961038) |
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Date: September 20th, 2024 6:32 PM Author: Ultramarine Volcanic Crater https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/newsroom/news/2024-intel-news.html#gs.fh30nb (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5165528&forum_id=2#48114515) |