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V5 Hours Comparison (2003-2006 Data)
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Date: October 31st, 2006 10:22 PM Author: concupiscible insecure space roommate Not exactly V5, but here's a small breakdown of the hours worked and billed averaged across the 2003-2006 AMLAW surveys:
Cravath, Swaine & Moore LLP 64.3 54.875 Sullivan & Cromwell 64.475 54.4 Davis Polk & Wardwell 60.375 48.775 Simpson Thacher 58.75 49.3 Debevoise & Plimpton LLP 57.425 46.075
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Date: October 31st, 2006 10:28 PM Author: vivacious white stage trump supporter 10 hours a day, 6 days a week. But hey, at least you'll have Sunday off.
Actually, if you work at Cravath you can take every other Sunday off.
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Date: October 31st, 2006 10:29 PM Author: Pale parlour subtle simpson trolling, they are V6, don't forget. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=516777&forum_id=2#6895795) |
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Date: October 31st, 2006 10:32 PM Author: concupiscible insecure space roommate Hmm, if you're in doubt you can go over the 2003-2006 surveys and calculate the hours yourself. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=516777&forum_id=2#6895827) |
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Date: October 31st, 2006 10:34 PM Author: Pale parlour I was talking about putting Simpson and V5 in the same thread. I didn't even look at the hours. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=516777&forum_id=2#6895844) |
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Date: October 31st, 2006 10:34 PM Author: insanely creepy fantasy-prone resort Checked Debevoise's Vault ranking lately? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=516777&forum_id=2#6895848) |
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Date: October 31st, 2006 10:35 PM Author: Pale parlour yes, but I said "subtle trolling" (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=516777&forum_id=2#6895855) |
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Date: October 31st, 2006 10:35 PM Author: concupiscible insecure space roommate Ah...
That's why I said not exactly V5. I left out Skadden because their hours are averaged across all their offices, so the hours are probably skewed more so than these NYC-centric firms. |
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Date: October 31st, 2006 10:37 PM Author: insanely creepy fantasy-prone resort I might be wrong but I seem to remember Skadden's numbers were fairly consistent with its peers, which I thought indicated it wasn't very skewed (plus I don't think e.g. Skadden LA bills significantly less than Skadden NY). (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=516777&forum_id=2#6895873) |
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Date: October 31st, 2006 10:39 PM Author: concupiscible insecure space roommate You're probably right. Someone else can do the math; I didn't care as much since I didn't interview with them. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=516777&forum_id=2#6895886) |
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Date: November 1st, 2006 12:21 AM Author: unhinged mother This Skadden argument is ludicrous. In Wilmington the average associate averages more than NY, and they only average at 2200 billables, which puts them far below 2750 which is the Cravath number if you do the math (50 weeks times 58.875).
Palo Alto and LA were the "low" offices at 2050, but no office was higher than ~2200.
I hope this ends the "YOU MUST TAKE INTO ACCOUNT SKADDEN'S MANY OFFICES" arguments when bashing Skadden. The fact is that Cravath and DPW work just as bad if not worse (according to the numbers) than Skadden.
In Wilmington, the range was between 1800 and 3000/year, with 3000 being the CLEAR OUTLIER--she was a crazy bankruptcy associate who liked working. Next highest was 2600, next after that is 2500. Out of 48 associates, 2500 is the number 3 biller? Come on folks... at DPW, 2500 makes you below the median. |
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Date: November 1st, 2006 12:39 AM Author: Pale parlour Skadden Wilmington has nothing on the local firms when it comes to DE corporate law. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=516777&forum_id=2#6897021) |
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Date: November 1st, 2006 12:40 AM Author: insanely creepy fantasy-prone resort Thank you. This is why I don't feel quite so bad about spreading unconfirmed info, because sometimes it's the only way to motivate somebody to post the real info.
Sadly, with this board's search engine, I'll probably have to spend an hour looking for this thread again in a few months. |
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Date: November 1st, 2006 2:14 PM Author: clear exhilarant half-breed Dumbass, the whole survey is based on multiple offices. Here, take a look.
Cravath: London; New York S&C: Frankfurt; Hong Kong; London; Los Angeles; Melbourne; New York; Palo Alto; Paris; Sydney Simpson: London; Los Angeles; New York; Palo Alto Skadden: Boston; Chicago; Los Angeles; New York; Washington, DC; Wilmington
Oh, but LET ME GUESS -- you got dinged at Skadden so you have to exclude Skadden's numbers (which, by the way, are significantly lower than any V5).
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Date: November 1st, 2006 2:19 PM Author: insanely creepy fantasy-prone resort I was hoping you'd be ashamed enough of your posts in the Cravath thread to shut up and stop posting nonsense. Why don't you re-read the post you replied to and actually think about the difference between Skadden's structure and e.g. STB's. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=516777&forum_id=2#6899313) |
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Date: November 1st, 2006 2:24 PM Author: clear exhilarant half-breed Don't blame me for your misread of the report.
I think it is fairly obvious that you messed up. Now you are trying to justify it with the "differences" in structure?
Come on. This is getting ridiculous. |
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Date: November 1st, 2006 2:28 PM Author: insanely creepy fantasy-prone resort What are you talking about? You were trying to criticize this post (which I did not write): "I left out Skadden because their hours are averaged across all their offices, so the hours are probably skewed more so than these NYC-centric firms."
The poster was pointing out (*correctly*) that Skadden has a far greater % of its lawyers outside NY than other top NY firms. Somehow you're trying to compare this with a firm like STB, which has like 15 people in LA of which maybe 1 replied?
And even though I asked you to read the board and do your homework, clearly you haven't, otherwise maybe you'd notice that I started this thread: http://www.xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=465663&mc=96&forum_id=2 and maybe 50 others on the topic. |
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Date: October 31st, 2006 10:30 PM Author: Marvelous sepia legal warrant link. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=516777&forum_id=2#6895808) |
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Date: October 31st, 2006 10:33 PM Author: concupiscible insecure space roommate Do a google search for "associates survey X" where X is the year. You should be pointed to the older surveys on Law.com. You'll need a registration (free) to view them. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=516777&forum_id=2#6895835) |
Date: October 31st, 2006 10:29 PM Author: Orchid Cracking Water Buffalo Address STB is very efficient (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=516777&forum_id=2#6895800) |
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Date: October 31st, 2006 10:40 PM Author: Marvelous sepia legal warrant is this customary at top v firms, or is it customary througout biglaw? midlaw? smallaw? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=516777&forum_id=2#6895898) |
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Date: October 31st, 2006 10:56 PM Author: purple odious sanctuary juggernaut what do you care hakeem? aren't you going to the nba? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=516777&forum_id=2#6896059) |
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Date: November 1st, 2006 12:17 AM Author: Mind-boggling theatre pocket flask has anyone notice on these that random firms in minneapolis and atlanta work only about 3-5 hours less a week than your average nyc firm (not cravath). (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=516777&forum_id=2#6896847) |
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Date: November 1st, 2006 12:17 AM Author: purple odious sanctuary juggernaut why yes we did, large boy. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=516777&forum_id=2#6896853) |
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Date: November 1st, 2006 10:39 AM Author: big business firm kitty cat Yeah, I think the choice turns on three things:
1) The COL adjusted salary differences are small or in favor of smaller cities
2) The reputation of NYC firms for treating their people like crap and giving them practically no shot at partnership
3) If you have a family, etc., that extra hour a day means quite a bit. It is the difference between eating with your kids and putting them to bed vs. sneaking in the house to avoid waking them. |
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Date: November 1st, 2006 2:39 AM Author: rose shrine ratface S&C and CSM work/bill just about the same hours? I don't buy it.
But if I'm wrong, I may have recently made a huge mistake. |
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Date: November 1st, 2006 10:48 AM Author: Charcoal chad Vault also suggests that S&C hours are slightly worse/longer than CSM hours. Vault survey gives CSM a 6.2, and S&C a 5.7. (A lower number means longer hours.)
Not that I trust everything Vault has to say . . . but when Vault and AmLaw match up, yes, you can bet that you'll be working just as much at S&C. Enjoy. |
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Date: November 1st, 2006 12:07 PM Author: peach arousing ladyboy I believe a lower number in the vault hours rating reflects lower satisfaction with hours, not the aggregate amount of hours. Lots of possible explanations that have nothing to do with total hours (the CSM people could've come in expecting more hours, so had less of a problem with it). (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=516777&forum_id=2#6898553) |
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Date: November 1st, 2006 2:09 PM Author: Charcoal chad "Associates rank how they feel about their hours on a scale from 'overwhelming' to 'very livable.' Please note the hours score is based on the subjective perceptions of associates, not on the actual hours they work."
So yes: it may well be that people at S&C are lazy bums who are disappointed that they actually have to work.
But given both Vault and AmLaw survey of total number of hours, it seems to me that S&C folks work as many or more hours than CSM folks. Do you have any evidence that suggests otherwise?
BTW . . . are you headed to S&C? |
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Date: November 1st, 2006 2:16 PM Author: peach arousing ladyboy I'm choosing among five firms, one of them S&C (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=516777&forum_id=2#6899294) |
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Date: November 1st, 2006 4:01 PM Author: Charcoal chad Cool . . . good for you. Are they pretty much the top pick for you right now? Why would you pick them over DPW and/or Cravath (assumign those are among the five).
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Date: November 1st, 2006 4:12 PM Author: peach arousing ladyboy I was dinged by CSM and am still waiting on DPW, so my answer probably wouldn't be that useful. For the record, I would probably take S&C over DPW regardless. I'm only minorly leaning toward S&C right now though over the rest of my options (a few others that aren't quite as prestigious at S&C, but no one would really question choosing them instead of Sullivan). (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=516777&forum_id=2#6900074) |
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Date: November 1st, 2006 2:13 PM Author: crawly pit blood rage If you made your decision based upon hours, you made a HUGE mistake. Don't feel bad, Sullivan does have an excellent litigation group. Notably, Sullivan has a good white-collar practice, which you can't get at Cravath. So you might have an easier time exiting to a USAO or something like that.
Since I was considering the same firms, I actually looked at the hours data a while back too. Here's the data in one place:
2006 2005 2004 2003 2002 AVG Cravath 65.7 69.8 63.4 58.3 59.9 63.42 Sulli 65 62.5 65.2 65.2 60.7 63.72 DPW 62.7 58.9 67.8 52.1 55.8 59.46 Wacht 69.1 71.1 - 70.8 71.2 70.55
I included Wachtell for reference, to make myself feel better about the firms that I actually had offers from. I did not get an offer there.
My conclusion from looking at the data is that all of these firms really work similar hours and I shouldn't base my decision on that. |
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Date: November 1st, 2006 2:21 PM Author: Charcoal chad Well, a difference of even four hours is actually very significant. That's almost an hour every weeknight. Or, if you spend 12 hours every weekday in the office, the difference between DPW and S&C/CSM is the difference between also having to spend half of every Saturday in the office.
Obviously, I am simplifiying, since every firm will have busier and less busy times. But the averages, at least, do make DPW look better.
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Date: November 1st, 2006 2:25 PM Author: clear exhilarant half-breed Skadden averaged 58.8 hours per week. Or about 21 less days of work per year than Cravath.
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Date: November 1st, 2006 2:35 PM Author: Charcoal chad Actually, 21 fewer days.
I get the feeling that you are going to be spending about 18.3 hours per week getting yelled at by partners for poor writing. |
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Date: November 5th, 2006 9:33 AM Author: Boyish house pwnage (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=516777&forum_id=2#6925661) |
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Date: November 1st, 2006 2:39 PM Author: Sable misunderstood lay scourge upon the earth Please respond. http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=515838&forum_id=2#6888186 |
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Date: November 1st, 2006 2:55 PM Author: crawly pit blood rage Picking between any V5 firm based on hours is fucking retarded. In most practice groups, your hours are going to be highly variable. It's not like Cravath or S&C is going to stand there with a whip and make you work those extra hours, or like a partner at Skadden is any more likely to let you go home early without finishing something he wants from you.
Picking a firm based on hours is even more short-sighted and ignorant than picking based on perceived chances at partnership. The hours are long everywhere, and most of us are not going to make partner at any V5 firm. Seriously, picking DPW over Cravath based soley on the fact that its average hours worked appear to be lower is as bad as picking S&C over Davis just because its Vault ranking is higher. It's totally arbitrary. Flip a coin instead.
That being said, when you're picking between most of these firms - other than Wacthell and Cravath - you might as well pick arbitrarily because they're all great.
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Date: November 1st, 2006 2:23 PM Author: thriller messiness national Ummm, didn't you admit in another thread to getting dings from CSM and WLRK?
http://www.xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=514098&mc=167&forum_id=2#6871313 |
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Date: November 4th, 2006 6:29 PM Author: rose shrine ratface Yes. My point was not that I should have chosen CSM (as I didn't have the choice). My point was that I didn't think S&C (which I chose over DPW and CGSH) hours were as bad as CSM. If this is truly the case, it makes S&C a less appealing choice vis a vis DPW or CGSH, as there actually is an hours vs. prestige tradeoff.
For the record, I am still very happy with my choice. |
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Date: November 1st, 2006 2:15 PM Author: clear exhilarant half-breed If anyone cares, the entire survey is based on multiple offices.
Cravath: London; New York S&C: Frankfurt; Hong Kong; London; Los Angeles; Melbourne; New York; Palo Alto; Paris; Sydney Simpson: London; Los Angeles; New York; Palo Alto Skadden: Boston; Chicago; Los Angeles; New York; Washington, DC; Wilmington
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Skadden has the least number of hours worked per week. Hope that helps.
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Date: November 1st, 2006 2:33 PM Author: Charcoal chad so skadden has the best hours, better exit ops, and better prestige, and EVEN DESPITE ALL THAT people prefer not to work there when given the choice?
Wow, something must be really dreadful happening there during the hours when you are at work . . . |
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Date: November 1st, 2006 2:43 PM Author: clear exhilarant half-breed OMG OMG, Yeah !!! HUUUUGE EXODUS --- Summer Class 2006 Skadden: Columbia 13, Harvard 11 S&C: Columbia 10, Harvard 9 Davis Polk: Columbia 13, Harvard 29 --- Dumbass. |
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Date: November 1st, 2006 2:57 PM Author: crawly pit blood rage Exodus: a journey by a large group to escape from a hostile environment.
Exodus means that people are leaving, not that they chose to go somewhere in the first place.
HTH |
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Date: November 1st, 2006 3:03 PM Author: Sable misunderstood lay scourge upon the earth Not the only problem with this post. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=516777&forum_id=2#6899608) |
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Date: November 5th, 2006 9:35 AM Author: Big-titted Soul-stirring Garrison Well done. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=516777&forum_id=2#6925666) |
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Date: November 1st, 2006 4:03 PM Author: Charcoal chad Yes, your numbers clearly demonstrate that among students who had the choice between Skadden, S&C, and Davis Polk, students tended to prefer Skadden. How could I have been so blind?
And, too bad those 29 Harvard folks going to Davis Polk couldn't get Skadden offers. They must be real idiots. |
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Date: November 1st, 2006 4:06 PM Author: insanely creepy fantasy-prone resort Vault4pwn3d! (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=516777&forum_id=2#6900020) |
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Date: November 1st, 2006 2:49 PM Author: low-t multi-colored den useless brakes the better hours, exit opportunities, and prestige ARE the reasons why law students choose skadden over a lot of other firms (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=516777&forum_id=2#6899525) |
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Date: November 1st, 2006 3:10 PM Author: thriller messiness national That, and the fact that the other firms are more selective and don't give offers to people below the median. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=516777&forum_id=2#6899649) |
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Date: November 1st, 2006 4:04 PM Author: Charcoal chad Sure, there are plenty of firms I'd choose Skadden over. E.g., Dewey, Cadwalader, etc. . . .
What's your point? |
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Date: November 5th, 2006 9:34 AM Author: Boyish house 60 hours a week? That's it? Flame. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=516777&forum_id=2#6925665) |
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Date: November 5th, 2006 9:37 AM Author: Big-titted Soul-stirring Garrison 9 a.m. to 10 p.m. every weekday, with a 1-hour lunch. That sounds too light to you? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=516777&forum_id=2#6925669) |
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Date: November 5th, 2006 9:38 AM Author: Boyish house I thought it was closer to 70 at the top NYC firms, with less lunch hours and more after 10pm hours. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=516777&forum_id=2#6925671) |
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Date: November 5th, 2006 4:34 PM Author: Charcoal chad 1 hour lunch? only secretaries and partners take one hour lunches. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=516777&forum_id=2#6927971) |