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CLS: ITT 2Ls in Fed Courts Explain Their Selfishness
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Date: January 8th, 2007 4:40 PM Author: Bright principal's office place of business 27 2Ls still in Fed Courts, taking spots from 3Ls who might want to clerk or who already have clerkships? Is this not the epitome of the competitive law student: I'm going to do what I want, and fuck what you want?
As a 2L, how can you sit in that class knowing you could be guaranteed to take it next year and you're preventing a 3L from being able to clerk?
EDIT: Please note that I'm not on the waitlist and I never was. |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 4:41 PM Author: snowy excitant school cafeteria CLS c/o '08 RULES! (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7376141) |
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Date: January 10th, 2007 2:09 PM Author: Erotic saffron stock car QuadraSLICE (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7389658) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 4:42 PM Author: Smoky feces GOI (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7376145) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 8:03 PM Author: Charcoal Aphrodisiac Kitty Cat Ape I'm not in this class, and if I was I would probably drop it because I'm a nice guy.
But the 3L's whining about this need to sack up and admit that they fucked themselves over. This is the 4th semester you could have taken Fed Courts, and you didn't take it in any of the first 3. If you HAD TO HAVE this course you should have ranked it #1. I have no sympathy for you. Why should you get an extra #1 choice just for being a dumbass? Any 2L who drops this class is doing you a favor, so get off your high horse demanding that they all drop it. There was a competitive lottery for this course, and everyone knew the rules. You fucked up. |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 8:30 PM Author: passionate dun trailer park TITCR. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7377655) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 8:41 PM Author: Bright principal's office place of business True, they fucked up, but with 1) the deal Dorf offered and 2) the recognition that 3Ls should be allowed to take it over 2Ls, the 2Ls should bow out.
Note that I was never on the waitlist. I post because I'm really surprised and disappointed at the gunner/competitive/stubborn nature of these 2Ls. Sure, there's nothing they could be disciplined for by staying in the class, but the whole thing reminds me of how people say law school used to be: cutthroat, everyone out just for themselves, etc. |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 11:28 PM Author: Sapphire Nowag I think TITCR. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7379141) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 12:04 AM Author: Arousing main people brunch i think there's a difference between being cutthroat and refusing to save people from themselves (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7379502) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 9:27 PM Author: Cheese-eating citrine nursing home Screw you, 3Ls! (is what I would say if I were a CLS 2L.) It's not my business to mop up after the mess you made.
As for: "you're preventing a 3L from being able to clerk"
I call BS. Are people in danger of losing their clerkships if they don't take the class? No. (If yes for someone, please post so I can laugh at you.) |
Date: January 8th, 2007 4:44 PM Author: bearded splenetic lodge french chef How is it that 3Ls with clerkships or who hope to clerk, who hadn't taken Fed Courts before now, didn't think to list it as their first choice? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7376159) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 4:45 PM Author: swashbuckling seedy boltzmann pistol You should drop Fed Courts and check out Asian Americans and the Law. Somebody tipped me off that it's all Asian girls. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7376173) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 4:47 PM Author: bearded splenetic lodge french chef Haha, I'm not in Fed Courts. I would rather have invasive surgery three days a week. And it looks like Asian Americans and the Law is full. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7376183) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 9:06 PM Author: lake racy friendly grandma den Too bad the Asian girls at our school are busted. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7377880) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 9:06 PM Author: lake racy friendly grandma den Good post (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7377882) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 5:18 PM Author: Thriller crimson halford Dude, I didn't sign up for fed courts, but I doubt that the 2L's who did intended to screw you over or were even aware of this problem. But this serves as a good reminder for me to put fed courts first next year. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7376421) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 5:22 PM Author: ocher yarmulke Yeah I like how all of these 3Ls are lying that they put Fed Courts #1. Impossible to do that and get beaten out by a 2L. That said, 2Ls should do the right thing and drop.
My guess is a bunch are waiting for another 4-credit course to open up, in which case they should just drop, because the 3Ls who add Fed Courts will drop other courses and open them up. |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 5:52 PM Author: Mustard box office mother TITCR re: waiting for some 4-credit alternative to open up.
Although now that each 2L sees that there are 26 other 2Ls who also have not yet budged, he/she may feel less pressured to switch out. Nobody wants to be known as one of 5-10 2Ls who dicked over some 3Ls, but an en masse dick-over doesn't make the individual 2L feel as bad about it. The power of numbers.
But at least there seemed to be one 2L in the class today who was clearly headed in the direction of dropping to make space. |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 5:56 PM Author: Vivacious Dull Kitchen Hopefully they're smart enough to get on the waitlists for such classes now.
Also, they don't really need another 4 credit class as long as they have enough to be full time. They're guaranteed a 4 credit class next fall...They should be looking at 3 credit classes as well. And seminars. And research for credit (a MUCH better way to get a good letter for a clerkship, which WON'T hurt their GPA).
I know very few 3Ls struggling for credits. I'm going to have at least 85 after this semster. 86 if I get into Fed Courts. |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 5:21 PM Author: Cream area reading party I am not a CLS 2L, nor am I in federal courts. But...
What kind of stupid law student wants to do a clerkship but (1) fails to register for it during 2L year, (2) doesn't take it during 3L fall semester, (3) doesn't list it as the first choice for the spring, and (4) whines about other "less needful" students taking the course? |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 5:22 PM Author: Black underhanded plaza More proof that CLS is a TTT in decline. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7376459) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 5:25 PM Author: ocher yarmulke The accepted wisdom is that you don't take it as a 2L because it's a GPA killer and you only need to have done it by the time you start your clerkship. You don't need to have it done when you apply.
My guess is a bunch of 3Ls saved it for the spring because Dorf is a much better professor than Monaghan, and the other choice was taking it as a year long course, with two credits each semester.
Still, you're right, these idiots should have ranked it #1 for the spring. |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 5:39 PM Author: apoplectic mind-boggling stag film EDIT: Defintely not in it. I won't be taking any classes with Michael Dorf. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7376587) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 5:53 PM Author: apoplectic mind-boggling stag film All of them should definitely drop out, and the course should be reserved for 3Ls. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7376677) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 5:56 PM Author: Vivacious Dull Kitchen Ty. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7376703) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 5:56 PM Author: federal market Spoke to a 2L today who has no interest in clerking but will be taking the class because she finds it interesting and wants to litigate. She won't be dropping. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7376698) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 5:56 PM Author: apoplectic mind-boggling stag film It realy annoys me how much of a douchebag some people at school are. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7376705) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 5:57 PM Author: federal market How is that douchebag behavior? She saw a class she was interested in, ranked it #1, got it, loves Dorf and looks forward to enjoying it. She's not obligated to help dumb 3Ls who rank FedCourts 4 and get waitlistpwn3d. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7376711) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 5:59 PM Author: apoplectic mind-boggling stag film She's a douchebag if she knows she will be screwing over other people, which it is clear she does. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7376717) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 9:22 AM Author: light church building hairy legs How is she "screwing people over"? Are people going to lose clerkships because they didn't take it? Or are you suggesting that not taking it will somehow harm someone's chance to get a SCOTUS clerkship or something?
Also, if someone does ask, how are you going to explain why you didn't take it? "Uh, some 2L bitch wouldn't drop it so I could get in"?
If you weren't so TTT you would have taken it 2L year, pwned it, and had it on your transcript when you interviewed for clerkships. |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 6:01 PM Author: orange garrison twinkling uncleanness No, she's not obligated, but since it doesn't cost her to drop (since she'll have a guaranteed spot next year), it's just spiteful. Also, Dorf has clearly expressed that 2Ls ought to have a damn good reason for being there -- she does not. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7376731) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 6:02 PM Author: apoplectic mind-boggling stag film TITCR (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7376736) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 12:45 AM Author: Grizzly temple chad The trolljunkie makes an excellent point. Seriously, unless you're a hot female 2L, you shouldn't be in the course. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7379929) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 12:47 AM Author: orange garrison twinkling uncleanness dood, I so need to buy you a blowup doll for belated xmas. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7379940) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 12:48 AM Author: Grizzly temple chad Will you really? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7379955) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 12:50 AM Author: orange garrison twinkling uncleanness your excited anticipation is disturbing. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7379975) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 12:59 AM Author: Grizzly temple chad I'll definitely disturb that doll if you buy it. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7380039) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 9:28 PM Author: Cheese-eating citrine nursing home This is incorrect: "it doesn't cost her to drop"
The class currently fits her schedule. If she drops it may end up at an inconvenient time slot for her. She should do what's right for her.
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Date: January 8th, 2007 6:02 PM Author: Black underhanded plaza Totally douchebag because she is GUARANTEED to be able to take it next year if she drops. 3Ls don't have a next year (except Overdrive, hahaha). (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7376734) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 7:51 PM Author: Vivacious Dull Kitchen Date: January 8th, 2007 6:02 PM Author: PAAAACE
Totally douchebag because she is GUARANTEED to be able to take it next year if she drops. 3Ls don't have a next year (except Overdrive, hahaha).
(http://www.xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=#)
Are you trying to imply that I'm going to fail my last semester of law school? Ok... |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 7:54 PM Author: Black underhanded plaza It was a joke, douche. Because of how much youve been whining like a bitch lately. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7377452) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 7:57 PM Author: Vivacious Dull Kitchen It's not a very good joke. If I'm a gunner douche who's whining about my clerkship chances being harmed by 2Ls taking up spots in Fed Courts, it's not likely that I'd fail.
Better just to point out that I'm a douche, or make a joke about that, rather than toss out non-sequiters. |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 6:01 PM Author: ocher yarmulke Since it's clear that most of the people who want to take this class, 2Ls and 3Ls alike, are douchebags, CLS should reassign the course to HATBURGER. That'll learn 'em. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7376728) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 6:15 PM Author: Thriller crimson halford Are they douchebags? How does one know? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7376795) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 8:07 PM Author: Carnelian Giraffe Meetinghouse Generally, if it's not obvious to you, it's because you're one of them. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7377530) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 12:15 AM Author: Thriller crimson halford I was making fun of Hamburger, jackass. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7379618) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 3:34 PM Author: insecure bawdyhouse Fed Courts with THE HATBURGER. That would be very much worth every dollar. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7383151) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 7:53 PM Author: Dashing Mentally Impaired Parlor Rigor what kind of gunner actually complains about not being able to take this course (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7377441) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 8:09 PM Author: Galvanic Aggressive Electric Furnace Someone who wants to clerk or is going to clerk after graduation. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7377543) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 10:36 PM Author: Dashing Mentally Impaired Parlor Rigor precisely. Huge gunners. Hope they all get screwed to hell. If I were at CLS, I'd sign up for the class just to screw them over (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7378663) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 10:39 PM Author: Galvanic Aggressive Electric Furnace Screwing them over screws the school over too. No one benefits from 3Ls losing clerkships or getting shittier clerkships than they would have gotten otherwise (well, except NYU, Penn, Michigan, etc.). (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7378694) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 10:41 PM Author: Dashing Mentally Impaired Parlor Rigor who gives a shit if it hurts the school at the margins? I couldnt give a shit if my school is #4 or # 6 next year. In fact I dont give a fucking shit if it goes to 14 3 years after im out. I wont give the bastards a goddamn dime either (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7378718) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 10:56 PM Author: Fluffy Heaven charming. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7378841) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 12:47 AM Author: Grizzly temple chad Given your moniker, the ancients must have been tards. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7379944) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 10:50 PM Author: wine bearded knife Do you really thing CLS is going to have a lower overall number of clerkships because a few retarded 3Ls didn't get to take federal courts? Seems pretty implausible to me. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7378790) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 12:10 AM Author: Arousing main people brunch the (% clerking * average clerkship prestige) column in USNWR is very heavily weighted (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7379564) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 12:57 AM Author: wine bearded knife Better start buying up some new li-bary volumes, CLS! (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7380024) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 9:29 PM Author: Cheese-eating citrine nursing home "3Ls losing clerkships"
3Ls are not losing clerkships because of missing a class. |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 10:42 PM Author: orange garrison twinkling uncleanness there are a ton of people clerking or planning to clerk - not all of them are 'gunners.' (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7378722) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 10:45 PM Author: Dashing Mentally Impaired Parlor Rigor everyone who wants to work for the government for a paltry salary and "prestige" is practically the definition of 'gunner' (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7378745) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 8:05 PM Author: Carnelian Giraffe Meetinghouse You have to admire the shrewdness of the 3Ls on the waitlist. They never had to use their top choice on fed courts, but now they get to bitch and whine their way into it. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7377519) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 8:08 PM Author: Charcoal Aphrodisiac Kitty Cat Ape Exactly. I'm tempted to email Dorf and let him know that the 3L's who claim to have put this class as #1 and yet still were waitlisted are boldface liars. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7377536) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 8:19 PM Author: Vivacious Dull Kitchen Except that gives them no advantage over any 2L that takes Dorf up on his offer - they would effectively get 2 first choices next fall. So 3Ls aren't getting any unfair advantage. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7377595) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 8:21 PM Author: Charcoal Aphrodisiac Kitty Cat Ape Yes, those 2L's have the advantage of picking through all of the wonderful courses that no one else wanted. Plus it doesn't disadvantage the other 2L's to have 20 slots in Fed Courts next fall already promised to people that drop it this semester.
Just admit it, it is no one's fault but your own that you are in this situation. Hope for the best, but quit bitching at people who signed up for a class that they wanted, and now don't want to drop it. |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 12:53 AM Author: Grizzly temple chad Damn 2L's aren't even human yet. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7379996) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 8:22 PM Author: Carnelian Giraffe Meetinghouse It obviously gives them an advantage over the 3Ls who had to use their top choice to get in. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7377621) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 8:39 PM Author: Vivacious Dull Kitchen True, but none of them are bitching about it - which they'd have every right to do. All the ones that I've talked to want the 2Ls to drop. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7377718) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 10:41 PM Author: orange garrison twinkling uncleanness I haven't talked to any 3Ls who are in the class who would resent this "advantage" given to 3Ls on the waitlist. I'm in the class, and I certainly wouldn't.
I personally think that the 2Ls run the risk of seriously annoying Dorf by staying in (unless they're doing study abroad next year or something). |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 10:48 PM Author: Carnelian Giraffe Meetinghouse Even if they're not doing study abroad, which I don't think anybody does, they could still end up with the fall term fed courts conflicting with something they'd rather take. So they might get a free number one pick next semester, but that doesn't mean so much if what they'd pick conflicts with fed courts. This is in addition to having to scramble to find something now. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7378773) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 8:10 PM Author: onyx idea he suggested is there a reason that CLS doesn't offer another section? or restrict it to 3Ls? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7377550) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 8:22 PM Author: Galvanic Aggressive Electric Furnace I'm surprised they didn't anticipate this kind of demand for the class. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7377618) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 8:34 PM Author: Carnelian Giraffe Meetinghouse Well, if the 3Ls who claim to have listed it as their first choice actually had, I think they could all have gotten in. But it still doesn't make any sense to put the class in one of the smaller lecture halls. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7377698) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 9:26 AM Author: light church building hairy legs That's the stupid part of the whole thing. If fed courts is an absolute necessity for 3Ls and its unavailability to 3Ls is going to have an actual impact on clerkship numbers (which, I have to say, I doubt) why don't they just open another section? Or if Dorf is willing to shit all over 2Ls who are serious enough to take it 2L year, why isn't he willing to teach two sections? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7381237) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 8:38 PM Author: Razzle-dazzle cocky factory reset button They offered 3 sections this year. Three. People were poor planners and now feel entitled. Current 3Ls had 5 opportunities to take this class, and apparently this is the only time in those 5 that the class has been oversubscribed. |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 8:47 PM Author: Bright principal's office place of business "What's strange about the whole thing is that this is probably the first time that CLS has had three Fed Cts sections in one year, yet due to rooms they were put in, the structure of the classes, and the professors teaching, the school hasn't significantly increased the number of students who are able to take it. Monaghan's was in 105 (65 cap), Dorf in 105 (65) cap, and Stone was JG107 (which is about the same size as 105). Assuming 107 is a 65 cap, vs. the one Fed Cts section last year (I think Lee was the only class) and it was in 104 (160-170 cap), there's only a 25-35 person increase in the number of people who can take Fed Cts, and that assumes that 65 people are actually expected to take Monaghan and that 65 people are actually expected to take a year long Fed Courts class where stuff you learned in the fall is tested at the end of the Spring."
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=558315&forum_id=2#7362222)
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Date: January 8th, 2007 8:48 PM Author: Chocolate Sandwich What's obvious here is that alot of people who were interested in taking fed courts this year saw that Dorf (a very popular professor, for those who don't know) would be teaching it in the spring, and aimed to get into that section. That's why the other two sections offered went under-subscribed. That strategy then blew up in the face of some 3Ls who were not careful enough.
If it had been made clear beforehand that Dorf was going to be teaching fed courts again this coming fall, I think alot of 2Ls would not have signed up for this spring's offering in the first place. Certainly that is true for me. |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 8:52 PM Author: Lascivious Clear House yeah, but it didn't really "blow up in their face" -- they just decided that it wasn't quite important enough to them to rank it first. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7377799) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 8:50 PM Author: Lascivious Clear House titcr; furthermore, this semester they could have guaranteed themselves a seat, but chose not to. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7377779) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 8:49 PM Author: Embarrassed to the bone beady-eyed associate senate Congrats, this is the most toolish thread in the history of the board. You sound like a really fun guy. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7377769) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 8:54 PM Author: Vivacious Dull Kitchen I hope this is addressed at me and not the OP. I'm clearly a bigger douche. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7377809) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 8:55 PM Author: Embarrassed to the bone beady-eyed associate senate No reason to argue- you can both be douches. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7377816) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 8:56 PM Author: Vivacious Dull Kitchen ty (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7377820) |
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Date: January 10th, 2007 2:33 PM Author: Erotic saffron stock car RETORT (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7389824) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 8:51 PM Author: Vivacious Dull Kitchen ... (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7377792) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 9:15 PM Author: lake racy friendly grandma den Hey 3L's: fuck you.
I'm not in the class, but for 2L's it doesn't follow that being guaranteed a spot next year is EXACTLY equivalent to having a spot right now. For one thing, 2L's might want to have fed courts already on their transcript while applying for clerkships, not just an empty promise to take fed courts. Having already taken fed courts automatically demonstrates an interest/commitment to the subject, plus if you can manage to get a good grade it's even better.
The 3L's who are complaining brought this on themselves. Their asking 2L's to give up something that is their right, to "waste" their #1 choice this semester. Maybe Dorf some 2L's favorite professor. Maybe a 2L deliberately didn't take the two other Fed Courts sections just because they were planning on taking it in spring.
Stop saying that the only reason a 2L would stay in the class is out of spite or douchebaggery. |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 9:19 PM Author: Galvanic Aggressive Electric Furnace "For one thing, 2L's might want to have fed courts already on their transcript while applying for clerkships, not just an empty promise to take fed courts. Having already taken fed courts automatically demonstrates an interest/commitment to the subject, plus if you can manage to get a good grade it's even better."
It's more likely than not that taking fed courts now would do more harm than good for their clerkship chances, what with the forced curve and all.
"Maybe Dorf some 2L's favorite professor. Maybe a 2L deliberately didn't take the two other Fed Courts sections just because they were planning on taking it in spring with Dorf."
So why can't they take him in the Fall instead? |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 9:22 PM Author: Lascivious Clear House they shouldn't have to take him in hte fall because they expended their valuable #1 slot on the class now. if they had known that they'd be forced out so that 3Ls who ranked the class second could squirm in, then they would have used that #1 slot on the most hard-to-get seminars, for example.
Edit: though, i suppose the guaranteed seat in the fall gives them a "bonus" #1 slot to use then. |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 9:24 PM Author: Galvanic Aggressive Electric Furnace But next term they have the equivalent of two #1 picks (their actual #1 pick and the guaranteed Dorf Fed Courts) so it balances out. Doesn't sound like anyone's getting hurt here. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7378031) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 9:29 PM Author: lake racy friendly grandma den My main point is it's perfectly rational and reasonable for 2L's to want to have fed courts on their transcript THIS YEAR before applying to clerkships. That makes Dorf's offer not completely equivalent and justifies 2L's staying in the class for substantive reasons, not just douchebaggery. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7378072) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 9:32 PM Author: Galvanic Aggressive Electric Furnace I'm not sure it's that rational given how huge a risk it is -- I mean, does anyone really think a B in fed courts is going to look better than no fed courts on a 3L clerkship app? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7378102) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 9:37 PM Author: lake racy friendly grandma den Well it's clear that there are plusses and minuses on both sides (i.e. the sure bet of demonstrating interest versus the possibility or likelihood of getting a lower grade). I don't understand why you think that the minuses clearly outweigh the pluses for all people and all circumstances so that it's flat-out irrational for a 2L to want to take it. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7378149) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 9:43 PM Author: Galvanic Aggressive Electric Furnace It's not just the minuses to the individual, it's the minuses to the group. No 2L benefits from a bunch of 3Ls losing their clerkships (or not being able to apply for clerkships after graduation) because they got closed out of fed courts. In fact, something like that is to the detriment of the 2Ls and the entire school. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7378198) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 11:18 PM Author: lake racy friendly grandma den This response is completely confused. What the fuck is pluses and minuses to the group? I thought this entire thread we're talking about the self-interest of 2L's and now your shifting arguments. And by the way, I highly doubt 3L's not being able to take the class will create any sort of significant detriment to them or any group or the school. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7379056) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 12:58 AM Author: Grizzly temple chad You're a tard. The self interest of 2L's is better served by having more 3L's go take clerkship positions so they can then "evaluate" other a/k/a YOUR clerkship application. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7380033) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 9:30 AM Author: light church building hairy legs This is actually probably the second best scenario (the best being an A in Fed Courts 2L year). You still get to take it with the teacher you like, you still get your first choice pick, and you can submit your current schedule with your transcript when you apply to clerk. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7381245) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 2:55 PM Author: Galvanic Aggressive Electric Furnace Yeah, I'm not sure why people are complaining about this deal Dorf offered. It seems pretty damn good.
Then again each of those 2Ls probably thinks he's soooo brilliant that of *course* he'll be one of the guys who gets an A... |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 9:29 PM Author: Lascivious Clear House what about other 2Ls who want in to Dorf in the fall, people whose #1 picks, if used on Dorf, will be worth less than they would be otherwise? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7378078) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 9:33 PM Author: Galvanic Aggressive Electric Furnace They got their #1 pick this term so it balances out. And presumably the registrar will learn from this and let more people in the class (that's what Penn did after last year's corporations debacle). (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7378108) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 9:37 PM Author: Lascivious Clear House that doesn't balance anything out. they deserve to use #1 picks of "full force" every term. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7378146) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 9:40 PM Author: Galvanic Aggressive Electric Furnace I don't go to CLS so maybe I'm missing something here, but I'm not sure why having one #1 pick for four terms is substantively different from having one #1 pick for two terms, no #1 pick for one term, and two #1 picks for one term. In both cases you get four "top choices" that you're pretty much guaranteed to get into, it's just a question of when you get them. Unless you're in the extremely unique position of visiting another school or doing a study abroad during your fall 3L year you don't seem to lose anything by taking Dorf's deal.
Hell, given how schools tend to have shitty course offerings during the spring it seems that having the equivalent of two #1 picks during a fall semester would be significantly better than having one #1 pick every term. |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 9:48 PM Author: Lascivious Clear House oh -- the confusion is that i'm talking about the "plight" of *other* 2Ls, 2Ls who aren't involved in the current Dorf class in any way. These 2Ls, who may have no idea about the current scandal, may use their #1 slot on Dorf in the fall. But, because of the lingering guarantees to 2Ls who dropped Spring Dorf, the #1 slot of these *other* 2Ls has less "class-getting power" in the fall than it would otherwise.
it's marginal, but i was trying to identify a party getting hurt.
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Date: January 8th, 2007 9:51 PM Author: Galvanic Aggressive Electric Furnace Unless a lot of those 2Ls are unable to get into Dorf's class even if they rank it #1 (which probably won't happen since the registrar will likely put it in a bigger room with a higher enrollment cap), it doesn't seem like the uninvolved 2Ls suffer much. Remember, they got to keep their #1 pick this term, while the 2Ls taking Dorf's deal are in effect forfeiting it in exchange for guaranteed placement next term, so it ends up being a wash. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7378278) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 10:22 PM Author: Razzle-dazzle cocky factory reset button What if they plan on externing or doing a clinic or something that makes them not want to take it next semester? That should be their prerogative. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7378530) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 9:25 PM Author: lake racy friendly grandma den Fine, but my second point is that what if a 2L PLANNED on taking fed courts THIS YEAR. So they deliberately opted out in the fall to be able to take in the spring, whether it was Dorf or not.
There's no doubt that having fed courts on your transcript is a boost during the clerkship hunt. The Professor at CLS who is the clerkship director even told me this (for example, can you name a single non-mandatory class that is more relevant to a clerkship?). All you guys are talking about is the fear of getting a bad grade. Maybe 2L's are marginal clerkship candidates and want to roll the dice. |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 9:37 PM Author: Galvanic Aggressive Electric Furnace "Fine, but my second point is that what if a 2L PLANNED on taking fed courts THIS YEAR. So they deliberately opted out in the fall to be able to take in the spring, whether it was Dorf or not."
If it's about taking fed courts as a 2L and not necessarily about taking fed courts with Dorf, why not take fed courts in the fall or take the yearlong section? It sounds like Dorf was a big motivator for the 2Ls here too.
As for the boost, you have to keep in mind that for 3Ls it's not a matter of having a "boost" or not but actually being able to apply for competitive clerkships. It's their absolute last chance to take it at all, so why not accomodate them? |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 9:46 PM Author: lake racy friendly grandma den I'm who (1) intended to take fed courts at some point in 2L year, and (2) deliberately avoided it in fall (both the Monoghan and the year long) to be able to take it in spring. If this was someone's plan all along, you're throwing a wrench into their plans by asking them to accommoddate 3L's who were dumb enough to not put it #1. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7378229) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 9:54 PM Author: Galvanic Aggressive Electric Furnace If it's true that the registrar placed a lower cap on course enrollment and put the course in a smaller room than in the past you can't really blame the 3Ls for not being smart enough to put it #1, since it sounds like they almost certainly would have gotten the course as a #2 pick if the registrar didn't tinker with the room and enrollment cap. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7378303) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 10:10 PM Author: Carnelian Giraffe Meetinghouse Everyone knew the enrollment cap before pre-registration. It might be kind of a disappointment if you'd thought you'd easily get it and then saw that the cap was 65, meaning you'd need to use your first choice, but it's not like the cap was a secret. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7378438) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 10:11 PM Author: Galvanic Aggressive Electric Furnace Ah, that changes things a bit. We don't get that info at Penn unless you dig deep for it. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7378441) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 10:45 PM Author: orange garrison twinkling uncleanness Where was this info during preregistration? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7378742) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 10:47 PM Author: Motley Maniacal Blood Rage Dog Poop I sure as fuck did not see it. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7378760) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 2:47 AM Author: Confused Frum Depressive The Registrar's e-mail on 11/9/06 with the Excel spreadsheet of all Spring 2007 courses listed Fed. Courts in GRHL 105. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7380571) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 9:30 PM Author: lake racy friendly grandma den Mr. Dizzle, are you clerking or planning to clerk in the future? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7378083) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 9:40 PM Author: snowy excitant school cafeteria what do you think? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7378177) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 9:42 PM Author: Bright principal's office place of business I'm not on the waitlist and I never was. I don't see how this question is important, besides showing that you're jumping to the conclusion that I'm on the waitlist and that's why I'm annoyed by the situation. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7378191) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 9:46 PM Author: swashbuckling seedy boltzmann pistol If you're weren't clerking, shouldn't you drop the class too? Granted, you'd think the 2Ls should drop before you do, but still. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7378227) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 9:47 PM Author: Bright principal's office place of business I don't see any reason why I'd (or anyone would) be taking the class unless I either am clerking next year or plan on clerking in the future. Fed Courts is not a class I would be taking just for fun, especially in the last semester of law school. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7378240) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 9:47 PM Author: Concupiscible Pea-brained Ladyboy Public Bath I'm glad I screwed over a 3L last year by taking Fed Courts as a 2L, so I don't have to deal with being screwed over by a 2L this year. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7378242) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 10:30 PM Author: stubborn exciting faggotry sanctuary Is the class being taught next year taught by the same professor? Is it guaranteed to be in a tolerable timeslot that won't conflict with a ton of other desirable courses? Are there still lots of good classes open to 2Ls who drop FedCourts?
I don't really know the inside story here, but I can see some of these things motivating the 2Ls. The 3Ls who delayed FedCourts until their last semester were presumably worried about things like schedules and professors and other classes too, since they seem to have passed up several opportunities to take the class in the past. I'm not sure if it's entirely fair to expect 2Ls to brush all those concerns aside. |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 10:33 PM Author: Motley Maniacal Blood Rage Dog Poop The professor will teach the same class next year and guaranteed the 2Ls who dropped this year admission into that class.
CLS offered 2 sections of Fed Cts in the Fall of 2006. One of them is with a notoriously difficult prof (Monaghan) and the other was a weird 2 semester deal with very few takers.
Someone ran the numbers and figured that even though there were 3 sections offered in fall 06 and spring 07 there were not any more seats offered than other years where only 1 section was offered per year. |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 10:37 PM Author: stubborn exciting faggotry sanctuary That at least clears up the professor issue. Still, it makes it kind of hard on 2Ls who have specific classes they'd like to take as 3Ls or who want to do clinics - if they have conflicts, they're going to be out of luck.
Sounds like the school is primarily at fault (it's too bad they can't find a way to put the class in a larger room so it could have more seats). After that I'd say the 3Ls are at fault, though. They put it off and put it off, and then apparently didn't rank it first when the one semester they were willing to take it came around. It would be nice of the 2Ls to give up their spots, but I can see how they might not be willing to trade a decent schedule for a potentially fucked up one next year or how they might be wary about spending this semester in whatever random class happens to be open. |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 10:40 PM Author: Motley Maniacal Blood Rage Dog Poop I think one of the problems is that they didn't really advertise the fact that the section offered this semester would be 1/2 the size of traditional fed courts classes. Someone says this info was made available, but I (and at least 3-4 other 3Ls) did not see it. Most of us used a #1 slot for a competitive seminar and #2 for fed courts, thinking that based on past experience and class size this would not be a problem. Should I have been more careful? Probably. But then again, if I were a 2L in the class I would drop it no question. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7378703) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 10:51 PM Author: transparent odious base marketing idea This thread gives me so much ammo for my Chicago trolling.
Seriously though, CLS 2Ls in this class: You sound like you're being real douchebags. Nobody has articulated anything even close to a real reason for not dropping. Sure, the 3Ls should have ranked it #1. But you shouldn't be dicks. |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 11:20 PM Author: lake racy friendly grandma den I've articulated reasons for not dropping, HTH.
The Professor at CLS who was the clerkship chair last year specifically told me that it's good (not necessary or great, but good) to have fed courts on your transcript before applying to clerkships. Obviously anyone can see that HAVING ALREADY TAKEN THE CLASS is a better indication of taking fed courts than promising to take the class. And if you do well, it would be an even bigger boon. |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 11:27 PM Author: Fluffy Heaven except that many of the people who did best in the clerkship department haven't taken it yet. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7379126) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 11:30 PM Author: transparent odious base marketing idea Yes, I would be skeptical about this claim. My guess is "good for a clerkship" is the same way that a really good LSAT addendum is "good for a law school application." I.e., the value is so marginal as to be nearly useless. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7379160) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 11:40 PM Author: lake racy friendly grandma den So the best strategy for applying to clerkships is to put forward a sub-optimal application? Is that what you recommend? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7379258) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 11:44 PM Author: orange garrison twinkling uncleanness Having no fed cts after 2L is better than having a B in fed cts. So taking it as a 2L in NO WAY guarantees a better app, and in fact makes it more likely that you'll have a worse app. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7379302) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 11:47 PM Author: Galvanic Aggressive Electric Furnace The class is curved, right? Therefore it's pretty much a given that at least half the 2Ls in the class will end up having their clerkship chances fucked by taking the class. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7379341) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 11:58 PM Author: lake racy friendly grandma den Look, I'll just respond to both of you. Since fed courts is a difficult class, the intrinsic value of having it on your resume can be (obviously) outweighed by the negative value of getting a bad grade.
But getting a bad grade is an independent negative consideration that is to be weighed against the positive consideration of having it on your resume. All 2L's considering taking the class should keep this in mind and come to a serious decision. BUT for certain 2L's who give it a lot of thought and have serious reasons to think they can do well (i.e. A's in Civ Pro and Con Law, a williness to put in a tremendous amount of work), I don't see how it's irrational.
GTO's argument is something like: since at least half the 2L's will do worse, it follows that it is completely irrational for any 2L to want to take the class as a boost. |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 12:15 AM Author: Galvanic Aggressive Electric Furnace It is irrational when the "boost" is pretty minimal. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7379628) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 12:19 AM Author: Charismatic karate double fault So people at CLS with A's in civ pro and conlaw are desperate for a "boost" in order to get clerkships? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7379683) |
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Date: January 10th, 2007 9:42 AM Author: light church building hairy legs And, also, have a better shot at getting a good grade in Fed Courts? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7388588) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 11:49 PM Author: transparent odious base marketing idea Your clerkship application is going to be dominated by so many other factors that the lack of FedJur could only be considered sub-optimal in a metaphysical sense.
On the other hand, having 3L friends doing a clerkship that are willing to put in a good word for you is far more important. Pissing off potential 3L friends by knowingly taking a spot in a class they need is a much more direct route to a sub-optimal application.
And that's the last I'll say on this given that it's not my school, so I don't really need to butt in. |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 1:01 AM Author: Grizzly temple chad I think you're in the class. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7380050) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 11:30 PM Author: lake racy friendly grandma den That doesn't disprove what Witt told me. HTH.
Look, I'm not even one of the 2L's in the class. I just think that it's completely outrageous and unfair for everyone to say that these 2L's HAVE NO REASON WHATSOEVER to remain in the class. If they really didn't have any reasons, these 2L's wouldn't be in the class in the first place (bid it #1 etc). Everyone is trying to scare 2L's by saying it's completely irrational to stay in the class ("OOOOGA BOOOGA YOU'RE GOING TO GET A B-!!!!"). I think that's silly. |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 11:32 PM Author: transparent odious base marketing idea 2Ls signed up for the class BEFORE people knew about the situation. 2Ls definitely have a reason to take the class, but given a) the problem with the 3Ls and b) the deal made by the prof, I don't think they have any good reason to not drop now. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7379185) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 11:36 PM Author: lake racy friendly grandma den (1) The problem with the 3L's doesn't count on the point of whether the 2L's have an affirmative reason to take the class. It might weigh against the reason, but it doesn't make the affirmative reason disappear.
(2) Like I keep saying, a significant affirmative reason, at least for some 2L's, is to have fed courts on their transcipts before applying to clerkships. This affirmative reason would be compromised, since the offer only guarantees that (a) they'll be able to fed courts 3L year, and (b) they'll be able to take it with Dorf. |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 11:41 PM Author: Galvanic Aggressive Electric Furnace Affirmative reason =/= significant affirmative reason (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7379269) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 11:49 PM Author: Vivacious Dull Kitchen Don't classes that you're currently registered for appear on your transcript? They definitely appear on your unofficial one (Lawnet, see grades, all) but EIP was long enough ago for me to forget what the official ones look like. Thus, won't all 2Ls who take Dorf's offer have Fed Courts on their transcript, and have the benefit of not yet having a grade in it? Isn't that ideal?
Fed Courts is an important class to clerking, but having a good grade in it does not mean you're a lock for a clerkship. But getting an average/bad grade in it will hurt. I don't understand the risk that 2Ls are taking.
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Date: January 9th, 2007 12:25 AM Author: Thriller crimson halford "But getting an average/bad grade in it will hurt. I don't understand the risk that 2Ls are taking."
It could be that the 2L's have average/bad grades and figure that their only shot at a good clerkship is to get an A in fed courts. I think this is a legitimate strategy. I took the safer route (postponing fed courts until next year) but if I had average grades I might have tried the risk-it-all-on-fed-courts strategy. Hell, it's kind of like doubling down, except in a very, very nerdy way. |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 2:53 AM Author: Charismatic karate double fault Thanks for reminding us that you're not one of those poor slobs with average grades.
And it's a ridiculous strategy. The odds that you're suddenly going to beat out a bunch of people with better grades are pretty slim. You may as well drop the class and spend the time in Atlantic City, since if you hit the jackpot, you won't need a clerkship or job at all. |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 11:35 PM Author: Burgundy low-t fortuitous meteor potus As another notorious Chicago troll, I just want to agree with MTG here. The failure to secure a larger room for FedJur reflects badly upon the CLS administration. And the failure of the 2Ls to drop the course reflects terribly upon the student body.
I'm not just trying to taunt here - I'm genuinely surprised that the CLS Class of '08 is so chock full o'douchebags. I mean, don't get me wrong: I'm an immense douchebag myself. But it's funny to realize that, had I attended CLS, I would have been far behind many of my colleagues in this department.
Thus ends my dumping on an otherwise superb peer school. |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 11:37 PM Author: lake racy friendly grandma den I find it hilarious that a douchebag like you is trying to take the high ground on something you haven't done but claim that you would do. Fuck off. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7379230) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 11:39 PM Author: Burgundy low-t fortuitous meteor potus Look, I'm probably being overly harsh...but as MTG and others have pointed out, there is no serious articulable reason for 2Ls who have been offered a guaranteed spot next year w/this professor not to drop now. The rationale of "I want this on my transcript for clerkship apps" is, as explained above, a very slim reed to hang justification on. If you want to get a clerkship, here's a better suggestion: get really good grades. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7379251) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 11:43 PM Author: lake racy friendly grandma den "no serious articulable reason"
I don't give a fuck what you think, but wanting fed courts on your transcript for clerkships is a serious, reasonable, and rational desire or preference for a significant number of law students. Stop demeaning their preferences by calling it "no serious articulable reason." At the very least, the fact that the clerkship director has said that having fed courts is "good" makes it reasonable preference. |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 11:45 PM Author: greedy hairraiser international law enforcement agency Witt was really the clerkship chair? Are you sure? I don't remember him giving the talk to the law review staffers. I thought it was Dubler and some other lady. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7379311) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 11:50 PM Author: Vivacious Dull Kitchen (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7379368) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 11:45 PM Author: Burgundy low-t fortuitous meteor potus No, it doesn't. Really, it doesn't. It's a justification that may superficially appear reasonable, but is quite flimsy once analyzed and (especially) matched up against the experience of successful clerkship applicants.
Either way, agree or disagree, you should stop cursing at me. It's beneath you. If, as you say, you don't really have a dog in this hunt, there's certainly no reason for you to get so worked up. |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 11:51 PM Author: lake racy friendly grandma den Now you have empirical data for successful clerkship applicants? Can you please provide this deep "analysis" you're alluding to?
I have never ever said that wanting fed courts on your transcript is overriding reason or hugely signiciant or important. It's just reasonable and rational. I find it demeaning everyone who wants to claim that there is no reason whatsoever for these 2L's to want this. That's just false. |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 11:54 PM Author: Galvanic Aggressive Electric Furnace How is it rational to take a class where the *most likely outcome* is that you'll end up with an average or bad grade that'll end up fucking you over in the clerkship process? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7379409) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 11:54 PM Author: Burgundy low-t fortuitous meteor potus I never claimed there was "no reason whatsoever" for 2Ls to want to take the course now, and to fail to drop once they realize that 3Ls need it desperately.
I claimed, rather, that there was no GOOD reason whatsoever. Significant distinction. I believe the wording I used was "no serious articulable reason." |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 11:48 PM Author: Galvanic Aggressive Electric Furnace It seems pretty irrational given that at least half (and likely more) of the 2Ls taking fed courts will have their clerkship chances significantly diminished due to getting a subpar grade in the course. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7379354) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 11:40 PM Author: orange garrison twinkling uncleanness where did he claim he WOULD do it? he just said he was a douchebag. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7379260) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 11:44 PM Author: lake racy friendly grandma den "But it's funny to realize that, had I attended CLS, I would have been far behind many of my colleagues in this department."
He's implicitly claiming he would take the high ground of dropping the class if he were in their situation. |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 11:50 PM Author: Galvanic Aggressive Electric Furnace I don't see why he wouldn't. I would. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7379374) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 11:53 PM Author: lake racy friendly grandma den I believe you. I just find it disgusting that someone would try to take the moral high ground (and try to receive credit for it while demeaning others) on the basis of something he hasn't done and claims that he would do. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7379404) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 9:35 AM Author: light church building hairy legs In fairness, the only substantive incentive to a 2L to drop (and, I'm sorry -- I don't buy this "3Ls can't get clerkships without it" argument) is the mandatory curve and the possibility of having a B (or lower) in the class on your transcript. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7381254) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 9:33 PM Author: Cheese-eating citrine nursing home The 2Ls blew their top pick. They are not guaranteed their 2nd favorite pick this semester. Next year this class might be at the same time as something they are very interested in (and this year there might be no conflict). For this reason, I wouldn't give up a good schedule for the uncertainty of a unset schedule. What gain is there? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7385695) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 11:45 PM Author: Concupiscible Pea-brained Ladyboy Public Bath 2Ls: DO NOT DROP. THE SAME THING HAPPENED LAST YEAR, AND IT WILL HAPPEN NEXT YEAR TOO. YOU DO NOT WANT TO BE IN THE POSITION OF ONE OF THESE 3LS BEGGING TO TAKE THE CLASS NEXT YEAR BECAUSE 'IT IS YOUR LAST SEMESTER' (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7379312) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 11:46 PM Author: orange garrison twinkling uncleanness F- on reading comprehension. 2Ls who drop are guaranteed a spot next year. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7379333) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 11:49 PM Author: Concupiscible Pea-brained Ladyboy Public Bath Yeah, it's true I didn't read this thread. Is it a guaranteed spot in a Dorf Fed Courts class? Who wants a guaranteed spot in a Fed Courts class that may be taught by Monaghan (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7379362) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 11:50 PM Author: Burgundy low-t fortuitous meteor potus It is a guaranteed spot in Dorf's Fed Courts, apparently. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7379370) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 11:50 PM Author: Vivacious Dull Kitchen Guaranteed for Dorf. Isn't Monahan retiring? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7379378) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 11:47 PM Author: sticky wild laser beams Dear 3L asshats: congrats at listing FedCourts #4 and lying to Dorf that you listed it #1!
Dear 2Ls: Congrats, now you will have a better chance at landing your dream clerkship with an 'A' in Fed Courts already on your resume (shouldn't be too hard to beat a bunch of last semester slacker 3Ls on a curve). |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 11:49 PM Author: Galvanic Aggressive Electric Furnace I imagine the bulk of the 3Ls in that class are not going to be slacking though. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7379364) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 11:54 PM Author: sticky wild laser beams the 3Ls are telling themselves right now that they will pay attention, but they will very quickly succumb to senioritis and only cram from a Senate outline at the last minute. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7379413) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 11:50 PM Author: greedy hairraiser international law enforcement agency 3L exams are graded separately I'm pretty sure. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7379377) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 11:53 PM Author: sticky wild laser beams im pretty sure you're wrong (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7379403) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 11:54 PM Author: greedy hairraiser international law enforcement agency what makes you think that? doesn't it strike you as odd that all the grades are in for 3Ls before they're in for 2Ls in the spring? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7379418) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 11:58 PM Author: orange garrison twinkling uncleanness They are most assuredly graded separately. Hence the "please mark on the front of your exam packet if you are a candidate for graduation this semester" and the fact that 3L grades are in before graduation, while 2Ls wait another handful of weeks in the same classes. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7379451) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 12:01 AM Author: sticky wild laser beams Are they on seperate curves also? I never knew this. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7379474) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 12:04 AM Author: orange garrison twinkling uncleanness Not sure - but I can't see how they could not be given the timing. But perhaps profs have a general sense of the range of responses, and try to predict about how the whole group will come out while grading the 3Ls. No idea. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7379507) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 11:52 PM Author: Concupiscible Pea-brained Ladyboy Public Bath Fed Cts is not as hard or as time consuming as everyone makes it out to be. I barely went to class or studied, didn't even bother to study section 1983 or AEDPA and did well. It just seems hard because there are so many douchebags making comments all class long to sound intelligent. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7379393) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 12:02 AM Author: lake racy friendly grandma den I'M LEAVING THIS THREAD. THIS IS WHY I SIGNED UP FOR THE YEAR LONG FED COURTS!!! (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7379485) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 12:05 AM Author: orange garrison twinkling uncleanness THANKS FOR LETTING US KNOW YOU'RE LEAVING. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7379516) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 1:04 AM Author: Grizzly temple chad Good riddance. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7380072) |
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Date: January 10th, 2007 12:45 PM Author: Grizzly temple chad For someone who left this thread, you make a lot of posts. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7389284) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 12:24 AM Author: Razzle Locale Clown If you want to clerk, lack of fed courts on your transcript is not going to be the dealbreaker. I applied widely for COA clerkships and recalled only one judge who mentioned as a "nice to have" in his FLCIS listing. No one listed it as a requirement. It wasn't on my transcript, and no one asked about it in my interviews. I was probably the only COA applicant from my school who didn't take it 2L year and still managed to get over a dozen interviews and multiple offers. Don't sweat it too much. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7379728) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 12:26 AM Author: Arousing main people brunch here is one really good reason for CLS 2L's to drop the course: it seems like there is a very good chance that any given CLS 3L who is in the class will think you're a douchebag for not dropping it. they're going to be clerks while you're applying for your clerkships, and they will have your transcripts. it would be so so so easy for them to toss you from the maybe pile into the trash when they see what you did.
note: i agree that this is unfair and it is the 3L's' own fault, but that does not diminish its truth |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 12:32 AM Author: orange garrison twinkling uncleanness This is extremely likely. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7379830) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 12:43 AM Author: Arousing main people brunch it's not at all unlikely, since all CLS people will try for the second circuit, are disproportionately represented there, and (i imagine) will tend to screen applications from their own school (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7379916) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 12:50 AM Author: orange garrison twinkling uncleanness plus, I really do think that Dorf is going to be supremely annoyed with 2Ls who stay. Add to that the fact that if judges get pissed off because their incoming clerks didn't have Fed Cts (or worse, revoke offers on that basis), those judges are going to be annoyed at CLS - thus lowering current CLS 2Ls chances in those clerkships even without pissed off 3Ls. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7379967) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 12:54 AM Author: Thriller crimson halford Would judges really revoke offers because an incoming clerk hadn't taken fed courts? That sounds a little outlandish. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7380006) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 12:56 AM Author: orange garrison twinkling uncleanness who knows, I'm just thinking worst case. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7380019) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 1:06 AM Author: Grizzly temple chad Judges do what they will. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7380080) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 1:08 AM Author: learning disabled marvelous keepsake machete Why would a judge revoke the offer? Are offers to students without Fed Courts usually made contingent on taking it during 3L or something? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7380085) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 1:10 AM Author: Razzle Locale Clown I've never heard of such a thing. My judge wants our final transcript and for us to take the bar before the clerkship rather during, but other than that, there has been no mention of the fact that I haven't taken fed courts (and don't intend to). (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7380096) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 12:36 AM Author: vermilion wonderful volcanic crater athletic conference *MISINFORMATION ALERT*
KIRKLAND & ELLIS always makes enough spots available in its fed courts sections to serve all interested associates. Moreover, second-year associates at KIRKLAND & ELLIS would not selfishly disregard the pleas of their third-year colleagues, nor would third-year associates at KIRKLAND & ELLIS who need fed courts be stupid enough not to put it as their #1 preference in the KIRKLAND & ELLIS course lottery. |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 12:52 AM Author: Embarrassed to the bone beady-eyed associate senate Why is kirland's Vault rank so low? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7379991) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 12:58 AM Author: vermilion wonderful volcanic crater athletic conference KIRKLAND & ELLIS made some unfortunate choices in the Vault rankings lottery. It has learned from its mistakes and hopes that the other V10 firms will do it a favor to get KIRKLAND & ELLIS back on the path to the success it deserves. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7380032) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 5:03 AM Author: stubborn exciting faggotry sanctuary Ok, this was pretty clever. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7381023) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 9:19 AM Author: Disturbing Cuckold Community Account (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7381222) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 10:27 AM Author: swashbuckling seedy boltzmann pistol Nice. Blogged.
(Btw, you're "schtick" now instead of "flame." Better?) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 10:40 AM Author: Cowardly effete hall persian Isn't there a difference between KirklandTroll and Kirkland Troll? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7381456) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 10:43 AM Author: swashbuckling seedy boltzmann pistol Good point, there was a KirklandTool also as I recall. I need a *MISINFORMATION ALERT* to distinguish this for me. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7381466) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 10:47 AM Author: Cowardly effete hall persian This will help:
http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548734&mc=3&forum_id=2
http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=549497&mc=17&forum_id=2#7262265 |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 12:04 PM Author: vermilion wonderful volcanic crater athletic conference An astute observation. You appear to be KIRKLAND & ELLIS material, assuming you have taken fed courts. Please email the recruiting department with a link to this thread, and they will follow up with you. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7381772) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 12:39 AM Author: Charismatic karate double fault I like the way the Chicago trolls have shown up to remind everyone that they're still the biggest douchebags in the T14. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7379893) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 9:18 AM Author: Disturbing Cuckold Community Account Ha, and I thought ND's system sucked. At least the 3Ls all get to register before the 2Ls. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7381221) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 10:44 AM Author: Carnelian Giraffe Meetinghouse 3Ls have priority over 2Ls in the CLS registration, but there's only so much you can do to combat stupidity. In fact, according to the registration memo, 3Ls each get TWO choices before 2Ls get one. So if 2Ls are beating out 3Ls for fed courts, it presumably means those 3Ls ranked it no higher than THIRD, and have now lyingly claimed to have put it first. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7381468) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 10:56 AM Author: Vivacious Dull Kitchen EDIT: I was wrong. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7381498) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 11:02 AM Author: Carnelian Giraffe Meetinghouse "The General Plan: All students are first assigned a random position within their category (LL.M., 3L, 2L). Based on the position in their group, student selections are considered in the following order. a. Each LL.M. student obtains two choices (limited only by the competition of other LL.M. students and by a percentage limit, described below). b. Each 3L student obtains two choices (limited only by the competition of other 3L students and the preceding LL.M. preference). c. Each 2L student obtains one choice (in competition with other 2L students). d. Each LL.M. obtains a third choice. e. Each 3L obtains a third choice. f. Each LL.M. obtains a fourth choice. g. Each 3L obtains a fourth choice. h. Each 2L obtains second, third and fourth choices." |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 11:37 AM Author: learning disabled marvelous keepsake machete Wow. I thought the 3Ls had a somewhat valid complaint at first, but if they aren't ranking a class they *need* in their last semester any higher than 3rd, I think they pretty much deserve it. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7381654) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 11:04 AM Author: orange garrison twinkling uncleanness No, read the memo.
If 3Ls really did put it second, this should not have happened. All 3Ls who put it second and are WL'd should call the registrar and demand to know how this could have occured. I am now insanely curious. |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 10:57 AM Author: orange garrison twinkling uncleanness You know I thought I remembered reading that (about 2 3L choices before 2Ls), but wasn't sure. But I've talked to so many 3Ls that swear they put it second (I haven't spoken face to face with any that claimed it first) - and a few of them I know personally well enough to really think they aren't lying.
Any possibility the registrar royally screwed up the lottery this year by dropping to the 2Ls after only 1 3L choice? Have 2Ls across classes been "luckier" than in years past? |
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Date: January 10th, 2007 9:28 AM Author: Vivacious Dull Kitchen I apparently ranked it third. I feel like an ass for starting this whole mess if I was dumb enough to rank it that low.
Had it been 2nd, I do think that my attitude of entitlement would have been slightly warranted. But I'm just a retard. I'm ashamed of the mess that this whole thing became. Honestly, I don't know that I'm even going to take the class now.
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Date: January 9th, 2007 9:21 AM Author: Grizzly temple chad (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7381225) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 9:23 AM Author: Disturbing Cuckold Community Account Why don't you just pay someone off? Efficient market hypothesis and all that. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7381231) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 9:23 AM Author: Grizzly temple chad I think refraining from inflicting pain after their insolence for staying in class the first day is payoff enough. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7381234) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 10:45 AM Author: pearly useless brakes indian lodge i think you mean coase theorem. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7381469) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 10:58 AM Author: swashbuckling seedy boltzmann pistol Might just be the game theory strategy where you repeatedly beat your wife in the face until she dies. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7381507) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 11:55 AM Author: orange garrison twinkling uncleanness only blondes? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7381729) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 10:48 AM Author: Cowardly effete hall persian So have any 2Ls dropped? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7381477) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 10:57 AM Author: Vivacious Dull Kitchen A good number have. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7381504) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 11:02 AM Author: orange garrison twinkling uncleanness I'm pretty sure at least 5 2Ls dropped - but then I think 2 2Ls got in off the waitlist. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7381523) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 2:52 PM Author: mischievous parlour doctorate that's fucking awesome (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7382907) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 2:55 PM Author: Harsh lemon hominid (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7382916) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 2:56 PM Author: Galvanic Aggressive Electric Furnace LMFAO. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7382927) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 11:58 AM Author: hairless range travel guidebook As one of the 27, I find this hilarious. Suck it. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7381745) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 1:47 PM Author: Cowardly effete hall persian "Suck it."
And to think law schools aren't full of inconsiderate douchebags.
"Yes, 3Ls underestimated demand and underestimated class size. Sure, they don't have a moral high ground. But it really comes down to this: some of your fellow classmates made a mistake and need to take this class more than you. What's done is done: they're on the waitlist and you're not, but they need to take the class more than you do. So why are you being an ass?
If you want, you can try to justify your actions based on their mistakes. But they can't change what they did and their position on the waitlist. However, you can, and by not dropping the class and taking it next year you are knowingly screwing over your fellow classmates."
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=560475&forum_id=2#7382320)
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Date: January 9th, 2007 2:47 PM Author: hairless range travel guidebook Actually, they don't. FIRST, if a 3L has a clerkship and was fucking idiotic enough to rank Fed Courts at 3 or lower when promising the judge that he'd take it, then that guy deserves to be taken to the cleaners. What's next, when a partner tells you to file the brief by the end of the day, you saunter over to the court at 8 p.m. and find that they're closed? You're an idiot and deserve personal pwnage if you don't take the precautions needed to back up your claim. ALSO, what kind of FAGGOT claims that Fed Courts is "need[ed]" when the fag ranked it 3 or lower? This is all post hoc piss-crying. SECOND, if the 3L doesn't have a clerkship, then I don't give a monkey fuck what they want the class for. There's no "need" except to milk Cravath for a year before going to SDNY or DC Circuit with a longer toolish resume. Plus, it reflects more about the firm, and not the law school, when people have worked a year before clerking, so it's not doing Columbia a favor. MEANWHILE, I'm going to take the class, pimp it as usual, then get my sweet clerkship. While you're sitting there telling me that you need it, I did the stuff I needed to get what I "needed." So fuck you. Columbia will be better off with a 2L and a great clerkship than an incompetent 3L who can't figure out basic Nash theory or discern a "1" from a "4" trying to appease some 10th Circuit bumblefuck magistrate. |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 2:58 PM Author: Galvanic Aggressive Electric Furnace "Columbia will be better off with a 2L and a great clerkship than an incompetent 3L who can't figure out basic Nash theory or discern a "1" from a "4" trying to appease some 10th Circuit bumblefuck magistrate."
It's possible for 2Ls with Bs and B-s in Fed Courts to get great clerkships? |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 3:04 PM Author: Charcoal Aphrodisiac Kitty Cat Ape Why do you think "at least half" of 2Ls will get a B or lower? In the last class that we have data for, 61/82 students got a B+ or higher in the class. 2Ls in the class are more likely to be law review gunners than the 3Ls who waited until their 6th semester to sign up. I'd guess that maybe 15% of 2Ls will get a B or lower and ruin their clerkship chances. 85% will have a good grade and improve their standing. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7382971) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 3:30 PM Author: Galvanic Aggressive Electric Furnace Just addressing the ridiculous "CLS would benefit more from 2Ls taking fed courts" comment. CLS with offers in hand aren't going to lose them if they get a mediocre or bad grade in Fed Courts, but 2Ls with those grades are going to get hurt. Hell, if this thread and others are to be believed then even getting a B+ would do more harm than good for a 2L. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7383130) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 3:36 PM Author: Charcoal Aphrodisiac Kitty Cat Ape I just don't understand how people can say that 2Ls who have thought it over and decided to take the class are being selfish assholes/screwing over 3Ls who waited until their final semester and then ranked this class 3rd or lower. Aren't the bitching 3Ls being selfish assholes and trying to screw over 2Ls in the class?
You may disagree with a 2Ls strategy in taking the class, but ultimately it is an individual preference. You can't prove that they would be better off not taking the class, and I can't prove they will be better off taking it. But they ranked it #1, so they obviously think they'll be better off taking it. Why should they have to pay for the 3Ls mistakes? Remember, this is 3Ls FIFTH CHANCE to take the class, and they ranked it no higher than THIRD. |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 3:41 PM Author: Galvanic Aggressive Electric Furnace It's pretty clear that the 3Ls are in the right here.
1) It's their last chance to take the course. If they don't take it, a lot of them may lose their clerkships or, if they're going to apply in the future, be at a severe disadvantage.
2) 2Ls have been guaranteed a slot in the course with Dorf next term, effectively giving them two #1 picks.
3) Most 3Ls didn't know the enrollment cap was significantly lowered, and thus could not adjust accordingly.
4) Taking fed courts during 3L year will benefit virtually all 2Ls, so reducing the # of 2Ls in the class will not only benefit 3Ls, but benefit most 2Ls as well (even if they don't realize it). |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 2:54 PM Author: Twisted vibrant step-uncle's house This thread pretty much epitomizes why one should avoid going to law school at all costs.
This is the type of petty and selfish shit you have to put up with. |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 3:01 PM Author: Charcoal Aphrodisiac Kitty Cat Ape Seriously. 3L's just expect the administration, professor, and fellow students to drop everything to make up for their mistake. You're graduating from law school in 4 months, time to start taking some responsibility for your own actions. If you promised to take Fed Courts and then ranked it #3 you don't deserve to be in the class. It is like natural selection in the clerkship process. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7382955) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 3:32 PM Author: Galvanic Aggressive Electric Furnace I really don't think it's fair to blame the 3Ls here... it's clear that a lot of them had no idea the enrollment cap was lowered.
I actually wouldn't mind if current CLS 3Ls (and other clerks) actively hurt these 2Ls in the clerkship process. Refusing to drop this class given the circumstances says a *lot* about someone's character. |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 3:59 PM Author: Olive 180 Pit Dorf seems to acknowledge 3L's are lying, but plans to add more seats anyway.
1) According to the registrar's office, any 3L who listed this course as his or her top choice, should have been admitted, so if you are a 3L who told me that you listed the course first and were nonetheless waitlisted, one of the following must be true: a) there was a mistake in the running of the lottery, in which case you should contact academic services and it will be rectified; b) like the voters in Palm Beach County who intended to vote for Gore but actually voted for Buchanan, you made a mistake; c) your memory of your priorities is faulty; or d) your representation of what happened was not honest.
2) I triple-checked with academic services about room availability, and they confirmed that there is no larger law school classroom available during all of the times we are scheduled to meet. They are looking into moving us to a larger room elsewhere in the university, but that is probably not an option.
3) The fire code permits the addition of a substantial number of seats in the back of the room. These seats do not have writing surfaces but they are seats and so, assuming no change to a different room elsewhere in the university, we should be able to add some number of slots (the exact number is still to be determined).
4) I haven't yet received the audio file of yesterday's class. I'll forward it when it's available.
Cheers, Mike
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Date: January 9th, 2007 4:11 PM Author: mischievous parlour doctorate "I know you're a bunch of lazy lying fuckups, but I'll be a nice guy and bail you out anyway."
I like him already. |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 4:12 PM Author: Galvanic Aggressive Electric Furnace Heh. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7383417) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 8:42 PM Author: mischievous parlour doctorate On the other hand, if I were in the position to drop to open up a seat for a 3L, I'd do it in a heartbeat. I'm just saying they deserve some grievous flak along with a seat in the class. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7385360) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 8:37 PM Author: cracking fishy sex offender center As usual, Dorf shows himself to be an infinitely better human being than the tools that he teaches. I'm shocked that he puts up with the people involved on either side.
If I had to rank "not taking fed courts", "taking a class the prof asked you to drop" and "lying to a professor in a really obvious way" on a scale of what would be most likely to bite you in the ass, the latter two dominate the first. |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 8:40 PM Author: Olive 180 Pit i will leave the class when and if i get the rest of my classes lined up to fill the spot. I only got 6 law points through the lottery, I'm not racing out so that people who ranked the class too low and then lied about it can have peace of mind today rather than a week from today. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7385346) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 9:13 PM Author: Curious adulterous philosopher-king preventive strike He better still be around and teaching FC when I get to 2L/3L.
And as per getting a room elsewhere in the university- *points* AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
God, I can't believe I'm going to be attending a TTT again... |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 9:17 PM Author: Comical space Are you guys really students at Columbia?
Someone just emailed this to me. This message board is insane.
I am a 2L in Fed Courts. I am taking it because I loved Dorf for CivPro (and I think he's hot, too). I am interested in litigation and know this is an important class. I am not afraid of a bad grade or clerkships because I don't want to clerk and my grades already kind of suck (although I just got my first B+ in the one grade I got back, so maybe I can clerk after all!)
Seriously, you guys can't be Columbia students. The people I know on Law Review are all really friendly and nice, and people here aren't competitive at all. You guys are making me wish I'd gone to NYU.
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Date: January 9th, 2007 9:21 PM Author: mischievous parlour doctorate This place is for reals. Here your T14 cohorts let their ids run wild and you get a glimpse into what they've been thinking behind your back the entire time. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7385601) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 9:22 PM Author: Comical space Whatever.
I'm sure the same 3Ls who are complaining are the same awkward dorks who offered to give me their outlines at the first Bar Reviews during 1L while making a really pathetic attempt at hitting on me. I doubt people with those kinds of personalities get clerkships, anyway. |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 9:25 PM Author: orange garrison twinkling uncleanness so if you don't want to clerk, why won't you take the deal from Dorf for the guaranteed spot next Fall? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7385636) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 9:27 PM Author: Comical space My schedule worked out so nicely. I don't live near school (this area really sucks) so it's important to me to have my classes in a block, and this class lets me do it and still get four credits. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7385651) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 9:27 PM Author: mischievous parlour doctorate Very sadly, you're probably mistaken. It's rarely the cool ones who end up on the courts. Assuming you really are new to this site and not elaborate flame, this board specializes in over the top vitriol and misinformation, but underneath the nasty crust there's a lot of substance. I'm really surprised you haven't stumbled onto it for one reason or another before now. |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 9:31 PM Author: Charismatic karate double fault So what are you supposed to be, the Columbia bimbo? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7385684) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 9:33 PM Author: Comical space Hardly. I have almost nothing to do with this school. I live in the Village and I only hang out with friends from undergrad and high school. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7385702) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 9:47 PM Author: orange garrison twinkling uncleanness your undergrad was in the city? or you just have a lot of friends from undergrad that moved here? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7385784) |
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Date: January 10th, 2007 9:47 AM Author: Galvanic Aggressive Electric Furnace So let me get this straight... you don't want to clerk, you have shitty grades, you're a 2L, the professor has practically begged you to drop his class, yet you're still stubbornly staying in this class despite the damage you're going to inflict on your 3L classmates' careers?
Either you're pretty good flame, or you're in that "awkward dorks with bad personalities" group and just don't seem to realize it. |
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Date: January 10th, 2007 2:33 PM Author: deep adventurous abode incel I think the schedule argument is a pretty good one. It is clear to me that Dorf is going to make some arrangement to let in all the 3Ls anyway. This girl doesn't have any friends at the law school and doesn't want to be in the neighborhood any longer than necessary. I think she is being selfish (at the expense of people she doesn't like anyway) but I think a lot of people would do the same thing.
She is really part of the group that should have gone to NYU and not suffered the commute. |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 9:39 PM Author: rambunctious spot half-breed This thread makes me embarassed to go to CLS. Look, if you need to take this class to get a clerkship, and you couldn't get it on your schedule, than you're a jackass. Likewise, if you're a 2L who is staying in the class to gain some kind of online cache, than you are also a jackass. So I guess my point is, enjoy this, the first spat of your pointless career, while the rest of us, who look for the least demanding classes, make money and laugh at you. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7385736) |
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Date: January 10th, 2007 9:48 AM Author: Motley Maniacal Blood Rage Dog Poop Holy shit I got in! (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7388596) |
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Date: January 10th, 2007 12:39 PM Author: Grizzly temple chad Evidently, some 2L probably did the right thing. If you get up and walk out of class today, the 3L's will clap and not hate you. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7389258) |
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Date: January 10th, 2007 1:59 PM Author: Erotic saffron stock car STUNNER (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7389617) |
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Date: January 19th, 2007 1:00 PM Author: bateful hell Was this ever resolved?
FWIW, I don't think you really need fed courts to clerk. |
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Date: January 19th, 2007 1:04 PM Author: orange garrison twinkling uncleanness a bunch of people dropped, they put a table in the back... far as I know everyone who was freaking out got in. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7449214) |
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Date: January 19th, 2007 1:05 PM Author: wine bearded knife I'm sure all of those people will move along to a new freak out soon enough. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7449218) |