CLS: ITT 2Ls in Fed Courts Explain Their Selfishness
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Date: January 8th, 2007 4:40 PM Author: Wine Senate
27 2Ls still in Fed Courts, taking spots from 3Ls who might want to clerk or who already have clerkships? Is this not the epitome of the competitive law student: I'm going to do what I want, and fuck what you want?
As a 2L, how can you sit in that class knowing you could be guaranteed to take it next year and you're preventing a 3L from being able to clerk?
EDIT: Please note that I'm not on the waitlist and I never was.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7376130) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 8:03 PM Author: Olive talented spot
I'm not in this class, and if I was I would probably drop it because I'm a nice guy.
But the 3L's whining about this need to sack up and admit that they fucked themselves over. This is the 4th semester you could have taken Fed Courts, and you didn't take it in any of the first 3. If you HAD TO HAVE this course you should have ranked it #1. I have no sympathy for you. Why should you get an extra #1 choice just for being a dumbass? Any 2L who drops this class is doing you a favor, so get off your high horse demanding that they all drop it. There was a competitive lottery for this course, and everyone knew the rules. You fucked up.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7377507) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 8:41 PM Author: Wine Senate
True, they fucked up, but with 1) the deal Dorf offered and 2) the recognition that 3Ls should be allowed to take it over 2Ls, the 2Ls should bow out.
Note that I was never on the waitlist. I post because I'm really surprised and disappointed at the gunner/competitive/stubborn nature of these 2Ls. Sure, there's nothing they could be disciplined for by staying in the class, but the whole thing reminds me of how people say law school used to be: cutthroat, everyone out just for themselves, etc.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7377727) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 9:27 PM Author: nofapping comical faggotry lay
Screw you, 3Ls! (is what I would say if I were a CLS 2L.) It's not my business to mop up after the mess you made.
As for: "you're preventing a 3L from being able to clerk"
I call BS. Are people in danger of losing their clerkships if they don't take the class? No. (If yes for someone, please post so I can laugh at you.)
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7385647) |
Date: January 8th, 2007 4:44 PM Author: Indecent Floppy Brethren Native
How is it that 3Ls with clerkships or who hope to clerk, who hadn't taken Fed Courts before now, didn't think to list it as their first choice?
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7376159) |
Date: January 8th, 2007 5:18 PM Author: jade vibrant sweet tailpipe immigrant
Dude, I didn't sign up for fed courts, but I doubt that the 2L's who did intended to screw you over or were even aware of this problem. But this serves as a good reminder for me to put fed courts first next year.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7376421) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 5:22 PM Author: insane forum
Yeah I like how all of these 3Ls are lying that they put Fed Courts #1. Impossible to do that and get beaten out by a 2L. That said, 2Ls should do the right thing and drop.
My guess is a bunch are waiting for another 4-credit course to open up, in which case they should just drop, because the 3Ls who add Fed Courts will drop other courses and open them up.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7376457) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 5:52 PM Author: cracking nibblets
TITCR re: waiting for some 4-credit alternative to open up.
Although now that each 2L sees that there are 26 other 2Ls who also have not yet budged, he/she may feel less pressured to switch out. Nobody wants to be known as one of 5-10 2Ls who dicked over some 3Ls, but an en masse dick-over doesn't make the individual 2L feel as bad about it. The power of numbers.
But at least there seemed to be one 2L in the class today who was clearly headed in the direction of dropping to make space.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7376672) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 5:56 PM Author: godawful home
Hopefully they're smart enough to get on the waitlists for such classes now.
Also, they don't really need another 4 credit class as long as they have enough to be full time. They're guaranteed a 4 credit class next fall...They should be looking at 3 credit classes as well. And seminars. And research for credit (a MUCH better way to get a good letter for a clerkship, which WON'T hurt their GPA).
I know very few 3Ls struggling for credits. I'm going to have at least 85 after this semster. 86 if I get into Fed Courts.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7376700) |
Date: January 8th, 2007 5:21 PM Author: Embarrassed To The Bone Lemon Corner
I am not a CLS 2L, nor am I in federal courts. But...
What kind of stupid law student wants to do a clerkship but (1) fails to register for it during 2L year, (2) doesn't take it during 3L fall semester, (3) doesn't list it as the first choice for the spring, and (4) whines about other "less needful" students taking the course?
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7376445) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 5:25 PM Author: insane forum
The accepted wisdom is that you don't take it as a 2L because it's a GPA killer and you only need to have done it by the time you start your clerkship. You don't need to have it done when you apply.
My guess is a bunch of 3Ls saved it for the spring because Dorf is a much better professor than Monaghan, and the other choice was taking it as a year long course, with two credits each semester.
Still, you're right, these idiots should have ranked it #1 for the spring.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7376481) |
Date: January 8th, 2007 5:39 PM Author: excitant painfully honest temple
EDIT: Defintely not in it. I won't be taking any classes with Michael Dorf.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7376587) |
Date: January 8th, 2007 5:53 PM Author: excitant painfully honest temple
All of them should definitely drop out, and the course should be reserved for 3Ls.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7376677) |
Date: January 8th, 2007 5:56 PM Author: Pea-brained institution
Spoke to a 2L today who has no interest in clerking but will be taking the class because she finds it interesting and wants to litigate. She won't be dropping.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7376698) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 9:22 AM Author: bat-shit-crazy rehab
How is she "screwing people over"? Are people going to lose clerkships because they didn't take it? Or are you suggesting that not taking it will somehow harm someone's chance to get a SCOTUS clerkship or something?
Also, if someone does ask, how are you going to explain why you didn't take it? "Uh, some 2L bitch wouldn't drop it so I could get in"?
If you weren't so TTT you would have taken it 2L year, pwned it, and had it on your transcript when you interviewed for clerkships.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7381229) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 9:28 PM Author: nofapping comical faggotry lay
This is incorrect: "it doesn't cost her to drop"
The class currently fits her schedule. If she drops it may end up at an inconvenient time slot for her. She should do what's right for her.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7385656)
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Date: January 8th, 2007 7:51 PM Author: godawful home
Date: January 8th, 2007 6:02 PM
Author: PAAAACE
Totally douchebag because she is GUARANTEED to be able to take it next year if she drops. 3Ls don't have a next year (except Overdrive, hahaha).
(http://www.xoxohth.com/thread.php?thread_id=#)
Are you trying to imply that I'm going to fail my last semester of law school? Ok...
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7377426) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 7:57 PM Author: godawful home
It's not a very good joke. If I'm a gunner douche who's whining about my clerkship chances being harmed by 2Ls taking up spots in Fed Courts, it's not likely that I'd fail.
Better just to point out that I'm a douche, or make a joke about that, rather than toss out non-sequiters.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7377467) |
Date: January 8th, 2007 6:01 PM Author: insane forum
Since it's clear that most of the people who want to take this class, 2Ls and 3Ls alike, are douchebags, CLS should reassign the course to HATBURGER. That'll learn 'em.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7376728) |
Date: January 8th, 2007 7:53 PM Author: Flesh bisexual stage
what kind of gunner actually complains about not being able to take this course
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7377441) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 9:29 PM Author: nofapping comical faggotry lay
"3Ls losing clerkships"
3Ls are not losing clerkships because of missing a class.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7385664) |
Date: January 8th, 2007 8:05 PM Author: heady church knife
You have to admire the shrewdness of the 3Ls on the waitlist. They never had to use their top choice on fed courts, but now they get to bitch and whine their way into it.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7377519) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 8:21 PM Author: Olive talented spot
Yes, those 2L's have the advantage of picking through all of the wonderful courses that no one else wanted. Plus it doesn't disadvantage the other 2L's to have 20 slots in Fed Courts next fall already promised to people that drop it this semester.
Just admit it, it is no one's fault but your own that you are in this situation. Hope for the best, but quit bitching at people who signed up for a class that they wanted, and now don't want to drop it.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7377607) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 10:41 PM Author: Bat Shit Crazy Gas Station Halford
I haven't talked to any 3Ls who are in the class who would resent this "advantage" given to 3Ls on the waitlist. I'm in the class, and I certainly wouldn't.
I personally think that the 2Ls run the risk of seriously annoying Dorf by staying in (unless they're doing study abroad next year or something).
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7378716) |
Date: January 8th, 2007 8:10 PM Author: saffron incel
is there a reason that CLS doesn't offer another section? or restrict it to 3Ls?
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7377550) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 8:38 PM Author: copper set multi-billionaire
They offered 3 sections this year. Three.
People were poor planners and now feel entitled.
Current 3Ls had 5 opportunities to take this class, and apparently this is the only time in those 5 that the class has been oversubscribed.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7377712) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 8:47 PM Author: Wine Senate
"What's strange about the whole thing is that this is probably the first time that CLS has had three Fed Cts sections in one year, yet due to rooms they were put in, the structure of the classes, and the professors teaching, the school hasn't significantly increased the number of students who are able to take it. Monaghan's was in 105 (65 cap), Dorf in 105 (65) cap, and Stone was JG107 (which is about the same size as 105). Assuming 107 is a 65 cap, vs. the one Fed Cts section last year (I think Lee was the only class) and it was in 104 (160-170 cap), there's only a 25-35 person increase in the number of people who can take Fed Cts, and that assumes that 65 people are actually expected to take Monaghan and that 65 people are actually expected to take a year long Fed Courts class where stuff you learned in the fall is tested at the end of the Spring."
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=558315&forum_id=2#7362222)
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7377757)
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Date: January 8th, 2007 8:48 PM Author: zippy rigpig alpha
What's obvious here is that alot of people who were interested in taking fed courts this year saw that Dorf (a very popular professor, for those who don't know) would be teaching it in the spring, and aimed to get into that section. That's why the other two sections offered went under-subscribed. That strategy then blew up in the face of some 3Ls who were not careful enough.
If it had been made clear beforehand that Dorf was going to be teaching fed courts again this coming fall, I think alot of 2Ls would not have signed up for this spring's offering in the first place. Certainly that is true for me.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7377766) |
Date: January 8th, 2007 8:49 PM Author: Razzle athletic conference
Congrats, this is the most toolish thread in the history of the board. You sound like a really fun guy.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7377769) |
Date: January 8th, 2007 8:51 PM Author: godawful home
...
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7377792) |
Date: January 8th, 2007 9:15 PM Author: Nighttime cuckoldry hell
Hey 3L's: fuck you.
I'm not in the class, but for 2L's it doesn't follow that being guaranteed a spot next year is EXACTLY equivalent to having a spot right now. For one thing, 2L's might want to have fed courts already on their transcript while applying for clerkships, not just an empty promise to take fed courts. Having already taken fed courts automatically demonstrates an interest/commitment to the subject, plus if you can manage to get a good grade it's even better.
The 3L's who are complaining brought this on themselves. Their asking 2L's to give up something that is their right, to "waste" their #1 choice this semester. Maybe Dorf some 2L's favorite professor. Maybe a 2L deliberately didn't take the two other Fed Courts sections just because they were planning on taking it in spring.
Stop saying that the only reason a 2L would stay in the class is out of spite or douchebaggery.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7377958) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 9:19 PM Author: harsh amber bawdyhouse trust fund
"For one thing, 2L's might want to have fed courts already on their transcript while applying for clerkships, not just an empty promise to take fed courts. Having already taken fed courts automatically demonstrates an interest/commitment to the subject, plus if you can manage to get a good grade it's even better."
It's more likely than not that taking fed courts now would do more harm than good for their clerkship chances, what with the forced curve and all.
"Maybe Dorf some 2L's favorite professor. Maybe a 2L deliberately didn't take the two other Fed Courts sections just because they were planning on taking it in spring with Dorf."
So why can't they take him in the Fall instead?
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7377984) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 9:22 PM Author: Marvelous prole
they shouldn't have to take him in hte fall because they expended their valuable #1 slot on the class now. if they had known that they'd be forced out so that 3Ls who ranked the class second could squirm in, then they would have used that #1 slot on the most hard-to-get seminars, for example.
Edit: though, i suppose the guaranteed seat in the fall gives them a "bonus" #1 slot to use then.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7378015) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 2:55 PM Author: harsh amber bawdyhouse trust fund
Yeah, I'm not sure why people are complaining about this deal Dorf offered. It seems pretty damn good.
Then again each of those 2Ls probably thinks he's soooo brilliant that of *course* he'll be one of the guys who gets an A...
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7382917) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 9:40 PM Author: harsh amber bawdyhouse trust fund
I don't go to CLS so maybe I'm missing something here, but I'm not sure why having one #1 pick for four terms is substantively different from having one #1 pick for two terms, no #1 pick for one term, and two #1 picks for one term. In both cases you get four "top choices" that you're pretty much guaranteed to get into, it's just a question of when you get them. Unless you're in the extremely unique position of visiting another school or doing a study abroad during your fall 3L year you don't seem to lose anything by taking Dorf's deal.
Hell, given how schools tend to have shitty course offerings during the spring it seems that having the equivalent of two #1 picks during a fall semester would be significantly better than having one #1 pick every term.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7378179) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 9:48 PM Author: Marvelous prole
oh -- the confusion is that i'm talking about the "plight" of *other* 2Ls, 2Ls who aren't involved in the current Dorf class in any way. These 2Ls, who may have no idea about the current scandal, may use their #1 slot on Dorf in the fall. But, because of the lingering guarantees to 2Ls who dropped Spring Dorf, the #1 slot of these *other* 2Ls has less "class-getting power" in the fall than it would otherwise.
it's marginal, but i was trying to identify a party getting hurt.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7378249)
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Date: January 8th, 2007 9:25 PM Author: Nighttime cuckoldry hell
Fine, but my second point is that what if a 2L PLANNED on taking fed courts THIS YEAR. So they deliberately opted out in the fall to be able to take in the spring, whether it was Dorf or not.
There's no doubt that having fed courts on your transcript is a boost during the clerkship hunt. The Professor at CLS who is the clerkship director even told me this (for example, can you name a single non-mandatory class that is more relevant to a clerkship?). All you guys are talking about is the fear of getting a bad grade. Maybe 2L's are marginal clerkship candidates and want to roll the dice.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7378045) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 9:37 PM Author: harsh amber bawdyhouse trust fund
"Fine, but my second point is that what if a 2L PLANNED on taking fed courts THIS YEAR. So they deliberately opted out in the fall to be able to take in the spring, whether it was Dorf or not."
If it's about taking fed courts as a 2L and not necessarily about taking fed courts with Dorf, why not take fed courts in the fall or take the yearlong section? It sounds like Dorf was a big motivator for the 2Ls here too.
As for the boost, you have to keep in mind that for 3Ls it's not a matter of having a "boost" or not but actually being able to apply for competitive clerkships. It's their absolute last chance to take it at all, so why not accomodate them?
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7378145) |
Date: January 8th, 2007 9:30 PM Author: Nighttime cuckoldry hell
Mr. Dizzle, are you clerking or planning to clerk in the future?
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7378083) |
Date: January 8th, 2007 9:47 PM Author: Cerebral overrated preventive strike
I'm glad I screwed over a 3L last year by taking Fed Courts as a 2L, so I don't have to deal with being screwed over by a 2L this year.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7378242) |
Date: January 8th, 2007 10:30 PM Author: Ruddy lodge gay wizard
Is the class being taught next year taught by the same professor? Is it guaranteed to be in a tolerable timeslot that won't conflict with a ton of other desirable courses? Are there still lots of good classes open to 2Ls who drop FedCourts?
I don't really know the inside story here, but I can see some of these things motivating the 2Ls. The 3Ls who delayed FedCourts until their last semester were presumably worried about things like schedules and professors and other classes too, since they seem to have passed up several opportunities to take the class in the past. I'm not sure if it's entirely fair to expect 2Ls to brush all those concerns aside.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7378607) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 10:33 PM Author: arousing twinkling uncleanness
The professor will teach the same class next year and guaranteed the 2Ls who dropped this year admission into that class.
CLS offered 2 sections of Fed Cts in the Fall of 2006. One of them is with a notoriously difficult prof (Monaghan) and the other was a weird 2 semester deal with very few takers.
Someone ran the numbers and figured that even though there were 3 sections offered in fall 06 and spring 07 there were not any more seats offered than other years where only 1 section was offered per year.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7378639) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 10:37 PM Author: Ruddy lodge gay wizard
That at least clears up the professor issue. Still, it makes it kind of hard on 2Ls who have specific classes they'd like to take as 3Ls or who want to do clinics - if they have conflicts, they're going to be out of luck.
Sounds like the school is primarily at fault (it's too bad they can't find a way to put the class in a larger room so it could have more seats). After that I'd say the 3Ls are at fault, though. They put it off and put it off, and then apparently didn't rank it first when the one semester they were willing to take it came around. It would be nice of the 2Ls to give up their spots, but I can see how they might not be willing to trade a decent schedule for a potentially fucked up one next year or how they might be wary about spending this semester in whatever random class happens to be open.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7378677) |
Date: January 8th, 2007 10:51 PM Author: hairraiser flushed background story
This thread gives me so much ammo for my Chicago trolling.
Seriously though, CLS 2Ls in this class: You sound like you're being real douchebags. Nobody has articulated anything even close to a real reason for not dropping. Sure, the 3Ls should have ranked it #1. But you shouldn't be dicks.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7378799) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 11:20 PM Author: Nighttime cuckoldry hell
I've articulated reasons for not dropping, HTH.
The Professor at CLS who was the clerkship chair last year specifically told me that it's good (not necessary or great, but good) to have fed courts on your transcript before applying to clerkships. Obviously anyone can see that HAVING ALREADY TAKEN THE CLASS is a better indication of taking fed courts than promising to take the class. And if you do well, it would be an even bigger boon.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7379068) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 11:58 PM Author: Nighttime cuckoldry hell
Look, I'll just respond to both of you. Since fed courts is a difficult class, the intrinsic value of having it on your resume can be (obviously) outweighed by the negative value of getting a bad grade.
But getting a bad grade is an independent negative consideration that is to be weighed against the positive consideration of having it on your resume. All 2L's considering taking the class should keep this in mind and come to a serious decision. BUT for certain 2L's who give it a lot of thought and have serious reasons to think they can do well (i.e. A's in Civ Pro and Con Law, a williness to put in a tremendous amount of work), I don't see how it's irrational.
GTO's argument is something like: since at least half the 2L's will do worse, it follows that it is completely irrational for any 2L to want to take the class as a boost.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7379449) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 11:49 PM Author: hairraiser flushed background story
Your clerkship application is going to be dominated by so many other factors that the lack of FedJur could only be considered sub-optimal in a metaphysical sense.
On the other hand, having 3L friends doing a clerkship that are willing to put in a good word for you is far more important. Pissing off potential 3L friends by knowingly taking a spot in a class they need is a much more direct route to a sub-optimal application.
And that's the last I'll say on this given that it's not my school, so I don't really need to butt in.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7379355) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 11:30 PM Author: Nighttime cuckoldry hell
That doesn't disprove what Witt told me. HTH.
Look, I'm not even one of the 2L's in the class. I just think that it's completely outrageous and unfair for everyone to say that these 2L's HAVE NO REASON WHATSOEVER to remain in the class. If they really didn't have any reasons, these 2L's wouldn't be in the class in the first place (bid it #1 etc). Everyone is trying to scare 2L's by saying it's completely irrational to stay in the class ("OOOOGA BOOOGA YOU'RE GOING TO GET A B-!!!!"). I think that's silly.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7379166) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 11:36 PM Author: Nighttime cuckoldry hell
(1) The problem with the 3L's doesn't count on the point of whether the 2L's have an affirmative reason to take the class. It might weigh against the reason, but it doesn't make the affirmative reason disappear.
(2) Like I keep saying, a significant affirmative reason, at least for some 2L's, is to have fed courts on their transcipts before applying to clerkships. This affirmative reason would be compromised, since the offer only guarantees that (a) they'll be able to fed courts 3L year, and (b) they'll be able to take it with Dorf.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7379215) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 11:49 PM Author: godawful home
Don't classes that you're currently registered for appear on your transcript? They definitely appear on your unofficial one (Lawnet, see grades, all) but EIP was long enough ago for me to forget what the official ones look like. Thus, won't all 2Ls who take Dorf's offer have Fed Courts on their transcript, and have the benefit of not yet having a grade in it? Isn't that ideal?
Fed Courts is an important class to clerking, but having a good grade in it does not mean you're a lock for a clerkship. But getting an average/bad grade in it will hurt. I don't understand the risk that 2Ls are taking.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7379360)
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Date: January 9th, 2007 12:25 AM Author: jade vibrant sweet tailpipe immigrant
"But getting an average/bad grade in it will hurt. I don't understand the risk that 2Ls are taking."
It could be that the 2L's have average/bad grades and figure that their only shot at a good clerkship is to get an A in fed courts. I think this is a legitimate strategy. I took the safer route (postponing fed courts until next year) but if I had average grades I might have tried the risk-it-all-on-fed-courts strategy. Hell, it's kind of like doubling down, except in a very, very nerdy way.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7379746) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 2:53 AM Author: Demanding Indirect Expression House
Thanks for reminding us that you're not one of those poor slobs with average grades.
And it's a ridiculous strategy. The odds that you're suddenly going to beat out a bunch of people with better grades are pretty slim. You may as well drop the class and spend the time in Atlantic City, since if you hit the jackpot, you won't need a clerkship or job at all.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7380609) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 11:35 PM Author: multi-colored cobalt really tough guy
As another notorious Chicago troll, I just want to agree with MTG here. The failure to secure a larger room for FedJur reflects badly upon the CLS administration. And the failure of the 2Ls to drop the course reflects terribly upon the student body.
I'm not just trying to taunt here - I'm genuinely surprised that the CLS Class of '08 is so chock full o'douchebags. I mean, don't get me wrong: I'm an immense douchebag myself. But it's funny to realize that, had I attended CLS, I would have been far behind many of my colleagues in this department.
Thus ends my dumping on an otherwise superb peer school.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7379204) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 11:43 PM Author: Nighttime cuckoldry hell
"no serious articulable reason"
I don't give a fuck what you think, but wanting fed courts on your transcript for clerkships is a serious, reasonable, and rational desire or preference for a significant number of law students. Stop demeaning their preferences by calling it "no serious articulable reason." At the very least, the fact that the clerkship director has said that having fed courts is "good" makes it reasonable preference.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7379295) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 11:45 PM Author: multi-colored cobalt really tough guy
No, it doesn't. Really, it doesn't. It's a justification that may superficially appear reasonable, but is quite flimsy once analyzed and (especially) matched up against the experience of successful clerkship applicants.
Either way, agree or disagree, you should stop cursing at me. It's beneath you. If, as you say, you don't really have a dog in this hunt, there's certainly no reason for you to get so worked up.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7379319) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 11:51 PM Author: Nighttime cuckoldry hell
Now you have empirical data for successful clerkship applicants? Can you please provide this deep "analysis" you're alluding to?
I have never ever said that wanting fed courts on your transcript is overriding reason or hugely signiciant or important. It's just reasonable and rational. I find it demeaning everyone who wants to claim that there is no reason whatsoever for these 2L's to want this. That's just false.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7379385) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 11:54 PM Author: multi-colored cobalt really tough guy
I never claimed there was "no reason whatsoever" for 2Ls to want to take the course now, and to fail to drop once they realize that 3Ls need it desperately.
I claimed, rather, that there was no GOOD reason whatsoever. Significant distinction. I believe the wording I used was "no serious articulable reason."
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7379419) |
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Date: January 8th, 2007 11:44 PM Author: Nighttime cuckoldry hell
"But it's funny to realize that, had I attended CLS, I would have been far behind many of my colleagues in this department."
He's implicitly claiming he would take the high ground of dropping the class if he were in their situation.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7379306) |
Date: January 8th, 2007 11:45 PM Author: Cerebral overrated preventive strike
2Ls: DO NOT DROP. THE SAME THING HAPPENED LAST YEAR, AND IT WILL HAPPEN NEXT YEAR TOO. YOU DO NOT WANT TO BE IN THE POSITION OF ONE OF THESE 3LS BEGGING TO TAKE THE CLASS NEXT YEAR BECAUSE 'IT IS YOUR LAST SEMESTER'
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7379312) |
Date: January 8th, 2007 11:47 PM Author: carmine metal state organic girlfriend
Dear 3L asshats: congrats at listing FedCourts #4 and lying to Dorf that you listed it #1!
Dear 2Ls: Congrats, now you will have a better chance at landing your dream clerkship with an 'A' in Fed Courts already on your resume (shouldn't be too hard to beat a bunch of last semester slacker 3Ls on a curve).
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7379337) |
Date: January 9th, 2007 12:02 AM Author: Nighttime cuckoldry hell
I'M LEAVING THIS THREAD. THIS IS WHY I SIGNED UP FOR THE YEAR LONG FED COURTS!!!
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7379485) |
Date: January 9th, 2007 12:24 AM Author: laughsome son of senegal
If you want to clerk, lack of fed courts on your transcript is not going to be the dealbreaker. I applied widely for COA clerkships and recalled only one judge who mentioned as a "nice to have" in his FLCIS listing. No one listed it as a requirement. It wasn't on my transcript, and no one asked about it in my interviews. I was probably the only COA applicant from my school who didn't take it 2L year and still managed to get over a dozen interviews and multiple offers. Don't sweat it too much.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7379728) |
Date: January 9th, 2007 12:26 AM Author: Snowy Sick Ticket Booth Stock Car
here is one really good reason for CLS 2L's to drop the course: it seems like there is a very good chance that any given CLS 3L who is in the class will think you're a douchebag for not dropping it. they're going to be clerks while you're applying for your clerkships, and they will have your transcripts. it would be so so so easy for them to toss you from the maybe pile into the trash when they see what you did.
note: i agree that this is unfair and it is the 3L's' own fault, but that does not diminish its truth
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7379749) |
Date: January 9th, 2007 12:36 AM Author: rambunctious giraffe haunted graveyard
*MISINFORMATION ALERT*
KIRKLAND & ELLIS always makes enough spots available in its fed courts sections to serve all interested associates. Moreover, second-year associates at KIRKLAND & ELLIS would not selfishly disregard the pleas of their third-year colleagues, nor would third-year associates at KIRKLAND & ELLIS who need fed courts be stupid enough not to put it as their #1 preference in the KIRKLAND & ELLIS course lottery.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7379865) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 10:27 AM Author: contagious dilemma volcanic crater
Nice. Blogged.
(Btw, you're "schtick" now instead of "flame." Better?)
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7381413) |
Date: January 9th, 2007 12:39 AM Author: Demanding Indirect Expression House
I like the way the Chicago trolls have shown up to remind everyone that they're still the biggest douchebags in the T14.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7379893) |
Date: January 9th, 2007 9:18 AM Author: khaki half-breed
Ha, and I thought ND's system sucked. At least the 3Ls all get to register before the 2Ls.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7381221) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 11:02 AM Author: heady church knife
"The General Plan: All students are first assigned a random position within their category (LL.M., 3L, 2L).
Based on the position in their group, student selections are considered in the following order.
a. Each LL.M. student obtains two choices (limited only by the competition
of other LL.M. students and by a percentage limit, described below).
b. Each 3L student obtains two choices (limited only by the competition
of other 3L students and the preceding LL.M. preference).
c. Each 2L student obtains one choice (in competition with other 2L students).
d. Each LL.M. obtains a third choice.
e. Each 3L obtains a third choice.
f. Each LL.M. obtains a fourth choice.
g. Each 3L obtains a fourth choice.
h. Each 2L obtains second, third and fourth choices."
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7381524) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 11:04 AM Author: Bat Shit Crazy Gas Station Halford
No, read the memo.
If 3Ls really did put it second, this should not have happened. All 3Ls who put it second and are WL'd should call the registrar and demand to know how this could have occured. I am now insanely curious.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7381528) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 10:57 AM Author: Bat Shit Crazy Gas Station Halford
You know I thought I remembered reading that (about 2 3L choices before 2Ls), but wasn't sure. But I've talked to so many 3Ls that swear they put it second (I haven't spoken face to face with any that claimed it first) - and a few of them I know personally well enough to really think they aren't lying.
Any possibility the registrar royally screwed up the lottery this year by dropping to the 2Ls after only 1 3L choice? Have 2Ls across classes been "luckier" than in years past?
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7381505) |
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Date: January 10th, 2007 9:28 AM Author: godawful home
I apparently ranked it third. I feel like an ass for starting this whole mess if I was dumb enough to rank it that low.
Had it been 2nd, I do think that my attitude of entitlement would have been slightly warranted. But I'm just a retard. I'm ashamed of the mess that this whole thing became. Honestly, I don't know that I'm even going to take the class now.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7388548)
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Date: January 9th, 2007 9:21 AM Author: yapping boistinker corn cake
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7381225) |
Date: January 9th, 2007 10:48 AM Author: Rusted boyish antidepressant drug
So have any 2Ls dropped?
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7381477) |
Date: January 9th, 2007 11:58 AM Author: confused french shitlib
As one of the 27, I find this hilarious. Suck it.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7381745) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 1:47 PM Author: Rusted boyish antidepressant drug
"Suck it."
And to think law schools aren't full of inconsiderate douchebags.
"Yes, 3Ls underestimated demand and underestimated class size. Sure, they don't have a moral high ground. But it really comes down to this: some of your fellow classmates made a mistake and need to take this class more than you. What's done is done: they're on the waitlist and you're not, but they need to take the class more than you do. So why are you being an ass?
If you want, you can try to justify your actions based on their mistakes. But they can't change what they did and their position on the waitlist. However, you can, and by not dropping the class and taking it next year you are knowingly screwing over your fellow classmates."
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=560475&forum_id=2#7382320)
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7382432)
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Date: January 9th, 2007 2:47 PM Author: confused french shitlib
Actually, they don't.
FIRST, if a 3L has a clerkship and was fucking idiotic enough to rank Fed Courts at 3 or lower when promising the judge that he'd take it, then that guy deserves to be taken to the cleaners. What's next, when a partner tells you to file the brief by the end of the day, you saunter over to the court at 8 p.m. and find that they're closed? You're an idiot and deserve personal pwnage if you don't take the precautions needed to back up your claim. ALSO, what kind of FAGGOT claims that Fed Courts is "need[ed]" when the fag ranked it 3 or lower? This is all post hoc piss-crying.
SECOND, if the 3L doesn't have a clerkship, then I don't give a monkey fuck what they want the class for. There's no "need" except to milk Cravath for a year before going to SDNY or DC Circuit with a longer toolish resume. Plus, it reflects more about the firm, and not the law school, when people have worked a year before clerking, so it's not doing Columbia a favor.
MEANWHILE, I'm going to take the class, pimp it as usual, then get my sweet clerkship. While you're sitting there telling me that you need it, I did the stuff I needed to get what I "needed." So fuck you. Columbia will be better off with a 2L and a great clerkship than an incompetent 3L who can't figure out basic Nash theory or discern a "1" from a "4" trying to appease some 10th Circuit bumblefuck magistrate.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7382882) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 2:58 PM Author: harsh amber bawdyhouse trust fund
"Columbia will be better off with a 2L and a great clerkship than an incompetent 3L who can't figure out basic Nash theory or discern a "1" from a "4" trying to appease some 10th Circuit bumblefuck magistrate."
It's possible for 2Ls with Bs and B-s in Fed Courts to get great clerkships?
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7382938) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 3:36 PM Author: Olive talented spot
I just don't understand how people can say that 2Ls who have thought it over and decided to take the class are being selfish assholes/screwing over 3Ls who waited until their final semester and then ranked this class 3rd or lower. Aren't the bitching 3Ls being selfish assholes and trying to screw over 2Ls in the class?
You may disagree with a 2Ls strategy in taking the class, but ultimately it is an individual preference. You can't prove that they would be better off not taking the class, and I can't prove they will be better off taking it. But they ranked it #1, so they obviously think they'll be better off taking it. Why should they have to pay for the 3Ls mistakes? Remember, this is 3Ls FIFTH CHANCE to take the class, and they ranked it no higher than THIRD.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7383160) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 3:41 PM Author: harsh amber bawdyhouse trust fund
It's pretty clear that the 3Ls are in the right here.
1) It's their last chance to take the course. If they don't take it, a lot of them may lose their clerkships or, if they're going to apply in the future, be at a severe disadvantage.
2) 2Ls have been guaranteed a slot in the course with Dorf next term, effectively giving them two #1 picks.
3) Most 3Ls didn't know the enrollment cap was significantly lowered, and thus could not adjust accordingly.
4) Taking fed courts during 3L year will benefit virtually all 2Ls, so reducing the # of 2Ls in the class will not only benefit 3Ls, but benefit most 2Ls as well (even if they don't realize it).
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7383196) |
Date: January 9th, 2007 2:54 PM Author: Offensive cuck mother
This thread pretty much epitomizes why one should avoid going to law school at all costs.
This is the type of petty and selfish shit you have to put up with.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7382912) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 3:32 PM Author: harsh amber bawdyhouse trust fund
I really don't think it's fair to blame the 3Ls here... it's clear that a lot of them had no idea the enrollment cap was lowered.
I actually wouldn't mind if current CLS 3Ls (and other clerks) actively hurt these 2Ls in the clerkship process. Refusing to drop this class given the circumstances says a *lot* about someone's character.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7383143) |
Date: January 9th, 2007 3:59 PM Author: Startling deranged boltzmann
Dorf seems to acknowledge 3L's are lying, but plans to add more seats anyway.
1) According to the registrar's office, any 3L who listed this course as
his or her top choice, should have been admitted, so if you are a 3L who
told me that you listed the course first and were nonetheless waitlisted,
one of the following must be true: a) there was a mistake in the running of
the lottery, in which case you should contact academic services and it will
be rectified; b) like the voters in Palm Beach County who intended to vote
for Gore but actually voted for Buchanan, you made a mistake; c) your
memory of your priorities is faulty; or d) your representation of what
happened was not honest.
2) I triple-checked with academic services about room availability, and
they confirmed that there is no larger law school classroom available
during all of the times we are scheduled to meet. They are looking into
moving us to a larger room elsewhere in the university, but that is
probably not an option.
3) The fire code permits the addition of a substantial number of seats in
the back of the room. These seats do not have writing surfaces but they
are seats and so, assuming no change to a different room elsewhere in the
university, we should be able to add some number of slots (the exact number
is still to be determined).
4) I haven't yet received the audio file of yesterday's class. I'll
forward it when it's available.
Cheers,
Mike
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7383333)
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Date: January 9th, 2007 4:11 PM Author: aromatic adulterous field mental disorder
"I know you're a bunch of lazy lying fuckups, but I'll be a nice guy and bail you out anyway."
I like him already.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7383410) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 8:37 PM Author: angry therapy
As usual, Dorf shows himself to be an infinitely better human being than the tools that he teaches. I'm shocked that he puts up with the people involved on either side.
If I had to rank "not taking fed courts", "taking a class the prof asked you to drop" and "lying to a professor in a really obvious way" on a scale of what would be most likely to bite you in the ass, the latter two dominate the first.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7385332) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 9:13 PM Author: exhilarant shimmering milk
He better still be around and teaching FC when I get to 2L/3L.
And as per getting a room elsewhere in the university- *points* AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
God, I can't believe I'm going to be attending a TTT again...
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7385556) |
Date: January 9th, 2007 9:17 PM Author: soul-stirring ruby famous landscape painting
Are you guys really students at Columbia?
Someone just emailed this to me. This message board is insane.
I am a 2L in Fed Courts. I am taking it because I loved Dorf for CivPro (and I think he's hot, too). I am interested in litigation and know this is an important class. I am not afraid of a bad grade or clerkships because I don't want to clerk and my grades already kind of suck (although I just got my first B+ in the one grade I got back, so maybe I can clerk after all!)
Seriously, you guys can't be Columbia students. The people I know on Law Review are all really friendly and nice, and people here aren't competitive at all. You guys are making me wish I'd gone to NYU.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7385586)
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Date: January 9th, 2007 9:22 PM Author: soul-stirring ruby famous landscape painting
Whatever.
I'm sure the same 3Ls who are complaining are the same awkward dorks who offered to give me their outlines at the first Bar Reviews during 1L while making a really pathetic attempt at hitting on me. I doubt people with those kinds of personalities get clerkships, anyway.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7385610) |
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Date: January 9th, 2007 9:27 PM Author: aromatic adulterous field mental disorder
Very sadly, you're probably mistaken. It's rarely the cool ones who end up on the courts.
Assuming you really are new to this site and not elaborate flame, this board specializes in over the top vitriol and misinformation, but underneath the nasty crust there's a lot of substance. I'm really surprised you haven't stumbled onto it for one reason or another before now.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7385649) |
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Date: January 10th, 2007 9:47 AM Author: harsh amber bawdyhouse trust fund
So let me get this straight... you don't want to clerk, you have shitty grades, you're a 2L, the professor has practically begged you to drop his class, yet you're still stubbornly staying in this class despite the damage you're going to inflict on your 3L classmates' careers?
Either you're pretty good flame, or you're in that "awkward dorks with bad personalities" group and just don't seem to realize it.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7388594) |
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Date: January 10th, 2007 2:33 PM Author: effete chest-beating range hairy legs
I think the schedule argument is a pretty good one. It is clear to me that Dorf is going to make some arrangement to let in all the 3Ls anyway. This girl doesn't have any friends at the law school and doesn't want to be in the neighborhood any longer than necessary. I think she is being selfish (at the expense of people she doesn't like anyway) but I think a lot of people would do the same thing.
She is really part of the group that should have gone to NYU and not suffered the commute.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7389818) |
Date: January 9th, 2007 9:39 PM Author: alcoholic locus associate
This thread makes me embarassed to go to CLS. Look, if you need to take this class to get a clerkship, and you couldn't get it on your schedule, than you're a jackass. Likewise, if you're a 2L who is staying in the class to gain some kind of online cache, than you are also a jackass. So I guess my point is, enjoy this, the first spat of your pointless career, while the rest of us, who look for the least demanding classes, make money and laugh at you.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7385736) |
Date: January 10th, 2007 9:48 AM Author: arousing twinkling uncleanness
Holy shit I got in!
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7388596) |
Date: January 10th, 2007 1:59 PM Author: maroon property ape
STUNNER
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7389617) |
Date: January 19th, 2007 1:00 PM Author: Up-to-no-good Beady-eyed Roommate
Was this ever resolved?
FWIW, I don't think you really need fed courts to clerk.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=559859&forum_id=2#7449188) |
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