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The Billing Fraud in Biglaw is really absurd
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Date: February 8th, 2013 2:11 PM Author: insanely creepy school It is crazy that you pay $600 an hour for someone with 5 years of experience, and they still screw you by only working 40 minutes out of every hour they bill, sometimes less.
I have seen some absurd bills in my time...especially from partners who I know for a fact didn't do anything and weren't involved in a mater on a day they didn't bill time. |
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Date: February 8th, 2013 2:13 PM Author: bistre curious locale (shitboomer who rails against someone w 5 years experience being worth $600/hr) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#22595805) |
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Date: February 8th, 2013 2:14 PM Author: insanely creepy school I was that 5th year. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#22595827) |
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Date: February 8th, 2013 2:16 PM Author: bistre curious locale it doesn't really matter. the cost of legal services from a big firm is well known; that's just the game and there's no need to worry about the details. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#22595843) |
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Date: February 8th, 2013 2:19 PM Author: insanely creepy school true. just interesting. I wonder if clients really understand that they are really paying like $900 per hour for a midlevel. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#22595875) |
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Date: February 8th, 2013 2:22 PM Author: bistre curious locale $900/hr for a gunner midlevel who is running the case and doing all the real work may be a better value than paying $600/hr for a 2nd year or paying $1200 for a partner to do shit that a monkey can do. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#22595897) |
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Date: February 8th, 2013 10:25 PM Author: massive rehab masturbator cr. lol just lol at the partner billing rates compared to what they actually do. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#22599111) |
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Date: February 8th, 2013 2:52 PM Author: contagious theater stage therapy What's absurd is $490/hr for a 1st year. Can't understand why GCs don't always ask for a 50% discount for 1-18 months attorneys. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#22596083) |
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Date: February 8th, 2013 2:56 PM Author: insanely creepy school is that what they are charging these days in NYC?
In my day, I only was like $285 as a first year in CA. A steal. |
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Date: February 8th, 2013 3:00 PM Author: contagious theater stage therapy A CA biglaw firm offered $300/hr for a 5th year. Are CA offices a lot more discounted than NYC offices? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#22596126) |
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Date: February 8th, 2013 3:04 PM Author: insanely creepy school Mine wasn't. By 5th year I was over $500. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#22596150) |
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Date: February 8th, 2013 3:07 PM Author: Titillating unhinged turdskin I'm just over $400. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#22596168) |
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Date: February 8th, 2013 3:10 PM Author: insanely creepy school well, now i'm just under or at depending on the client...but not in biglaw anymore. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#22596195) |
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Date: January 8th, 2014 12:22 PM Author: transparent stage incel full hour right? do you do outcalls? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#24798066) |
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Date: January 8th, 2014 12:39 PM Author: Wonderful drab sweet tailpipe (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#24798133) |
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Date: February 8th, 2013 10:44 PM Author: orange stead corn cake That is not a first tier firm. 5th year rates are MUCH higher than that in CA. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#22599270) |
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Date: February 8th, 2013 3:03 PM Author: bistre curious locale the issue is that the 1st yr work could be done by a paralegal, but the rules consider it to be done by a lawyer. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#22596141) |
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Date: February 8th, 2013 8:40 PM Author: Exciting lavender whorehouse goal in life what types of first year work could be done by a paralegal? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#22598390) |
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Date: February 8th, 2013 9:26 PM Author: bistre curious locale if a partner tells her what to do, an experienced paralegal who has a brain could take the first cut at most shit that is more fact-based than caselaw-based. obviously it needs to be reviewed by an attorney, but most of the shit is copying and pasting boilerplate and a half-degree above monkeywork. for example, drafting and responding to written discovery... preparing a complaint or an answer... pulling documents in preparation for a dep... doc collection and witness interviews... and of course doc review / preparing privilege log entries (which are considered "legal work"). at small firms, paralegals actually do all of these tasks. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#22598666) |
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Date: February 8th, 2013 9:36 PM Author: motley big-titted coldplay fan sneaky criminal good answer, i can't think of anything a paralegal couldn't do except for hardcore legal research where you have to understand interplay between statutes and case law, dicta v holdings, etc. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#22598733) |
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Date: February 8th, 2013 9:39 PM Author: bistre curious locale yeah, any legal research and writing is probably best done by an attorney. also, things that require legal skill and strategy that comes with experience aren't going to be ideal tasks for attorneys, such as dep/trial prep. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#22598758) |
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Date: February 8th, 2013 9:43 PM Author: motley big-titted coldplay fan sneaky criminal lol yep, but even in dep/trial prep experienced paralegals have a leg-up on junior associates (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#22598790) |
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Date: January 8th, 2014 12:30 PM Author: Poppy telephone spot "i can't think of anything a paralegal couldn't do"
Write. They can't do that. |
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Date: February 8th, 2013 10:01 PM Author: Exciting lavender whorehouse goal in life i dunno man. the work itself isn't rocket science, but most of the paralegals i worked with weren't good for much more than printing stuff out.
i was in corporate, so you might think at first blush it would be easier for them to do the work, but i don't think i met one whom i would trust to carefully read through, e.g., a stack of precedent risk factor disclosures. Man, it's actually kinda lulzy to think about some of those paralegals taking a first cut at the indemnification provisions in an M&A deal. |
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Date: February 8th, 2013 10:07 PM Author: bistre curious locale the thing you are missing is that biglaw hires shitty paralegals for the most part. the business model is to have all the shitwork done by $300-400/hr JDs. and even the experienced paralegals aren't trained to do anything useful because they've been hired to make fancy binders for 20 years, not to do the first draft of a document drafting.
the paralegals at competent small firms are of a much higher quality than in biglaw. i know a number of pltf's firms that have smart lawyers and do good work -- they're all partner heavy and have paralegals who have been doing this shit for 20 years. |
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Date: February 10th, 2013 1:40 AM Author: Trip alpha very credited, in my experience. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#22605962) |
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Date: January 8th, 2014 11:13 AM Author: doobsian irradiated macaca property many paralegals at v10's are ivy league grads looking to go to law school.
they are not dumb. yet they have no skin in the game so their work just doesn't cut it--riddled with errors. |
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Date: January 8th, 2014 12:23 PM Author: Spectacular learning disabled stag film CR. if you want shit done right you need one of the career sr paralegals to do it. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#24798070) |
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Date: February 8th, 2013 11:57 PM Author: marvelous point electric furnace "at small firms, paralegals actually do all of these tasks."
lol clearly u have never worked at a small firm if you think they get MORE admin support than a biglaw firm. |
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Date: January 8th, 2014 12:30 PM Author: Poppy telephone spot "preparing a complaint"
Yeah, maybe in some sort of debt collection mill. |
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Date: October 31st, 2018 9:27 PM Author: Primrose space lol paralegals at bigfirms don't typically stay very long. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#37135413) |
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Date: July 15th, 2020 7:12 PM Author: turquoise stage We have a no first year or summer associate rule with our firms. Generally, we work directly with partners or senior assocs only. On occasion, we have allowed it for minor things. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#40614248) |
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Date: February 8th, 2013 8:39 PM Author: cruel-hearted headpube dingle berry and yet there are those like me who have been working since 6 am and have a few hours to go who actually work more than what we bill.
eat a cockmeat sandwich you fuck. some of us actually work hard. |
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Date: February 10th, 2013 3:02 PM Author: Vibrant umber partner you seem very inefficient. are you about to be fired? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#22608124) |
Date: February 8th, 2013 2:15 PM Author: Alcoholic giraffe selfie To be fair,
Mass fraud and overcharging relative to value provided is nowhere near limited to biglaw. Just do the entire medical system in our country. |
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Date: February 8th, 2013 2:25 PM Author: mint faggotry menage The entire professional services industry as a whole is guilty of this. Even the people that don't bill hourly are still defrauding their companies as "full time" salaried employees. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#22595928) |
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Date: February 9th, 2013 2:12 PM Author: vigorous wine chapel lol cr. full time = 15 hrs of honest work per week. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#22601507) |
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Date: February 8th, 2013 3:28 PM Author: Diverse Jade Church fair point (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#22596261) |
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Date: February 8th, 2013 8:37 PM Author: appetizing crawly brunch idea he suggested *charges you $85 to change your oil* (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#22598368) |
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Date: February 8th, 2013 9:47 PM Author: know-it-all soul-stirring box office lol where the fuck are you going? MANFUCKINGHATTAN service shops or something? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#22598811) |
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Date: February 9th, 2013 12:05 AM Author: Razzmatazz knife LOL WTF (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#22599682) |
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Date: February 8th, 2013 2:22 PM Author: sooty talking philosopher-king forum I thought one of the main reasons why corporations and rich individuals would hire BigLaw to handle a matter and pay $600/hour was for the simple fact that it is BigLaw and they have a little more weight in the courtroom. Is this true? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#22595892) |
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Date: February 8th, 2013 2:24 PM Author: bistre curious locale 1) biglaw is generally going to be more competent than any other firm (other than a boutique with former biglaw people)
2) biglaw helps a risk-averse GC save his ass if the company loses ("hey, we hired [v10 firm] and lost, what more could we do") |
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Date: February 8th, 2013 2:24 PM Author: Saffron reading party newt (2) is like 99% of it (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#22595924) |
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Date: February 8th, 2013 2:28 PM Author: bistre curious locale probably. i'd love to see a good empirical study of whether the quality of advocacy makes any difference in the outcome of a litigation (besides jury trials). seems like most fed court judges want to get to the right result, and i'm not convinced it really matters how well written your brief is. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#22595953) |
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Date: February 8th, 2013 2:31 PM Author: mauve personal credit line i dunno man there are some really really really shitty lawyers out there. sure there are great boutiques but there's also a lot of trash. biglaw is just a good signaling device so you dont have to spend a ton of time picking through the muck, much like law firms use top law schools to pre-select students and so on down the chain (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#22595968) |
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Date: February 8th, 2013 2:35 PM Author: bistre curious locale biglaw is a good signaling device to the clerk that your brief is well researched and the law is correct. however, the clerks/judges do want to get to the truth and they have an obligation to figure out the truth even if some ESL shitlawyer wrote an incompetent brief. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#22595991) |
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Date: February 8th, 2013 2:38 PM Author: ebony public bath doctorate To be fair,
And you have a duty to obey the speed limit, which I assume you always follow. |
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Date: February 8th, 2013 2:49 PM Author: bistre curious locale biglaw firms routinely lose motions, dumbass. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#22596067) |
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Date: February 8th, 2013 2:53 PM Author: ebony public bath doctorate To be fair,
Gee I wonder if that's because you usually don't even think about hiring biglaw to handle your case unless it's an uphill battle to begin with?
The fact that Biglawyers are as successful as they are (i.e., don't lose on the vast majority of motions they are hired to handle) actually shows just how important good research and briefing is. The easier you make it for the court, the better your odds of coming out on top. I wonder if that could be because most judges, like most human beings, are inherently kind of lazy? Tough question. |
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Date: February 8th, 2013 2:58 PM Author: bistre curious locale f500 companies hire biglaw for both winner and loser cases, moron.
and federal clerks are gunners, dumbass.
clearly you've never practiced law. |
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Date: February 8th, 2013 3:00 PM Author: ebony public bath doctorate To be fair,
LJL yeah bro you got me, I was flaming quality of briefing totally doesn't matter because "federal clerks are gunners" and anyone who thinks differently has clearly never practiced law
*blank stare* |
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Date: February 8th, 2013 9:50 PM Author: Violet Supple Lodge Mr. Gurion is correct; the federal judiciary (and competent state judges, which tbf, might be a third of them, generously) are committed to figuring that shit out. Even if a pro se submits a shittastic mess, they will make some effort to figure out what's going on and be "right". Everyone cares about being reversed and decent judges care about being correct, always.
Signaling matters some, but a clerk or a judge who reads briefs, ever, recognizes a good one immediately.
The research and writing only needs to be somewhat good enough ... there's a minimum bar that needs to be met, it's definitely above most of what is submitted, but there isn't significant added value for "excellent" briefing.
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Date: February 8th, 2013 9:52 PM Author: bistre curious locale 100% cr, but it's mr. ben gurion. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#22598844) |
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Date: February 8th, 2013 10:20 PM Author: nubile kitty Cosign, Mr. (Vice) President. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#22599064) |
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Date: February 8th, 2013 10:59 PM Author: Violet Supple Lodge if only bradley whitford carried my water i would be president. and my penchant for fucking (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#22599377) |
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Date: October 31st, 2018 9:06 PM Author: Wonderful drab sweet tailpipe (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#37135317) |
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Date: January 8th, 2014 12:15 PM Author: maniacal dog poop corner I'm a shitlawyer and didn't have the slightest clue what biglawyers even do, so one day I looked up a bunch of cases handled by biglaw firms, pulled them up on pacer, and looked at some dispositive motions and such. They definitely were very well-written and thorough. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#24798039) |
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Date: February 8th, 2013 2:31 PM Author: sooty talking philosopher-king forum I think it makes a difference in a number of ways, but like you said, depending on the type of court. An attorney that sucks in state court, in my opinion, is not going to be a strong advocate, and he will lose more than a good advocate simply for the fact that the judge may "like" the one attorney more than the other for being more competent.
I think when you get to the federal courts, and especially the U.S. Supreme Court, the quality of a brief almost has no influence on the judge's decisions necessarily. |
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Date: February 8th, 2013 3:31 PM Author: Diverse Jade Church yep. cya in action (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#22596280) |
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Date: January 8th, 2014 12:56 PM Author: Shimmering Fighting Base Potus #1 depends on how you define biglaw. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#24798182) |
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Date: February 8th, 2013 2:58 PM Author: doobsian irradiated macaca property i don't know why anyone hires biglaw for lit.
for corporate, only biglaw really knows what they are doing. |
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Date: February 8th, 2013 7:59 PM Author: Greedy Zombie-like Mental Disorder I don't practice corp, but I've seen some pretty shitty merger agreements from Fortune 500 companies. In one of my cases, a judge actually scolded the attorney who showed up about listing assets to be transferred and then decried that the new "Toilet Corp." was a sham. Kind of affected the F500 guy's liability. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#22598077) |
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Date: January 8th, 2014 5:23 PM Author: Greedy Zombie-like Mental Disorder (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#24799687) |
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Date: February 10th, 2013 1:43 AM Author: Trip alpha For many large-scale, complex cases, only biglaw firms have the resources to get it done. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#22605966) |
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Date: October 31st, 2018 9:35 PM Author: arousing chest-beating locus (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#37135449) |
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Date: February 8th, 2013 2:46 PM Author: Spruce library rigpig Partner once threw a bill in front of me and said, "Where's your time for x day?" He had written down that we had a meeting. I was on vacation. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#22596058) |
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Date: February 8th, 2013 10:21 PM Author: nubile kitty Sucks you got fired. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#22599076) |
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Date: February 8th, 2013 2:57 PM Author: Razzle-dazzle office As a client I view billing as somewhat elastic - if the firm has a good idea that saves us a few million dollars, some padding is fine. If they disappoint us I don't want to be charged much. This of course is for something that directly hits my budget - m&a and capital markets stuff is the real money pit. Even there the law firms are a better value proposition than the banks. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#22596116) |
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Date: February 8th, 2013 2:59 PM Author: contagious theater stage therapy Better proposition than the banks? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#22596123) |
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Date: February 8th, 2013 3:05 PM Author: Razzle-dazzle office Yes. Bankers charge exorbitant fees for arranging mergers - any asshole could put together a deal model with some ridiculously optimistic p&l projections, but they have a monopoly on it. Biglaw is less expensive, and they at least perform a high-quality service most of the time. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#22596156) |
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Date: February 8th, 2013 3:06 PM Author: contagious theater stage therapy There are a lot of banks to choose from. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#22596161) |
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Date: February 8th, 2013 3:19 PM Author: Razzle-dazzle office Yes, but M&A deal teams are not sensitive to banker's fees - budgeting is lax on special projects, it's "market" and the fees aren't so high as to turn a good deal into a bad one. It's like the realtor on a property transaction - more of a scam than a 10% overcharge for title insurance, but not that big of a deal ultimately. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#22596222) |
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Date: February 8th, 2013 3:06 PM Author: Alcoholic giraffe selfie From what I understand from finance people, CR. Bankers are just skimming off the top of these deals and get bogged down by plaintiffs firms more often than they should given what they charge. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#22596164) |
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Date: February 8th, 2013 3:03 PM Author: contagious theater stage therapy Has your company tried out Axiom or something similar?
http://www.axiomlaw.com/index.php/overview |
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Date: February 8th, 2013 3:09 PM Author: Razzle-dazzle office No. We want the best legal advice possible, and I don't see Axiom competing on that front. Its branding is budget legal services, for better or for worse. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#22596186) |
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Date: February 8th, 2013 3:11 PM Author: contagious theater stage therapy It seems intriguing to me. But it's hard to decide when you don't need the best advice just good enough. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#22596197) |
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Date: February 8th, 2013 3:33 PM Author: Diverse Jade Church sure, but Lawyer Oversight has the exact opposite view for most legal services. padding is never justified. client is on his own regardless of outcome. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#22596294) |
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Date: February 8th, 2013 3:00 PM Author: doobsian irradiated macaca property i think the idea that a biglaw client is paying for the itemized services of a junior at that rate is just wrong--you are paying for a package and this is the way we decided to approximate the cost. you can tell me you want all first year time written off, fine, but then i have to charge you more for other people's time. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#22596128) |
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Date: February 8th, 2013 3:05 PM Author: bistre curious locale cr. a biglaw bill is just an approximation and it's well known what the industry standard is. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#22596155) |
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Date: February 8th, 2013 3:07 PM Author: contagious theater stage therapy bills can be wildly different for the same tasks done by different attorneys (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#22596175) |
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Date: February 8th, 2013 3:22 PM Author: bronze casino fat ankles Cr. There aren't well known standards other than "we will charge as much as we think we can" (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#22596237) |
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Date: February 8th, 2013 10:26 PM Author: nubile kitty Cr. There are well known standards and people will expect them. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#22599124) |
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Date: February 8th, 2013 8:03 PM Author: Naked market the billable hour is a stupid ass model. overbilling would be a non-issue if firms didn't insist on charging by the hour. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#22598103) |
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Date: February 8th, 2013 8:35 PM Author: Diverse Jade Church i believe the origin for this was not firms, but clients (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#22598357) |
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Date: February 8th, 2013 8:41 PM Author: Naked market that's correct, but for the last few decades its been firms who have desperately clinged to it while clients have pushed for flat rate (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#22598392) |
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Date: February 8th, 2013 9:17 PM Author: bistre curious locale flat rate doesn't make sense for litigation. even with tiered structures, it still doesn't make sense. it's impossible to predict what shit is going to come up and what twists and turns cases take. someone's going to get royally screwed over, and the billable model is a sufficient approximation of how much work it takes. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#22598630) |
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Date: February 8th, 2013 9:20 PM Author: Naked market sure, but litigation is a substantial yet minority portion of firm revenues (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#22598643) |
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Date: February 8th, 2013 9:29 PM Author: bistre curious locale at most biglaw, it's the largest or 2nd largest practice area.
anything transactional corporate would be easier to flat fee. bankruptcy -- another big biglaw practice area these days -- would be hard to flat fee for the same reasons as litigation. what other major independent practice areas am i missing? |
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Date: February 8th, 2013 9:30 PM Author: Naked market regulatory, but most of those areas have the same issues as litigation. you're telling me the V10 get the majority of revenues from litigation? bullshit (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#22598700) |
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Date: February 8th, 2013 9:32 PM Author: bistre curious locale no, when did i say that? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#22598709) |
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Date: February 8th, 2013 9:33 PM Author: Naked market "at most biglaw, it's the largest or 2nd largest practice area."
it's not the largest in the V50 i'd bet |
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Date: February 8th, 2013 9:34 PM Author: bistre curious locale read my statement on its face, and don't try to take it for more than what's stated. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#22598723) |
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Date: February 8th, 2013 9:35 PM Author: Naked market ok fair, i'm just saying, flat fee would work for 50% or more of most biglaw practice (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#22598728) |
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Date: February 8th, 2013 9:41 PM Author: bistre curious locale isn't it the litigation in-house people who complain about the hourly model, anyway? i don't hear corporate in-house people complaining that the firm has a 1st year sitting at the printers. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#22598772) |
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Date: February 8th, 2013 9:45 PM Author: Naked market corporate in-house counsel push back on shit all the time, and clients routinely refuse to allow 1st or even 2nd years to work on matters at all (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#22598798) |
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Date: February 8th, 2013 10:49 PM Author: orange stead corn cake Correct. Corporate transaction bills are frequently not even itemized. All the corporate practice's client cares about is the bottom line number. They could not care less about how it was reached. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#22599312) |
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Date: February 8th, 2013 10:52 PM Author: Naked market which is why it's asinine for corporate associates to maintain the fiction of billing hours (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#22599335) |
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Date: February 9th, 2013 2:11 PM Author: orange stead corn cake As someone is in an extremely efficient biller, I completely agree. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#22601503) |
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Date: February 10th, 2013 1:46 AM Author: Trip alpha You sure about that? Second-highest PPP firm is 100% lit, no? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#22605979) |
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Date: October 31st, 2018 9:04 PM Author: grizzly dopamine faggot firefighter (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#37135311) |
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Date: November 1st, 2018 11:35 AM Author: cracking juggernaut who gives a fuck about shitigation? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#37138368) |
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Date: February 9th, 2013 12:22 AM Author: Titillating unhinged turdskin Flat fee approach in corporate creates incentives to close the deal at all costs which may not be in the clients best interest. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#22599750) |
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Date: February 9th, 2013 2:11 PM Author: orange stead corn cake Bill to close fee arrangements also incentivize closing over letting a deal bust but they're the market standard. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#22601502) |
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Date: November 1st, 2018 11:37 AM Author: cracking juggernaut there are still malpractice concerns that act as a bit of a backstop on that. I've never seen a business-side person that wasn't trying to close a deal at all costs. |
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Date: January 8th, 2014 12:28 PM Author: Spectacular learning disabled stag film LOL they would find some way to bill the same amount or more retard. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#24798088) |
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Date: February 8th, 2013 8:04 PM Author: Aphrodisiac parlor you know what happens every time you put a postage stamp on those bills? it becomes a federal crime. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#22598118) |
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Date: February 8th, 2013 8:32 PM Author: ruby ceo meetinghouse (Carmen Ortiz prosecuting second-year associates for adding .2 to all time entries) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#22598338) |
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Date: February 8th, 2013 8:40 PM Author: Misunderstood Mind-boggling Liquid Oxygen Wrinkle what movie was that from i forgot (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#22598385) |
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Date: February 8th, 2013 9:26 PM Author: Diverse Jade Church the firm (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#22598665) |
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Date: February 8th, 2013 9:37 PM Author: mint faggotry menage lol (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#22598742) |
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Date: February 8th, 2013 9:46 PM Author: vermilion legend FedEx bro. The US mail is for suckers. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#22598799) |
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Date: February 8th, 2013 10:28 PM Author: nubile kitty Lol, somehow there's case law stating that FedEx = U.S. Mail.
I forget the reasoning, but urfucked. |
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Date: February 8th, 2013 10:45 PM Author: Aphrodisiac parlor (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#22599283) |
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Date: February 9th, 2013 12:01 AM Author: marvelous point electric furnace (shitlaw steve advising client) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#22599676) |
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Date: February 9th, 2013 3:52 AM Author: Adventurous party of the first part What if I email them? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#22600521) |
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Date: November 1st, 2018 11:37 AM Author: cracking juggernaut wire fraud (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#37138383) |
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Date: February 10th, 2013 1:51 AM Author: Poppy telephone spot The person who stamps the mail is a few levels away. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#22605988) |
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Date: January 8th, 2014 5:55 PM Author: black azn temple Yeah, the poor faggot that has to do the mail is the designated felon and he doesn't even know it. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#24799860) |
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Date: February 8th, 2013 8:19 PM Author: brindle comical dilemma internal respiration Responding to the discussion above re the value of good brief writing: yes, even federal courts fuck up decisions. They don't always get it right, especially if the submitted briefs are poor. A not so insignificant number of lower court decisions are overturned by appellate courts. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#22598221) |
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Date: February 8th, 2013 9:19 PM Author: bistre curious locale someone should produce some empirical SCHOLARSHIP on whether there's any correlation between the ttt-ness of the losing firm and appellate reversal rates. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#22598639) |
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Date: February 8th, 2013 9:38 PM Author: Diverse Jade Church it's going to be very difficult, if not impossible, to determine which firms should be considered ttt (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#22598748) |
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Date: February 8th, 2013 9:42 PM Author: bistre curious locale i think leittter can handle such difficult scholarship. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#22598779) |
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Date: February 8th, 2013 9:51 PM Author: Diverse Jade Church of course. he can break ties by the number of attorneys in the firm! (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#22598840) |
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Date: February 8th, 2013 9:58 PM Author: citrine flickering set the fact is most lit happens in state courts and most state court judges are either TTT and/or so swamped they dont even read the fucking briefs that much.. maybe some TTT clerk does.. its BS.. the idea that XYZ biglaw firm is better than some small firm faggot somewhere is actually absurd.. its all jsut elitist faggot BS (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#22598884) |
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Date: February 8th, 2013 10:02 PM Author: Naked market that's not true. you're mostly right when it comes to the briefs themselves, but a biglaw firm will destroy a TTT firm on procedure and case strategy. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#22598915) |
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Date: February 8th, 2013 10:10 PM Author: bistre curious locale tbf, a savvy shitlawyer who can't write a good brief to safe his life likely has the ability to do well with procedure crap. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#22598978) |
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Date: February 8th, 2013 10:26 PM Author: Naked market that's true, and i almost made a comment about that in my post, but the majority of them don't fit the bill (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#22599127) |
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Date: February 8th, 2013 10:38 PM Author: citrine flickering set the fact is most SHITLAWYERS end up winning against BIGLAW.. maybe it varies amoung practice areas but it is not fucking Supreme Court litigation.. most SHITLAW lawyers winn in the end even if its a shit settlement but the amount of cases that result in full MSJ victory or trial victory for BIGLAW is fucking slim, most cases setttle ansd that is a win for SHITLAW..
but most faggots in BIGLAW dont think lik ethis.. cause they are so brainwashed.. its stupid.. fuck KIKES |
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Date: February 8th, 2013 10:42 PM Author: sooty talking philosopher-king forum Not seeing what is so difficult about procedure that a TTT lawyer couldn't handle anyway though. Honestly, give an example. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#22599260) |
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Date: February 8th, 2013 10:45 PM Author: bistre curious locale yeah, shitty biglaw firms are the most likely to fuck up a case procedure-wise. their teams are overstaffed and issues get missed and nobody is thinking about the big picture. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#22599280) |
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Date: February 8th, 2013 10:50 PM Author: citrine flickering set LOL kike, as if BIGLAW caers abt the BIG PICTURE really.. their BIG PICTURE is kike maximizing hours.. its shit (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#22599316) |
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Date: February 8th, 2013 10:51 PM Author: bistre curious locale that's why shitty biglaw firms get burned when cases don't settle and actually end up at trial. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#22599325) |
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Date: February 8th, 2013 10:54 PM Author: sooty talking philosopher-king forum It seems like shit gets fucked up from a procedural standpoint when shit falls through the cracks.
Probably does not happen as much in BigLaw because of the amount of attorneys working on a specific case/issue and the fact that they actually have supportive support staff rather than retards. That could happen in shitlaw though a lot when you have one lawyer handling 500 things at once with no support. |
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Date: February 8th, 2013 11:01 PM Author: bistre curious locale true that biglaw doesn't actually blow deadlines, but shitty firms will make big strategic mistakes and miss the big picture because there's no good general on the case and you have a bunch of peons doing their own thing (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#22599393) |
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Date: February 8th, 2013 11:03 PM Author: sooty talking philosopher-king forum Right, agreed. What I mean is, I think that's for a combination of reasons. One, support staff. Two, you don't have a star on the matter. Three, many minds on single issues/cases, etc.
We can split heirs. |
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Date: February 8th, 2013 10:50 PM Author: sooty talking philosopher-king forum Doesn't seem like a lot of shitlawyers even fuck up cases procedure wise though. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#22599318) |
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Date: February 8th, 2013 11:22 PM Author: Violet Supple Lodge they don't ... it comes down to facts or the randomness of juries.
also, don't confuse what this board describes as "shitlawyer" with every lawyer who doesn't work at a big firm. It depends on the case. on many, the resources of a big firm (including attorney talent) will overwhelm a smaller or medium sized firm. Doesn't mean an average firm with a billing rate the fraction of their opponents doesn't "win" on the many other cases that don't really require a firm of that size ... you are not usually up against functional retards. |
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Date: February 8th, 2013 11:24 PM Author: sooty talking philosopher-king forum Absolutely, facts are everything. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#22599540) |
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Date: February 9th, 2013 12:11 AM Author: marvelous point electric furnace Tmfcr. Also biglaw mid level and junior associates, who often know the cases way better than senior associates and partners, are too afraid to speak up in a fluid way whereas shitlaw it's all open door water cooler shit so everyone is bouncing ideas off each other. I've worked in both environments and I'm way more productive in the shitlaw environment. Where biglaw shines is knowledge of the law. Shitlaw bros will just theorize about what the law must be whereas biglaw dudes will look it up and hammer it down. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#22599704) |
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Date: February 10th, 2013 3:03 PM Author: Obsidian laughsome area just LOL. "Shitlaw bros will just theorize about what the law must" is exactly what I do on a daily basis. small clients just don't want to pay for the research time necessary, so you gotta do what you gotta do. |
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Date: February 8th, 2013 11:03 PM Author: bright glittery milk most of that shit gets "written down" any way. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#22599411) |
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Date: February 9th, 2013 2:13 PM Author: orange stead corn cake Very little is written off. US practices at good firms have collections percentages in the mid-90's. Europe and Asia are very different and are unfortunately can be a drag on the finances of firms. |
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Date: February 9th, 2013 3:59 PM Author: contagious theater stage therapy Surprised to hear a lot of write offs in non-UK Europe. Which one has higher percentage of write-off, Europe or Asia? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#22602183) |
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Date: January 8th, 2014 1:57 PM Author: marvelous point electric furnace How do they define collections though? Does it include hours that gets written off BEFORE they're billed? Because if not then the number is meaningless. Most partners know about what the client's checkbook will bear before it asks for a write off and will write off those hours prior to billing it. Or they will put pressure on associates not to pad bills of certain matters, but to pad bills on other matters. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#24798504) |
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Date: January 8th, 2014 11:05 AM Author: contagious theater stage therapy This thread makes me think some org like the Business Roundtable should take out billboard ads in Lower Manhattan reminding all the lawyers that billing fraud is a criminal act. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#24797725) |
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Date: August 4th, 2017 12:30 AM Author: coral dead trailer park old irish cottage (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#33914900) |
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Date: July 30th, 2018 3:01 PM Author: Cowardly university mad-dog skullcap (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#36523266) |
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Date: October 31st, 2018 9:29 PM Author: Provocative Bonkers School Cafeteria I LIKE THE KIKE LIFE, BABY (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#37135420) |
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Date: November 1st, 2018 11:18 AM Author: brindle comical dilemma internal respiration A nice thread from a different era of xo (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#37138264) |
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Date: November 1st, 2018 11:24 AM Author: Odious Iridescent Heaven Pozpig Lol (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#37138290) |
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Date: February 16th, 2020 3:22 PM Author: contagious theater stage therapy (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#39603381) |
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Date: July 15th, 2020 7:14 PM Author: nubile kitty (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#40614257) |
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Date: November 1st, 2018 11:31 AM Author: Charismatic walnut boistinker pretty much every white collar "professional" overbills hours. nobody is actually doing real work for the entire time that they bill (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#37138333) |
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Date: November 1st, 2018 11:37 AM Author: Emerald dashing kitchen It's not as bad as some people claim. A lot of people chronically underbill b/c they do all their hours at once and forgot about all the time spent reading emails and talking to clients on the phone, spontaneous discussions about the matter with partners, etc.
There are days where I go in at 8am, leave at 3am, ate at my desk and somehow could only account for 10 hours of my time for that day a week later. Lol. |
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Date: November 1st, 2018 11:39 AM Author: cracking juggernaut Post removed by moderator for violating The Law of The Land. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#37138396) |
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Date: November 1st, 2018 11:40 AM Author: Emerald dashing kitchen Do tell. 20% on top of everything?
I do have a reputation as a highly efficient lawyer lol. And I'm still always over 2,000 each year. |
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Date: November 1st, 2018 11:42 AM Author: cracking juggernaut total time spent in the office times the rough percentage you spent on each matter.
If you're not capturing all of your time spent working then you are a huge sucker. |
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Date: November 1st, 2018 11:48 AM Author: Emerald dashing kitchen Not a bad plan. Some days I have hours of "dead" time where I'm just doing nothing and BSing with colleagues. Seems hard to bill 3 hours on "draft email to client re stupid question." (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#37138444) |
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Date: November 1st, 2018 11:58 AM Author: Beady-eyed Multi-billionaire kirkland SHATTERS (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#37138494) |
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Date: July 22nd, 2019 9:30 PM Author: big mahogany theatre (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#38572841) |
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Date: July 15th, 2020 6:33 PM Author: Fluffy Ratface (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#40614116) |
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Date: September 26th, 2025 10:15 PM Author: i gave my cousin head (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2179152&forum_id=2Elisa#49306648) |