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Law School or Stay in Software
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Date: October 4th, 2014 10:29 PM Author: orange half-breed I am fairly mediocre. I scored a 171 on the LSAT and have a 3.6 from a public school. I think that my numbers should get me into an MVP, maybe? I currently, however, work in software in the valley. I make around 130k as a SWE1(just starting my second year) at a major company, e.g., Google, Facebook, Twitter . . etc. The perks are great. I get free food and the ability to work on whatever I want one day out of the week, but the work week near a major release is more like 6 days a week. If the stock performs well, I can see bonuses that range widely from 10k - 100k. I am, however, worried about the bubbly nature of the tech industry and job security as I get older. I am also worried that I may be limited in my upside potential 10-20 years down the road when it seems like senior lawyers can start making it rain. What is the credited career decision? Go or not go? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2692113&forum_id=2Elisa#26457964) |
Date: October 4th, 2014 10:36 PM Author: Twinkling background story go to law school. three best years of your life, and if youre smart, youll be set. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2692113&forum_id=2Elisa#26458002) |
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Date: October 4th, 2014 10:44 PM Author: orange half-breed unsure how smart i am. and i'm unsure what law school skillz consist of. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2692113&forum_id=2Elisa#26458049) |
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Date: October 4th, 2014 10:49 PM Author: Spectacular partner Biggest skill you would be use for patent law is writing. Lots and lots of writing. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2692113&forum_id=2Elisa#26458068) |
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Date: October 4th, 2014 10:52 PM Author: orange half-breed How advanced does my degree need to be on the technical side? Undegrad: Bio/CS (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2692113&forum_id=2Elisa#26458084) |
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Date: October 4th, 2014 10:53 PM Author: Spectacular partner For CS, a bachelors is sufficient. For bio work, you would usually need a phd. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2692113&forum_id=2Elisa#26458095) |
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Date: October 4th, 2014 10:56 PM Author: orange half-breed What can I expect earnings wise in IP? And job security wise compared to something like litigation or M&A work? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2692113&forum_id=2Elisa#26458110) |
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Date: October 4th, 2014 10:59 PM Author: Spectacular partner Big Firm would start at 160K regardless. But IP has better job security and more good paying jobs if you can't get Biglaw or get pushed out after a few years. It's hard to see this would be a +EV move for you given your current income. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2692113&forum_id=2Elisa#26458124) |
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Date: October 4th, 2014 10:38 PM Author: Irradiated Hot Shrine Dog Poop See this is the sort of information I'm interested in. Software man(?) have you always been interested in the Law? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2692113&forum_id=2Elisa#26458011) |
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Date: October 4th, 2014 10:41 PM Author: orange half-breed yea, i understand it's lame to say this shit, but I find patents and IP fairly interesting. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2692113&forum_id=2Elisa#26458030) |
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Date: October 4th, 2014 10:42 PM Author: Irradiated Hot Shrine Dog Poop You should go for it! Although maybe it would make more sense to see if there is a joint project with your company's legal department to get a taste (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2692113&forum_id=2Elisa#26458035) |
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Date: October 4th, 2014 10:47 PM Author: orange half-breed I am fairly surprised that I've gotten two positive responses from these boards. I thought the XO credited response usually defaulted to "FUCK NO FUCK LAW SKOOLZ!" (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2692113&forum_id=2Elisa#26458058) |
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Date: October 4th, 2014 10:48 PM Author: Irradiated Hot Shrine Dog Poop I'm not a lawyer so you should make sure you talk to people in your profession, but it's always important to trust the instinct to do what you want to do (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2692113&forum_id=2Elisa#26458063) |
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Date: October 4th, 2014 11:50 PM Author: avocado den Yeah honestly I think that first response -- "you'll be set" -- was flaming you. IP will def put you in a better position than other practice areas but as a long-suffering biglawyer (non-ip) my reaction is pretty much LOLZ FUCK NO. But I don't know enough about programming or what your realistic prospects are in tech to weigh the two. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2692113&forum_id=2Elisa#26458436) |
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Date: October 5th, 2014 12:11 AM Author: orange half-breed appreciate the candid response . . . I was starting to think that XO might have changed over the last two - three years. No more sarcasm and racism . . like, actual helpful advice.
The go to law sk00lz . . . you'll do amazing sounded kind of naive, actually. |
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Date: October 4th, 2014 10:47 PM Author: Spectacular partner Do you like programming? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2692113&forum_id=2Elisa#26458059) |
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Date: October 4th, 2014 10:49 PM Author: orange half-breed I mean, I will never be the best programmer. I've realized that. I do enjoy it. I just suck, comparatively. If I stay, I want to try and switch into a PM role down the road. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2692113&forum_id=2Elisa#26458066) |
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Date: October 4th, 2014 10:50 PM Author: Spectacular partner If you enjoy it and are making 130K, I would keep doing what you're doing. I did programming for a few years before law school. Don't miss it at all but I never really liked it. Also made 80K, not 130K. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2692113&forum_id=2Elisa#26458075) |
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Date: October 4th, 2014 10:53 PM Author: orange half-breed TBF, 130k in the valley is not that much money. Are you going the IP route? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2692113&forum_id=2Elisa#26458096) |
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Date: October 4th, 2014 10:55 PM Author: Spectacular partner I do IP law, yes. And that's true, I was living in a much lower CoL city. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2692113&forum_id=2Elisa#26458105) |
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Date: October 4th, 2014 10:57 PM Author: orange half-breed Oh shit, did not realize you're the same poAster. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2692113&forum_id=2Elisa#26458114) |
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Date: October 4th, 2014 11:02 PM Author: Spectacular partner Sometimes it's more enjoyable. At least it's a lot more variety. I was working on the same code base for two years, and would've been doing the same for many more years if I stayed.
Job security is way worse. Supply and demand wise, programming is just so much more favorable than law, even patent law.
Earnings potential may be better if I can keep a good job my whole career. Doubt I ever would've made 200K programming like I make now. |
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Date: October 4th, 2014 11:08 PM Author: orange half-breed This is the kind of response I was looking for, thanks man. Yea, even at a top tech company in the valley it is difficult to break 200k after many, many years. At startups so much of your compensation is tied up in RSUs and even higher up SVPs are taking home only 200 -300k guaranteed + RSUs (but these can be valued in the million dollar range). You need to develop something internally or be acquired to really move up in terms of RSUs. Are you living in a major market with 200k? And does the kind of law school I go to matter? I might be able to minimize debt by going to a lower tier school. I've also heard anecdotally that the hours are better in IP, is this true? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2692113&forum_id=2Elisa#26458170) |
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Date: October 4th, 2014 11:14 PM Author: Spectacular partner Major market but lower CoL than SV. For Biglaw, name of your law school matters. For other IP jobs like boutiques, they will emphasize your tech background more, but the law school name still matters. I would recommend minimizing debt regardless. You don't want to be paying sticker for MVP. It's just too much money. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2692113&forum_id=2Elisa#26458220) |
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Date: October 4th, 2014 11:20 PM Author: orange half-breed Is compensation and lifestyle comparable between boutiques and Biglaw? My understanding is that IP Biglaw is a different beast than V10 Biglaw. Yea, I'm probably looking at sticker with my stats at an MVP. Is the WUSTL range of schools too low for IP? And by tech stats are you talking about companies worked for or prestige of my degree? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2692113&forum_id=2Elisa#26458269) |
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Date: October 4th, 2014 11:24 PM Author: Spectacular partner Boutiques have somewhat better lifestyle and somewhat lower comp. IP Biglaw isn't easy, although obviously V10 is mostly for masochists. WUSTL sucks, but places ok in chicago for IP with a CS degree. Prestige of ug degree(s) and companies worked for both matter. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2692113&forum_id=2Elisa#26458289) |
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Date: October 4th, 2014 11:30 PM Author: orange half-breed So it seems like you're saying I might not have a +EV, but if I think I would enjoy patent work, it could be worth it? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2692113&forum_id=2Elisa#26458328) |
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Date: October 4th, 2014 11:36 PM Author: Spectacular partner I think it's a bad idea. If you hated programming, it might be different. But as it is, you are looking at paying a bunch of money to move from a field with great job security where you like your job to one with dubious prospects where many people get fucked and which you may not even like. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2692113&forum_id=2Elisa#26458360) |
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Date: October 4th, 2014 11:39 PM Author: orange half-breed seriously, thanks for the honest feedback. I'm really going to think about this. you've definitely done me a great service. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2692113&forum_id=2Elisa#26458371) |
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Date: October 4th, 2014 11:09 PM Author: razzle-dazzle azure headpube I did programmer to LS and went back to programmer. If you want to stay in technology but don't want to write code try to get into a lead developer position that you can leverage into a people management role. Project managers / scrum masters / etc have really bad jobs in my experience and are not frequently promoted to actual management whereas dev leads are. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2692113&forum_id=2Elisa#26458176) |
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Date: October 4th, 2014 11:11 PM Author: orange half-breed This is actually very, very credited. Why did you go back to being a programmer? Your experiences might be illuminating. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2692113&forum_id=2Elisa#26458200) |
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Date: October 4th, 2014 11:26 PM Author: razzle-dazzle azure headpube I wasn't in a very good mental state for LS at the time and had a very easy out to go back to my old job. It was easy to rationalize the opportunity cost plus tuition "not being worth it" then. Looking back 9 years later, I don't know. Anyway, you have a good LSAT and are obviously already successful. So I think you'll be fine either way. One other thing... If you are accustomed to making 6 figures and go back to being a student, it's going to suck. I say that as someone who has always lived well below my means and saved aggressively. The state of spending rather than saving really, really bothered me. |
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Date: October 4th, 2014 11:32 PM Author: orange half-breed Curious, why do you not know? Have you seen former peers doing better?
Yea, I haven't really thought about it from the perspective of student life sucking. I've been trying to save aggressively in the valley, but it's been difficult. |
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Date: October 5th, 2014 12:42 PM Author: razzle-dazzle azure headpube Other than a vague awareness of how XO lawyers who started LS about the same time I did, I don't have a great deal of insight into what my life would have been like if I stayed in law. I only know a couple lawyers IRL and they are older. My perception is that I'd maybe make 50-100K more per yer but that my hours would be far worse. And I have no debt. As it turns out I got into a team lead role in software a few years back, and then recently moved into an actual management position in a large company. So if I can do this successfully, there's still a lot of room to progress. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2692113&forum_id=2Elisa#26460083) |
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Date: October 5th, 2014 12:52 AM Author: Charismatic milk native Did you finish law school and pass the bar exam? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2692113&forum_id=2Elisa#26458781) |
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Date: October 5th, 2014 12:34 PM Author: razzle-dazzle azure headpube No, I didn't finish LS. Dropped out very early. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2692113&forum_id=2Elisa#26460060) |
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Date: October 4th, 2014 11:47 PM Author: lake kitchen doctorate I've worked in tech (designer not programmer but I worked with plenty of programmers so I know what the deal is), and I'm currently in LS. Here's what I see the main concerns being.
1. The skill set. There are both similarities and differences between being a lawyer and a programmer. They're similar in that they're both "tedious" and detail-oriented. They're different in that one is mostly quantitative the other is mostly about writing. And there are areas of law that require a bit of salesmanship or if you prefer, showmanship (litigation related). Which type of "tedium" do you find more tolerable, research or programming? A lot of law is kind of like writing those research papers you did for college arts courses, only the research is more hair-splittingly detail oriented. Would you find that type of tedium preferable to the kind of tedium programmers have to deal with? Few would. There are people who program for fun, nobody does legal research for fun.
2. Career stability. Programming requires a lot of retraining and re-education, new standards are being introduced all the time. It's very easy to just be replaced too. Not so much with law, it's less "off-shorable."
3. Politics/personality. You generally deal with decent people in tech, in law you're mostly dealing with neurotic shitheads.
4. Salary. What do you make? In general, lawyers make a bit more than programmers, but there's a huge amount of variation here. A silicon valley programmer is making more than a public defender in some shit city, but the average income for lawyers is higher overall.
So as you can see there are pros and cons to both. I guess in general it comes down to, how much can you tolerate the ethical dilemmas involved in an advocacy-based profession, vs. how much can you deal with the asocial aspect of being a programmer? And lawyers have a slight edge in earnings but not that much. |
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Date: October 4th, 2014 11:59 PM Author: orange half-breed did you do UI/UX work? Yea, it seems that at a comparable seniority level, the compensation for a Biglaw lawyer tends to be higher. I do love the people I work with, though. They are all very intelligent and motivated. We work on interesting problems at work, and I get unlimited food of pretty much any kind. I will say, though, that the rosiness that is painted about top tech firms like Google are a bit too positive. You can easily become apathetic, deadlines suck, and the food isn't that great when you've been in the office for 72 hours because you have a product release deadline.
The thing is . . . These top tech companies are relatively young. They haven't been around that long. I constantly see younger and younger developers at work. And you're absolutely right about the re-education aspect. Every few years a new framework gets developed like Rails or Django. New languages happen all the time. . . .
Why did you leave? |
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Date: October 4th, 2014 11:59 PM Author: Laughsome onyx theater stage rigpig cr (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2692113&forum_id=2Elisa#26458472) |
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Date: October 5th, 2014 12:28 PM Author: Pale Cuckold "There are people who program for fun, nobody does legal research for fun."
I've done legal research for fun but not every often. |
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Date: October 5th, 2014 12:22 PM Author: Harsh rigor public bath If you enjoy technology (not necessarily programming), Def recommend CS + MBA. this is a really good combination and will set you up for Management, program management, or startup (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2692113&forum_id=2Elisa#26460021) |
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Date: October 5th, 2014 12:27 PM Author: Laughsome onyx theater stage rigpig Can't believe it took this long for someone to say this (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2692113&forum_id=2Elisa#26460041) |
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Date: October 5th, 2014 12:27 PM Author: khaki maniacal mental disorder i'd see which schools you get into and how much money you get.
also, can you get any kind of side gig doing programming during law school? |
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Date: October 5th, 2014 12:46 PM Author: dead piazza alpha don't underestimate how much it will suck being in debt and working your ass off, while your peers will be transitioning to chill middle management jobs and buying houses. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2692113&forum_id=2Elisa#26460104) |
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Date: October 5th, 2014 12:52 PM Author: Pale Cuckold 3 years of law school + 3 to 5 years of associate grunt work before you move in-house or become a non-grunt at a firm (and that's optimistic on the firm side). (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2692113&forum_id=2Elisa#26460126) |
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Date: October 5th, 2014 12:54 PM Author: passionate market SOFTWARE. LAw is a trap. You will lose 3 years of income and PAY for the privilege.
Unlikely that you will increase your overall income. |
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Date: September 26th, 2025 9:50 PM Author: i gave my cousin head update?? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=2692113&forum_id=2Elisa#49306588) |