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Randy Johnson vs. Greg Maddux
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Date: June 7th, 2022 12:50 PM Author: sienna church You look at the career value statistics of these two contemporaries and they're remarkably similar despite having two very different approaches on the mound. Who was the better pitcher in your mind? I go with the Unit, but it's close. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5125679&forum_id=2Elisa#44642001) |
Date: June 7th, 2022 12:53 PM Author: Cyan pisswyrm I came in here to say Maddux, but after looking at the numbers I think it's Johnson. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5125679&forum_id=2Elisa#44642012) |
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Date: June 7th, 2022 12:53 PM Author: Soul-stirring Parlour Tattoo Maddux (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5125679&forum_id=2Elisa#44642018) |
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Date: June 7th, 2022 12:54 PM Author: heady den roommate Nothing about Maddux is as iconic as Johnson obliterating a birddood (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5125679&forum_id=2Elisa#44642022) |
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Date: June 7th, 2022 12:59 PM Author: Painfully honest mad-dog skullcap Totally from memory, but Johnson seemed like more of a big game pitcher. Maddux always seemed to underperform in the playoffs. Also, if you polled 100 random players who faced both of them, I would guess at least 70% would say they would rather face Maddux than Johnson. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5125679&forum_id=2Elisa#44642040) |
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Date: June 7th, 2022 1:05 PM Author: sienna church Probably true, but Maddux was still a beast.
JAWS (average of total WAR and peak 7-year WAR) has the two effectively tied at #9 best pitcher of all time. Only two postwar pitchers above them are Rocket and (barely) Seaver.
fWAR ranks them even higher at #4 and #5. |
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Date: June 7th, 2022 1:01 PM Author: Charismatic nibblets Johnson at his best > Maddux at his best Maddux on a normal day > Johnson on a normal day
For one game you'd want Johnson and that makes him the better in my mind imo |
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Date: June 7th, 2022 1:26 PM Author: tripping public bath (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5125679&forum_id=2Elisa#44642243) |
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Date: June 7th, 2022 1:58 PM Author: Glittery preventive strike generalized bond This is solid analysis. I agree. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5125679&forum_id=2Elisa#44642455) |
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Date: June 7th, 2022 11:06 PM Author: Abusive Carnelian Brunch (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5125679&forum_id=2Elisa#44645562) |
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Date: June 7th, 2022 1:05 PM Author: curious bawdyhouse It's Maddux and it's not even fucking close, although Johnson looked more opposing and did kill that bird (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5125679&forum_id=2Elisa#44642094) |
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Date: June 7th, 2022 1:06 PM Author: sienna church It is definitely close (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5125679&forum_id=2Elisa#44642102) |
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Date: June 7th, 2022 1:19 PM Author: curious bawdyhouse Not from a team/owner perspective. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5125679&forum_id=2Elisa#44642189) |
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Date: June 7th, 2022 1:21 PM Author: sienna church what is a "team/owner perspective" and how is it different from any other perspective (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5125679&forum_id=2Elisa#44642212) |
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Date: June 7th, 2022 1:23 PM Author: curious bawdyhouse For a fan: the accumulation of stats v. accumulation of memories
For an owner: the production of value
Between the Mariners and Braves fan bases, who loves Johnson or Maddux more? Braves love their guy more. |
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Date: June 7th, 2022 1:25 PM Author: Charismatic nibblets Johnson's peak was with Arizona (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5125679&forum_id=2Elisa#44642233) |
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Date: June 7th, 2022 1:28 PM Author: curious bawdyhouse Immediately won a world series and then was meh for five years (compared to peak RJ). (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5125679&forum_id=2Elisa#44642254) |
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Date: June 7th, 2022 1:44 PM Author: sienna church Here's where you expose yourself as a fraud. Five of his best six years were with Arizona. His peak from 1999-2004 (all D-backs years) are heights that few have ever reached. Five seasons of 8+ WAR including two with 10+ WAR. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5125679&forum_id=2Elisa#44642359) |
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Date: June 7th, 2022 1:57 PM Author: curious bawdyhouse As explained below, he fucking crushed it during peak steroid ball, which was immediately followed by injury in 2004 and never reaching those heights again. He was age 35-40. Unless you're a Diamondbacks fan, that's not where anyone remembers Randy Johnson because that's when he was just a mercenary like Gerrit Cole today.
Maddux posted his peak WAR years from 92-98, throwing more innings while age 26-32 and also got 9+ WAR twice. But then he was a reliable 4 ERA pitcher for another decade, throwing 200+ most years and only fewer than 100 innings in his final three years. |
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Date: June 7th, 2022 2:03 PM Author: sienna church Crushing it during peak steroid ball is a good thing. It's one reason Pedro's 1999 season was so incredible. And it's not like RJ had zero longevity either:
"He led the league in strikeouts in every full season he pitched but one from 1992 to 2004. The one full season he pitched when he did not lead the league in strikeouts? That was 1997. He struck out 291. Roger Clemens struck out 292.
From 1999 to 2002, four seasons, he left the known universe. He went 81-27 with a 2.48 ERA, a 187 ERA+, and he averaged — averaged — 354 strikeouts per season. He won all four Cy Youngs, carried the Arizona Diamondbacks to a World Series title and was named Sports Illustrated’s co-Sportsperson of the Year along with his teammate Curt Schilling.
He did all this from ages 35-38. It’s the greatest four-year run for any late-30s pitcher ever." |
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Date: June 7th, 2022 2:03 PM Author: curious bawdyhouse We'll see how JV finishes this year (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5125679&forum_id=2Elisa#44642494) |
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Date: June 7th, 2022 2:08 PM Author: curious bawdyhouse As other poaster mentioned below, the strike really hit Maddux during his prime. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5125679&forum_id=2Elisa#44642524) |
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Date: June 7th, 2022 11:19 PM Author: Abusive Carnelian Brunch (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5125679&forum_id=2Elisa#44645609) |
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Date: June 7th, 2022 1:08 PM Author: Cyan pisswyrm Give your reasons.
I instinctively thought the same, but Johnson's numbers are really, really good. Better winning pct, better ERA+, way more strikeouts, slightly less WAR but slightly more WAA, one more CYA.
I think you can go either way, but I was surprised at how good Johnson's numbers were in retrospect. |
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Date: June 7th, 2022 1:11 PM Author: sienna church win% and CYAs are flame but I agree. Johnson had a slightly better peak (and took a weird career arc to get there), Maddux slightly more longevity, but both were out of this world good. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5125679&forum_id=2Elisa#44642135) |
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Date: June 7th, 2022 1:15 PM Author: curious bawdyhouse Better WAR, more wins, longer and more durable career with way better stories about why he was a great.
Also, Maddux did 7 with Chicago then 11 with the Braves before becoming a journey man, while Randy Johnson really only had 8 with Seattle and then was a hired gun who was hit or miss some seasons. I say this as an Astros fan who saw Randy Johnson in his best season of all time, but it was only that one year. |
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Date: June 7th, 2022 1:28 PM Author: tripping public bath I met him IRL once. He was super nice but very aspie and on top of being freakishly tall I do think this undermined his star power as a player. At his peak he was so awesome to watch. Like Nolan Ryan but with way better control. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5125679&forum_id=2Elisa#44642252) |
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Date: June 7th, 2022 1:08 PM Author: Abnormal diverse location if I'm a left handed batter, Johnson is the toughest pitcher maybe EVER (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5125679&forum_id=2Elisa#44642116) |
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Date: June 7th, 2022 1:10 PM Author: Henna medicated theater stage They have pretty different careers.
Maddux was dominant early on and then sort of hung around for a bunch of years in his mid-late thirties.
Johnson never really figured it out in his 20s and became dominant in his mid thirties.
Maddux is remembered as a mediocre playoff pitcher, but his ERA is actually lower than Johnson's in the post season.
Maddux's best seasons seem more spectacular than Johnson's, but Johnson's best seasons actually ahve a higher WAR... |
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Date: June 7th, 2022 1:22 PM Author: curious bawdyhouse Maddux posted a sub 3.5 ERA from 1988 to 2002 and then "hung around" with a consistent ~4 ERA until 2008.
Led the league in ERA four times. |
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Date: June 7th, 2022 1:34 PM Author: curious bawdyhouse "Johnson never really figured it out in his 20s and became dominant in his mid thirties."
He was still good in his 20s, but got great from 1997-2005. What was it about that era and what changed in 2005? Oh, baseball started steroid testing. |
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Date: June 7th, 2022 1:47 PM Author: sienna church What "changed" is he turned 42 or whatever lol. He was putting up insane numbers during peak steroid mashball era. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5125679&forum_id=2Elisa#44642379) |
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Date: June 7th, 2022 1:49 PM Author: curious bawdyhouse that's what I'm saying, his best career years were peak steroidball and he was markedly worse as soon as testing started (which coincided with his actual aging, so he's not a prime suspect)
But Maddux's peak was more in line with typical aging patterns and RJ has made statements along the lines of he was trying different stuff but never tested positive. |
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Date: June 7th, 2022 1:53 PM Author: sienna church Steroid arguments are pretty retarded in general, but the evidence seems to indicate that hitters benefited more than pitchers did given the wild power numbers at the time. RJ kicking ass during that era is a point in his favor. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5125679&forum_id=2Elisa#44642421) |
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Date: June 7th, 2022 2:02 PM Author: tripping public bath CR also he was never hurt except in 2003 during that entire stretch of dominance and roids pitchers never last that long without getting injured if they’re using roids to really exceed their natural capacity. Did he use HGH to be that good through his 30s? Yeah probably but who cares. HGH shouldn’t even be banned. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5125679&forum_id=2Elisa#44642484) |
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Date: June 7th, 2022 1:10 PM Author: curious bawdyhouse This one has become part of Maddux folklore, although it’s not clear whether he was pitching for the Braves or Cubs at the time. As the story goes, Maddux watched a couple of infielder Jose Hernandez’s swings and then noticed he’d made an adjustment in his stance.
“We might have to call an ambulance for the first-base coach,” Maddux said.
On the next pitch, Hernandez ripped a foul ball that hit Dodgers first-base coach John Shelby in the chest.
Hall of Famer John Smoltz said there were four occasions one season when Maddux, sitting in the dugout, said: “This guy is about to hit a foul ball in here.” Three times, the hitter did just that.
Hall of Fame manager Bobby Cox once visited the mound to suggest an intentional walk. According to Cox, Maddux ticked off the next three pitches he would throw and then said: “And on the last one, I'm going to get him to pop up foul to third base."
You can guess the rest.
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Date: June 7th, 2022 1:15 PM Author: Abnormal diverse location Awesome control pitcher obviously. he was more of a hurler early on, then he realized the game was about placing pitches and changing speed--not throwing it as hard as you can |
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Date: June 7th, 2022 1:20 PM Author: vivacious yellow crackhouse tank I rewatched an old 1989 NLCS game recently and the announcers referred to Maddux as a power pitcher and I was like wtf lol (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5125679&forum_id=2Elisa#44642200) |
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Date: June 7th, 2022 1:20 PM Author: Soul-stirring Parlour Tattoo Nowadays it's the opposite (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5125679&forum_id=2Elisa#44642203) |
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Date: June 7th, 2022 1:23 PM Author: Abnormal diverse location yeah and it's really stupid- Jamie Moyer pitched into his 40s using the same idea 25 year old guys blowing their arm out because they need to throw 99 |
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Date: June 7th, 2022 2:04 PM Author: tripping public bath Stats don’t lie. Also golfing homers is a good hitting approach now and that feels 100x more sacrilegious to me. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5125679&forum_id=2Elisa#44642495) |
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Date: June 7th, 2022 1:28 PM Author: wonderful address laser beams 180 thread (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5125679&forum_id=2Elisa#44642250) |
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Date: June 7th, 2022 1:56 PM Author: Topaz Pea-brained Stage Close.
Maddux's absolute prime also kind of got fucked by the strike:
1994: 25 starts, 202.0 IP (8.08 IP/G) 10CG 3 SHO, 1.56 ERA 8.5 bWAR
1995: 28 starts, 1.63 ERA 209.2 IP 10 cg, 3 sho 9.7 bWAR
His absolute peak is definitely underrated b/c of this
I'd say for longevity, it's Maddux
For the best absolute prime ~4-5 years I'd say it's the Big Unit by a hair just b/c of the time he blew up that bird too |
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Date: June 7th, 2022 2:05 PM Author: sienna church Realistically Maddux missed what, like half a season's worth of games due to the strike? No question it was the absolute worst time in his career to be out, but it also probably doesn't move the needle a ton - it's not like a Ted Williams fighting in two wars situation. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5125679&forum_id=2Elisa#44642507) |
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Date: June 7th, 2022 2:09 PM Author: Topaz Pea-brained Stage Yea it's not like it kept him out of the hall or got him out of the top 3 of the decade status, but when it's this close between the two it definitely does add to the discussion imo (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5125679&forum_id=2Elisa#44642526) |
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Date: June 7th, 2022 2:20 PM Author: sienna church to be fair, Randy was just starting to put it together when the strike hit: he put up 5.5 bWAR in 1994 and 8.6 bWAR in 1995, so he got a bit fucked there too. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5125679&forum_id=2Elisa#44642595) |
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Date: June 7th, 2022 2:53 PM Author: Puce insane headpube center Love mad dog, but the big unit might have been the most intimidating pitcher of all time. You just don't 'fear' an 80mph off-speed pitch delivered with the exact same arm motion and speed as the 91mph 4-seam, causing you to swing early and ground out to third.
You fear the really huge, really ugly guy with occasional control issues who flings sidearm fastballs at 102mph and who may resent that your face is too pretty and decide to explode the soft tissue of it like he did to that dove. |
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Date: June 7th, 2022 3:40 PM Author: sienna church https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMcr4m3VOvA (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5125679&forum_id=2Elisa#44643122) |
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Date: June 7th, 2022 3:43 PM Author: Razzle property cumskin (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5125679&forum_id=2Elisa#44643141) |
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Date: June 7th, 2022 10:05 PM Author: glassy exhilarant sneaky criminal (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5125679&forum_id=2Elisa#44645238) |
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Date: June 7th, 2022 4:23 PM Author: violent green gaping As others have said, they were basically equally valuable on paper. I would have a hard time choosing one or the other. However, a couple arguments for Maddux that others have not mentioned:
He basically never walked anyone. I believe he has the second lowest career walk rate during the live ball, and during his peak, there were a couple seasons where he came close to having more wins than walks, which is completely insane. (And of the walks he did issue, a shockingly high percentage of them were intentional.) No, when you were batting against Maddux, you weren't worried that he would destroy your face the day Johnson destroyed that bird. But I think there also has to be a certain intimidation factor basically knowing that he was not going to walk you and the only way to get on base is to swing the bat.
It's also worth pointing out that he was an 18-time Gold Glove winner, which I believe is still an all-time MLB record. I think part of the reason his pitching numbers were so good wasn't just because he was a great pitcher but also because he was an elite defender once the ball was in play. I don't know if the advanced pitching statistics consider his contributions with his glove in addition to his arm. If not, that gives some additional points to Maddux. |
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Date: June 7th, 2022 4:37 PM Author: Cyan pisswyrm good points, although won't the low walks show up in his ERA+? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5125679&forum_id=2Elisa#44643462) |
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Date: June 7th, 2022 4:39 PM Author: Electric People Who Are Hurt Garrison I think the advanced statistics would say a pitcher's fielding is pretty irrelevant given how few balls they field (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5125679&forum_id=2Elisa#44643476) |
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Date: June 7th, 2022 6:25 PM Author: Topaz Pea-brained Stage More applicable to modern day, but Maddux generated enough grounders for his defense to matter
(and even more so for Glavine lmao) |
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Date: June 7th, 2022 7:05 PM Author: Razzle property cumskin (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5125679&forum_id=2Elisa#44644219) |
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Date: June 7th, 2022 11:01 PM Author: curious bawdyhouse No. That's the opposite of advanced stats. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5125679&forum_id=2Elisa#44645547) |
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Date: June 7th, 2022 9:57 PM Author: Puce insane headpube center CR. Maddux also probably had 70 points of batting average on Johnson. That whole braves rotation were good-hitting pitchers — glavine had years where he was flat-out a good hitter. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5125679&forum_id=2Elisa#44645192) |
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Date: June 7th, 2022 11:01 PM Author: curious bawdyhouse As a pitcher having to go against Maddux and then he gets a couple RBIs off you . . . brutal. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5125679&forum_id=2Elisa#44645543) |
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Date: June 7th, 2022 10:59 PM Author: curious bawdyhouse good poast (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5125679&forum_id=2Elisa#44645532) |
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Date: June 4th, 2026 12:18 AM Author: The depth of human depravity is boundless. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5125679&forum_id=2Elisa#49914274) |
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Date: June 4th, 2026 12:17 AM Author: The depth of human depravity is boundless. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5125679&forum_id=2Elisa#49914273) |