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Astra, tell me about how crazy op knights were in their heyday. Go deep/amusing

A good medieval knight was an appallingly unfair opponent. H...
Non sequitur
  09/23/26
now tell me about the fall of the knight --- In 1415, ...
Non sequitur
  09/23/26


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Date: September 23rd, 2026 12:41 PM
Author: Non sequitur

A good medieval knight was an appallingly unfair opponent. He could hit harder than you, survive things that would kill you, catch you if you ran, and often escape if he was losing. And if you somehow captured him, there was a decent chance your superiors wanted him kept alive because he was valuable.

You, meanwhile, might simply be an expense.

The fascinating part is how many advantages were concentrated in one person—and how much of medieval society existed to keep that person exceptionally dangerous.

First, put the “heyday” roughly in the eleventh through thirteenth centuries in western Europe. That’s a useful approximation, not a universal reign of invincibility. And those knights mostly wore mail, helmets, and shields. The complete articulated steel suit belongs to a later period: full plate developed around the turn of the fifteenth century. The knight’s peak equipment and his greatest relative dominance weren’t quite the same moment. The Met’s armor history

Imagine facing a capable knight around 1200 as a comparatively inexperienced foot soldier.

Your first problem is that this has been a major part of his life since childhood. Riding, handling weapons, hunting, practicing against targets, learning from experienced fighters. His ability to control a horse while doing something violent is an acquired skill, backed by years of repetition. Wealth also pays for horses, equipment, attendants, and the time to practice. Knightly training and equipment

Think about the difference between an ordinary reasonably fit man and a serious competitive fighter. Then give the fighter much better protection, a weapon with greater reach, and a horse.

This is the opposite of a sporting arrangement. You have been entered into someone else’s highlight reel.

That doesn’t mean every knight was an athletic prodigy or every infantryman an agricultural bystander. Armies contained experienced foot soldiers, professional specialists, and tough militia. Some knights were mediocre. But against a poorly equipped, poorly trained opponent, the advantages stacked brutally.

And armor mattered much more than movies usually allow.

In films, armor often exists so that someone can wear a visually interesting costume while being stabbed through the abdomen with approximately the resistance of a dinner jacket. In reality, mail was highly effective against cuts. With padding and a shield, it could turn a potentially disabling blow into something survivable. It wasn’t invulnerability: powerful thrusts, missiles, blunt trauma, and exposed areas remained serious problems. Later plate made many ordinary cutting attacks even less useful.

The consequence is an asymmetry in how precisely each person has to fight. You may need a particular opening, a powerful well-placed attack, or help. He may only need to hit an inadequately protected part of you.

He has a margin for error. Your margin for error is a funeral.

Then there’s the horse, which changes the entire encounter.

The lance charge combined reach, speed, a stable riding position, and coordinated movement. With the lance couched beneath the arm, the rider could deliver a forceful attack while supported by his saddle. Later equipment refined this further: the metal lance rest on a breastplate helped stabilize the lance and manage the shock. The Met explains the mechanics

But the most important thing about a cavalry charge isn’t a physics calculation about how many joules Sir Geoffrey brings to the meeting.

It’s what happens in the heads of the people he is approaching.

Picture a body of mounted men advancing toward your formation. You know that staying together is your best chance. You also know that staying together requires the people beside you to stay together. Your survival depends on a collective decision made by men who are individually having an extremely reasonable desire to leave.

You don’t necessarily have to believe the knights are unstoppable. You only have to suspect that the man beside you believes it.

Once people start backing away, turning, or opening gaps, the formation loses the protection that made resistance possible. And cavalry is exceptionally well suited to exploiting that collapse. A man who runs away from another man has some chance. A man who runs away from a horse has begun a very short endurance event.

This is why “just give everyone spears” is both basically sensible and wildly incomplete.

Spears are excellent. Men who remain organized, support one another, and use favorable ground can make cavalry attacks ruinously expensive. But handing somebody a pointed pole does not automatically install the discipline to hold it steady while a mounted professional approaches.

Age of Empires gives your spearmen excellent employee retention.

Real infantry requires leadership, cohesion, confidence, and some reason to believe the formation will work.

Hastings in 1066 illustrates both sides. The English defensive position and shield wall repeatedly resisted Norman attacks. William’s cavalry did not simply press the charge button and delete the army. But when some English soldiers pursued retreating Normans and lost their formation, they became vulnerable to mounted counterattacks. Details of the feigned retreats are debated, but the distinction between an organized defensive body and exposed pursuers is fundamental. Account of Hastings

The horse also gives its rider choices.

He can threaten a flank, concentrate against a weaker point, pursue, or withdraw more readily than a man on foot—assuming terrain, space, and an uninjured mount. You might be extremely dangerous inside your formation. He doesn’t necessarily have to attack you there.

That’s the less cinematic kind of dominance: making the other side organize its behavior around what you could do.

An infantry formation can successfully deter cavalry and still find itself pinned in place, unable to protect another part of the battlefield. Being difficult to kill isn’t the same thing as controlling the situation.

For a particularly good demonstration of the whole system, take Arsuf in 1191.

Richard the Lionheart’s army marched along the coast while Saladin’s forces harassed it. The crusader infantry screened the mounted troops; crossbowmen helped keep attackers at a distance; the fleet supported the march. The knights’ horses needed protection so they could remain available for decisive action. Eventually a charge began among the Hospitallers in the rear, and Richard committed more of the army. Saladin’s forces were driven back. Historians disagree about exactly how planned or unauthorized the opening charge was. Historian Stuart Ellis-Gorman on Arsuf

That is what effective knightly warfare could look like: a combined force preserving its expensive mounted punch until it could be delivered.

There’s also a wonderfully alarming detail in the accounts of that campaign. Saladin’s associate Baha al-Din described Frankish infantry continuing to march with arrows sticking out of their protective equipment, apparently without injury. These were infantrymen, so it isn’t a story about knights being uniquely arrowproof. It illustrates how equipment could make the same battlefield feel radically different depending on what you were wearing. Baha al-Din’s account, discussed here

Imagine shooting somebody and watching him continue his commute.

Now add the economic structure, because this is where “overpowered unit” becomes “overpowered social class.”

Maintaining mounted warriors required a continuing flow of resources. Horses need feeding and care even when nobody is campaigning. Equipment needs replacing. Attendants need supporting. Training consumes time. Land revenues, lordly households, wages, patronage, and other arrangements financed this in different places and periods.

The knight on the battlefield was the visible end of a much larger investment.

In RTS terms, you’re seeing the unit, but the villagers and production infrastructure are offscreen.

That relationship could also reinforce itself: wealth helped buy military effectiveness; military effectiveness helped secure wealth and position. It wasn’t a perfectly closed system, and knighthood wasn’t identical to either nobility or landownership. But the connection between social standing and access to organized violence was very direct.

Modern elites generally have to outsource the violence. These people could arrive personally to discuss your overdue rent.

And the incentives within their own fighting culture could be astonishing.

Medieval tournaments, particularly the earlier mêlées, were often team combats over substantial areas rather than two gentlemen taking turns beside a decorative fence. Capturing opponents, their horses, and their equipment could produce real financial rewards. You could improve your skills, build your reputation, cultivate patrons, and make money by physically apprehending other wealthy men. Early tournament practice

A professional sport with kidnapping revenue.

William Marshal is the great example. He built a formidable tournament reputation and later became one of the most powerful men in England. His medieval biography attributes to him a career total of roughly 500 defeated knights—a celebratory claim, not an audited record. More securely, he was around seventy when he led the royal army to victory at Lincoln in 1217 and personally participated in the fighting. William Marshal’s career

Seventy. Still getting on the horse.

Most organizations would have offered him an advisory role. England handed him a lance and a succession crisis.

Ransom made actual warfare among elites different, too. A recognizable, wealthy captive could be worth far more alive than dead. That created incentives to accept surrender and preserve valuable prisoners, although these customs were uneven and could disappear in a massacre, a bitter feud, or an emergency.

For the well-connected combatant, defeat sometimes meant captivity and a financially devastating negotiation. For someone without ransom value, the same defeat could have a much shorter administrative process.

Chivalry had sincere moral content—courage, loyalty, generosity, obligations toward the vulnerable—but its actual protections were selective. It coexisted comfortably enough with devastation inflicted on civilians. Chivalric ideals and practice

So the elite warrior could have both a better chance of surviving the fight and a better chance of surviving losing it.

That is a fairly obnoxious set of perks.

One further correction makes knights more impressive: getting them off the horse did not necessarily solve your problem.

The helpless overturned beetle in a steel shell is largely a myth. Later battlefield plate commonly weighed around 45–55 pounds, distributed across the body. A trained wearer could move, fight, and get up. It was tiring and restrictive compared with ordinary clothes; it wasn’t a portable prison. Armor weight and mobility

A dismounted knight might still be a skilled, heavily protected fighter. Later fighting manuals show sophisticated systems of wrestling, dagger work, swordsmanship, and combat with poleaxes, both in and out of armor. These men weren’t restricted to one mounted attack animation. Talhoffer’s fighting manual

You have successfully removed his transportation. Unfortunately, the passenger remains an issue.

Still, there’s an important limit to the fantasy. A lone knight surrounded by several determined armed opponents is in serious danger. Armor has openings. Horses can be killed. Men fall, tire, overheat, and get dragged down. There is no honest conversion rate of “one knight equals twelve peasants.” Terrain, equipment, cohesion, surprise, and willingness to fight matter too much.

And organized infantry could absolutely wreck them.

At Courtrai in 1302, Flemish forces defeated a French army whose mounted elite suffered catastrophic losses. The victors were largely urban militia, not a spontaneously assembled mob of pitchfork enthusiasts. Their organization and defensive position mattered. The battle became known as the Battle of the Golden Spurs after the trophies taken from fallen French nobles. Ellis-Gorman on Courtrai

There is something especially pointed about losing a battle and having the other side name it after your accessories.

But that kind of defeat doesn’t make knightly power imaginary. It shows what was required to defeat it: an opponent capable of denying its strengths and maintaining the organization needed to exploit its weaknesses.

The really striking thing about knights is that their reputation had a substantial material basis. They weren’t merely rich men whom everyone politely agreed were brave. Many were specialists in an extremely demanding form of violence, equipped at great expense, embedded in military households, and backed by a culture that rewarded prowess.

Against the right opposition they were beatable. Against the wrong opposition they could be terrifyingly effective.

Imagine being a foot soldier who has already marched for days, slept badly, and become increasingly doubtful about this entire enterprise. Across the field is a man who has spent years preparing for precisely this kind of encounter. His equipment makes him difficult to hurt. His friends are similarly equipped. He can reach you quickly, and if your line breaks, he can follow.

And back home, people are writing poetry about how splendid he is.

You would have some balance feedback.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5906166&forum_id=2Reputation#50150946)



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Date: September 23rd, 2026 12:42 PM
Author: Non sequitur

now tell me about the fall of the knight

---

In 1415, one of the French commanders at Agincourt was a man called Boucicaut. He was a celebrated knight, an experienced campaigner, and apparently an alarming person to exercise with. His admiring biography described feats such as climbing the underside of a ladder using only his hands while wearing armor. He had been made a marshal of France in his twenties.

At Agincourt, he was captured. He spent the remaining six years of his life in English captivity. Boucicaut’s biography

He is a useful person to keep in mind, because the knights who suffered these disasters could be exceptionally capable. They had good equipment, considerable experience, and entirely justified confidence in their ability to hurt people. Their enemies had to find ways around those advantages.

And the first serious blows came well before firearms became common.

Consider what happened at Courtrai in 1302. A French army confronted Flemish rebels whose strength lay in infantry, including militia from prosperous towns. These men had weapons, organization, and leaders. They also had something rather more motivating than an abstract interest in improving infantry tactics: they were fighting over who would rule their communities.

They occupied ground broken by streams and ditches. The French mounted attack had to negotiate those obstacles before reaching dense formations of armed men. The Flemings held, the attack broke down, and the French suffered a spectacular defeat. The victors collected golden spurs from dead knights and displayed them in a church. The Battle of the Golden Spurs

Think through the physical change when a mounted attack stalls.

While approaching in good order, you have speed, reach, and other riders supporting you. Once crowded against an unbroken formation, you may have very little room to turn or withdraw. Men can attack your horse. A wounded or falling horse can put you on the ground among people who have been waiting for precisely that opportunity.

Among the Flemish weapons was the goedendag, essentially a stout wooden club with an iron spike. It could strike or thrust. There was nothing particularly elegant about it, but elegance was not the immediate requirement. The goedendag

Armor still helped enormously. But it could not keep several opponents from overwhelming a rider who had lost his mobility and support. Nor did a knight’s value as a prisoner always save him. At Courtrai, the Flemings killed many men who might otherwise have expected to be ransomed.

The contemporary Annals of Ghent relished the social reversal: the flower of knighthood had fallen before “weavers, fullers and the common folk.” The chronicler also acknowledged that these were well-armed, courageous men under expert leaders. People at the time understood that this was an achievement requiring preparation. They simply enjoyed the humiliation as well.

Yet cavalry recovered from defeats like this. Infantry could lose cohesion, get caught moving, choose poor ground, or be attacked from a vulnerable direction. The knight’s advantages returned very quickly when that happened.

That is why his decline took so long. The things that made him dangerous remained dangerous.

The English developed one particularly effective way of managing that danger: archers supported by armored men fighting on foot, with terrain and obstacles helping to protect the position. A mounted attacker might struggle to reach the archers intact. An attacker on foot had to endure the approach and then fight the English men-at-arms.

Notice who was standing in the English line. Knights and other heavily armored professionals were helping make the system work. They had recognized that their armor, discipline, and skill remained valuable after they got off their horses.

At Agincourt, most of the main French assault also came on foot. The French were already adapting. Unfortunately, they advanced across wet, muddy ground into a narrow frontage, under archery, and became increasingly crowded as they reached the English.

Many survived the approach. Their armor did its job. But survivors arrived tired and compressed together, with limited room to use their weapons. Men behind pressed forward without necessarily understanding what was happening at the front. Fallen bodies became further obstacles. English archers eventually joined the close fighting alongside their own men-at-arms. The fighting at Agincourt

That is a much more frightening situation than the familiar picture of arrows effortlessly piercing every breastplate. Good plate could resist arrows, although protection varied with the armor, the impact, and where the arrow struck. Archery could still wound exposed areas, injure horses, and force men to keep their faces protected. It helped create the conditions in which the assault failed. Armor and archery at Agincourt

Imagine having the strength and technique to beat almost anyone within reach, but insufficient space to move your arm. The men pushing into your back are your own side. You cannot tell them all to stop, cannot easily retreat, and cannot see much through your helmet.

Boucicaut’s athleticism was real enough. There were circumstances in which it could accomplish very little.

But fourteen years later, at Patay, French horsemen caught English archers before they had finished preparing their position. The archers were overwhelmed, the English army routed, and senior commanders captured.

The same broad combination that had been so successful at Agincourt proved vulnerable when it was caught during deployment. Mounted men could cover the distance and exploit the opening faster than the English could repair it. The Battle of Patay

This is why the French kept their cavalry. People sometimes describe their persistence as if generations of commanders were unable to grasp an obvious lesson. They had other lessons available: sometimes the charge worked beautifully.

The harder problem was producing an army that could create those opportunities reliably.

During the fifteenth century, Swiss infantry became famous for doing something more ambitious than standing behind an obstacle and resisting cavalry. Their formations could advance aggressively, maintaining enough cohesion to bring large numbers of pikes into action.

A pike was much longer than an ordinary spear. In a well-ordered body, men behind the front rank could project their weapons forward, presenting several layers of points. The individual pikeman did not need to win a sword fight with a knight. He needed to help preserve a formation that made such a fight difficult to reach. Handling these weapons while moving and fighting demanded practice and discipline. Swiss pike warfare

These were frightening troops in their own right. The Swiss reputation was built through aggressive fighting, and their victories could be exceptionally bloody. They were not gentle villagers reluctantly demonstrating a humane alternative to aristocratic violence.

Their defeats of Charles the Bold of Burgundy were devastating. In 1476, he lost at Grandson and then at Morat. In 1477, he was killed at Nancy, fighting a coalition that included Swiss forces. His army had artillery, cavalry, infantry, and considerable resources. The defeat was of a major military power, with consequences extending far beyond the battlefield. The Burgundian Wars

Victories made Swiss soldiers desirable mercenaries. Other rulers hired them; competitors developed similar infantry forces. Now the knight faced opponents whose cohesion and combat experience could match the seriousness of his own preparation.

Meanwhile, the armor was getting better.

This is one of the stranger features of the story. Some of the finest equipment we associate with medieval knights was produced during the period when their relative importance was declining. Full plate offered excellent protection, articulated joints allowed useful movement, and armorers refined shapes to deflect blows. Wealthy warriors could also protect their horses extensively.

There was a good reason to keep buying it. On battlefields filled with edged weapons, lances, pikes, arrows, and fragments, protection that stopped even some attacks was tremendously valuable. The appearance of guns did not erase all the other ways someone might try to kill you.

Firearms instead made the protection problem progressively harder.

An arrow’s performance and an early gun’s performance were different, and both varied enormously. Some armor could resist some gunfire. Armorers hardened steel, thickened vulnerable areas, and supplied reinforcing plates. But more protection generally imposed more weight and expense. Covering the torso heavily was easier than protecting every limb and the entire horse to the same standard. The Met on armor and firearms

For the rider, the horse remained an especially unpleasant vulnerability. You could survive a hit that disabled it and suddenly find yourself on foot, separated from the rest of your formation. Or underneath it. Buying excellent personal armor could not eliminate the consequences of sitting on another mortal creature.

Early firearm troops had vulnerabilities of their own. Loading took time. Weapons could malfunction. A gunman caught without protection by mounted men could be killed before getting another useful shot.

The answer was to have other soldiers nearby who could protect him. Pike-and-shot arrangements brought together infantry with firearms and infantry with long weapons, in varying formations and proportions. The shooters could threaten an enemy that stayed at a distance; the pikemen helped resist an enemy that tried to close. Pike-and-shot tactics

This imposed a more difficult approach on cavalry. A mounted commander needed an exposed flank, a gap, a distracted enemy, or help from his own infantry and artillery. Charging a prepared body straight on could remain possible in some circumstances, but the risks were increasingly severe.

At Pavia in 1525, those risks became a catastrophe for Francis I of France.

His armored cavalry initially drove back opposing horsemen. The charge itself could still work. But the French mounted troops became isolated from effective support and were attacked by imperial infantry, including Spanish arquebusiers and German pikemen. Restricted room for maneuver compounded the problem. Many French nobles were killed; Francis lost his horse and was captured. The Battle of Pavia

There is something revealing about the opening success. The cavalry could win its immediate encounter and still contribute to losing the battle by ending up in a position the rest of the army could not sustain.

Francis had previously won at Marignano in 1515, where his cavalry operated alongside infantry and artillery against Swiss troops. Neither mounted knights nor pike formations possessed a permanent advantage over everything else. Their effectiveness depended increasingly on the other forces around them. French heavy cavalry in the Italian Wars

The financial and political changes followed the same pattern: armies required more capabilities than a collection of well-equipped noble warriors could supply.

Artillery needed metal, powder, shot, transport, skilled personnel, and continual expenditure. Sustained infantry forces required recruitment, pay, provisions, and replacement. Rulers needed revenue and administrative machinery to keep the whole thing operating.

They still needed nobles, too. But they had growing reasons to bring military service under more regular royal control. In France, reforms of the 1440s established permanent companies built around men-at-arms and their supporting personnel. Armored horsemen became part of the stronger royal army. The ordonnance companies

And the French learned from their defeats.

At Castillon in 1453, near the end of the Hundred Years’ War, English troops attacked a fortified French position equipped with numerous guns. French artillery inflicted severe losses, and a cavalry attack helped complete the English defeat. The veteran English commander John Talbot was killed. The Battle of Castillon

The nation famous for losing knights to English archers finished the war using an entrenched artillery position against an English assault. That is a rather substantial amount of learning.

By the later sixteenth century, a mounted warrior had several possible futures. He could remain a lancer, adopt pistols, serve in increasingly specialized cavalry formations, or command troops whose equipment and methods differed from his own. Armor persisted, especially protection for the head and torso. Cavalry remained important.

The lance itself gradually lost ground in much of western Europe. Contemporary soldiers argued about its effectiveness against pistol-armed cavalry. Pistols offered riders a powerful close-range attack without requiring the same lance handling, and they could be carried alongside swords. The change was uneven, contested, and accompanied by plenty of successful cavalry fighting. The adaptation of the gendarmes

Nor did aristocratic families generally disappear when their distinctive way of fighting diminished. They still had land, connections, education, and access to rulers. Many supplied the officers and commanders of the new armies. Their military role changed more completely than their social standing.

So there was no last afternoon when everyone looked at an armored horseman and realized he was ridiculous. For a long time, seeing one coming toward you remained a perfectly sound reason to be afraid.

What gradually disappeared was the enormous advantage concentrated in that single man. Infantry could stand against him, attack him, and increasingly shoot him with weapons his protection struggled to defeat. Rulers could raise forces whose strength rested on thousands of men performing complementary tasks. He could adapt and remain formidable, but more of his success depended on those other men.

Boucicaut had trained himself to do extraordinary things in armor. Over the following centuries, armies became better at arranging battles in which an opponent never got the chance to show how extraordinary he was.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5906166&forum_id=2Reputation#50150949)