The most prestigious law school admissions discussion board in the world.
|
 |
 
|
"Final" employment study draft uploaded
Poast new message in this thread
Date: March 23rd, 2005 11:15 AM Author: Marvelous territorial stage "Final" in name only since it'll still be changed regardless (if dinged everywhere I'll edit and resubmit, if accepted somewhere I'd have to edit anyway). However, this is what's been sent to journals.
http://www.autoadmit.com/studies/ciolli
Comments welcome. |
 |
Date: March 23rd, 2005 11:16 AM Author: pea-brained station psychic Sweet. I was pre-sticky. Thats prestigious. |
|
Date: March 23rd, 2005 11:47 AM Author: citrine deep location dog poop Very nice work.
"while the average Cravath equity partner earns $2,110,000 per year, the average Hughes equity partner earns only $450,000 per year."
While this is the final copy, when you edit for publication, you should add emphasis on only. :) |
|
Date: March 23rd, 2005 2:09 PM Author: Sienna Plaza Quadroon what journals? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=153341&forum_id=2#2388176) |
|
Date: March 23rd, 2005 2:13 PM Author: Marvelous territorial stage All of them, minus the ones that explicitly stated that they don't accept submissions written by people currently in law school.
As an unknown you can't take any chances -- especially if you're an unknown, a law student, wrote an empirical piece, *and* the piece includes rankings that might make many low ranked schools look pretty bad. In other words, I had 4 strikes against me before I even submitted to anyone.
Way I see it, I'll probably either get dinged everywhere, or get accepted someplace really prestigious. |
|
Date: March 23rd, 2005 2:31 PM Author: Sienna Plaza Quadroon Law Journals?
And what do you mean by accepted? It's a research article. |
|
Date: March 23rd, 2005 2:32 PM Author: Marvelous territorial stage Accepted for publication. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=153341&forum_id=2#2388317) |
|
Date: March 23rd, 2005 2:36 PM Author: Sienna Plaza Quadroon where and to whom? Will it ever hit newsstands or bookstores or is just for academia? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=153341&forum_id=2#2388353) |
|
Date: March 23rd, 2005 2:37 PM Author: Marvelous territorial stage Law journals.
It might. We'll see. |
|
Date: March 23rd, 2005 3:12 PM Author: pea-brained station psychic Is this the case for a lot of journals? Or do very few explicitly state that they do not accept submissions from current law students? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=153341&forum_id=2#2388554) |
|
Date: March 23rd, 2005 3:19 PM Author: Marvelous territorial stage 15 journals specifically said they do not accept submissions from current law students, and another 3 sent me a rejection letter within 24 hours saying that they're rejecting me outright because I'm a law student. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=153341&forum_id=2#2388598) |
|
Date: March 24th, 2005 1:06 AM Author: glittery abode What do you mean by 'all of them?' All topical journals? All law reviews? I can't believe you sent this to every single journal that exists. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=153341&forum_id=2#2393656) |
|
Date: March 24th, 2005 1:08 AM Author: Marvelous territorial stage All law reviews and education/labor journals. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=153341&forum_id=2#2393668) |
|
Date: March 24th, 2005 1:11 AM Author: glittery abode Gotcha. Did you submit electronically or by mail? I got an article published that I submitted by mail and it was ridiculously expensive sending it out. I have heard there is a database somewhere that will submit electronically for you for a fee, but I don't know if this is true. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=153341&forum_id=2#2393705) |
|
Date: March 24th, 2005 1:13 AM Author: Marvelous territorial stage Electronically to everyone who took it electronically, by mail everywhere else. I'm going to send the mail ones through expresso since it'll probably come up cheaper through them. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=153341&forum_id=2#2393727) |
|
Date: March 24th, 2005 1:15 AM Author: glittery abode Expresso?
My article got picked up pretty quickly. It was more 'legal' than yours though. Still, I bet you'll have better luck than expected. Don't be surprised if you get stuck with a TTT journal; usually your first few publications will be in journals no one's heard of, but once you have a few, it'll be easier to get into more prestigious journals. |
|
Date: March 24th, 2005 1:18 AM Author: Marvelous territorial stage Expresso is the service that submits to places for a fee. For print submissions it's $6.50 per review, which I think is cheaper than doing it myself.
How long did it take before you got your first acceptance? I assume you submitted as a student? |
|
Date: March 24th, 2005 1:21 AM Author: glittery abode Hmmm. Mine was about 45 pages, I mailed it regular mail, printed for free in the library and postage was $2. But you definitely save time with the service.
I think it took about a month. Most journals start accepting submissions in early February and making decisions in March-April. I had 10 dings before I got an acceptance. I submitted to 25 journals.
edit- I withdrew from the other 14 journals, so I only got the one acceptance. |
|
Date: March 24th, 2005 1:24 AM Author: Marvelous territorial stage Wow, when did you submit, February?
I hope submitting in late March hasn't fucked me over.
Alas, I don't know of any free library I can print from here. |
|
Date: March 24th, 2005 1:28 AM Author: glittery abode Oh, I just printed in the law library. You don't get free printing at Penn? Very TTT :).
I don't think it will fuck you over at all. I know my friends on journals at my school are still looking at new articles. I definitely submitted early (early Feb). I doubt a law review will publish yours because it's very non-legal, but an employment journal will probably like it.
One problem I did run into is some journals wouldn't even consider it since I submitted it concurrently to different journals. Did you watch out for that? |
|
Date: March 24th, 2005 1:30 AM Author: Marvelous territorial stage Yeah, didn't apply to the peer reviewed ones that require single submission. I figure if I get dinged everywhere I'll resubmit it to those one by one during the summer. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=153341&forum_id=2#2393904) |
|
Date: March 24th, 2005 2:16 AM Author: glittery abode I applied mostly to peer reviewed ones, on the advice of a professor, and it was a peer reviewed one that accepted it. So that might be a good idea. Your topic isn't so timely that it needs to be published immediately, so you're fine. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=153341&forum_id=2#2394268) |
Date: March 23rd, 2005 12:02 PM Author: light concupiscible temple So I asked this in the other thread, and you never replied. I am curious what really makes this study significant and would compel someone to publish it? I am not trying to discount your work or anything like that, so don't take it that way. What I mean is, how much more useful is it than just looking in USN and noting to what regions of the country law grads move? There has always been an assumption that better schools have options outside their regions, whereas lower-ranked schools do not, and I don't really see anything in the study that says otherwise (and by better and lower-ranked I don't mean the top 14 versus everyone else). I just wonder what your hook really is with the paper. Nevertheless, I do wish you the best of luck. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=153341&forum_id=2#2387506) |
|
Date: March 23rd, 2005 12:37 PM Author: Marvelous territorial stage Pages 18 to 29.
This isn't a ranking study, it's a determinants of employment placement study. The "rankings" were just created as a way to measure employment placement so I could do the regression, which was the goal all along.
"School Y is ranked higher than Schools X and Z" isn't very helpful -- what's helpful is knowing WHY School Y is ranked higher than Schools X and Z. Is it reputation? Is it curriculum? Class rank disclosure policies? Class size? Grading system? That's what I'm trying to answer here. |
|
Date: March 23rd, 2005 1:46 PM Author: Swashbuckling Address Mad Cow Disease I'm guessing this would be more helpful for LS administrators than potential applicants. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=153341&forum_id=2#2388048) |
|
Date: March 23rd, 2005 1:51 PM Author: Marvelous territorial stage It's helpful for both. Ordinal rankings become easily outdated, something like this does not. If you're choosing between two TTTs, knowing which grading system, class rank disclosure policy, etc. are ideal will be more helpful than looking at US News. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=153341&forum_id=2#2388074) |
|
Date: March 23rd, 2005 2:06 PM Author: Henna Boyish Goyim I didn't read the study in full but there is a BCG study of law schools kind of like this....did you reference/use it? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=153341&forum_id=2#2388165) |
|
Date: March 23rd, 2005 2:09 PM Author: Marvelous territorial stage The BCG guide was a good first step for determining which grading system schools use and which disclose class rank. However they didn't do a "study" per se, they just provided profiles of each school's policies without commenting on whether they were successful or not. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=153341&forum_id=2#2388175) |
|
Date: March 23rd, 2005 3:21 PM Author: citrine deep location dog poop You are right again! (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=153341&forum_id=2#2388611) |
|
Date: March 23rd, 2005 2:56 PM Author: light concupiscible temple Fair enough. I still don't see the real significance, but good luck to you. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=153341&forum_id=2#2388482) |
|
Date: March 24th, 2005 2:01 AM Author: sooty hell milk Law graduate placement is a strategic constant-sum game. You were just eager to use regression analysis. Your model explains nothing. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=153341&forum_id=2#2394124) |
|
Date: March 24th, 2005 10:41 AM Author: light concupiscible temple I agree. I just tried to be nicer about it. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=153341&forum_id=2#2395580) |
|
Date: March 24th, 2005 10:42 AM Author: Marvelous territorial stage Well you're entitled to your opinion, but experts in the field seem to think otherwise. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=153341&forum_id=2#2395590) |
|
Date: March 24th, 2005 12:16 PM Author: light concupiscible temple I am just curious - what experts in what field? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=153341&forum_id=2#2396180) |
|
Date: March 24th, 2005 12:18 PM Author: Marvelous territorial stage Economics of higher education, higher education rankings. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=153341&forum_id=2#2396194) |
|
Date: March 24th, 2005 12:24 PM Author: light concupiscible temple Wow. I didn't know there were specialists in those areas. So simplify it for me. How should a prospective law student use your study? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=153341&forum_id=2#2396238) |
|
Date: March 24th, 2005 12:26 PM Author: Marvelous territorial stage It's a surprisingly large field. Here's an example of one research institute devoted to economics of higher education that includes lots of papers dealing w/ quantitative studies or rankings analyses:
http://www.ilr.cornell.edu/cheri/
As I said in the beginning, the purpose is for students and other stakeholders to identify characteristics that are positively associated with stronger national employment placement at elite firms. |
|
Date: March 24th, 2005 12:27 PM Author: light concupiscible temple But more so for students that go to TTT's, right? For the top schools I don't think a study is necessary. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=153341&forum_id=2#2396261) |
|
Date: March 24th, 2005 12:29 PM Author: Marvelous territorial stage It's for both, and it's not geared only towards students.
If you've looked at the appendices, you'll see that the traditional HYS / CCN / MVP / etc. categories just don't seem to hold. Reputation isn't everything. |
|
Date: March 24th, 2005 12:31 PM Author: light concupiscible temple OK. So I understand for the lower ranked-schools, but for top schools the assumption has been that you have more opportunities. I don't see that your study, taking into account the different grading systems, etc., debunks this. And, ultimately, the students should be your target b/c schools are going to continue to pay close attention to USN's rankings b/c they are the ones that really matter.
Anyway, like I said, not questioning or attacking you. Just curious. Good luck to you. |
|
Date: March 24th, 2005 12:33 PM Author: Marvelous territorial stage The goal wasn't to create a set of ordinal rankings, the goal was to identify the factors that determine national placement. Ordinal rankings get outdated, something like this does not. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=153341&forum_id=2#2396313) |
|
Date: March 24th, 2005 12:41 PM Author: light concupiscible temple Right. I understand that. But ultimately the students should be your target b/c they will find the info most useful. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=153341&forum_id=2#2396356) |
|
Date: March 24th, 2005 4:22 PM Author: sooty hell milk Any school that adopts the placement-enhancing attributes your regression recommends (coefficients > 0) immediately becomes an anomalous data point (i.e. your regression instantly becomes outdated). The law schools are strategic players. You need a game-theoretic model. Linear regression says nothing here. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=153341&forum_id=2#2397820) |
|
Date: March 24th, 2005 9:11 PM Author: Naked legal warrant orchestra pit This guy just doesn't get it. Forget about it... it's just too complex. Just tell him that he should try for YHS. That's a simple enuf goal. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=153341&forum_id=2#2399821) |
|
Date: March 24th, 2005 9:16 PM Author: light concupiscible temple Me? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=153341&forum_id=2#2399851) |
|
Date: March 24th, 2005 6:30 PM Author: Chrome state I had a question regarding George Washington's strong placement in the Pacific (R9) area. Looking over 2003 employment statistics, only 6% of GW's student body ended up working in R9. According to your results, GW is placing far ahead of USC/UCLA in both Per Capita Placement and TQS ratings. USC and UCLA are both regionally strong T20 schools centered around the R9 area; whereas GW is a #20 school located across the nation. Following these lines, you would expect USC/UCLA to hold their own against a seemingly weak competitor. Can you explain the discrepancy? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=153341&forum_id=2#2398796) |
|
Date: March 24th, 2005 9:43 PM Author: Charismatic Filthy Theatre I think the "just anxious to use regression analysis" comment is fairly accurate. I made comments on the previous thread that you did not respond to.
This comment was in a footnote: "The U group received Vault and PPP scores of 250 – this number is completely arbitrary and has no effect on the rankings, for any number greater than the lowest possible Vault or PPP rank attainable by a firm would accomplish the same thing." I don't the "no effect" comment can be defended. Consider how badly John Marshall's TQS score would suffer by a lower U since over 90% in both regions in which it appears receive this ranking. I think your study does a poor job accounting for schools that don't have a large placement into top firms. |
|
Date: March 24th, 2005 9:50 PM Author: sooty hell milk I'd go a step further. For schools that don't place a large proportion of their graduates at top firms, the ranking is no better than a guess. Two law schools that place 3% of their graduates at (equally prestigious) top firms would be ranked identically, without regard to where the other 97% of their graduates work. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=153341&forum_id=2#2400154) |
|
Date: March 24th, 2005 10:56 PM Author: Marvelous territorial stage I specifically state that the rankings measure elite firm placement and nothing else. If 3% of each school's class goes to equivalent elite firms, then they place equally in elite firms (assuming that random error is evenly distributed). What happens to the other 97% is not, and never was, the objective of this study. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=153341&forum_id=2#2400668) |
|
Date: March 24th, 2005 10:53 PM Author: Marvelous territorial stage Umm, no, you *REALLY* don't get it.
Let me give a simple example. School A has 70% employed in Region X and School B has 50% employed in Region X, and both have a class size of 100. To make it even more simple, let's assume that all these guys are working at the exact same firm, and that firm's Vault*PPP composite comes out to 100.
NOTE: These are unadjusted figures, so in this case, a smaller TQS means greater placement.
Scenario 1: Have Unemployed = 250
School A's Region X TQS would be:
(70*100 + 30*250)/100 = (7000+7500)/100 = 145
School B's Region X TQS would be:
(50*100 + 50*250)/100 = (5000+12500)/100 = 175
Okay, so School A places better than School B. Now, let's change 250 to 2500:
School A's Region X TQS would be:
(70*100 + 30*2500)/100 = (7000+75000)/100 = 820
School B's Region X TQS would be:
(50*100 + 50*2500)/100 = (5000+125000)/100 = 1300
SCHOOL A WILL STILL BE RANKED HIGHER THAN SCHOOL B. Nothing changes. It doesn't matter whether you use 250, 2500, 250000000000, 227, or 892... Just as long as the number is greater than 200, you'll get the same set of ordinal rankings. John Marshall doesn't benefit or suffer depending on what value U has -- since the U value is the same for *every* school. |
|
Date: March 24th, 2005 11:45 PM Author: Charismatic Filthy Theatre Can you easily modify the U and have the tables regenerate? I'd bet you good money that if you changed the U to 10,000, that there wouldn't be a TQS table with more than 40 schools where the order would not be affected. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=153341&forum_id=2#2401135) |
|
Date: March 24th, 2005 11:58 PM Author: Charismatic Filthy Theatre That's only true if both schools have the same composite firm ranking. Assume school B sends all grads to a firm with a composite of 25:
School A's Region X TQS would be:
(70*100 + 30*250)/100 = (7000+7500)/100 = 145
School B's Region X TQS would be:
(50*25 + 50*250)/100 = (1250+12500)/100 = 12750/100 = 127.5
Okay, so School A places better than School B. Now, let's change 250 to 2500:
School A's Region X TQS would be:
(70*100 + 30*2500)/100 = (7000+75000)/100 = 820
School B's Region X TQS would be:
(50*25 + 50*2500)/100 = (1250+125000)/100 = 126250/100 = 1262.5
You are a tool.
|
|
Date: March 25th, 2005 12:27 AM Author: Marvelous territorial stage Hmm, you're right. No clue how I could've missed this. However it seems like the error isn't that big of a deal, certainly not enough to make the whole thing "useless." Looks like it only changed ordinal positions very slightly when there were big bunches of schools.
Any suggestions on how to fix this?
With 250:
F, L, B, D, A, K, C, J, I, N, M, E, H, G, P, O
60.82F 81.29L 93.42B 95.27D 110.12A 130.03K 137.07C 138.97J 139.27I 148.51N 149.37M 152.19E 154.40H 172.98G 179.17P 206.00O
With 2500:
F, L, B, D, A, I, J, K, C, H, N, M, E, G, P, O
182.58F 311.38L 540.75B 548.99D 758.48A 904.87I 956.03J 1022.50K 1032.77C 1156.03H 1162.14N 1184.81M 1279.04E 1542.73G 1602.95P 1883.96O |
|
Date: March 25th, 2005 12:41 AM Author: Charismatic Filthy Theatre Fuck you. I pointed it out twice and you called me an idiot. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=153341&forum_id=2#2401740) |
|
Date: March 25th, 2005 12:43 AM Author: Marvelous territorial stage Fine, be like that.
EDIT: Upon much closer reflection, it actually looks like this isn't even that big of a deal -- in practice, all this really does is bring about very slight changes at the margins that only have an effect on ordinal rank, but negligible impact on absolutes. I'll look into seeing if I can come up with a more efficient formula that minimizes this, but honestly it really doesn't seem like it's necessary since the only schools this would have a noticable effect on are lower ranked schools, and those weren't even used in the regression anyway. |
|
Date: March 25th, 2005 1:19 PM Author: Charismatic Filthy Theatre That's not an apology either.
The fact that you fail to recognize the effects your variable have on the TQS scores indicates that you have no idea what the TQS measures. You just cobbled together an opaque formula because you wanted to use regression analysis. TQS score effectively means nothing. Maybe try including natural logs or something, that would look impressive.
You say that ". . . the only schools this would have a noticable effect on are lower ranked schools, and those weren't even used in the regression anyway." Do you say which schools you used in the regression in the study? Didn't you criticize Leiter for arbitrarily limiting his study to the schools he considered national? Isn't what you're doing equally aribitrary and not even disclosed?
|
|
Date: March 26th, 2005 12:20 AM Author: sooty hell milk Umm, no, you *REALLY* don't get it. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=153341&forum_id=2#2409680) |
|
Date: August 3rd, 2007 4:42 AM Author: comical pungent lay messiness wtf? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=153341&forum_id=2#8466385) |