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Libtertarianism really died out in the US, didn't it?
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Date: March 20th, 2018 4:35 PM Author: razzmatazz menage did anyone even go to "libertycon" this year? it seems like most self-described "libertarians" circa 2008-2012 have moved on to other ideologies. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3923884&forum_id=2#35646908) |
Date: March 20th, 2018 4:38 PM Author: Cocky indigo ape Yeah I wonder why it boiled up during that specific timeframe. We even lost our board libertarian autists, or at least they've slunk back into the shadows and put their libertarian glossaries away. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3923884&forum_id=2#35646941) |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 4:40 PM Author: razzmatazz menage it was a meme, and probably a "safe" ideological channel promoted by those in power to shunt away post-financial crisis anger into a movement that was incapable of going anywhere. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3923884&forum_id=2#35646960) |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 4:44 PM Author: heady seedy location (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3923884&forum_id=2#35646988) |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 4:52 PM Author: Cocky indigo ape Yeah I guess it sparked up after 2008 when everyone was arguing if it was capitalism or the state that caused the crash. I guess it fizzled out with Occupy. Everyone got bored of arguing because the world didn't end. College libertarians who came of age during that time became properly socialized and the left wing kids returned to their shitty art projects or sold out and got corporate jobs. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3923884&forum_id=2#35647053) |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 5:25 PM Author: Lemon thriller dilemma Oof. Deadly accurate. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3923884&forum_id=2#35647293) |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 5:36 PM Author: cordovan swashbuckling kitchen I don't disagree. The libertarian and green parties both exist as "safe alternatives" to the two-party system. Everyone knows they have zero chance of ever upsetting the system and that most that support them will eventually give up and enter the traditional fold. This is why the parties are far more worried about things like the alt-right, which has a real chance of being a game changer (introducing European style nationalism to the US). (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3923884&forum_id=2#35647380) |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 10:14 PM Author: Low-t goal in life You guys were saying the same shit about the last iteration of this, the 'Dark Enlightenment.' That too turned out to be an obsese neckbeard dork convention with zero broad appeal. But it's good to have dreams! (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3923884&forum_id=2#35649400) |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 10:17 PM Author: cordovan swashbuckling kitchen Link to mainstream dark enlightenment politicians? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3923884&forum_id=2#35649421) |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 10:49 PM Author: Low-t goal in life Link to mainstream 'Alt Right' politicians, elected or electable?
And LOL, don't even start insisting Trump counts. The politician needs to openly identify with some kind of ethno-nationalism point of view because you have to crawl through endless bullshit to construct an 'Alt Right' point of view that ignores the white Christian nation stuff and few-to-zero serious 'Alt Righters' don't have a position on it. |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 11:50 PM Author: cordovan swashbuckling kitchen We were comparing to libertarians, not alt-right.
Also, "alt-right" is basically normal nationalist parties in much of Europe. |
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Date: March 21st, 2018 1:03 AM Author: racy wrinkle abode hard to figure out where to start with how retarded this is. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3923884&forum_id=2#35650571) |
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Date: March 21st, 2018 3:16 AM Author: frisky swollen shitlib (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3923884&forum_id=2#35650934) |
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Date: March 21st, 2018 3:44 AM Author: beady-eyed peach old irish cottage preventive strike "Link to mainstream 'Alt Right' politicians, elected or electable?"
https://www.whitehouse.gov/people/donald-j-trump/ |
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Date: March 21st, 2018 10:19 AM Author: talented yellow twinkling uncleanness sneaky criminal (extremely accurate masterd00d) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3923884&forum_id=2#35651739) |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 4:46 PM Author: cordovan swashbuckling kitchen Well, I think the open borders is what really killed it right now. Traditionally, libertarians were all for free labor/open borders but they didn't account for illegals pouring in, working with libs to get amnestied and then destroying the country. There was absolutely no libertarian solution to this problem, so libertarians inevitably shifted either into "fuck that, we have to save the country" (Republicans) or "so let the country die" (shitlibs). (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3923884&forum_id=2#35647000) |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 4:49 PM Author: Thirsty sable garrison ratface (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3923884&forum_id=2#35647027) |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 4:49 PM Author: Big disturbing azn pit CR (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3923884&forum_id=2#35647031) |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 4:51 PM Author: Pearly Point Bbw (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3923884&forum_id=2#35647046) |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 4:51 PM Author: Buck-toothed Halford Stage (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3923884&forum_id=2#35647048) |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 4:52 PM Author: razzmatazz menage their "solutions" to this issue are completely inane. "well, if all land were privately-owned, and we scrapped every single social welfare program, then..." (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3923884&forum_id=2#35647058) |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 4:54 PM Author: cordovan swashbuckling kitchen I think enough libertarians realized this was bullshit that the ideology effectively dissolved. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3923884&forum_id=2#35647072) |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 4:57 PM Author: heady seedy location If this thesis is true, it only proves there was never a critical mass of principled right-wing libertarians to begin with. "True" right-wing libertarians don't care if "the country" collapses; a collapse of state power would in their eyes remove the key impediment to the success of the genuinely excellent. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3923884&forum_id=2#35647097) |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 5:02 PM Author: Cocky indigo ape Yeah they didn't want to be associated with the religious right, neoconservatives, social democrats, or more abstract left wing positions like the chomsky worshippers and libertarianism looked like a coherent program with a patina of sobriety and nobility. The axioms themselves were not deeply held just interesting to fuck around with on a purely intellectual level, which is why autists were attracted to it. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3923884&forum_id=2#35647132) |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 5:20 PM Author: cordovan swashbuckling kitchen There's truth to this. It was always a rejection of a bunch of obviously self-serving ideologies that were the other options of the time. It offered the notion of picking and choosing "the best" from the major ideologies while offering something that was actually more ideologically consistent (we just want more freedom for everyone). The fact that for most it didn't become overly dogmatic was actually a plus. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3923884&forum_id=2#35647246) |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 5:06 PM Author: cordovan swashbuckling kitchen You're confusing libertarianism with anarchism. Libertarians generally believe that you need a solid, functional government that enacts libertarian policies and maintains law and order, basic infrastructure, etc.
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Date: March 20th, 2018 5:17 PM Author: heady seedy location Open borders isn't incompatible with any of those things. To a right-wing libertarian, "law and order" only means enforcement of private property rights--not enforcement of arbitrary immigration laws. I don't see a viable connection between open borders and public infrastructure maintenance either: right-wing libertarians would say that market mechanisms like toll roads will invariably ensure adequate infrastructure spending. Of course, right-wing libertarianism is not even a serious ideology to begin with, so maybe these points are irrelevant.
Also, anarchism is perfectly fine with rules and infrastructure investment, etc., so long as the means are genuinely cooperative. |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 5:23 PM Author: cordovan swashbuckling kitchen "Open borders isn't incompatible with any of those things"
As I said, this is exactly why libertarianism ceased to exist.
"Also, anarchism is perfectly fine with rules and infrastructure investment, etc., so long as the means are genuinely cooperative."
That actually is libertarianism, at least if you mean that there has to be a government that administers these rules. Anarchism means no government. You can adopt the notion of self-regulation without government but it doesn't pass the straight face test anymore than the libertarian solutions to the open border problem. |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 5:42 PM Author: heady seedy location I think anarchism is viable but would require non-anarchist means at the outset.
The only way I see a principled right-wing libertarian now supporting the alt-right due to open borders is as a temporary marriage of convenience. They must believe that immigration has to be halted now, not because "the country" will be destroyed ethnically, culturally, or religiously, but because there is a clear and present danger that any further immigration will cause the political system to pass the point of no return so far as the future viability of libertarian policies are concerned.
The problem is that this alliance cannot be a temporary stopgap measure. As capitalism continues to ravage the Third World (consider increasing environmental disasters owing to global warming), the pressures of immigration will only grow. Libertarianism is dead. |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 5:45 PM Author: cordovan swashbuckling kitchen "I think anarchism is viable"
LOL, then you're not very bright. Put it in the bucket of other shit that has no history of ever actually working (like Communism). Full stop. If you actually study history and look at humanity you'll realize why this is guaranteed to be the case. |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 5:24 PM Author: scarlet messiness (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3923884&forum_id=2#35647285) |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 4:59 PM Author: Milky Candlestick Maker Kitty Cat titmfcr (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3923884&forum_id=2#35647109) |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 5:08 PM Author: Histrionic Drab Selfie (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3923884&forum_id=2#35647174) |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 8:24 PM Author: gaped flatulent cumskin lol
false |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 9:24 PM Author: cordovan swashbuckling kitchen You're free to present an actual argument. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3923884&forum_id=2#35648996) |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 10:25 PM Author: gaped flatulent cumskin See below. Gary Johnson actually did ok in 2016. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3923884&forum_id=2#35649494) |
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Date: March 21st, 2018 10:17 AM Author: outnumbered hell death wish No he didn't. He didn't come close to winning. And people just voted for him because they didn't like Hillary or Donald. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3923884&forum_id=2#35651729) |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 9:20 PM Author: House-broken Weed Whacker There was a consistent libertarian solution: the Dubai option. Millions and millions of non-citizen coolie labourers that you're allowed to treat like shit, they can't vote, don't have unions or much legal protections, etc. Basically the status quo with illegal immigrant workers, but legitimised and expanded hugely.
Some of the really hardcore open borders libertarians are explicitly okay with this (e.g. Bryan Caplan) but normal libertarian-minded people don't actually want to live in a society like that. |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 9:23 PM Author: cordovan swashbuckling kitchen I think most libertarians are theoretically fine with this but acknowledge that libs would find a way to amnesty them all and fuck everyone. In any event, this is a non-option as long as birthright citizenship remains.
By the way, I'm perfectly happy "living in a society like that" and am fine with that solution, were it actually viable (I don't think it is). |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 10:12 PM Author: Low-t goal in life Excuse me, but Lawman8 is an avowed libertarian or at least believes that market solutions ought to be in place for most everything relating to governance.
He's the acknowledged leader of XO and one of the smartest people in this den of frauds and liars, so I think you probably owe him an apology at this point. |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 4:38 PM Author: Concupiscible useless national Rand Paul's neighbor jumping him was the last ember of that flame going out. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3923884&forum_id=2#35646942) |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 4:43 PM Author: cordovan swashbuckling kitchen I think libertarianism is an inherently optimistic ideology. It is based on the idea that if you let people do what they want, they will generally for a variety of reasons behave decently and act in their own self-interest, which includes not destroying the society they live in. We've seen over the past decade or so that this is laughably wrong. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3923884&forum_id=2#35646978) |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 5:06 PM Author: scarlet messiness Libertarians believe that races are all equal (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3923884&forum_id=2#35647155) |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 5:07 PM Author: Buck-toothed Halford Stage (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3923884&forum_id=2#35647165) |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 5:10 PM Author: Histrionic Drab Selfie Yup (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3923884&forum_id=2#35647184) |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 4:43 PM Author: Thirsty sable garrison ratface most libertarians finally figured out that "libertarian" society doesn't work when the majority of your population is < 100 IQ retards from 3rd world countries and women who are content to leech off the system indefinitely
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Date: March 20th, 2018 4:49 PM Author: Stimulating Stubborn Parlour Associate (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3923884&forum_id=2#35647033) |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 4:50 PM Author: cordovan swashbuckling kitchen To be fair, the world in which libertarianism was popular didn't look like that. This becoming our dystopian reality is what killed it. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3923884&forum_id=2#35647038) |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 5:07 PM Author: scarlet messiness (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3923884&forum_id=2#35647162) |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 4:51 PM Author: twinkling haunted graveyard (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3923884&forum_id=2#35647041) |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 5:07 PM Author: scarlet messiness (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3923884&forum_id=2#35647160) |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 5:10 PM Author: Histrionic Drab Selfie (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3923884&forum_id=2#35647186) |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 9:36 PM Author: brindle library (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3923884&forum_id=2#35649086) |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 9:40 PM Author: Godawful Embarrassed To The Bone Hairy Legs why would that affect a libertarian society? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3923884&forum_id=2#35649111) |
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Date: March 21st, 2018 1:31 AM Author: Supple Idea He Suggested (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3923884&forum_id=2#35650721) |
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Date: March 27th, 2018 11:11 AM Author: Ivory mewling box office the point of libertarianism is that there isn't a system that people can leech off of (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3923884&forum_id=2#35699276) |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 4:51 PM Author: Vibrant Maroon Cuck https://twitter.com/LarryWebsite/status/961746869037740033 (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3923884&forum_id=2#35647043) |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 4:51 PM Author: submissive honey-headed pisswyrm water buffalo they realized that open borders doesn't work when a quarter of the world is muslim (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3923884&forum_id=2#35647047) |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 5:16 PM Author: scarlet messiness (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3923884&forum_id=2#35647218) |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 4:53 PM Author: Fragrant Set libertarianism was always, for the vast majority in it, a refuge position for rightists and nationalists who wanted a political program that gave them some plausible deniability. they were socially conservative but not SOCIAL CONSERVATIVES so they claimed "socially liberal" to try and dodge being a REPUBLIKKKAN
when libs started going after that refuge more, and actual crazy social libs started to take over libertarian movement resources, plus nationalism became articulable again, it fell apart. |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 4:56 PM Author: Cocky indigo ape Yeah or more basically they knew libs were nuts and were casting around for something that wasn't retarded Bush neo-conism and libertarianism was an ostensibly "rational" ideology that didn't have any moral stench to it. The specific social prescriptions they got from it were beside the point. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3923884&forum_id=2#35647087) |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 4:56 PM Author: razzmatazz menage the decline has been a sad spectacle. the most notable moment in recent libertarian politics was that disgusting fat fuck with the sloppy nu-male beard stripping on-stage during the last libertarian convention. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3923884&forum_id=2#35647088) |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 5:18 PM Author: scarlet messiness (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3923884&forum_id=2#35647224) |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 4:59 PM Author: Buck-toothed Halford Stage Libertarianism is (was?) also a home to people who were genuinely socially liberal but fiscally conservative.
Now? Sure, in theory, I prefer dem positions on, say, abortion. But it comes packaged with the democrat policy platform of de facto open borders and insane identity politics. I look forward to the democrat party regaining its conscience, because when there's only one political party that supports having a country there's only one choice. |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 5:18 PM Author: scarlet messiness (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3923884&forum_id=2#35647228) |
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Date: March 21st, 2018 1:32 AM Author: Supple Idea He Suggested (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3923884&forum_id=2#35650725) |
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Date: March 21st, 2018 9:57 AM Author: Wonderful irate dysfunction (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3923884&forum_id=2#35651643) |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 5:00 PM Author: cordovan swashbuckling kitchen I don't think that is right. I was in the libertarian crowd in undergrad (I know, big shocker) exactly because I thought social conservatism was dumb as fuck (and still largely do) but thought that lib economics/socialism/identity politics/gun policy/etc. was totally insane.
I do think that even on social issues, we're in a weird place where because libs have won on pretty much everything and are STILL pushing to the left, it is hard to really be left wing on social issues and still hold that the government should be hands off (the fundamentally libertarian position). At this point being left wing on social issues means wanting 5 year olds to get government funded sex change operations, tranny bathrooms, mandating gender neutral pronouns, etc. |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 5:02 PM Author: Buck-toothed Halford Stage (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3923884&forum_id=2#35647126) |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 5:02 PM Author: Thirsty sable garrison ratface lol, can you articulate what exactly about social conservatism you find "dumb as fuck"? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3923884&forum_id=2#35647130) |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 5:11 PM Author: cordovan swashbuckling kitchen Sure. Being anti-abortion is retarded. Mississipi is doing it and is a bigger disaster than ever. Religion in schools, being anti-technology, etc. - all fucking stupid. Back in the day conservatives were pushing for removal of violence from video games/TV, removing artwork that was "offensive" to "Judeo-Christian" values, etc. Other than abortion, most of these issues aren't relevant today, which is another reason why libertarianism has died out.
We're also in a position where you're a "social conservative" because you think you should be able to say that trannies are fucked in the head without being hit with a hate crime, so that has also thrown a wrench in this.
Seriously, most kids who would have been libertarians in the past are just alt right types now. |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 5:18 PM Author: Thirsty sable garrison ratface yeah i was curious what relevant "socially conservative" positions you found stupid, but it was all the usual suspects that haven't been relevant for a long time
i agree with you on abortion - at this point, being anti-abortion is just an indication that a person is dumb and clueless about the world |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 5:24 PM Author: cordovan swashbuckling kitchen Well look, like I said, libertarianism made a lot of sense during the time it was popular given what the conservative and liberal positions of the time were. Today it has no real relevance so it died out. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3923884&forum_id=2#35647286) |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 5:04 PM Author: Fragrant Set college libertarians are not representative of shit, most libertarians were MC ARE COUNTRY types, just not very religious. Tea Party more representative of libertarian demographics than some kids masturbating to Chicago school econ at Brown.
even the Ron Paul surge didn't change this |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 5:12 PM Author: cordovan swashbuckling kitchen Early Tea Party, yes. But then it got hijacked by Christian Right types like Palin.
I think both groups (college libertarians and middle american libertarians) were legit, but neither survived cultural shifts. |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 5:44 PM Author: boyish hyperventilating stock car public bath >> I do think that even on social issues, we're in a weird place where because libs have won on pretty much everything and are STILL pushing to the left, it is hard to really be left wing on social issues and still hold that the government should be hands off (the fundamentally libertarian position). At this point being left wing on social issues means wanting 5 year olds to get government funded sex change operations, tranny bathrooms, mandating gender neutral pronouns, etc. <<
This is an excellent point. At some point the left went from acceptance and tolerance of certain social issues (get out of gays' bedrooms) to basically removing the concept of gender and harassing pizza parlor owners if they don't want to cater a gay wedding (i.e., from tolerance to control). |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 6:07 PM Author: cordovan swashbuckling kitchen (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3923884&forum_id=2#35647624) |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 5:04 PM Author: heady seedy location 100% correct (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3923884&forum_id=2#35647147) |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 4:55 PM Author: Hairraiser Private Investor Affirmative Action Hoppe is 180 (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3923884&forum_id=2#35647077) |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 4:57 PM Author: razzmatazz menage his ideas are still pretty unrealistic, but at least they were tempered by the fact that he lived around turks, which made him more realistic about border/migration issues. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3923884&forum_id=2#35647102) |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 4:58 PM Author: Hairraiser Private Investor Affirmative Action The issue with libertarianism is that 95% of libertarians are white and the party/all of the think tanks decided to break left in order to draw in more people (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3923884&forum_id=2#35647105) |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 5:01 PM Author: razzmatazz menage does that EVER work? has a movement/organization ever successfully implemented a strategy to stop being "too white" and maintain its existing support while expanding its support outside of its natural base? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3923884&forum_id=2#35647122) |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 5:22 PM Author: scarlet messiness Also curious (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3923884&forum_id=2#35647269) |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 5:39 PM Author: cordovan swashbuckling kitchen Democrats will probably have that pay off for them in the long run. They won't maintain their original base but enough of them that with the demographic shifts (which they helped engineer) they will still end up winning. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3923884&forum_id=2#35647399) |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 5:45 PM Author: boyish hyperventilating stock car public bath cr, this is why the Dems want so many low status voters in the country (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3923884&forum_id=2#35647450) |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 5:46 PM Author: cordovan swashbuckling kitchen Which, coincidentally, have sky-high reproductive rates. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3923884&forum_id=2#35647465) |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 5:03 PM Author: scarlet messiness Had we stuck with Libertarianism past the 70s it would make sense. But we've gone too far down the rabbit hole to "just do markets". (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3923884&forum_id=2#35647134) |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 5:15 PM Author: cordovan swashbuckling kitchen Sort of. The thing that changed, starting the 1980s, was the first mass amnesty of illegals from Latin America. If we did that but with more libertarian policies then we would ultimately still be in the same place we are now. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3923884&forum_id=2#35647213) |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 5:23 PM Author: scarlet messiness Even had we not given them more bennies than those who were already here? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3923884&forum_id=2#35647276) |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 5:27 PM Author: cordovan swashbuckling kitchen It would still have been more profitable for them to be here than back in Mexico, El Salvador, Columbia, Venezuela, Honduras, Haiti, etc. So they would have come. Simple as that. The Republicans would have encouraged it as a cheap labor pool. Democrats would then have realized that this was the demographic silver bullet to make the Republicans a permanent minority party. Add water and fast forward and we're back to where we are today. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3923884&forum_id=2#35647306) |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 5:29 PM Author: razzmatazz menage libtertarians keep getting hung up on "welfare" as the main driver of migration, which is just flat-out false on a global basis. afghans in pakistan, haitians in the DR, bangladeshis in india, sudanese in egypt, sub-saharans in algeria - none of these people get social welfare, and yet, they have flooded over the borders anyway, often with disastrous/destabilizing effects. did the goths and vandals move to the roman empire due to generous social welfare policies? it's just a retarded "counterpoint." (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3923884&forum_id=2#35647321) |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 5:34 PM Author: cordovan swashbuckling kitchen Right. Even without welfare we would be a first world country which would be better to live in than a shitty, unstable third world country. So they would move here. If they didn't have a job then crime would be more profitable too. The incentives skewed in this direction even without welfare coming into the equation. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3923884&forum_id=2#35647360) |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 5:46 PM Author: boyish hyperventilating stock car public bath (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3923884&forum_id=2#35647461) |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 5:07 PM Author: tan mad cow disease police squad I identified as a libertarian in the late 90s, early 2000s. Then I realized how retarded it is. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3923884&forum_id=2#35647166) |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 5:08 PM Author: aqua demanding dingle berry orchestra pit There were never libertarians (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3923884&forum_id=2#35647170) |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 5:16 PM Author: cordovan swashbuckling kitchen vat (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3923884&forum_id=2#35647217) |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 5:37 PM Author: aqua demanding dingle berry orchestra pit Libertarians never accounted for a significant amount of the US population. It's always been an unpopular ideology. The board is imagining some kind of libertarian renaissance that never was. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3923884&forum_id=2#35647388) |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 5:41 PM Author: cordovan swashbuckling kitchen It was always a minority position but it used to be much, much more popular, especially in more educated circles. Ron Paul was actually someone that people cared about. Today no one really thinks of Libertarianism. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3923884&forum_id=2#35647413) |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 5:42 PM Author: razzmatazz menage it surged in popularity for a few years among younger, educated white males, which is an important ideological bloc in terms of things that ultimately get expressed as political policies. but then it fizzled. the point is that libertarianism was capturing more and more of a very select "market," but then instead of making the jump into the mainstream, its market contracted sharply. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3923884&forum_id=2#35647424) |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 5:47 PM Author: aqua demanding dingle berry orchestra pit when do you believe this happened (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3923884&forum_id=2#35647475) |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 5:48 PM Author: cordovan swashbuckling kitchen Between HW Bush and the end of GW Bush. Obama and Trump changed the game. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3923884&forum_id=2#35647488) |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 6:00 PM Author: razzmatazz menage american libertarianism for a while was focused upon ron paul, and his 2008/2012 presidential runs were probably the high-points for the movement. after the romney/obama election, libertarianism gradually began to lose footing to other ideological movements - first, having some of its brighter autists peeled off by "neoreaction"/moldbug stuff, then by the new right-wing nationalist populism that came to be described as the "alt-right." (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3923884&forum_id=2#35647584) |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 6:04 PM Author: cordovan swashbuckling kitchen (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3923884&forum_id=2#35647611) |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 9:57 PM Author: impressive shrine cr presumably most followed the herd and went insane, the rest are internet shitlord guerillas on 4chan, /thedonald and xo raging impotently against the dying of the light |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 5:25 PM Author: scarlet messiness A lot of people are post libertarian in the sense that given their understanding of the world that libertarianism made sense to them. And now with more accurate information, no longer are. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3923884&forum_id=2#35647295) |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 5:32 PM Author: cordovan swashbuckling kitchen To be fair, not just "more accurate" but the facts are fundamentally different. For example, take the matter of religion. In the 1990s, if you're an atheist, agnostic or just not a particularly religious Christian then you really want the Democratic position. They generally supported less religion everywhere, and you were good with that. Meanwhile, the Republicans were the party of Pat Robertson, fighting evolution, banning offensive paintings, banning pornography, etc.
Fast forward to today. Now the Democrats are the party of inviting in radical Muslims, banning offensive paintings, banning pornography, fighting any scientific arguments they don't like, etc. Meanwhile, supporting the currently more moderate Christianity of the Republican party is far preferable. |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 6:08 PM Author: Rusted Blathering Hominid https://politics.theonion.com/l-a-efficiency-chosen-as-site-of-2000-libertarian-conv-1819565649 (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3923884&forum_id=2#35647630) |
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Date: March 21st, 2018 1:46 PM Author: outnumbered hell death wish 180 (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3923884&forum_id=2#35653157) |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 8:28 PM Author: gaped flatulent cumskin Libertarians lost any sort of ideological credibility with their inevitable support of Republicans no matter what the issue.
All libertarians do now is bitch about socialists |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 8:39 PM Author: heady seedy location tbf, that's really all they ever did (Hayek) (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3923884&forum_id=2#35648667) |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 9:18 PM Author: cordovan swashbuckling kitchen Counter-example: abortion. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3923884&forum_id=2#35648954) |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 9:21 PM Author: Godawful Embarrassed To The Bone Hairy Legs hmmm. since democrats hold zero positions that aren't socialist, libertarians still have the ideological credibility, i guess (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3923884&forum_id=2#35648973) |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 9:14 PM Author: Godawful Embarrassed To The Bone Hairy Legs enough straw men in this thread to feed every cow in california (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3923884&forum_id=2#35648914) |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 10:50 PM Author: Low-t goal in life LOL, classic. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3923884&forum_id=2#35649672) |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 9:40 PM Author: Flickering coffee pot Libertarianism is as unworkable as communism. Both start with the flawed premise that economics is paramount. Really politics is Paramount, something that was understood for thousands of years. Economics can be understood as patronage from this perspective. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3923884&forum_id=2#35649113) |
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Date: March 21st, 2018 12:54 AM Author: Big disturbing azn pit Libertarians have trouble explaining away the origin of property rights. That throws a serious wrench into their premises.
Their vision makes more sense if everyone starts with a pre-allocated fair amount of property, but because the government originated the existing property rights it is unclear how to reach a fair initial allocation to start the Libertarian utopia. |
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Date: March 21st, 2018 12:56 AM Author: cordovan swashbuckling kitchen What? You must be a Communist because pretty much anything else starts with what you probably perceive as an "unfair" initial allocation. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3923884&forum_id=2#35650518) |
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Date: March 21st, 2018 1:08 AM Author: Big disturbing azn pit Most non-Libertarian theories are comfortable with some level of state economic coercion.
In Libertarianism (and in the related anarco-capitalism), the philosophy opposes state economic coercion. That resistance is difficult to reconcile with an initial state of state-allocated property. |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 9:59 PM Author: Nudist Opaque Cruise Ship Mexican I basically identified as a libertarian until I grew up and realized how critical having a well defined culture and identity are to a healthy society. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3923884&forum_id=2#35649232) |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 10:11 PM Author: boyish hyperventilating stock car public bath cr (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3923884&forum_id=2#35649371) |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 10:24 PM Author: gaped flatulent cumskin Gary Johnson did significantly better in 2016 than he did in 2012 and better still than Bob Barr did in 2008.
All you psuedo libertarians are talking about a movement that never actually advocated for the libertarianism, but the conservatism that seemed the most viable alternative to Bush-era globalist, neoconservatism. When Trump comes along, you jumped ship to his populist nonsense because that seemed more likely to succeed. |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 10:29 PM Author: boyish hyperventilating stock car public bath Gary Johnson didn't do better in 2016 in terms of getting support for the libertarian ideology. GJ isn't a libertarian in the ideological sense and neither were most of his voters, who voted for him as a protest vote more than anything. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3923884&forum_id=2#35649530) |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 10:30 PM Author: cordovan swashbuckling kitchen "Gary Johnson did significantly better in 2016 than he did in 2012 and better still than Bob Barr did in 2008."
That is because a larger part of the country was simply unhappy with either choice in 2016. Bob Barr was a no-name and at least everyone knew who Gary Johnson was. So this isn't surprising.
"All you psuedo libertarians are talking about a movement that never actually advocated for the libertarianism, but the conservatism that seemed the most viable alternative to Bush-era globalist, neoconservatism. When Trump comes along, you jumped ship to his populist nonsense because that seemed more likely to succeed."
You're shitlib, we get it. No, we jumped ship to Trump because his message resonated with us, our lives, the nation's problems, etc. Simply put, the primary issue wasn't "we need to legalize weed" or whatever. It is a fundamental culture war and demographic shift that threatens to move the US to left wing authoritarianism. Also, to the extent many were voting libertarian because they hated both mainstream parties, Trump wasn't a mainstream candidate. |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 10:57 PM Author: razzmatazz menage libertarians were with ron paul, not barr/johnson. johnson isn't even much of a doctrinal libertarian anyway ("bake the damn cake," etc.). (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3923884&forum_id=2#35649730) |
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Date: March 21st, 2018 12:56 AM Author: cordovan swashbuckling kitchen (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3923884&forum_id=2#35650521) |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 10:26 PM Author: mauve trailer park their obsession w/ pot fucked them over (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3923884&forum_id=2#35649500) |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 10:33 PM Author: cordovan swashbuckling kitchen I don't know if this is fair. Fighting drugs and prostitution are two extremely expensive and stupid efforts that the government engages in. They go overboard with embracing pothead culture (which is SPS) but I'd rather decriminalize than go all out war on drugs as we've been doing. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3923884&forum_id=2#35649558) |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 11:08 PM Author: abusive meetinghouse mood LJL you just proved his point. How did you think sharing your opinion that drugs should be legal would counter his point that libertarians became too obsessed with legalizing pot? (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3923884&forum_id=2#35649825) |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 11:52 PM Author: cordovan swashbuckling kitchen I'm not obsessed at all with it. I'm one of the few posters that has never tried pot a single time in his life. Potheads annoy the piss out of me too. Nevertheless, even I have sympathy for the libertarian position when much of the alternative seems to be a ridiculous war on drugs. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3923884&forum_id=2#35650189) |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 11:11 PM Author: Light Comical Hissy Fit House How so? The libertarian position is beginning to win (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3923884&forum_id=2#35649857) |
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Date: March 20th, 2018 11:12 PM Author: abusive meetinghouse mood Because its what the "party" became mainly associated with. It makes it seem juvenile. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3923884&forum_id=2#35649867) |
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Date: March 21st, 2018 1:27 AM Author: Stirring deep school Tough to call the ideology dead. I think men constantly cycle between centralized and decentralized systems of organization as required by current conditions.
Persians -> Delian League Aequi -> Cincinnatus Muslims in Iberian peninsula -> Christian Monarchies Peace and stability in 13 Colonies post 7 years war -> Revolution Peace and stability in US post Civil War -> Industrial Age Great Depression & WWII -> All of FDR's Shit
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Date: March 21st, 2018 3:35 AM Author: startled resort It was an ideology that was proven simplistic and wrong. There are other ideologies now that have yet to be proven simplistic and wrong. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3923884&forum_id=2#35650950) |
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Date: March 21st, 2018 10:08 AM Author: Mentally impaired startling clown voyeur The failure of unregulated markets during the subprime collapse made it hard to be libertarian. Those markets had the government's fingerprints all over them but the failures of America's captains of industry, and their reliance on bailouts to survive, made it clear that there was very little John Galt in any of them. Libertarians are also big on open borders and free trade. Trump murdered them in their sleep as a side effect of schlonging Crooked Hill. (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3923884&forum_id=2#35651692) |
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Date: March 27th, 2018 11:10 AM Author: trip metal state cr '08-09 did it in (http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=3923884&forum_id=2#35699264) |