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Hylton Rankings: yea or nay?

The profs are getting excited about "Hylton Rankings,&q...
girlylawgirl  04/12/06
Due to the correlation between lsat midpoint and the faculty...
miketyson  04/12/06
"I can see why professors don't care what judges and la...
usernametaken  04/12/06
I can't disagree with all your points, and for the top schoo...
girlylawgirl  04/12/06
Not Credited. There was a top 10 long before there was a ...
trendspotter  04/14/06
yeah, michigan used to be a t3 school depending on who you t...
Marty Lipton  04/14/06
Yup, it was almost universally a top 3 school for decades, a...
trendspotter  04/14/06
Interesting that the T14 is still the t14
JoseArcadio  04/12/06
Yes. But one of those sites shows that a few schools, like ...
girlylawgirl  04/12/06
I like it. The reputation elements are far too weighted in t...
usernametaken  04/12/06
this is still bullshit. any ranking that takes into accou...
wanksta  04/12/06
In other words, your school has a relatively weak overall re...
trendspotter  04/14/06
It's no Ciolli Rankings, that's for sure.
Brined Turkey  04/12/06
Seems to correlate much better with this board's perception ...
Spanex  04/12/06
of course this board's perceptions of prestige are worth shi...
wanksta  04/12/06
In other words, your school has a relatively low level of pr...
trendspotter  04/14/06
no, it's more like a group of 0Ls don't know shit.
wanksta  04/14/06
Surprisingly, their view tends to pattern the view of the na...
trendspotter  04/14/06
can someone explain this to me: "I have recalculated t...
Marty Lipton  04/14/06
I like this, except that the lawyer/judge ratings should be ...
trendspotter  04/14/06
j
ishiki  04/14/06
"True, but if employers opinions are so closely reflect...
girlylawgirl  04/14/06
Excellent points. *retreats into the darkness*
ishiki  04/14/06


Poast new message in this thread




Date: April 12th, 2006 10:14 AM
Author: girlylawgirl

The profs are getting excited about "Hylton Rankings," which are USNWR rankings stripped of everything except LSATs and professor "peer assessment." Yea or nay?

I can see why professors don't care what judges and lawyers think, but as a student I do care. I don't care very much what the professors think of each other. They can have their own popularity polls, but it's the firms and judges who make the hiring decisions for which I'm going into debt. So I vote "nay."

http://www.elsblog.org/

http://lawprofessors.typepad.com/property/2006/04/the_hylton_rank.html

http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/2006/04/us_news_ranking.html

http://www.elsblog.org/the_empirical_legal_studi/files/the_us_news_and_world_report_rankings_without_the_clutter__2_.pdf

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=398460&forum_id=2#5567158)




Date: April 12th, 2006 11:28 AM
Author: miketyson

Due to the correlation between lsat midpoint and the faculty assessment rankings (.91) I think I can overlook the fact that usnews peer assessment scores only survey the five most recently tenured faculty...jeez those usnews rankings suck.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=398460&forum_id=2#5567617)




Date: April 12th, 2006 11:45 AM
Author: usernametaken

"I can see why professors don't care what judges and lawyers think, but as a student I do care. I don't care very much what the professors think of each other. They can have their own popularity polls, but it's the firms and judges who make the hiring decisions for which I'm going into debt. So I vote "nay.""

But I can see why you'd strip them out. Lawyers and judges base their opinions on the school's ranking. The rankings are based on the lawyers and judges opinion. Hence why the T14 is so static. It's a chicken and egg situation. If new rankings were adopted and popularized tomorrow because the USNEWS magazine went bust and stopped publishing, lawyers and judges would pretty soon change their hiring opinions to match whatever the new rankings told them. It's kind of a lame measurement.



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=398460&forum_id=2#5567763)




Date: April 12th, 2006 12:22 PM
Author: girlylawgirl

I can't disagree with all your points, and for the top schools it makes no difference at all.

But take a school like San Diego. Its Hylton is way above its USNWR. But the faculty aren't doing the hiring that matters. So shouldn't most students pick a school with better lawyer evals? True, is SD keeps going this way, eventually the lawyers will view it as higher ranked, but why go into debt on the assumption that your JD will appreciate over the next decade? Or on the assumption that the occasional professor you meet with think better of you?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=398460&forum_id=2#5568037)




Date: April 14th, 2006 1:07 PM
Author: trendspotter

Not Credited.

There was a top 10 long before there was a USNews ranking (or any ranking) Law school reputation goes back long before USNews, and firms rely far more on long-term reputation than USNews when hiring.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=398460&forum_id=2#5579743)




Date: April 14th, 2006 1:08 PM
Author: Marty Lipton

yeah, michigan used to be a t3 school depending on who you talk to and how old they are

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=398460&forum_id=2#5579754)




Date: April 14th, 2006 1:11 PM
Author: trendspotter

Yup, it was almost universally a top 3 school for decades, and was ranked that high in the first USNews rank (1987).

And its reputation ratings usually remain in the top 5 or 6, regardless of overall rank.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=398460&forum_id=2#5579775)




Date: April 12th, 2006 10:48 AM
Author: JoseArcadio

Interesting that the T14 is still the t14

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=398460&forum_id=2#5567357)




Date: April 12th, 2006 10:50 AM
Author: girlylawgirl

Yes. But one of those sites shows that a few schools, like San Diego, benefit enormously from Hylton Rankings, and some are hurt. Like you say, though, the top is still the top.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=398460&forum_id=2#5567373)




Date: April 12th, 2006 11:40 AM
Author: usernametaken

I like it. The reputation elements are far too weighted in the USNEWS for a balanced, accurate model. Th eresult of which is that apart from the top 25 schools, every other shcool chunks into massive 25-way ties. At least with these rankings, the ties are reduced to 1 or 2 schools at most.



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=398460&forum_id=2#5567719)




Date: April 12th, 2006 11:55 AM
Author: wanksta

this is still bullshit.

any ranking that takes into account usnews' unreliable reputation rankings is utter bullshit. "reputation" would be better measured by clerkship placement and elite firm placement.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=398460&forum_id=2#5567841)




Date: April 14th, 2006 1:08 PM
Author: trendspotter

In other words, your school has a relatively weak overall reputation.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=398460&forum_id=2#5579750)




Date: April 12th, 2006 12:01 PM
Author: Brined Turkey (Cunning Stuntz)

It's no Ciolli Rankings, that's for sure.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=398460&forum_id=2#5567882)




Date: April 12th, 2006 12:02 PM
Author: Spanex

Seems to correlate much better with this board's perception of prestige than USN.

The delineations at the T6 and T14 marks seem to justify their existance - 2 and 3 point drop-offs, respectively. There's fairly tight clusterings within those tiers (T6 within a 6 point spread, T7-14 within a 6.5 point spread). Also a significant HY v. rest-of-T14 gap (3 points).

Lastly, the biggest gains among the T14 were H (3 -> 1) and G (14 -> 11), demonstrative of the bias against larger schools in USN methodology.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=398460&forum_id=2#5567889)




Date: April 12th, 2006 12:06 PM
Author: wanksta

of course this board's perceptions of prestige are worth shit, but that's another story.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=398460&forum_id=2#5567920)




Date: April 14th, 2006 1:09 PM
Author: trendspotter

In other words, your school has a relatively low level of prestige vs. comparable schools.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=398460&forum_id=2#5579760)




Date: April 14th, 2006 1:12 PM
Author: wanksta

no, it's more like a group of 0Ls don't know shit.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=398460&forum_id=2#5579789)




Date: April 14th, 2006 6:26 PM
Author: trendspotter

Surprisingly, their view tends to pattern the view of the nation's lawyers, judges and academics as well.

However, you are correct that there is little difference between all top schools.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=398460&forum_id=2#5581299)




Date: April 14th, 2006 12:58 PM
Author: Marty Lipton

can someone explain this to me:

"I have recalculated the US News and World Report Ratings using the 2007 data (actually compiled in 2005) for my two categories."

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=398460&forum_id=2#5579678)




Date: April 14th, 2006 1:12 PM
Author: trendspotter

I like this, except that the lawyer/judge ratings should be included, as noted.

They key problem with the current USNews system is that peer ratings are weighted much more heavily than practitioner ratings, when the reverse should be the case.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=398460&forum_id=2#5579788)




Date: April 14th, 2006 10:17 PM
Author: ishiki

j

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=398460&forum_id=2#5582750)




Date: April 14th, 2006 10:48 PM
Author: girlylawgirl

"True, but if employers opinions are so closely reflective of the rankings, which most agree they are, then why bother incorporating them at all?"

If true, that argument works equally well to eliminate prof rankings and just use lawyer rankings. But, in fact, while lawyers agree with profs at the top, they disagree elsewhere and sometimes dramatically so. For me, I'd rather know what the lawyers think.

"Also, employer opinions are arguably outdated, as their interaction with graduates could be with those who graduates a decade or more ago... and most would agree that it's where a school is now, not ten years ago, that matters."

They are not "outdated" if that's what lawyers are using today to make the interviewing and hiring decisions that matter to me.

OTOH, if I were shooting for academia, I'd want to know the prof rankings.



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=398460&forum_id=2#5582915)




Date: April 14th, 2006 11:26 PM
Author: ishiki

Excellent points. *retreats into the darkness*

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=398460&forum_id=2#5583149)