Did an actual Jesus (regardless of divinity) actual live and walk the earth?
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Date: August 21st, 2018 10:21 AM Author: slippery copper bawdyhouse
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_World%27s_Sixteen_Crucified_Saviors
Graves, often citing Anacalypsis and other works by Godfrey Higgins (1772–1833) as his source, asserts in the book that many messiah-like "saviors" were crucified on a cross or tree before ascending into heaven.
"One thing is clear — the mythos of the Hindus, the mythos of the Jews and the mythos of the Greeks are all at bottom the same; and what are called their early histories are not histories of humankind, but are contrivances under the appearance of histories to perpetuate doctrines." (Higgins, Anacalypsis)
Here is Graves' main list, arranged chronologically:
Thulis of Egypt, 1700 B. C.[5]
Krishna of India, 1200 B.C.
Crite of Chaldea, 1200 B.C.[6][7]
Atys of Phrygia, 1170 B.C.
Thammuz or Tammuz of Syria, 1160 B.C.
Hesus or Eros 834 B.C.
Bali of Orissa, 725 B.C.[8]
Indra of Thibet (Tibet), 725 B.C.
Iao of Nepaul (Nepal), 622 B.C.[9][10]
Buddha Sakia (Muni) of India, 600 B.C.[11]
Mitra (Mithra) of Persia, 600 B.C.
Alcestos of Euripides, 600 B.C.
Quezalcoatl of Mexico, 587 B.C.
Wittoba of the Bilingonese, 552 B.C.[12]
Prometheus or Æschylus of Caucasus, 547 B.C.
Quirinus of Rome, 506 B.C.
He also lists a number of other holy figures who took the form of men and then ascended into heaven, including:
Salivahana of Bermuda
Zulis or Zhule of Egypt[13]
Osiris of Egypt
Oru of Egypt
Odin of the Scandinavians
Zoroaster of Persia
Baal of Phoenicia
Taut, "the only Begotten of God" of Phoenicia, inventor of letters[14]
Bali of Afghanistan
Xamolxis (Zalmoxis) of Thrace
Zoar of the Bonzes
Adad of Assyria
Deva Tat of Siam (Thailand)
Sammonocadam (Sommona-Codom) of Siam (Thailand)[15]
Alcides of Thebes
Mikado of the Sintoos
Beddru of Japan
Bremrillah of the Druids[16]
Thor son of Odin of the Gauls/Norse
Cadmus of Greece
Hil/Feta of the Mandaites[17]
Gentaut of Mexico[18]
Universal Monarch of the Sibyls
Ischy of Formosa (Taiwan)[19]
Divine Teacher of Plato
Holy One of Xaca[20]
(Fohi) of China
Tien of China
Adonis son of the virgin Io of Greece
Ixion of Rome
Mohamud or Mahomet of Arabia.
The book claims that a number of these deities or god-men shared at least some traits of Jesus as described in the New Testament, drawing the strongest similarities with Krishna. For example, some figures had miraculous or virgin births, were sons of supreme gods, were born on December 25, had stars point to their birthplaces, were visited by shepherds and magi as infants, fled from death as children, exhibited traits of divinity in childhood, spent time in the desert, traveled as they taught, had disciples, performed miracles, were persecuted, were crucified, descended into hell after death, appeared as resurrections or apparitions, or ascended into heaven. Graves also devotes chapters to the pagan roots of baptism and the eucharist, and concludes that Jesus was not a real person.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4056610&forum_id=2#36654274) |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 10:56 AM Author: dark self-centered trailer park
>were born on december 25
this reveals the author as full of shit, though, because everyone knows jesus wasn't born on dec 25 and the religion has literally never claimed so - christmas celebrates christ's birth but was chosen because it fell on a pagan holiday, not because of a belif that jesus was born dec 25
how does someone with good arguments fuck up that badly?
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4056610&forum_id=2#36654470) |
Date: August 20th, 2018 9:50 PM Author: Hilarious federal institution
the evidence for the existence of most figures from that era is patchy. there's no particular reason to single out Jesus as fake, among many other famous figures from classical history who are known and assumed to be real from even less.
notably, I'd say, no early critics of Christianity claimed that Jesus did not actually exist
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4056610&forum_id=2#36651890) |
Date: August 21st, 2018 10:15 AM Author: Buff Pungent Kitchen
it's about as certain as we can be considering the historical evidence available at the time. like others said ITT, evidence for Jesus is as strong as evidence for other historical figures whose existence is rarely questioned.
and the gospels depart strongly from themes in other myths before them. jesus, god incarnate, being tortured and executed would be a very strange place to start for constructing a religion out of thin air.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4056610&forum_id=2#36654228) |
Date: August 21st, 2018 10:19 AM Author: bonkers titillating puppy fat ankles
There are good indications he was real. First, the official story is full of little factoids that are problematic and that no one would make up if they were inventing a story from whole cloth. For example you would not invent the fact that he was from Nazareth, which was a podunk nothing town. If you were making up the story you would just have him be born in Bethlehem.
Another indicator is the way the early churches were apparently established and run. The most compelling explanation for that is that there really was a religious community organized around one guy, close enough in time to that guy's lifetime that we really don't have a better explanation for how they popped up.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4056610&forum_id=2#36654256) |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 10:45 AM Author: Galvanic azure lay feces
if He was real and just fucking nuts, He was nuts in a completely unique way, as in literally a singular figure in all of human history.
poasters ITT like to compare the Jesus myth to other myths, and say that the Gospels are legends. That may be true. But if it's not, and the real Jesus said the things He's purported to say (not even talking about actions/miracles, just statements), then He stands alone in history, claiming in the middle of a bunch of Jews and Romans that he was the literal Son of God, refusing to recant in the face of excruciating torture and death. He created thousands of loyal, believing followers in the span of a few years, despite the audacity of His claims.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4056610&forum_id=2#36654419) |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 11:32 AM Author: razzle library
it's likely that no human being ever claimed to be the son of god at the beginning of Christianity.
you're moving the goal posts, though. the question was whether the claimed revelation of a prophet can quickly give rise to a religious movement with a number of adherents professing similar beliefs, even if the revelation never occurred, and the answer is obviously yes.
nobody is arguing that the history of mormonism and the early Christian church are identical
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4056610&forum_id=2#36654648) |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 12:11 PM Author: Galvanic azure lay feces
"implausible" in the sense that I think they would be just as unlikely to be invented as they would be to have been actually said by Him in the first place. Like the person or people you're claiming had this "revelation" would have to have been batshit insane, both for coming up with such bizarre content but more especially for telling other people about it in such a dangerous climate. So for me, the sheer insanity of it actually leads me more in the direction of believing He said those things. Again, this is evident in the details of the Gospels aside from things Jesus said/did, like the prominence of women in the stories, as I mentioned elsewhere ITT. It's just too out of character for some random ex-Jew to make up.
Okay, if you wanna make the "it was so long ago" argument, consider Buddhism. Virtually everyone accepts Buddha was a real guy, and that it was his revelatory preaching that started Buddhism as a religion. Many early Buddhist texts ascribe physical miracles to him, which you could discount as legends, but you'd still accept it was him who started it all. Why do you think the story of Jesus would be any different? Why this mystery man of whom there is no documentation? Some illiterate Jew who ran and told Peter, who ran and told Paul, and all of a sudden, there's a whole movement of people who believe the true source is a man of their time and place, but who never actually existed? You don't see how that's jumping through hoops?
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4056610&forum_id=2#36654942) |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 10:38 AM Author: slippery copper bawdyhouse
the "Trilemma" is bullshit
A frequent criticism is that Lewis's trilemma depends on the veracity of the scriptural accounts of Jesus's statements and actions. This omits the possibility of those accounts instead being an invention of the early Christian movement, seeking to glorify Jesus.[26] The trilemma rests on the interpretation of New Testament authors' depiction of Jesus: a widespread objection is that the statements by Jesus recorded in the Gospels are being misinterpreted, and do not constitute claims to divinity.[27]
According to Bart D. Ehrman, "there could be a fourth option — legend".[28] According to Ehrman, it is historically inaccurate that Jesus called himself God, so Lewis's premise of accepting that very claim is problematic. N. T. Wright, a leading New Testament scholar, has commented that Lewis's argument, based on a simplistic understanding of incarnation in Judaism, "doesn't work as history, and it backfires dangerously when historical critics question his reading of the Gospels."[29]
Another criticism raised is that Lewis is creating a false trilemma by insisting that only three options are possible.[36] Philosopher John Beversluis comments that "he deprives his readers of numerous alternate interpretations of Jesus that carry with them no such odious implications".[37] For example, it is logically possible for Jesus's claims (if any) as to his divinity to have been merely good-faith mistakes resulting from his sincere efforts at reasoning, as well as for Jesus to have been deluded with respect to the specific issue of his divinity vel non while his faculties of moral reasoning remained intact. Philosopher and theologian William Lane Craig cites this as a reason why he believes it is an unsound argument for Christianity.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4056610&forum_id=2#36654369) |
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Date: August 21st, 2018 11:26 AM Author: chartreuse sinister school cafeteria roast beef
why not Jesus as a Jewish preacher or self-appointed prophet who was legitimately into the isaiah stuff but who was later misunderstood?
To me that is probably what actually happened.
The whole trinity or living god stuff I think is extremely unlikely to have come out of his mouth (and the gospels are weird in how that stuff only comes up here and there).
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4056610&forum_id=2#36654601) |
Date: August 21st, 2018 10:45 AM Author: Territorial stimulating brunch yarmulke
I don't find the evidence all that compelling.
Poasting so I can find this later for scholarship.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4056610&forum_id=2#36654416) |
Date: August 21st, 2018 11:07 AM Author: adventurous ocher useless brakes plaza
MOre likely than not. It's much much easier to have some of the details be based on a real person than just create it out of thin air, and there are some things in the synoptic gospels that they forcememed so that he'd fit in nicely w/ the prophesies about the messiah.
No need to create convoluted shit like that
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4056610&forum_id=2#36654508) |
Date: August 21st, 2018 2:45 PM Author: flesh laughsome generalized bond market
There was a jesus who was a bit of a playboy and was hanged for sorcery. that was a few years before the alleged mythological jesus but it would fit in well with the John Frum hypothesis that seems to make sense.
Keep in mind that a lot of early documentation--anything OPPOSED to the existence of jesus--would have been expurgated fairly early on.
You can see some interesting tension even in the catholic nicene creed about whether he was resurrected or not--"according to the Gospel"--why say "according to the Gospel" at all?
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4056610&forum_id=2#36656160) |
Date: August 31st, 2018 1:00 AM Author: Alcoholic filthy juggernaut
Having witnessed a miracle, and feeling utter terror at the moment, I have no doubt that there are malevolent forces out there. The miracles are not the sticking point for me anymore.
Lord help us if the gods are evil.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4056610&forum_id=2#36719911) |
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