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Why did Lincoln or the Union in general want to keep the South so badly

Why not let them peacefully secede Was it just fort Sumter ...
Flickering beady-eyed selfie goal in life
  08/24/19
wanted more niggers in America
pungent mentally impaired round eye
  08/24/19
Lincoln was a huge fan of the south's most prized culinary c...
Cobalt Market
  08/24/19
...
Brass dashing station digit ratio
  08/24/19
...
lsd
  08/25/19
interesting
Shimmering sandwich
  08/25/19
Honest answer.... probably pride and not wanting to go down ...
Insecure address death wish
  08/24/19
Lincoln is known for the clarity of his writing. He practice...
Milky theatre
  08/25/19
Jews were financing both sides
burgundy odious plaza laser beams
  08/24/19
was there a lot of outside influence from other countries/th...
Flickering beady-eyed selfie goal in life
  08/25/19
Yes There is major scholarship on France and other euro c...
burgundy odious plaza laser beams
  08/25/19
Did they play both sides or mostly the desperate confederacy...
Flickering beady-eyed selfie goal in life
  08/25/19
I think iirc the South was easier to work with or seen as a ...
burgundy odious plaza laser beams
  08/25/19
...
Flickering beady-eyed selfie goal in life
  08/25/19
...
Cobalt Market
  08/25/19
lolwut controlling territory/resources is the name of the g...
amber turdskin
  08/25/19
...
Filthy ratface twinkling uncleanness
  08/25/19
You have to get in the mindset of the people of the time. A ...
Primrose Goyim
  08/25/19
...
Frum exhilarant reading party
  08/25/19
As our resident history scholar, can you opine on Buchanan's...
Cobalt Market
  08/25/19
Lincoln’s most genius act as President was making sure...
Primrose Goyim
  08/25/19
Buchanan was gay, so he's off limits
lake diverse temple
  08/25/19
ty Just started Ken burns and they didn't touch on this (no...
Flickering beady-eyed selfie goal in life
  08/25/19
TBH most Civil War stuff doesn't go over it much at all. You...
Primrose Goyim
  08/25/19
I agree with most of this, except maybe your second bullet. ...
Curious travel guidebook location
  08/25/19
I disagree re: slavery. Certainly some in the South believed...
Primrose Goyim
  08/25/19
I think a lot of it had to do with how the west would be set...
motley alcoholic therapy depressive
  08/25/19
In addition to what others have said, there was a strong rea...
frozen abusive background story
  08/25/19
Yeah I think this is the best high level simple answer. You ...
Curious travel guidebook location
  08/25/19
Pretty much every U.S. policy decision of consequence from t...
frozen abusive background story
  08/25/19
sherman’s march to the sea was too kind by half
mischievous cocky site
  08/25/19
Hey man, what part of Asia is your family from?
Geriatric party of the first part philosopher-king
  08/25/19
...
amber turdskin
  08/25/19
holy shit xoxo wrong and retarded once again who woulda thou...
mischievous cocky site
  08/25/19
Is this J? Because you’re sounding a lot like J so yo...
Geriatric party of the first part philosopher-king
  08/25/19
i don’t know peoples names sorry
mischievous cocky site
  08/25/19
...
Shimmering sandwich
  08/25/19
Best Civil War thread I've seen in a while. Btw, I am Jewish...
green hominid alpha
  08/25/19
...
Curious travel guidebook location
  08/25/19
How about in Montgomery? "In 1844, 23-year-old Henry...
lake diverse temple
  08/25/19
Something like 80% of federal reserves came from the South, ...
Curious travel guidebook location
  08/25/19
Lincoln was a lawyer and as such he understood the meaning o...
Brussels Sprout (Apropos of the Wet Snow)
  08/25/19
Oh he definitely did a few things
Geriatric party of the first part philosopher-king
  08/25/19
Same reason the north wants it now: big booty blondes
Heady carnelian ticket booth
  08/25/19
I'm no expert, but didn't the federal government mostly fina...
trip salmon range azn
  08/25/19
A divided US would never be a world power and that was the g...
Appetizing pisswyrm potus
  08/25/19
good thread, ty
Flickering beady-eyed selfie goal in life
  08/26/19


Poast new message in this thread



Reply

Date: August 24th, 2019 11:49 PM
Author: Flickering beady-eyed selfie goal in life

Why not let them peacefully secede

Was it just fort Sumter that forced their hand

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4330166&forum_id=2#38737804)



Reply

Date: August 24th, 2019 11:50 PM
Author: pungent mentally impaired round eye

wanted more niggers in America

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4330166&forum_id=2#38737808)



Reply

Date: August 24th, 2019 11:55 PM
Author: Cobalt Market

Lincoln was a huge fan of the south's most prized culinary contribution: chicken and waffles. His favorite purveyor was the River Hotel, located in North Carolina. Lincoln so loved their rendition of the dish that he had it brought by stage coach to DC nearly biweekly.

He feared that the secession would lead to an embargo threatening Honest Abe's only vice. Thus he was determined: the Union must be preserved at any cost.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4330166&forum_id=2#38737839)



Reply

Date: August 24th, 2019 11:56 PM
Author: Brass dashing station digit ratio



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4330166&forum_id=2#38737843)



Reply

Date: August 25th, 2019 2:13 AM
Author: lsd



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4330166&forum_id=2#38738182)



Reply

Date: August 25th, 2019 10:16 PM
Author: Shimmering sandwich

interesting

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4330166&forum_id=2#38741732)



Reply

Date: August 24th, 2019 11:57 PM
Author: Insecure address death wish

Honest answer.... probably pride and not wanting to go down as the fool who lost the country

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4330166&forum_id=2#38737849)



Reply

Date: August 25th, 2019 7:31 PM
Author: Milky theatre

Lincoln is known for the clarity of his writing. He practiced Euclidean geometry in his free time, simply to stay clearheaded/uncluttered. His speeches parse easily and serve as good study models, due to his good habits.

I've read a good deal of his writings. One theme that often comes through in his writings is this romanticized obsession with preserving the union. He scarcely explains why its preservation is so important to him. His omission of strong reasoning on the subject is conspicuous and unlike his typical habits of mind.

I haven't read any biographies on him, only what he said about his world in his own words.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4330166&forum_id=2#38740857)



Reply

Date: August 24th, 2019 11:57 PM
Author: burgundy odious plaza laser beams

Jews were financing both sides

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4330166&forum_id=2#38737851)



Reply

Date: August 25th, 2019 12:29 AM
Author: Flickering beady-eyed selfie goal in life

was there a lot of outside influence from other countries/the wealthy? This wasn't discussed much at all from what I remember from school

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4330166&forum_id=2#38737943)



Reply

Date: August 25th, 2019 1:37 AM
Author: burgundy odious plaza laser beams

Yes

There is major scholarship on France and other euro countries profiting off the war iirc

Jackson tried to drive the Jew/Euro influence out that infiltrated in years prior

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4330166&forum_id=2#38738098)



Reply

Date: August 25th, 2019 1:53 AM
Author: Flickering beady-eyed selfie goal in life

Did they play both sides or mostly the desperate confederacy

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4330166&forum_id=2#38738134)



Reply

Date: August 25th, 2019 2:12 AM
Author: burgundy odious plaza laser beams

I think iirc the South was easier to work with or seen as a better long term investment irt infrastructure and material goods

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4330166&forum_id=2#38738179)



Reply

Date: August 25th, 2019 12:59 AM
Author: Flickering beady-eyed selfie goal in life



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4330166&forum_id=2#38738013)



Reply

Date: August 25th, 2019 9:25 AM
Author: Cobalt Market



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4330166&forum_id=2#38738548)



Reply

Date: August 25th, 2019 9:28 AM
Author: amber turdskin

lolwut

controlling territory/resources is the name of the game. you don't just let some people abscond with half your country over hard feelings.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4330166&forum_id=2#38738557)



Reply

Date: August 25th, 2019 6:39 PM
Author: Filthy ratface twinkling uncleanness



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4330166&forum_id=2#38740666)



Reply

Date: August 25th, 2019 9:39 AM
Author: Primrose Goyim

You have to get in the mindset of the people of the time. A few factors stand out:

-Unionists were very proud of America as a free country and an experiment in self-government, and there was a belief that if the Union collapsed into pieces it would show that experiment had failed. That’s a theme you can hear in the Gettysburg Address: “Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation, or any nation so conceived, and so dedicated, can long endure.”

-Decades of the slavery debate had left US politics very embittered, and in the North, even among non-abolitionists, there was tremendous detestation of slaveholding interests as the so-called “Slave Power.” Think of it as the modern RW hatred of, day, George Soros but on steroids. Northerners feared that the Slave Power wanted to undermine liberty, expand slavery, and potentially even enslave white men. Fear of the slave power also made it easier for the North to regard secession itself as illegitimate. Their attitude was in essence that a radical faction had launched a violent takeover of the South. There was reason to believe this, since there reallyWERE attempts to violently overthrow the government in border states, and every state except SouthCaroliba produced a good number of white Unionists.

-Manifest Destiny more generally. America was seen as a providential country destined to spread its kick-ass way of life across an unsettled continent, and the backwards Southerners were violently trying to arrest that.

-And, of course, Fort Sumter did matter. Americans were deeply proud of America and the idea that the rebels had fired upon the flag of the United States created tremendous patriotic fervor.

The thread title references Lincoln, as if the Civil War was all his idea. That’s absurd. The Union didn’t even need a draft for the first two years of the war because volunteer enthusiasm was so high.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4330166&forum_id=2#38738585)



Reply

Date: August 25th, 2019 9:44 AM
Author: Frum exhilarant reading party



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4330166&forum_id=2#38738600)



Reply

Date: August 25th, 2019 9:45 AM
Author: Cobalt Market

As our resident history scholar, can you opine on Buchanan's failure to preserve the Union and prevent the Civil War? Does he receive an unfair share of the blame?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4330166&forum_id=2#38738603)



Reply

Date: August 25th, 2019 9:53 AM
Author: Primrose Goyim

Lincoln’s most genius act as President was making sure the South fired the first shot of the Civil War. In that sense, it’s hard to blame Buchanan for not “doing more” beforehand. If he’d acted aggressively from the get-go he might have lost even more border states and fatally undermined Northern will to fight. Also, a widespread hope at the time was that the crisis was just a recurrence of nullification and the like and eventually the two sides would back down. Buchanan may deserve some blame for not being a visionary political leader who defused the crisis, but he wasn’t a clueless fuckup either. He was given a very bad situation and wasn’t able to fix it.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4330166&forum_id=2#38738620)



Reply

Date: August 25th, 2019 10:27 AM
Author: lake diverse temple

Buchanan was gay, so he's off limits

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4330166&forum_id=2#38738710)



Reply

Date: August 25th, 2019 12:58 PM
Author: Flickering beady-eyed selfie goal in life

ty

Just started Ken burns and they didn't touch on this (not in episode 1 anyway)

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4330166&forum_id=2#38739267)



Reply

Date: August 25th, 2019 5:43 PM
Author: Primrose Goyim

TBH most Civil War stuff doesn't go over it much at all. You really have to read contemporary accounts and sources to notice it.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4330166&forum_id=2#38740512)



Reply

Date: August 25th, 2019 6:38 PM
Author: Curious travel guidebook location

I agree with most of this, except maybe your second bullet. Most of the scholarship I've read was actually surprisingly nuanced re: the slave issue, when you consider only a small fraction of the overall population owned slaves, the educated class in the south started changing their attitudes, the trade was already abolished in 1807 I think it was. Also slave labor was becoming less and less profitable.

I'll have to dig up sources maybe later - but great points about Lincoln's strategy re: goading the first shot and Union enthusiasm.

Also why not mention the most obvious aspect - that the South was paying something like 60-80% share of total federal revenue, and something like 2/3 of that was from tariffs on Southern-produced goods? Hardly a coincidence that South Carolina was state to have major confrontation in 1832 that could've exploded into violence.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4330166&forum_id=2#38740662)



Reply

Date: August 25th, 2019 10:16 PM
Author: Primrose Goyim

I disagree re: slavery. Certainly some in the South believed it was a naturally dying institution, but the leading faction was actually hardening its attitudes on the subject, and becoming MORE avid slavery advocates. That's why they were determined to expand it to new territories, and of course that's why they seceded in the first place. They wouldn't be willing to secede and fight a gruesome war over an institution they though was naturally dying out anyway. If you read Southern scholarship, in the 40s and 50s you start seeing more and more aggressive arguments (including from Alexander Stephens, the CSA's future VP) that slavery is the natural organizing system of humanity and that it should be expanded; George Fitzhugh even overtly argued in favor of enslaving whites.

I don't think the South's share of federal revenue was a critical reason for the North fighting the Civil War, simply because the federal government was so tiny prior to the war itself. A tiny federal government wouldn't be able to drag the far-more-powerful states (not to mention the actual citizenry) into a devastating war for the sake of the 1% of GDP that was going into import tariffs.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4330166&forum_id=2#38741724)



Reply

Date: August 25th, 2019 9:51 AM
Author: motley alcoholic therapy depressive

I think a lot of it had to do with how the west would be settled. The confederate way of life was far more attractive to the territories and they would have joined up if left unfettered. Once that happens then there is a limit on space northerners to move out to, NYC fills up and can't clear out its newcomers to make way for more newcomers, and the ponzi scheme is exposed.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4330166&forum_id=2#38738614)



Reply

Date: August 25th, 2019 10:12 AM
Author: frozen abusive background story

In addition to what others have said, there was a strong realpolitik aspect to it. The longtime US foreign policy goal had been to dominate North America. A hypothetical breakaway Confederate republic would have been a huge threat to the US's national interests. It would have owned the gulf of Mexico and controlled the Mississippi basin. Strong chance that the new Confederate nation would ally itself with Great Britain and it and Canada would sandwich the US. Plus there were many in Confederate politics who had aspirations of annexing Mexico or other latin american nations completely as sort of a transcontinental plantation empire. It would have essentially destroyed the US as the hegemonic power in the Western Hemisphere.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4330166&forum_id=2#38738665)



Reply

Date: August 25th, 2019 6:45 PM
Author: Curious travel guidebook location

Yeah I think this is the best high level simple answer. You had the Federal government's tax revenues composed of ~60-80% revenue from the South, similar percentage of federal spending being done in the North, and combining this fact with imagining a Confederate republic slave power to compete with.....

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4330166&forum_id=2#38740686)



Reply

Date: August 25th, 2019 7:32 PM
Author: frozen abusive background story

Pretty much every U.S. policy decision of consequence from the founding to the Civil War is best understood in the context of "keep (or push) the European powers off the continent." Westward expansion and the war of 1812, Mexican-American war, Monroe Doctrine, etc. Even Indian Removal Act/Trail of Tears was largely driven by fear that colonial powers would continue to use Indian tribes as proxies to harass and destabilize US borders.



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4330166&forum_id=2#38740862)



Reply

Date: August 25th, 2019 1:03 PM
Author: mischievous cocky site

sherman’s march to the sea was too kind by half

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4330166&forum_id=2#38739276)



Reply

Date: August 25th, 2019 1:03 PM
Author: Geriatric party of the first part philosopher-king

Hey man, what part of Asia is your family from?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4330166&forum_id=2#38739278)



Reply

Date: August 25th, 2019 1:04 PM
Author: amber turdskin



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4330166&forum_id=2#38739279)



Reply

Date: August 25th, 2019 1:05 PM
Author: mischievous cocky site

holy shit xoxo wrong and retarded once again who woulda thought it

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4330166&forum_id=2#38739282)



Reply

Date: August 25th, 2019 1:07 PM
Author: Geriatric party of the first part philosopher-king

Is this J? Because you’re sounding a lot like J so you could have just said Korea

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4330166&forum_id=2#38739286)



Reply

Date: August 25th, 2019 1:07 PM
Author: mischievous cocky site

i don’t know peoples names sorry

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4330166&forum_id=2#38739287)



Reply

Date: August 25th, 2019 10:21 PM
Author: Shimmering sandwich



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4330166&forum_id=2#38741769)



Reply

Date: August 25th, 2019 1:06 PM
Author: green hominid alpha

Best Civil War thread I've seen in a while. Btw, I am Jewish and live in Birmingham and believe me, my ancestors had nothing to do with slavery!

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4330166&forum_id=2#38739284)



Reply

Date: August 25th, 2019 6:38 PM
Author: Curious travel guidebook location



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4330166&forum_id=2#38740664)



Reply

Date: August 25th, 2019 7:55 PM
Author: lake diverse temple

How about in Montgomery?

"In 1844, 23-year-old Henry Lehman,[13] the son of a Jewish cattle merchant, emigrated to the United States from Rimpar, Bavaria.[14] He settled in Montgomery, Alabama,[13] where he opened a dry-goods store, "H. Lehman".[15] In 1847, following the arrival of his brother Emanuel Lehman, the firm became "H. Lehman and Bro."[16] With the arrival of their youngest brother, Mayer Lehman, in 1850, the firm changed its name again and "Lehman Brothers" was founded.[15][17]

During the 1850s, cotton was one of the most important crops in the United States, and nearly all cotton was produced by enslaved people. Alabama, including the Montgomery area, had one of the highest reliance on slave labor in the United States.[18] Capitalizing on cotton's high market value, the three brothers began to routinely accept raw cotton from customers as payment for merchandise, eventually beginning a second business trading in cotton. Within a few years this business grew to become the most significant part of their operation."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehman_Brothers

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4330166&forum_id=2#38740982)



Reply

Date: August 25th, 2019 6:19 PM
Author: Curious travel guidebook location

Something like 80% of federal reserves came from the South, and the bulk of federal tax-revenue was being raised by tariffs on Southern-produced goods, and similarly most of the tax spending was done in the North.

The South was the North's cash machine for New England's textile manufacturing competition with European textile production. Andrew Jackson quelled the situation when South Carolina in 1832 (I believe not sure on year) refused to pay a tariff and a conflict nearly broke out then.

These were simmering tensions that were at least decades old, if not more. But it's no mystery why Lincoln would need to preserve the Union - I'm surprised one would even ask the question - from a political philosophy aspect it would hurt their cause, from a personal aspect it would be embarrassing to do nothing, and from a financial aspect it was essentially impossible not to act to preserve the Union.

This was the occasion, the underlying cause is probably something like deep identity differences between the two sides. There was some great book I can't remember the name - I heard a good amount on audible, about how the regional / local politics of America today largely stem from what regions of Britain the settlers of the area came from.

For example - New England was filled with puritan banking elites, whereas the deep south was settled by Scottish / Irish from herding economies. And these societies that the Scotch-Irish came from were kinship honor societies that handled matters locally, and very closely guarded against outside threats to the community, because in herding families if a single outside threat came in and say wiped out the flock, it would RUIN your family.

So there were deep differences in political identities and the whole "states rights" had deep foundations in the kinship honor societies that ran ranching / herding economies, versus puritanical New England banking elites.

But the answer to the question is pretty simple in my humble view.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4330166&forum_id=2#38740599)



Reply

Date: August 25th, 2019 6:30 PM
Author: Brussels Sprout (Apropos of the Wet Snow)

Lincoln was a lawyer and as such he understood the meaning of Federalism. He did what he had to do.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4330166&forum_id=2#38740627)



Reply

Date: August 25th, 2019 6:44 PM
Author: Geriatric party of the first part philosopher-king

Oh he definitely did a few things

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4330166&forum_id=2#38740683)



Reply

Date: August 25th, 2019 6:47 PM
Author: Heady carnelian ticket booth

Same reason the north wants it now: big booty blondes

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4330166&forum_id=2#38740698)



Reply

Date: August 25th, 2019 9:14 PM
Author: trip salmon range azn

I'm no expert, but didn't the federal government mostly finance itself through import tariffs? And weren't most of the ports in the south....?



(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4330166&forum_id=2#38741362)



Reply

Date: August 25th, 2019 10:17 PM
Author: Appetizing pisswyrm potus

A divided US would never be a world power and that was the goal

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4330166&forum_id=2#38741734)



Reply

Date: August 26th, 2019 1:08 AM
Author: Flickering beady-eyed selfie goal in life

good thread, ty

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=4330166&forum_id=2#38742537)