CLSers: Should we stop using AA for law review spots?
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Poast new message in this thread
Date: December 18th, 2006 11:18 PM Author: frozen newt
I think so.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548829&forum_id=2#7254525) |
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Date: December 19th, 2006 8:23 AM Author: Soggy stage
Dude, you're too easy to out to be saying things like this on xoxo. Someone with a bone to pick could really out you.
If the law review selection process bothers you, bring it up to the Dean. It's not like starting a thread on xoxo will change anything.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548829&forum_id=2#7256683) |
Date: December 18th, 2006 11:25 PM Author: frozen newt
Would be nice to see some transparancy in the selection process as a whole.
7 spots are currently reserved for URMs.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548829&forum_id=2#7254589) |
Date: December 18th, 2006 11:30 PM Author: floppy heaven
No, I don't mind. Seven spots is pretty minimal.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548829&forum_id=2#7254629) |
Date: December 18th, 2006 11:35 PM Author: Marvelous zippy menage boltzmann
Wow, how many schools use AA for law review?
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548829&forum_id=2#7254673) |
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Date: December 18th, 2006 11:57 PM Author: rusted milk goyim
"it's based solely on blind-graded personal statements. I've never heard any speculation that it's used to practice race-based AA."
LOL. You think the fact that the personal statements are blind-graded means people aren't paying attention to race?
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548829&forum_id=2#7254898) |
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Date: December 19th, 2006 12:13 PM Author: Dead tanning salon
"Growing up in East Saint Louis..."
I hate to say it but growing up in east st louis and ending up in a position to be in law review is alot more interesting than 8/10 other ps's that will probably end up putting the readers to sleep. just because that guy is chosen is it because of race? or could it be that he is more intruiging. its the fucking bearded lady. if the people choosing law review were all from east st. louis it would be the suburban kid chosen. be content the people in that position are from your background and most likely the 9 other seats for lr will be from your background, sheesh
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548829&forum_id=2#7257714) |
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Date: December 19th, 2006 2:02 PM Author: Curious address cuckoldry
yeah... except if AA looks only for diverse skin colors and not viewpoints, then it is kind of just a lie or false cover.
that said, I still think blacks are more likely to write notes concerning matters of particular interest to african americans and are also more likely to support publishing submissions from blacks and concerning matters of particular interest to african americans. so it's probably not totally bad to make skin color a proxy for diversity.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548829&forum_id=2#7258527) |
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Date: December 18th, 2006 11:40 PM Author: frozen newt
Name one time you've ever seen the word "diversity" used at Columbia to mean anything other than URM.
They even sent out an e-mail last year about a "diversity" scholarship that explicitly forbade white males from applying.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548829&forum_id=2#7254731) |
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Date: December 18th, 2006 11:55 PM Author: frozen newt
Also, if race isn't a factor, then why do they ask you what race you are?
If they are telling the truth, then they should have no problem making the entire application process color-blind.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548829&forum_id=2#7254874) |
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Date: December 19th, 2006 12:08 AM Author: wine fortuitous meteor parlour
There is a form that says "Indicate your race and/or gender here"
EDIT: This is from the 2005 writing competition btw, I don't know if last year's was different.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548829&forum_id=2#7255005) |
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Date: December 19th, 2006 12:11 AM Author: frozen newt
I wrote "American" on the form, hoping maybe they would not be paying too close attention and mistake it for "African-American"
apparently it didn't work =P
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548829&forum_id=2#7255033) |
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Date: December 18th, 2006 11:37 PM Author: Curious address cuckoldry
I was told most do... perhaps I was told something incorrect.
In another thread, people said CLS doesn't actually look for race, they "sincerely want diverse viewpoints" based upon a personal statement.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548829&forum_id=2#7254703) |
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Date: December 19th, 2006 10:54 AM Author: Motley Church Building Ceo
These are interesting comments; considering the identity of the EIC is easily known, it seems strange that he would ever say these things to you except under the strictest confidences, and I don't think the two of you are actually friends.
I call flame.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548829&forum_id=2#7257142) |
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Date: December 18th, 2006 11:51 PM Author: wine fortuitous meteor parlour
From http://www.law.nyu.edu/journals/lawreview/membership/criteria.html:
"Exactly 12 students will be selected on the basis of their personal statements, provided that either their grades or writing competition scores place them in the top half of all remaining applicants"
and
"The Law Review evaluates personal statements in light of various factors, including (but not limited to) race, ethnicity, gender, sexual orientation, national origin, religion, socio-economic background, ideological viewpoint, disability, and age."
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548829&forum_id=2#7254834) |
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Date: December 19th, 2006 12:51 AM Author: Razzmatazz Organic Girlfriend
I think it is more reflective of the actual value the candidate brings to law review (i.e., doing cite checks)
Even if "diversity of viewpoint" (rather than race) were being considered, why is such a thing useful for the relatively mechanical operation of law review?
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548829&forum_id=2#7255308) |
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Date: December 19th, 2006 10:55 AM Author: Motley Church Building Ceo
"I think it is more reflective of the actual value the candidate brings to law review (i.e., doing cite checks)"
Haha. Yes, you need to be in the Top 10% to properly cite check.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548829&forum_id=2#7257153) |
Date: December 18th, 2006 11:39 PM Author: Hairraiser flushed private investor
at HLS i think 10 of the 40 or so slots are "discretionary." this seems almost certain to mean AA. if so, that's too many, by my lights.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548829&forum_id=2#7254717) |
Date: December 18th, 2006 11:41 PM Author: Curious address cuckoldry
I support CLS having some diversity spots, especially if the following things are true:
(1) "diverse" means a legitimate effort to get diverse viewpoints, rather than just people of a certain skin color
(2) only those people who write personal statements are consideration for a diversity spot
(3) the GPA and writing sample of the diversity applicants are considered when weighing their personal statements
The other thread said these three things are true. If so, I'm cool with diversity spots.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548829&forum_id=2#7254738) |
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Date: December 18th, 2006 11:52 PM Author: Curious address cuckoldry
yeah, i guess that is just a justification--not a motivation.
i expect race-based aa from administrators and such, but it just seems odd that people so close to the process would want a so-called "oreo" rather than a diverse viewpoint.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548829&forum_id=2#7254845) |
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Date: December 19th, 2006 12:21 AM Author: Curious address cuckoldry
Well, any black person has a black perspective. What I'm trying to get at is the only legitimate justification for AA is that AA members will bring a different perspective then someone otherwise chosen. e.g. "We need AA spots or otherwise x viewpoint wouldn't be represented." If an AA admit will add the exact same thoughts, comments, input, whatever as someone admitted under pure meritocracy, then what's the point? you're not contributing diverse perspectives, but still taking the costs of aa.
While skin color is obviously correlated with view points, background, experiences, etc, I don't think it is fair to use race as a proxy for diversity.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548829&forum_id=2#7255102) |
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Date: December 19th, 2006 12:25 AM Author: Hairraiser flushed private investor
the dirty little secret, of course, is AA isn't really about diversity. it's about redressing past wrongs and preventing blacks from sinking into a permanent underclass. i believe in these goals generally. i think AA is good for society, despite the harm it cause others (especially asians) and the undeniable stigma it creates. that's why i support AA in school admissions.
in the case of law review competitions, though, i think the harms outweigh the benefits.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548829&forum_id=2#7255128)
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Date: December 18th, 2006 11:44 PM Author: stimulating round eye
There are 2 2L minorities that I know of. Both have good grades. GOI.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548829&forum_id=2#7254761) |
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Date: December 18th, 2006 11:48 PM Author: stimulating round eye
I know of at least one girl. She is not on law review and has shitty grades.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548829&forum_id=2#7254798)
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Date: December 18th, 2006 11:53 PM Author: Hairraiser flushed private investor
some of them surely are.
the trouble is, given what we know of black students' law school grades (see the latest sander study), it seems unlikely that many or most of them actually have good grades. and that creates stigma and breeds resentment. it's quite a bit different from the school-admissions context, because there are no substitutes for law review.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548829&forum_id=2#7254858) |
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Date: December 18th, 2006 11:55 PM Author: stimulating round eye
The study says all black people are in the bottom 10% of the class. I for one, am most definitely not in that group. So I don't give a flying f*&k what your study says.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548829&forum_id=2#7254877)
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Date: December 19th, 2006 12:02 AM Author: Hairraiser flushed private investor
the innuendo isn't necessary. what would be nice is if you grappled with the hard facts for once:
blacks often get on law review for the simple reason that they are black; the sander study and common sense say a significant percentage wouldn't have made it otherwise. since law review admissions is a zero-sum game, that tends to rub some non-URM students the wrong way.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548829&forum_id=2#7254954) |
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Date: December 19th, 2006 12:10 AM Author: Hairraiser flushed private investor
do you honestly not see the difference between anecdotes about your buddies and the statistics we're talking about?
you can criticize sander's methodology if you want, but mentioning 3-5 friends who are doing "well, i'm not sure how well, but let's just say very well for themselves" is NOT a criticism of those statistics.
meanwhile, if we take those statistics at face value (and you've said nothing to suggest we shouldn't), we can use inductive reasoning to tease out what common sense should've told you a long time ago: the columbia law review uses AA to help minority students make it. (if they didn't need the help, why would the practice exist?)
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548829&forum_id=2#7255021) |
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Date: December 19th, 2006 12:11 AM Author: stimulating round eye
*Sigh*, whatever.
PS - BTW it is quite a bit more than 3-5.
HTH
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548829&forum_id=2#7255038) |
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Date: December 19th, 2006 12:01 AM Author: stimulating round eye
I don't know of there being a large number of black females.
EDIT: There are 4-5 blacks total. 1(or 2) males and 3 females.
Double Edit: This was for last year.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548829&forum_id=2#7254939) |
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Date: December 19th, 2006 11:00 AM Author: Motley Church Building Ceo
Actually, that's not true for CLS and other schools where there are LR spots based solely on the writing competition. It's not just grades.
So did you ever get someone to read over and evaluate your writing competition piece? Haha.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548829&forum_id=2#7257178) |
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Date: December 19th, 2006 11:03 AM Author: Motley Church Building Ceo
Actually, it continues to mean that you still can't get over the fact that you're above the median but didn't make law review, and somehow you feel you deserved it anyway, even though the criteria did not change after you applied or accepted admission to CLS. I wonder how much of the time you saved by not being on LR you wasted by moving between being angry and sorry for yourself.
Please get over it. HTH.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548829&forum_id=2#7257203) |
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Date: December 19th, 2006 11:07 AM Author: excitant grizzly boistinker
So if there are at least 2-3 black Stone scholars.
And here are 120 Stone Scholars.
A maximum of 42 people on law review.
That means that if a black Stone scholar makes law review, it must be because of AA.
.
Huh?
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548829&forum_id=2#7257227) |
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Date: December 19th, 2006 11:10 AM Author: Motley Church Building Ceo
You forgot the fact that all Stone Scholars have the same grades and the same quality writing competition.
That would almost get you to the conclusion she did. But you'd still have the problem of the fact that 40/120 is 1 out of 3, so one would still make it simply through random selection.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548829&forum_id=2#7257243) |
Date: December 18th, 2006 11:44 PM Author: jet-lagged smoky international law enforcement agency
LOL @ all the whiteys who wouldnt get on LR even without AA
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548829&forum_id=2#7254766) |
Date: December 18th, 2006 11:59 PM Author: frozen newt
Anyone here strongly support using race as a factor for making law review? If so, why?
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548829&forum_id=2#7254922) |
Date: December 19th, 2006 12:04 AM Author: bat shit crazy aphrodisiac national security agency
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548829&forum_id=2#7254969) |
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Date: December 19th, 2006 11:08 AM Author: Motley Church Building Ceo
"It's hard to see how diversity can contribute in that regard."
On the flipside, it's also hard to see how diversity harms in that regard.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548829&forum_id=2#7257235) |
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Date: December 19th, 2006 1:32 PM Author: bat shit crazy aphrodisiac national security agency
You're right of course, but getting law review is a kind of reward/award, and in my opinion should go to those who most deserve it. I guess we disagree over who deserves it.
Edit: Speaking of rewards, one of my friends likened it to a pie-eating contest where the winner gets more pie.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548829&forum_id=2#7258296) |
Date: December 19th, 2006 12:07 AM Author: Anal whorehouse
AA for law review is harmful for everyone. It hurts the qualified non-URMs who just miss law review. And it hurts all the URMs on law review because everyone looks at them and knows they wouldn't make it otherwise (whether or not it's true).
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548829&forum_id=2#7254986) |
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Date: December 19th, 2006 12:10 AM Author: stimulating round eye
"t hurts the qualified non-URMs like Cravath3L who are just miss law review"
I guess that explains why he created the thread. If he were such a "qualified" candidate then he wouldn't have just miss*ed* LR. That said, I don't want to get into a flame war over it. Minorities are often the scapegoats for people who missed the boat for whatever reason, and it is not always fair.
HTFH
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548829&forum_id=2#7255019) |
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Date: December 19th, 2006 12:20 AM Author: frozen newt
I think your misinterpreting the purpose of this thread. It's not to whine about not getting on law review. I'm a 3L now, I'm doing just fine, and I really don't care. Nor do I think that w/o AA I would have "just made it" - I probably would have been dinged anyway.
I simply think that law review admissions from here on out should be colorblind.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548829&forum_id=2#7255095) |
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Date: December 19th, 2006 11:13 AM Author: Motley Church Building Ceo
"I think your misinterpreting the purpose of this thread. It's not to whine about not getting on law review."
I may not hear it in your voice, but I certainly hear Fertile whining.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548829&forum_id=2#7257264) |
Date: December 19th, 2006 12:24 AM Author: Cracking Ticket Booth
Vandy is the only school I'm aware of that is color-blind for LR (not that I know much on the topic). They had that article last year because a black girl made it. I'm sure someone knows what I'm talking about...
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548829&forum_id=2#7255120) |
Date: December 19th, 2006 12:30 AM Author: Dashing National Philosopher-king
I think it is fine for admissions or jobs but not for things like law review or honors societies. These things should be purely merit based.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548829&forum_id=2#7255152) |
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Date: December 19th, 2006 12:38 AM Author: Alcoholic Green Double Fault Brunch
the bottom line is this: having AA for law review ultimately costs non-URMs a negligble amount. for those people really at the margins who can could really claim "but for AA" having/not having LR on the resume would have helped a little bit but not made a substantial difference in your career/life prospects. its not like having LR was the only thing standing in between you and SCOTUS or Wachtell or whatever; those marginally good grades are a much bigger obstacle chief.
bottom line, whatever you could have achieved having LR on your resume is still probably within your reach w/ a little more work, better 2L grades, etc. or else it wasn't ever at all, even with LR.
now for some generalizations about people who like to bitch and moan about AA on internet message boards:
1. remind me of people who whine and stew about bad calls and use them as an excuse when their team loses a game
2. usually don't get half as upset about other types of non-meritocratic boosts like legacy, connections, etc.
3. more than a few of the real bitter ones on this board would never even be able to sack up and disagree as vehemently to minorities' faces about AA as they do on an anonymous message boards, which seems strange given how convinced they are of the correctness of their own arguments.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548829&forum_id=2#7255211) |
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Date: December 19th, 2006 12:42 AM Author: frozen newt
Law review is virtually a pre-req for Wachtell and feeder court clerkships. So your assertion that law review could not be the only thing standing between you and Wachtell or SCOTUS is incorrect. It could be.
Although I am certainly not one of those people. I wouldn't be on law review with or without AA.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548829&forum_id=2#7255242) |
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Date: December 19th, 2006 7:22 AM Author: Fear-inspiring chad
yeah, it's the marginal candidates who get the biggest boost from law review. so the extent that he says it doesn't really hurt the people who get cut, he's pretty mistaken.
that said, he does have some valid points (about some whiners).
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548829&forum_id=2#7256622) |
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Date: December 19th, 2006 12:43 AM Author: stimulating round eye
now for some generalizations about people who like to bitch and moan about AA on internet message boards:
1. remind me of people who whine and stew about bad calls and use them as an excuse when their team loses a game
2. usually don't get half as upset about other types of non-meritocratic boosts like legacy, connections, etc.
3. more than a few of the real bitter ones on this board would never even be able to sack up and disagree as vehemently to minorities' faces about AA as they do on an anonymous message boards, which seems strange given how convinced they are of the correctness of their own arguments.
These are all credited posts.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548829&forum_id=2#7255246) |
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Date: December 19th, 2006 12:46 AM Author: Cobalt orchestra pit goal in life
So, people basically need to shut their fucking faces and quit complaining about getting fucked over.
Fuck you, seriously.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548829&forum_id=2#7255275) |
Date: December 19th, 2006 12:38 AM Author: 180 Iridescent Puppy Dilemma
Although I strongly support AA in admissions and hiring, I agree that AA for law review spots is undesirable. For law students, law review is something like Latin honors or Phi Beta Kappa in undergrad. Extending AA to every measure of academic achievement destroys the integrity of the individualized evaluative process.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548829&forum_id=2#7255208) |
Date: December 19th, 2006 12:44 AM Author: Arousing roast beef theatre
Ignoring the merits of AA for a second, can you imagine the furor that this would cause in certain segments of the CLS community? The faculty, for example, would not be happy.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548829&forum_id=2#7255254) |
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Date: December 19th, 2006 12:52 AM Author: Arousing roast beef theatre
I just imagine that if the CLR got rid of AA, the faculty would be seriously upset. The faculty is overwhelmingly populated with die-hard liberals. Someone told me, for example, that in a faculty meeting people started discussing Planned Parenthood v. Casey, and that Dorf, who is rumored to have written the opinion as a clerk, was given a standing ovation.
Large segments of the CLR alumni population are also probably liberals who would not be happy with such a decision.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548829&forum_id=2#7255315) |
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Date: December 19th, 2006 12:58 AM Author: frozen newt
I have no idea what his political viewpoints are. I've always just assumed he was liberal. But it turns out he is a Federalist. So is Catherine Sharkey, the clerkship chair. Clarissa Long, a new IP prof, was President of the Federalist Society at Stanford Law School.
Perhaps the faculty wouldn't be so opposed to this after all...
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548829&forum_id=2#7255380) |
Date: December 19th, 2006 12:47 AM Author: Outnumbered hot crackhouse
Minorities have a unique perspective on cite checking and editing.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548829&forum_id=2#7255278) |
Date: December 19th, 2006 12:58 AM Author: Rebellious Alpha
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548829&forum_id=2#7255381) |
Date: December 19th, 2006 1:10 AM Author: soul-stirring area gaping
Anyone else feel like this school is extremely segregated? While we are on race topics. My circle of friends is extremely homogenous, and it wasn't like this in undergrad or high school.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548829&forum_id=2#7255490) |
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Date: December 19th, 2006 7:27 AM Author: Fear-inspiring chad
you are extremely correct, CLS is segregated. My undergrad also had segregation, but I think CLS is even more so.
There's two main groups I don't get a lot of interaction with: international students and black students. I think other groups are mixed together.
The fact that most international students are LLM and in a different course pretty well explains for the international students.
from what I gather, the black students were all involved in BLSA and other race-related events before school started, so developed a clique before others arrived.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548829&forum_id=2#7256626) |
Date: December 19th, 2006 9:43 AM Author: rusted milk goyim
Some people have said here that AA is appropriate for law school admissions but not for law review, because law review is an "honor society." This is absurd. Law review is first and foremost a non-profit business. CLR puts out eight issues a year, which requires a shitload of work. It is much closer to a job than to, say, Phi Beta Kappa, where you get the honor and never hear about it again. Sure, law review is prestigious and therefore is a form of "honor." But it is really no more an honor society than is Wachtell; both are prestigious, but they don't exist to confer prestige. The fact is that people on law review work together a lot, and they have a legitimate interest in shaping the group of people they work with in ways that they deem desirable. If rejects don't like that, fuck 'em.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548829&forum_id=2#7256863) |
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Date: December 19th, 2006 9:51 AM Author: Fear-inspiring chad
"they don't exist to confer prestige"
actually, I think they do. If law review were no longer looked upon as a huge resume boost, 98% of people who do it would not do it.
u r right that it is different because there actually is a substantial amount of work. But i think that is more of a subsidiary purpose.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548829&forum_id=2#7256900) |
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Date: December 19th, 2006 10:00 AM Author: Fear-inspiring chad
man, i simply ask whether i need to do anything and people get all crazy. how many people are on law review because they enjoy it or think bluebooking is a great experience for them?
I have never heard anyone talk about law review as anything other than an honor.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548829&forum_id=2#7256945) |
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Date: December 19th, 2006 10:03 AM Author: excitant grizzly boistinker
"I have never heard anyone talk about law review as anything other than an honor."
Not relevant to its purpose as an institution.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548829&forum_id=2#7256959) |
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Date: December 19th, 2006 10:41 AM Author: Fear-inspiring chad
the purpose of acme company is to make a profit for its shareholders. production of widgets is a means to further that goal.
social or economic institutions have their own purposes. e.g. the purpose of a school is NOT to confer degrees, but rather to educate students, increase overall wellbeing, prepare people for the workforce, etc. Just because it confers degrees doesn't mean its purpose is to confer degrees.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548829&forum_id=2#7257091) |
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Date: December 19th, 2006 10:06 AM Author: rusted milk goyim
"how many people are on law review because they enjoy it or think bluebooking is a great experience for them?"
Ok, people do law review because it is prestigious; ergo, the purpose of law reviews is to confer prestige.
Your logical skills are so dismal that your query about "what you can be doing now" to get onto law review seems even more laughable. Cheers.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548829&forum_id=2#7256968) |
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Date: December 19th, 2006 10:33 AM Author: Fear-inspiring chad
One dictionary defines "The object toward which one strives or for which something exists; an aim or a goal"
Law review exists to confer prestige. If it did not confer prestige, it would cease to exist as we know it. While it may have stated purposes that are otherwise, and it certainly DOES work and produce a product, its true aim/goal is to confer prestige.
If everyone went to college to get a job, it's not appropriate to say "the purpose of college is to inculcate a love of reason and appreciation for the literature." Sure, in some technical sense that might be true. And it sounds nicer. But it's not accurate.
Likewise, National Honor Society in high school is a "service organization." It's "purpose" isn't to confer prestige, but rather to help organize community service. In reality, despite its stated purpose and actual activity, its real purpose is to confer prestige--just like law review.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548829&forum_id=2#7257050) |
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Date: December 19th, 2006 10:50 AM Author: excitant grizzly boistinker
you're missing the point that the purpose of the members in joining and the purpose of the organization in existing are two different things.
The purpose of law review FOR YOU is that it confers prestige upon you - but this just means that it defines YOUR purpose for law review.
If everyone went to college "to get a job", it could still be reasonable to say that colleges exist to "inculcate love of reason" if that is the reason why those who control the institution choose to continue its existence.
If the legal scholarship part of law review somehow disintegrated, my assumption is that law review as we know it would cease to exist.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548829&forum_id=2#7257128) |
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Date: December 19th, 2006 10:55 AM Author: Fear-inspiring chad
Well, I guess we make a distinction. You believe that a mindless organization can have some sort of metaphysical purpose different from the aggregate motives of the people that run, control, and manage it.
Your argument certainly has some merit, but I personally think of purpose in a more pragmatic, realistic way rather than an abstract and pedantic way.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548829&forum_id=2#7257151) |
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Date: December 19th, 2006 9:57 AM Author: excitant grizzly boistinker
the fact that people wouldn't do law review if it weren't prestigious doesn't mean that it exists to confer prestige.
People wouldn't work at Wachtell if it weren't prestigious and if it didn't pay well, but that doesn't mean that it exists to confer prestige or to pay people.
Law review exists primarily as a forum for professor prestige in publishing. The student prestige is entirely secondary, and is the carrot needed to get the labor.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548829&forum_id=2#7256928) |
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Date: December 19th, 2006 10:35 AM Author: frozen newt
"People wouldn't work at Wachtell if it weren't prestigious and if it didn't pay well, but that doesn't mean that it exists ... to pay people."
I think that's exactly why Wachtell exists: to pay people.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548829&forum_id=2#7257057) |
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Date: December 19th, 2006 10:38 AM Author: Fear-inspiring chad
I don't see how my logic is any worse than the comment "well they publish things, so they must be their purpose!!"
I also post on xoxo, but that isn't my "purpose."
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548829&forum_id=2#7257076) |
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Date: December 19th, 2006 10:48 AM Author: Fear-inspiring chad
I've never been worried about aa. and if i don't make lr, so be it
I invite you to user your superior logic skills and justify the position that the purpose of law review is NOT to confer prestige.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548829&forum_id=2#7257119) |
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Date: December 19th, 2006 10:40 AM Author: frozen newt
disclaimer: I've never made the "honor society" disctinction that some others on here have made.
"The fact is that people on law review work together a lot, and they have a legitimate interest in shaping the group of people they work with in ways that they deem desirable."
Agreed. I just don't think choosing people because of the color of their skin is one of these legitimate interests. For all you know, the next EIC of law review could be a racist and s/he could use race to surreptitiously prevent qualified URMs from getting on law review. It's just a bad precedent to ask people to self-identify their race and the entire process should be colorblind.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548829&forum_id=2#7257088) |
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Date: December 19th, 2006 11:15 AM Author: Fear-inspiring chad
I'm pretty sure happycamper=publius=bitter lr reject
the unwillingness to back up any of the claims makes me think they are all without merit.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548829&forum_id=2#7257274) |
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Date: December 19th, 2006 11:44 AM Author: Fear-inspiring chad
yeah, that's a leap.
if the guy legitimately thought he was shorted, he'd come out and explain his facts, publish is writing sample, personal statement and his grades, say what "minority" group he is in, and spill on where he's getting evidence to support his allegations.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548829&forum_id=2#7257521) |
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Date: December 19th, 2006 11:29 AM Author: Motley Church Building Ceo
The only "minority group" that I think could fit this criteria is asian males.
Do I win the prize?
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548829&forum_id=2#7257405) |
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Date: December 19th, 2006 11:54 AM Author: soul-stirring area gaping
Think about other types of "minority groups" that go beyond a checkable box on the LR form, and one that is well represented at CLS (and constantly bashed on this board).
In this case, there is no chance that animus towards the group had any influence over the decision to conspire against this individual -- that was based on the individual him/herself -- but the fact remains that as long as the process is done in an environment where there is no accountability or transparency, future generations of LR editors could easily exclude people based on other criteria.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548829&forum_id=2#7257583) |
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Date: December 19th, 2006 11:57 AM Author: excitant grizzly boistinker
dood, everything is bashed on this board, you're going to have to be a little more specific.
Also, many of us don't remember what the checkboxes were. How about you at least post the list of checkboxes, and we'll eliminate down to it.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548829&forum_id=2#7257603) |
Date: December 19th, 2006 9:50 AM Author: Racy institution
The blacks are taking our women and law review spots!
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548829&forum_id=2#7256891) |
Date: December 19th, 2006 11:27 AM Author: Hairraiser flushed private investor
the argument over the appropriate analogy to draw here - law firms? associates? widgets? agent/master? - is one of the most wrongheaded cases of reasoning by analogy i've ever seen.
the point is NOT the "fundamental purpose" of law review. so we don't really need whatever 5-part test you dream up to draw parallels between law review editors and law firm associates.
the point is that being on law review confers a great, singular and non-substitutable prestige to its editors. that doesn't have to be its *only or main metapysical purpose* for that point to serve its purpose in this discussion.
so what does the special law review prestige mean? it means the harms visited upon people who *don't* make it due to AA can't really be mitigated in the same sense that the marginal student can take a hit from columbia and still go to penn. it also explains why it bothers people that membership in one of the most prestigious groups at law school, which is based on merit competition for everyone else, can be as easy as box-checking for a minority of people (most of whom would not have had a chance otherwise).
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548829&forum_id=2#7257389) |
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Date: December 19th, 2006 11:32 AM Author: Motley Church Building Ceo
But why are people so bothered by something that they knew about or at least expected going into it and that they are very unlikely to change?
Did anyone here really think that there would be no "diversity" boost given in determining LR membership at your school? That's simply being naive.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548829&forum_id=2#7257443) |
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Date: December 19th, 2006 11:35 AM Author: Hairraiser flushed private investor
two responses.
when's the appropriate time for notice? for instance, i don't know if people knew or expected this when they went into law school, and matriculation is at least a plausible point-of-no-return here for purposes of notice. i know that i hadn't given it a single thought.
but also, why should knowing this matter? just because you knew of something that you disagree with a year or two ago, that means you can't disagree with it now? odd.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548829&forum_id=2#7257469) |
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Date: December 19th, 2006 11:40 AM Author: Motley Church Building Ceo
First, almost everything now gets a diversity bump, so I think everyone should have known or should have been able to guess. I'm sure the criteria is also posted on the LR website or the school website. CLR's description on the CLS website is here, and explains the criteria: http://www.law.columbia.edu/current_student/Law_Journals/law_review
Second, of course you can disagree with something that you can't change and that you should have known about, but it just seems like a giant waste of time and effort.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548829&forum_id=2#7257500) |
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Date: December 19th, 2006 11:42 AM Author: Hairraiser flushed private investor
obviously this depends on your baseline. but in light of the second point in dispute it's probabaly irrelevant anyway, so i don't care enough to pursue this.
it's not a giant waste of time and effort. policies can and do change. debate, public and private, is what makes change happen. see michigan, california, etc.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548829&forum_id=2#7257509) |
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Date: December 19th, 2006 12:50 PM Author: frozen newt
Actually Mr.Dizzle, I think many people are really surprised when they find out that there are racial preferences for law review membership.
At least from personal experience, when I found out about the preferences early 1L year and told several others 1Ls (all of whom are generally AA supporters), they were shocked and didn't seem very happy about it. On the other hand, they were white males who were gunning for LR, so they had a personal stake in the matter.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548829&forum_id=2#7257971) |
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Date: December 19th, 2006 11:57 AM Author: Hairraiser flushed private investor
i understand this response, definitely. but i think there are two flaws:
(1) it might not be most useful to argue whether law review is more like X or Y. if it gets 10 points in the X column and 15 in the Y, that doesn't mean we should treat it as an exclusive Y. for the sake of argument, let's say X is honor society and Y is work organization. in my opinion, if something that looks a little more like a work organization than an honor society still confers huge prestige, that raises the same X issues regardless. should they be balanced against the "work organization" concerns? certainly, but see below.
(2) i think there's a good argument that law review editors don't seek out people of color simply because they "add diversity." (and i have big doubts about whether that's ever actually why we practice AA anyway.) they seek them out because they know being on law review will help the URM students get jobs and clerkships.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548829&forum_id=2#7257606) |
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Date: December 19th, 2006 12:01 PM Author: rusted milk goyim
(1) sure, good analysis. but still raises the question, as you acknowledge, of how to balance concerns of X against Y. i privilege the concerns of Y. honor societies are much less important in a job market that is primarily grades driven.
(2) hard for me to say what's in the hearts and minds of various law review editors around the country who practice some form of AA. i for one care about it not being a white male club as an end in itself, not b/c it will get the non-whites good jobs. but i can't speak for others.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548829&forum_id=2#7257629) |
Date: December 19th, 2006 12:56 PM Author: frozen newt
FWIW, there seems to be enough confusion about the entire selection process that there should be more transparency. It would be nice at least if applicants received:
1) Their writing competition score,
2) the minimum writing comp score needed to get one of the '10 writing slots',
and 3) the average writing comp score + GPA of the people who received the '25 writing comp + GPA slots.'
I can't imagine this being extremely difficult to do, and it would do a lot towards making the entire process more transparent.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548829&forum_id=2#7258022) |
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Date: December 19th, 2006 1:27 PM Author: Anal whorehouse
This is a great idea.
It's really silly how much work we put into the writing competition and that we receive no transparency whatsoever.
The argument against this is that he really shows the URM's who make law review WHY they made law review. I mean if they have a 3.2 and subpar writing score, it's obvious why they made it.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548829&forum_id=2#7258261) |
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Date: December 19th, 2006 1:57 PM Author: bat shit crazy aphrodisiac national security agency
which is why any unfair decision-making process is better made in the dark.
Actually I do think it's a good idea not to have law review students comparing themselves to each other, but really would people ask about each other's scores? Do people ask you about your LSAT/GPA? I can't imagine it.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548829&forum_id=2#7258485) |
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Date: December 19th, 2006 2:16 PM Author: Motley Church Building Ceo
Hahaha. Transparency in law review decisions? Why not transparency in how professors grade exams? In how law school admissions decisions are made? In how firms decide who to call back and hire for 1L and 2L jobs?
This little tiny aspect of law school leading to so much discussion, anger, self-pity and resentment seems so ridiculous to me.
So one doesn't make LR. So what? Some options are closed off. Options were closed off the day you got that B in contracts, or the day you got that DING! from YLS.
So one doesn't make LR. So what? Now you have a ton more free time during 2L and 3L year. Go enjoy it instead of discussing the merits of LR admission and feeling sorry for yourself. Or take the time and study your ass off if you don't get the job you want as a 2L because you didn't get the tiny bump LR membership gives you so you can reinterview during 3L year.
It's strange how people think they are entitled to have things done the way they want. I guess this is why people walk around with headphones in their ears all the time; if they actually looked around and listened to the real world they just couldn't handle it.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548829&forum_id=2#7258648) |
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Date: December 19th, 2006 2:39 PM Author: frozen newt
"Why not transparency in how professors grade exams?"
I'm OK with that. A grand list of several other things that aren't always clear isn't an argument against transparency in the law review selection process, In fact, I don't hear one argument against transparency in your entire post. "Get over it and stop whining" is not much of a reason.
More transparency is so easy. It wouldn't even take much effort. The only reason I can think of against transparency is people on law review don't want to be held accountable for how they make their decisions. And this, I think, is a pretty bad argument.
EDIT: Also, for the marginal candidates, law review membership is not a "tiny bump." I bet a 3.6 w/ law review does dramatically better in OCI and in the clerkship process than a 3.6 w/ no law review.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548829&forum_id=2#7258803) |
Date: December 19th, 2006 1:39 PM Author: Turquoise disturbing famous landscape painting turdskin Subject: How many LRs do this?
So how many Law Reviews actually do this? I know for sure they don't do it at my T2. Is it just a prestigious-school thing?
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548829&forum_id=2#7258348) |
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Date: December 19th, 2006 8:14 PM Author: Vibrant locus
Not that many, and even fewer are very overt about it.
However the ones that do tend to be at top schools.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548829&forum_id=2#7260781) |
Date: December 19th, 2006 1:55 PM Author: bat shit crazy aphrodisiac national security agency
I don't think anyone has pointed out yet that reserving spots for minorities doesn't necessarily hurt white guys. It could have been that there were 35 spots and only 2 minorities on law review, so they decided to expand to 40 and reserve seven spots for minorities. If that's the case, then no one really has anything to complain about unless you're concerned that making law review is now marginally less prestigious than before.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548829&forum_id=2#7258464) |
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Date: December 19th, 2006 7:30 PM Author: Fear-inspiring chad
I think you're right that it's the "main reason people are upset." People generally don't get emotional about policies they see as ineffective, counterproductive, or morally wrong in a general sense. People usually only "get upset" when they feel they are somehow hurt.
So you're right about that--but I think that ignores the fact that people have legitimate reservations about AA.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548829&forum_id=2#7260489) |
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Date: December 19th, 2006 2:13 PM Author: Hairraiser flushed private investor
it could've been that way - we don't really know.
anyway, think about this. suppose a law review has 40 members per class. if they phase out AA, that doesn't mean they'll go back to 35 each. that would just mean more work for everyone. so it'd be still be 40 spots up for grabs based on writing and grades.
the arguments remain the same, unless you think the fact that the law review expanded to include minorities, at some point in the past, is somehow dispositive.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548829&forum_id=2#7258633) |
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Date: December 19th, 2006 7:35 PM Author: Fear-inspiring chad
People could argue against AA for many reasons:
(1) AA actually hurts the URMs it is meant to help
(2) AA exacerbates racial tension and strife, resulting in a less civil society
(3) AA reduces the overall quality of the staff because it introduces factors that can trump merit
(4) AA is wrong in principle, regardless of its impact, because it is inherently unjust to judge people by the color of their skin rather than the content of their character
(5) AA is completely ineffective in furthering any of its goals
(6) AA was a necessary evil when racism was more pervasive and damaging, but now that institutional racism has been reduced it is no longer relevant
(7) AA encourages dishonesty, as non-URM or marginally-URMs misrepresent themselves to get a boost
These are arguments, not facts. And I don't think all of them have validity--but they go to show you that there ARE other reasons to oppose AA besides trying to help out non-URMs or hurt URMs.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548829&forum_id=2#7260505) |
Date: December 19th, 2006 2:58 PM Author: Drab filthpig mediation
the thing about law review is that it's sole value is in signaling that the members either 1) got good grades, 2) are excellent writers, or 3) some combination of both. w/out transparency as to the use of aa in law review membership, it loses a lot of it's value as a signaling method.
law school admissions, otoh, is different. while there is a lot of signaling there as well, the main value of attending a better law school is (supposedly) educational. an aa admit from, say, cls can very well come out a better lawyer than a regular fordham admit (w/the same #'s) by virtue of having studied under better professors and with better students. furthermore, everyone knows about the use of aa in admissions. The effect on signaling value is thus reduced for those two reasons.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548829&forum_id=2#7258927) |
Date: December 19th, 2006 8:11 PM Author: Vibrant locus
Wow, this turned out to be a pretty fascinating thread.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548829&forum_id=2#7260754) |
Date: January 25th, 2007 11:39 AM Author: Insanely creepy mind-boggling candlestick maker main people Subject: Evan-2001
Excellent posts. However, law review has a substitute: other law journals. Sure, they're not as prestigious, but Penn isn't as prestigious as Columbia either.
Your views are honest in my opinion. You recognize the true purpose or AA: redressing historical wrongs. However, I think your view that AA is proper in many institutional decision-making processes, except the one you're currently going through or recently went through is self-serving. It's always easy to support AA if you're lucky enough to get admitted, get selected, or get the job despite its presence.
Get used to AA. It's not a one, two, or even three time boost anymore. It follows people throughout their careers. In the legal universe, it helps all the way through. College admissions, law admissions, law review selection, law firm hiring, and now it's almost certainly extended into partnership decisions.
You need to either accept the fact that AA must be pervasive throughout our institutions because of (1) the need to redress historical wrongs and (2) minorities' consistent failure to live up to standards of excellence in sufficient numbers. Or you need to oppose AA as wrong everywhere.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548829&forum_id=2#7482960) |
Date: September 4th, 2007 7:39 PM Author: medicated dark point factory reset button
Reminder: XOXO used to be able to have a 315+ thread discussion about AA with only one idiotic post yelling stupid racist shit.
Oh, how far we've come.
(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=548829&forum_id=2#8599826) |
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