it seems to be based on this weird presumption that there are tens of thousands of married men with children who would immediately sign up for 6 years of seminary to become priests. just drop their careers, go to night school like deacons do, and then consign their families to poverty to become priests.

there is just no such demand. i don't see it.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5001094&forum_id=2#43733507)

the only guy i saw do it right was a welder who ended up becoming a prison chaplain. he was one of the last of the most masculine vietnam generation bros. one of my dad's best friends.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5001094&forum_id=2#43733563)

with that said, in a world where money is nbd, sure. but married couples have kids and want to make money. the church at this point financially is in a freefall. they are not going to miraculously find more money to double the salaries of priests as they continue to settle all these cases, etc.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5001094&forum_id=2#43737868)

Men with families cannot, nor should, do this.

You are devoting your life to God and being the spiritual father to your flock. You cannot have an actual family competing with that vocation.

I think its fine to make exceptions (e.g. Eastern rites, Anglican converts, etc). But its pretty sound logic. The real issue is that the public perception of becoming a priest has been in freefall for 80 years. Meaning many just went for the wrong reasons (sexual deviancy, etc). We need to restore the prestige. The rest will follow and young men of good character will flock back.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5001094&forum_id=2#43733603)

i know his papacy leaves much to be desired, but in a just world where we were taught things correctly john paul the great would be on most peoples' walls next to pictures of jesus, lincoln, and mlk.

actually went to a house that had a pic of john paul the great on their wall. 180 family.

fr. capodanno, fr. capaun, st. damien of molokai, servant of god fr. michael macgivney, blessed miguel pro...we used to have heroic priests even in our times.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLR-rJYPlQo

how 180 was fr. capodanno.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5001094&forum_id=2#43733870)

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5001094&forum_id=2#43733965)

and he's 180.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5001094&forum_id=2#43733873)

Ephesians 2:8-9

Don’t cite some other verse without first reconciling this with your view (or admit your belief that the Bible contradicts itself). Once you do that I will respond to any verse you cite.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5001094&forum_id=2#43734151)

Council of Trent

4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified[a] by the law; you have fallen away from grace.

Galatians 5:4

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5001094&forum_id=2#43734192)

I’ve been taught as a Catholic that good works come from recognizing that you are broken and cannot be righteous except through the grace of god obtained through faith. Continuing to perform good works thereafter only preserves and increases that grace. This seems consistent with Trent and the stuff you are quoting

Why do you say it’s inconsistent?

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5001094&forum_id=2#43734974)

What in any event is so problematic about saying faith is necessary for works, and the works one continues to commit after that leap of faith continue to justify ones faith? Surely you would concede the souls of saints are better off than the soul of GayPumo, who though justified by faith, poasts on XO and probably hasn’t engaged in a fraction of the works as the holiest Christians

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5001094&forum_id=2#43735141)

James refers to living faith vs dead faith. Real faith leads one down the process of sanctification, so good works follow. But these good works have nothing to do with earning or preserving salvation or justification.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5001094&forum_id=2#43735171)

I do feel very very strongly though that your position (the protestant position) led to the utter failure of the enlightenment project to provide a rational justification for morality, and is therefore a large cause of the sorry state of affairs we find ourselves in today (complete lack of a coherent moral framework, hyper-secularization, etc.). Before condemning catholics to hell perhaps a bit of self reflection (beyond mere Bible thumping) would go a long way

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5001094&forum_id=2#43735210)

Once you see that it is a process, you can comprehend the nuance behind Catholic teaching.

We do not earn our initial justification (baptism), but we can choose to bring ourselves closer to God or turn away from him based on our free will and works.

Your soteriology fails to be able to adequately explain the theological underpinnings of a faithful Christian man, who decides one day to cheat on his wife and marry his mistress and subsequently die of a drug overdose. You can't articulate what happened to his justification/salvation without some asinine statement like "well he must've not been justified to begin with!".

In contrast, the Catholic can explain this because if you see justification as a process, it all comes together.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5001094&forum_id=2#43734345)

I don’t like attempts to use the terms justification and sanctification in a super technical manner because of the heavy (reformation-driven) theological baggage they carry, but just sayin.

I prefer the naive formulation: we have been saved, we are being saved, we will be saved.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5001094&forum_id=2#43734392)

16 yet we know that na person is not justified2 by works of the law obut through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, pbecause by works of the law no one will be justified.

Galatians 2:16

Tell me how I am misreading this verse.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5001094&forum_id=2#43734716)

(two major issues here are whether “works of the law” means Torah observance specifically, which contextually Paul is surely talking at least about that in his rant against Peter’s Jewry, or more generally means “works righteousness” in the more traditional Lutheran/Reformed vein; and whether Paul is talking about faith in Christ or the faithfulness of Christ, because either reading is possible)

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5001094&forum_id=2#43734742)

Being more Christlike is the process of sanctification and is a completely separate thing.

So I don’t have any ambiguity about what justification means not about how it is accomplished, i.e. faith alone.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5001094&forum_id=2#43735066)

but I think here you’re importing a series of loaded protestant theological concepts into the text. imputation? justification vs sanctification?—good luck showing me where Paul talks about all that in your passages ITT.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5001094&forum_id=2#43735101)

Romans 3:21-22

2 Corinthians 5:21

Justification/Sanctification:

No one verse spells out the difference but Romans 8:29-30 makes clear they are separate things.

Many Catholics are Christians but that is inspite of and not because of the catholic church’s official doctrinal positions. I hope you are one of them, brother.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5001094&forum_id=2#43735158)

The Greek Orthodox Church has certainly been affected by such scandals, as the headlines of national newspapers and Internet websites will attest. The National Herald reported recently that that "the Holy Synod [of the Orthodox Church] is preparing to discuss old sexual scandals that have reemerged, according to high-ranking ecclesiastical officials at the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America. Individuals have already contacted the archdiocese asking for monetary compensation in [the] millions of dollars."

The National Herald also carried (April 27-28, 2002, front-page headline) another article titled, "Greek Priest Arrested on Charges of Sexual Assault." Authorities had arrested Pangratios Vrionis, Orthodox bishop of Ss. Fanourios and Gerasimos in Woodside, New York. The accused was an independent bishop who had in recent years established his own church and was no longer part of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America. On March 26, 2002, the New York Post ran a story ("Greek Bishop in Queens Admitted Kid Sex in '70" by John Lehmann and Dan Morgan) on a previous child molestation case involving the same priest in the late 1960's in Pennsylvania, where he served at the Holy Trinity Greek Orthodox Church in Harrisburg. According to the article, "Vrionis pleaded guilty to sodomizing and corrupting the morals of two fourteen-year-old boys and was sentenced to twenty-three months probation. In 1970, immediately following his sentencing, the Ecumenical Patriarchate and the Archdiocese of North and South America defrocked Vrionis."

The Orthodox Church of America (OCA), a separate entity from the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, has had its share of scandalous abuses. Greta Larson of California, whose own children were molested by a monk of the OCA in California, created a website, "Protection of the Theotokos: A Site for Victims of Abuse in the Orthodox Church," several years ago to publicize abuses by Orthodox priests and clergy (http://www.pokrov.org). Larson gathers and posts all instances of Orthodox abuse worldwide, citing a need to monitor fringe Orthodox groups that are uncanonical and to develop a clearinghouse for information about abusers who frequently cross ecclesiastical jurisdictional lines to avoid detection and punishment.

Unfortunately, sexual predators exist in every profession. In most corporations, educational institutions, and youth programs, strict policies regarding allegations of sexual misconduct and abuse -- to whom and how such allegations should be reported -- exist in written form. According to the findings of a national survey conducted by the Christian Ministry Resources, a tax and legal-advice publisher serving more than 75,000 congregations and 1,000 denominational agencies nationwide, clergy are not the major offenders. Volunteers, not clergy or paid staff, statistically committed the greatest number of offences. And even more shocking is the revelation that 25 percent of the offenders were other children involved in church activities, underscoring the need for greater accountability, for altering the way that children are supervised, and the process of screening staff, volunteers, and clergy.

A number of Churches in other denominations have even begun criminal background checks, finger printing, requiring the completion of detailed questionnaires, and the development of careful policies. In the Christian Science Monitor online article, "Sex Abuse Spans Spectrum of Churches," (April 5, 2002 -- http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0405/p01s01-ussc.html) staff writer Mark Clayton quotes the executive pastor, Gary Maitha, of Grace Community Church in Tempe, Arizona, as saying that their congregation, with weekly attendance at Sunday School of over 700 children, never permits children and adults to interact one-on-one, in line with their strict policies designed to thwart sexual abuse. "We have fingerprinting and a criminal background check for anyone over age 18 that works with children," says the pastor. "If it comes back with a blemish, they are not working with kids. That's all there is to it." The community's children have already benefited from the new procedures since one individual with a history of child molestation had applied for a position and been denied.

Nevertheless, the benefits carry beyond the immediate welfare of the children of the parish. Insurance companies increasingly are setting stricter sex-abuse policy requirements as a prerequisite for coverage and to protect against lawsuits and false accusations. And some companies, according to the same Christian Science Monitor article, "were dropping coverage of churches without screening policies."

Although the Roman Catholic Church has been shaken recently by the deluge of sexual misconduct revelations, the percentage of the total number of Christian churches made up by the Catholic parishes is only 5 percent. The largest number of parishes belong to the Protestant denomination, against whose church members and clergy the largest number of allegations belong -- a hefty 70 percent. Since the early 1990's, church leaders of all denominations have been taking steps to address sexual abuse. In 1992, the leaders of more than 100 Christian denominations met in Chicago to discuss how to deal with child sex abuse. However, in the wake of the Catholic scandals, many have been redoubling their efforts.

We at Hellenic Communication Service feel that the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America should be proactive and require background checks for all priests before ordination, as well as for all new staff and volunteers of the Church who work with children. In this way, we can protect our fellow congregants and our Church from some of the sensational abuses making daily headlines.

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5001094&forum_id=2#43734149)

Everything I’ve seen suggests it’s about the same rate across denominations. Tho I agree that it’s a homo problem and am therefore sympathetic to the argument that the Catholic Church may be more likely to attract pedos becuase it’s probably more likely to attract homos in the past 100 years

Tho I’m not sure the numbers bear that out. Moreover I think the main reason most people think it’s a uniquely Catholic problem is the way the church handled it in certain instances, which is deserving of scorn. Also because the church is far more powerful and influential than the Orthodox Church, and hence the subject of far more criticism

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5001094&forum_id=2#43734470)

disagree that it’s about abuse (though I think it’s foolish to pretend there’s literally no link) but, particularly as a pastoral matter, it’s hard to see how an entirely celibate clergy can minister as effectively to the eternal struggle that is married man vs his wife

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5001094&forum_id=2#43734039)

I have no doubt that many celibate priests are more qualified than many married secular psychologists and therapists to minister to people struggling with marriage issues

(http://www.autoadmit.com/thread.php?thread_id=5001094&forum_id=2#43734488)